It's dead, Jim.

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #275 on: October 21, 2011, 02:17:11 AM
Well, there's an explanation for EVERYTHING, and MLP is just one of those things that appeased to nearly everyone, as they had a gun pointed to their heads by the fans.

Yeah, but it gives capcom some time to look back on those and go the Sonic route, as many of those were a slightly risky chance at trying something new.
The reason MLP is so successful, is because it's one of the only franchises whose characters actually act like normal, intelligent beings. Few cute videogame franchises have even managed to do that. Heck, the only one that comes to mind is probably Jak & Daxter (nope, both Sly and Ratchet are either too comedy, or too classic-pastiche.) Mario and Sonic will probably never have a single game where they treat kids like normal human beings instead of children who are watching a story for the first time.

Also, it would have given Capcom a way to go the Sonic route if those games weren't just gambles from a far-gone age, and if Capcom wasn't so reticent to change anything in the GOOD WAY nowadays.



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Reply #276 on: October 21, 2011, 03:50:50 AM
The reason MLP is so successful, is because it's one of the only franchises whose characters actually act like normal, intelligent (?) beings. Few videogame franchises have even managed to do that.

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #277 on: October 21, 2011, 04:00:41 AM
The reason MLP is so successful, is because it's one of the only franchises whose characters actually act like normal, intelligent beings. Few cute videogame franchises have even managed to do that. Heck, the only one that comes to mind is probably Jak & Daxter (nope, both Sly and Ratchet are either too comedy, or too classic-pastiche.) Mario and Sonic will probably never have a single game where they treat kids like normal human beings instead of children who are watching a story for the first time.
Mario has so little dialogue that I don't think he's really applicable to that comment (besides maybe the fact that he's no longer allowed to use an axe to destroy a bridge).  As for Sonic, I'll stick to the usual "Adventure 2 was golden" footnote.  There was some great dialogue in that game.

I'd also say that plenty of "grimdark" games/characters either lack intelligence or fail to treat their audience as normal humans.

In terms of how it treats its audience, Mega Man can be all kinds of sloppy and silly, but outside of Zero1's localization I don't recall it ever being patronizing.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #278 on: October 21, 2011, 04:13:17 AM
Quote
I'd also say that plenty of "grimdark" games/characters either lack intelligence or fail to treat their audience as normal humans.

I second this (Cataclysm, blech). And I figured MMZ already went down the grimdark route (at least in relation to the other series).

Given a certain other Capcom reboot, though, I don't want them to reboot MM at all. Given all the sub-series, they could just make a new one. (Though that runs the risk of continuity-mucking...)



Offline Flame

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Reply #279 on: October 21, 2011, 04:22:08 AM
I saw it, Prower. Just didnt say anything because I already saw it on prototdude's site.
Plus Objection's post pretty much sums up my reaction.

TBH Inafune joining the fight is pretty worthy front page news if you ask me.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #280 on: October 21, 2011, 04:56:34 AM
As for Sonic, I'll stick to the usual "Adventure 2 was golden" footnote.  There was some great dialogue in that game.
PPPPPPPPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

In relation to other INCREDIBLY corny and seriously derangedly retarded dialogue that other games usually seem to have... yes, it was decent. But it had few examples. While the rest was completely forced and really bad. Overexposition for kids, no interesting exchanges except for the Shadow/Rouge dialogue, and while some characters show little about what's happening while relying on simple events to follow it, others go "AMY IS WITH EGGMAN. I MUST RESCUE AMY. BECAUSE SHE IS IN DANGER. BECAUSE EGGMAN IS EVIL. GET IT KIDS?" Pretty much everyone behaves as if they were meeting for the first time, the awkward pauses and the crazy [parasitic bomb] that happens in certain parts of the dialogue is unforgivable.

But yes, it IS standard for videogame dialogue to be cringeworthy most of the time. The way I'm comparing it to MLP, is because MLP characters actually act like normal individuals. While Sonic, Mario and many other characters act like they're reading from a damn script, trying to act out a very badly-paid play written by high schooler fan fiction artists.

Let's compare some stuff:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4V5pKF7gyM&feature=related[/youtube]
Repetitious exposition, characters seeming like they want to show every single detail several times so that kiddies won't miss it, and don't leave any kind of logic to the people watching it. They address the audience, not each other. They are telling a story instead of talking.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD97UvLnluk&feature=related[/youtube]
See, here, you got JUST enough exposition without seeming like they're talking to the audience, plus, it's incorporated INTO the dialogue. They speak to the characters, and tell them what they need to know, while revealing their personalities and quirks and not devolving into simply exposition mouths.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJ3gghVtVs[/youtube]
In comparison, this scene would be "WHY ARE YOU ACTING CRAZY AND NONSENSICAL WHEN YOU SEE THAT I AM SUFFERING IMMEDIATE DANGER FROM THIS FLOCK OF CREATURES PINKIE PIE? I AM RARITY AND I AM IN DANGER"



Offline Rin

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Reply #281 on: October 21, 2011, 01:38:57 PM
Please tell me that someone other that OBJECTION MAN looked at my post...
RPM, please stop ignoring me... I'm not like that little [parasitic bomb] I was from years back.


It seems you're craving for some attention.
Unfortunately, you posting those images of the Touhoes, with badly put in captions on them doesn't help your cause.

Anyway.

This is really moving and all. That the fans can go so far for a sequel to a game.
On the other hand though, you just have to understand this is a lost cause. Whatever are the reasons for its cancellation REALLY were, it is no use trying to change what has happened. Capcom are really dicks right now, who focus mostly on Street Fighter. For now, I'm just waiting for them to [tornado fang]ing cancel Rockman Online at the last minute. Though it might be just me being a bit too paranoid.

Oh and lastly...

[spoiler][/spoiler]




Offline Align

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Reply #282 on: October 21, 2011, 11:22:03 PM
We don't have anything against cheerful personalities, just excessive fanwank. Just be yourself, minus all the chattiness about your favourite subject (outside of threads about that subject, anyway), and you'll slowly grow into the community.

EDIT: Oh, and image replies? Don't. This isn't an image board, you're expected to have content in your posts. At the same time, if you make a thread with your creations in the appropriate forum section, that's fine.



Offline Flame

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Reply #283 on: October 21, 2011, 11:27:57 PM
We all remember how it went with Thanatos and his excessive Gurren Lagann quoting and such. Nice guy, but too much fanwank landed him a kick out the door.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Rin

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Reply #284 on: October 21, 2011, 11:52:54 PM
I... I don't get it guys. He posted that image about butthurt, but... was he implying that I AM butthurt?
Because I wasn't butthurt... not even close to it.
It's like... like, he was posting this image about himself. Because he's the one who seems butthurt (andcravingforattention).

In any case, I'm out of here because it's enough of a derailment as it is. : P



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #285 on: October 22, 2011, 12:59:26 AM
Please tell me that someone other that OBJECTION MAN looked at my post...
RPM, please stop ignoring me... I'm not like that little [parasitic bomb] I was from years back.


I did, and it was sweet news, I just don't drool over Inafune as much as the rest of the internet, 'nor did I have anything significant to add.

*stuff*
I guess I should have clarified and said that SA2 covers both ends of the spectrum (but then, who needs to be told when they're supposed to [sonic slicer] about Sonic?).  Sonic and Eggman have some pretty great dialogue, but there are a lot of cringe-worthy lines from the likes of Tails and Amy.

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #286 on: October 22, 2011, 02:23:50 AM
I guess I should have clarified and said that SA2 covers both ends of the spectrum (but then, who needs to be told when they're supposed to [sonic slicer] about Sonic?).  Sonic and Eggman have some pretty great dialogue, but there are a lot of cringe-worthy lines from the likes of Tails and Amy.
A few characters have decent dialogue. Rouge, for example, seems to have good lines overall, even though she probably has the least amount of speaking lines out of the entire cast. But it's a big difference between it and the rest of the entire game.

Surprisingly, the dialogue picks up a bit in the last story and it turns out passable.

...my problem with your comparison, was that you compared it (SA2 being one of my favorite games of all time, believe me, I have nothing but praise for it for the right reasons) to one of the greatest examples of writing in a kids' show that I have ever seen in my life. Sonic Adventure 2 may be good in an industry where most japanese games are given incredibly cringe-worthy dialogue I find unfitting to any culture, but compared to MLP, where comedy coexists with good characterization and really good behavior and dialogue from characters, it's [parasitic bomb]. Because in SA2, I don't really see any of the character's personalities beyond their onedimentionality, and the stuff they say when it's necessary. In MLP, I see the purpose each character fulfills, as well as them having their own place and influence in the world around them. I am able to find a well-weaved narrative and realistic characters in a god damn girls' show about pink magical ponies.



Offline Waifu

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Reply #287 on: October 22, 2011, 03:36:13 AM
Thta must be why pony fans love it so much, the writing is actually good and the characterization is strong not that I actually want to be a pony fan. 



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #288 on: October 22, 2011, 04:24:41 AM
A few characters have decent dialogue. Rouge, for example, seems to have good lines overall, even though she probably has the least amount of speaking lines out of the entire cast. But it's a big difference between it and the rest of the entire game.

Surprisingly, the dialogue picks up a bit in the last story and it turns out passable.

...my problem with your comparison, was that you compared it (SA2 being one of my favorite games of all time, believe me, I have nothing but praise for it for the right reasons) to one of the greatest examples of writing in a kids' show that I have ever seen in my life. Sonic Adventure 2 may be good in an industry where most japanese games are given incredibly cringe-worthy dialogue I find unfitting to any culture, but compared to MLP, where comedy coexists with good characterization and really good behavior and dialogue from characters, it's [parasitic bomb]. Because in SA2, I don't really see any of the character's personalities beyond their onedimentionality, and the stuff they say when it's necessary. In MLP, I see the purpose each character fulfills, as well as them having their own place and influence in the world around them. I am able to find a well-weaved narrative and realistic characters in a god damn girls' show about pink magical ponies.
I never made any such comparison to My Little Poly.  You did.  I repeated your adjectives in terms of character behavior (and yeah, I really need to exclude Tails and Amy from that thought), that doesn't mean I consider SA2's narrative comparable to MLP's on the whole.  Admittedly, I've seen only the first episode of MLP, but comparing a game story to a TV series story is a bit of an uphill battle anyway, seeings how a video game narrative generally does not carry the same weight as a television narrative.  For that reason I would prefer to keep discussions of video game story quality within the context of video games.

You know, we got to that discussion on the grounds of justifying how cute-and-cuddly atmospheres can trounce the dark/gritty ones.  But really, Mega Man Legends in and of itself is one of the first and best examples I would think of in terms of intelligent video game characters that talk to each other and not their audience.  Even something as trivial as a boss's weak point can lead to some amusing lines in those games (case in point: Marlwolf).

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #289 on: October 22, 2011, 11:00:25 AM
I never made any such comparison to My Little Poly.  You did.  I repeated your adjectives in terms of character behavior (and yeah, I really need to exclude Tails and Amy from that thought), that doesn't mean I consider SA2's narrative comparable to MLP's on the whole.  Admittedly, I've seen only the first episode of MLP, but comparing a game story to a TV series story is a bit of an uphill battle anyway, seeings how a video game narrative generally does not carry the same weight as a television narrative.  For that reason I would prefer to keep discussions of video game story quality within the context of video games.

You know, we got to that discussion on the grounds of justifying how cute-and-cuddly atmospheres can trounce the dark/gritty ones.  But really, Mega Man Legends in and of itself is one of the first and best examples I would think of in terms of intelligent video game characters that talk to each other and not their audience.  Even something as trivial as a boss's weak point can lead to some amusing lines in those games (case in point: Marlwolf).
I was using it as the general basis for maturity, realism and overall personality in terms of gaming, after it was the only subject used. By following up the post and justifying the two franchises, you're undoubtly making the same comparison.

My problem with video game narrative, is how bad it can be if you stray far off from recent times, and even so, there are some recent VERY heavy examples of awful story. Not only that, but voices can be bad, there are awkward pauses, the camera angles are weird and the story and dialogue can be quite horrible sometimes. Aside from Hideo Kojima, there are few japanese developers who are as cinematically experient, sadly.

I would honestly compare Legends' plot and dialogue to a typical kids' anime. There's quite alot of exposition, tons of it actually, but there's quite a few character moments as well. It's far from anyone acting realistically, but it's a start.

I wish gaming narratives had higher standards. When I look at what's probably the best story in a game saga, Legacy of Kain, I see tons of exposition, but never unjustified. It's all wrapped in tightly with the plot, and the dialogue is extremely good. Amazing even, because all of it is relevant. You won't find any kind of "villain mocking and monologuing" moments by using the same "patheti~c!" adjectives we all know. Nor is there anyone simply acting like they're too cool for school by trying to be deep. All things have a purpose, and the expository opening for any new players does a fine job of bringing everyone up to speed, as well as being awesome. Amy Hennig is a genius.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNo-hfY-hKg&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #290 on: October 22, 2011, 03:26:12 PM
I would honestly compare Legends' plot and dialogue to a typical kids' anime. There's quite alot of exposition, tons of it actually, but there's quite a few character moments as well. It's far from anyone acting realistically, but it's a start.
I saw nothing in your Jak & Daxter video that was any better.  Even being unfamiliar with the game the exposition is still very obvious.  Legends generally does a better job than that of letting the characters be who they are.  And the Bonnes are about as three-dimensional as villains get, balancing their survival, their pride, and oddly enough their moral compass, thoughout most of the games, especially Legends 2.

In the series, Misadventures is probably the most guilty of excessive exposition, due to the majority of the game being about coming up with ransom money.

Gaming narratives are a whole other beast than TV/movies in that part of their inherent role is justifying the game's structure, or at the very possibly least keeping an appropriate pace with it.  And inevitably there's always something in game structure that flies in the face of what a solid narrative-for-the-sake-of-narrative should be.  If the narrative fails to tie to the gameplay properly, the game comes off as anticlimactic (case in point: Metroid Other M).

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #291 on: October 22, 2011, 10:04:27 PM
I saw nothing in your Jak & Daxter video that was any better.  Even being unfamiliar with the game the exposition is still very obvious.  Legends generally does a better job than that of letting the characters be who they are.  And the Bonnes are about as three-dimensional as villains get, balancing their survival, their pride, and oddly enough their moral compass, thoughout most of the games, especially Legends 2.

In the series, Misadventures is probably the most guilty of excessive exposition, due to the majority of the game being about coming up with ransom money.

Gaming narratives are a whole other beast than TV/movies in that part of their inherent role is justifying the game's structure, or at the very possibly least keeping an appropriate pace with it.  And inevitably there's always something in game structure that flies in the face of what a solid narrative-for-the-sake-of-narrative should be.  If the narrative fails to tie to the gameplay properly, the game comes off as anticlimactic (case in point: Metroid Other M).
Nope. Honestly, Jak & Daxter games have the quality of being as three-dimensional as they can get, with a kind of story that never strays too far away from a typical narrative, but characters keep building upon their personality and talk as anyone else would in their situation. While Legends never gets any better than say... a Digimon anime. I dunno if it's the translation's fault, or the fact that it's an old game, but it sounds as cookie-cutter and linear as it can be, and Tron's just the typical tsundere anime girl character. They just... stand there and fit stereotypes, and spit out the same old tired anime dialogue we see in every anime ever. It's not bad, it's just derivative, the same as every other game out there, and it's not INTERESTING.

It's a trend in games. In any other kind of media, that type of story just wouldn't be recognized as anything amazing. And it's not about being different beasts, it's about a story being able to fit the game well. It's about writers recognizing that they have to work with the programmers, the same way movie writers work with the directors. They have to know what kind of storyy to write, in what structure and in what way. If you look at a story like Portal, you'll see an AMAZING narrative that fits the genre perfectly. Same with Deus Ex, for example, or Alan Wake. These are examples of story being a part of the game, and not just something to accompany the game. The story's made FOR the events of the game, and fits in perfectly with the gameplay mechanics.

In games like Sonic and Mario, story isn't necessary. It's an excuse to get you into the action. None of the scenarios even fit what should turn out in the story, so games that have little story to begin with benefit from it. Level design doesn't really accompany what should have been set in the story, and there's a clear distinction between the game world and what happens in the story.



Offline Zan

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Reply #292 on: October 23, 2011, 01:39:42 AM
I don´t think you quite get what Legends is and is meant to be. As derivative as you may consider it, it captures an undeniable light-hearted charm with immense underlying depth. The world of Legends is one of many facets, all seamlessly transitioned and perfectly integrated: from the soothing tranquility of the overworld to the oppressive atmosphere within the ruins, from the wacky comedic antics of the cast to the epic climax of the story. Very few other series, if any, have captured this like Legends did.



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Reply #293 on: October 23, 2011, 03:26:08 AM
I don´t think you quite get what Legends is and is meant to be. As derivative as you may consider it, it captures an undeniable light-hearted charm with immense underlying depth. The world of Legends is one of many facets, all seamlessly transitioned and perfectly integrated: from the soothing tranquility of the overworld to the oppressive atmosphere within the ruins, from the wacky comedic antics of the cast to the epic climax of the story. Very few other series, if any, have captured this like Legends did.
Yes, it is the greatest masterpiece ever composed by humanity, how could I forget?

It's a [tornado fang]ing 90s lighthearted anime for kids. Get over it. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's basic, and if you think it's an example of narrative genius, I feel sorry for you.



Offline Zan

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Reply #294 on: October 23, 2011, 03:56:20 AM
It´s not about being any sort of masterpiece of narration, it´s about being exactly what it is meant to be. A "90's lighthearted anime for kids," ok, I wouldn't want it any other way.  Being "basic" is not a fault here, it's a charm.



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Reply #295 on: October 23, 2011, 05:26:33 AM
Very much agreed.  This discussion seems to keep jumping back and forth on what grounds we're gauging a story by.  Is it an epic masterpiece?   Are its characters intelligent?  Are its characters free from stereotype?  Those are three completely different questions.

My Little Pony has intelligent characters.  Its story is not an epic masterpiece, nor is it meant to be by any means.  Many of its character types exist in countless shows/stories; that doesn't matter (tropes are tools), what matters is that MLP does them well.

So Tron Bonne is a tsundere, so what?  Why shouldn't she be, how else is a teenage pirate going to handle a crush on the hero?  Besides, that's not her defining characteristic; her loyalty to her brothers supersedes her feelings for Trigger (seen very clearly in L1 when the Gesselschaft is destroyed).

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Reply #296 on: October 23, 2011, 10:27:36 AM
It´s not about being any sort of masterpiece of narration, it´s about being exactly what it is meant to be. A "90's lighthearted anime for kids," ok, I wouldn't want it any other way.  Being "basic" is not a fault here, it's a charm.
The way you described it as, and the words you used, made it the most stuck-up description of a game I have ever seen in my life. It's a lighthearted anime game. Japan churns out tons of them a year. Story-wise and ambient-wise, it's got hundreds of the same JRPG characteristics you've seen in many, many other games. Even with the obligatory "I don't love you baka!" and shower scene peek stereotypes.

Very much agreed.  This discussion seems to keep jumping back and forth on what grounds we're gauging a story by.  Is it an epic masterpiece?   Are its characters intelligent?  Are its characters free from stereotype?  Those are three completely different questions.

My Little Pony has intelligent characters.  Its story is not an epic masterpiece, nor is it meant to be by any means.  Many of its character types exist in countless shows/stories; that doesn't matter (tropes are tools), what matters is that MLP does them well.

So Tron Bonne is a tsundere, so what?  Why shouldn't she be, how else is a teenage pirate going to handle a crush on the hero?  Besides, that's not her defining characteristic; her loyalty to her brothers supersedes her feelings for Trigger (seen very clearly in L1 when the Gesselschaft is destroyed).
My point is completely different. Listen next time. Stereotypes and intelligence notwithstanding, I'm talking about simple narrative, dialogue and characterization. IN MLP, each character has to be stuck with a single liking/characteristic, as per the series' concept. But that doesn't make them any less limited. They talk normally and like any other person would. Something that is very tough to achieve with any other kids' show, specially one of that kind.

And tropes are not building blocks. They're characteristics of common shows that people started noticing, and started including as a list. There are good ways to use characteristics commonly used in stories and there are bad ways to use them. MLP's characters are founded in stereotypes, but they actually grow from that, and are given new development in almost every episode. Legends is a JRPG in terms of story. I've never said that was bad, but it's not the shining bright example everyone says it is. It's merely ANOTHER game in the endless waves of new japanese JRPGs every year.

(TV Tropes is mostly bullshit, with whiny kids arguing stuff that is a matter of perspective rather than a matter of actual fact. I've spent some time in it, and although we can list a "trope" as something factual, please don't use that site to get any kind of evidence other than people arguing that Count Chocula from the G1 cereal box was scarier, and crap like that. It's like manchild central in there.)



Offline Blackhook

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Reply #297 on: October 23, 2011, 10:35:40 AM
How long will you guys keep on with this?


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Reply #298 on: October 23, 2011, 01:33:28 PM
The forum's dead and there's nothing else to do. There's only so many times I can go back in time, give time machine blueprints to my younger self and then have anal before it becomes boring. So I argue with Mr Right Analogless there for fun.

Now I'm a go to my kitchen and make some delicious codfish balls.


Why? Because I'M BORED AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE! (movie/media buffs will get it)



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Reply #299 on: October 23, 2011, 05:08:40 PM
And tropes are not building blocks. They're characteristics of common shows that people started noticing, and started including as a list. There are good ways to use characteristics commonly used in stories and there are bad ways to use them.
You just repeated the exact same point that I supplied to you and reworded it to give the illusion of a counter.

MLP's characters are founded in stereotypes, but they actually grow from that, and are given new development in almost every episode. Legends is a JRPG in terms of story. I've never said that was bad, but it's not the shining bright example everyone says it is. It's merely ANOTHER game in the endless waves of new japanese JRPGs every year.
Your over-simplified analysis of Tron and your failure to defend it suggest that you're looking at Legends from a first-glance perspective.  From that same perspective, one cannot possibly defend MLP on the grounds that you have, as the strengths you have presented require a fairly intimate understanding of the show to notice, and the shaky/vague criticisms that you have presented against Legends could just as easily be applied to MLP from those who had only a limited understanding of it.

You're preaching what you know, and I can't fault you for that, but it's a clear reason that this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.



How long will you guys keep on with this?
Well, let's see...

IN MLP, each character has to be stuck with a single liking/characteristic, as per the series' concept.
...one of the greatest examples of writing in a kids' show that I have ever seen in my life.
it´s about being exactly what it is meant to be.

Nah, we're pretty much done.  What follows is just boredom.

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