Author Topic: The "gift" of mortality  (Read 10735 times)

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Offline Mirby

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2011, 05:26:02 AM »
It's been far too long since we've had a nice discussion like this.
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Offline Flame

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2011, 04:17:44 PM »
Indeed.
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Also, I really do think the death animation being the same between human and Repliroid would be considerably awkward without a complete replacement of their flesh bodies with machine....
Its a kids game. One with a much lighter tone than the Zero series. They arent about to show a Human's guts all over.

Not to mention the staple Mega Man death animation used in every game is more just that, a staple. Something thats just there because every other game has it. We are meant to assume ( I assume, lol) they just explode, or fall dead. Otherwise id like to know how upon death robots mysteriously turn into energy bubbles.
it certainly would help with cleanup!
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2011, 04:21:22 PM »
Whilst going tiun tiun tiun...

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2011, 06:09:50 PM »
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Its a kids game. One with a much lighter tone than the Zero series. They arent about to show a Human's guts all over.

They could have just animated it like in DASH.

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Offline Crunluath

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2013, 07:05:01 AM »
Hey guys, I'll just add my two cents. This below is all my conjecture and assumptions and such that I culled from my mind and the internet, such as the MMKB, and other places. A note is that I'm assuming that certain elements that were put in probably for gameplay sake is true to the way their world works, like being in Human form in the presumably frigid weather of Area F and not freezing to death.

Reploid and Human desires aside, as well as their inherent differences (Manufacture (which is sort of creepy in my mind), vs birth). I'm wondering about the fundamental differences.

Reploids are still made, created in factories. Not really sure if they're born as children and their bodies are either upgraded as time goes on, or a pseudo-biological material allows their bodies to mature like humans so. Their minds also seem to have limiters that force them to learn like humans do, Andrew from Zero mentions that reploid children went to school with human children, and were better at sports and faster at learning, thus saying that unlike a normal computer which would only require one instance of an event to learn it, their minds emulate a human's a require at least a few repetitions to nail down a topic (This is assuming that Reploid science is still fundamentally the same over the course of 300+ years). Some of this explains how Giro, being only 15~25, is mature like a human adult, perhaps Reploids are made with developed minds, or learn at a quicker pace. Another theory could be that Reploids are created with adult minds, but different bodies which they can modify appearance-wise whenever they want based on their desire, but still keep their age programming.
Since Reploids posses programming on par with human personalities, they're capable of falling in love and possibly sharing the same carnal desires humans do. I theorize that Reploids posses sexual organs and sexual programming to facilitate emotional equality with humans, however, it's not known if Reploids have reproductive qualities of any kind, though this is highly unlikely. Also, apparently when a new Reploid is activated, they're also given a life-span (I'm assuming ~150 years as being the norm) to give them mortality. Humans cannot have immortality without sacrificing their unique trait, which is ironically their natural mortality. The Sage Trinity being a prime example as they're technically not human any more. It is still up for grabs whether or not Reploids receive anything organic in terms of modification, such as living skin tissue for their faces or something. Just being made and given a timer on your life would just suck for the humans who go through much more modification to be made equal.

Humans are still born as naturals (Cedre who sells E-tanks in ZX mentions to Aile that "Your parents gave you life"), which means that instead of being gestated in test tubes with a parent's genetic material, the parents still retain human reproductive organs with human children being born of the female womb. This means that the male genitalia and female genitalia and womb is left unmodified. At a certain age, perhaps around the end of adolescence, humans are given mechanical components replacing certain parts of their bodies, with their flesh parts being stored (For what reason?) in the Legion HQ. These modifications seem to include ear plates, probably linked to the brain in some fashion, and a fitting black bodysuit (Ciel the human is seen with one on at all times in the Zero series) probably for protection and hygiene and likely being their new skin, which would aid in healing from wounds and temperature control, especially in extreme conditions (How Aile/Vent make it through Area F without freezing to death). However in artwork for the Hunter's Guild, there is one hunter with his arms skin-colored, indicating that the pigment of the suit can be changed, or certain parts of the body can be left uncovered. The ear-plates and possible partial cyberization of the brain with implants make humans susceptible to turning into Mavericks through manipulation and leaving them susceptible to hacking and electronic warfare (Which is why Chronoforce's hacking "Timebomb" ability works on Ashe who is human). With all of these modifications, while biologically human, the humans of this era are cyborgs by definition, though by this time it's probably safe to assume that "Human" doesn't mean what parts of you are still natural, but rather how you came to be; i.e. born vs. made. Part of me wonders how a fully mature human natural (No modification to body) would be viewed in that universe. Like if some fully grown, unmodified adult fell through time and appeared in the ZX timeframe.

Truly the lines between man and machine have blurred to almost nothing.

Okay, I think I made enough rambling exposition there. I'm curious about how far the humans have been mechanized aside from the suits and ear plates. Vent and Aile can use Sub Tanks to recover "health" and use biometals to augment their physical bodies. I theorize that the only parts of humans that are replaced are the limbs, part of the torso, and certain important bone structures, like the spine, ribs, and hips. The reason I say this is because looking at the megamerged forms of the Chosen ones, every part of their body is covered in armor except for the full torso, which only has a breast plate over the rib-cage and their abdominal areas being uncovered. A reinforced body would also explain why the hero characters don't die in one hit from any attack, Grey/Ashe survived Prometheus' scythe attack while sustaining major damage in their normal forms. Human for Ashe, "Squishy" reploid for Grey.

I assume that nano-technology comes into play here when healing wounds in battle with health-items. Something that human bodies are probably capable to using in tandem with their mechanical organs and bodysuits, and something Reploids can do anyway because of their mechanical nature.

In the end, humans receive partial machine-bodies, with their flesh parts being held in cold-storage instead of disposed of (I can see a lot of limbs neatly cauterized in massive tanks, really creepy, eh? And to think Legion keeps those in the BASEMENT!). These bodies give humans longer lives and greater durability than ever before. I have no idea what Master Thomas plans to do with human body parts and pre-New Law reploid data as stated in the ZXA secret ending (Maybe a giant flesh-being with an immortal mind?)

On to my beef with Prairie. She's stated to have lived at least 200 years (post-Ragnarok Incident), and still appears youthful. Now, the Zero/ZX series has always been bad with lifespans, so we don't know how long she'd lived before you see her as Alouette in Z1. I assume her to be an old-type Reploid, one dating to before the new laws were implemented. Now, if she did comply with the new laws (She apparently DOES have a red triangle on her forehead like all new reploids which to me looks like an inverted Resistance symbol that's found on their old berets), she would have to have been marked and possibly reprogrammed with a new life span. Actually, I forgot where I was going with this... Sorry. Maybe she just was exempted or escaped the laws that gave Reploids mortality and is technically "immortal?" Maybe all she did was paste on a red sticker?

Last but not least, Reploid manufacture. Since Reploids are supposed to be identical to humans, each one has to have a different personality. I theorize that Reploids are made rather seldomly, or in small batches. I suspect its because creating a unique "Personality Matrix" or coding a unique Reploid "DNA" sequence takes time, as does making a new body with the high-specifications that the laws probably require. It also helps with population control and having a being with a complex mind makes them less vulnerable to turning Maverick, as opposed to mechaniloids who have basic programming that is easy to control.

On the topic of dying, I don't thing blowing apart is normal, just put in for tradition sake. They probably die by collapsing like most things do when killed by gunfire. Notice that only Pseudoroids and other boss characters explode. Except for Kraft who just went *fzzzzt* *dead*.

Any one have any thoughts on the Human's modification? Or anything else related? Sorry, this was the most relevant thread for me to post in. I hope this made sense, I just typed this out at once and lost my train of thought a few times.

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Offline Spammy

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2013, 08:58:42 AM »
That's more then two cents. That's probably one of the most likely theories that I've ever read regarding the human modifications of the ZX series.

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Offline Flame

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2013, 10:24:55 AM »
Ciel is not a cybrog as far as the Zero series goes. Pre ZX when she was a Guradian, is much more likely, considering she was around 200 years after Zero 4.

Now just an idea, but aren't the Guardians a Government thing? I can see special Govt folks like leaders and such having longer lifespans than the average Human or Reploid.

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On the topic of dying, I don't thing blowing apart is normal, just put in for tradition sake. They probably die by collapsing like most things do when killed by gunfire. Notice that only Pseudoroids and other boss characters explode. Except for Kraft who just went *fzzzzt* *dead*.

I dunno. Aren't most Reploids powered by what is essentially a miniature Sun? It's a solar energy reactor, but I don't remember if it's ever detailed in well, greater detail. And either way, it is still a generator that converts solar to electric. if that thing goes sour, given the amount of juice Reploids probably run on, it could most certainly explode.
Ever seen a transformer explosion?


The Reploid power source does not seem to have changed in the hundreds of years since Light first stuck it in his robots, and X series robots exploded plenty. The grandeur and flashiness of the explosions are for show, because they HAVE to blow up, 9I recall the Big 4 blowing up in Z1 and 2 and then being fine right after- same for Copy X. But robots exploding when the wrong parts are broken wouldn't surprise me.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Saber

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2013, 12:20:02 PM »
I recall the Big 4 blowing up in Z1 and 2 and then being fine right after- same for Copy X.

Neither the Big 4 nor Copy-X explode when beaten. They simply collapse and go down to their knees. Only ones to explode are Phantom during the rematch (he selfdestructs) and Copy X MK-II (due to the boobytrap placed in him by Vile, triggered when activating his Armed Phenomenon).



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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2013, 02:27:59 PM »
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Ciel is not a cybrog as far as the Zero series goes.

I think it's a very real possibility that Ciel might have a partial machine body during Rockman Zero. The technology should already be available in that era.

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Now just an idea, but aren't the Guardians a Government thing? I

Dunno, even the Sage Trinity do not seem much aware of Guardian's movements.

The US ZX site once defined them as a "secret government organization." But that information cannot be confirmed ever again cause the non-Japanese branches of Capcom can't be bothered to keep these kind of sites up and running.


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Offline Flame

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2013, 05:19:38 PM »
But there's no precedent outside of Weil, to base that on, and Weil was a special case. I'm pretty sure something like that would have come up sooner in source material. What DOES come up is the fact that she was genetically modified and [parasitic bomb], and was essentially a super genius from birth. Nothing to suggest she is a cyborg or has any cyborg enhancement. As fast as the Zero series goes, being a "Cyborg" seems to be a big thing, as Weil is the only openly known one, and it's a plot point, since it's his reason for still being around.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2013, 05:46:22 PM »
I think it's a very real possibility that Ciel might have a partial machine body during Rockman Zero.
"[...] but we can see that Ciel looks very different as she was originally sketched as a half-machine, half-human character."

As compared to...?
The implication that Ciel is full human might be there but unfortunately, an implication is not fact.
I guess all I can really say is it isn't exactly what I'd expect out of a $4.4M game

It doesn't even have mouth animations

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2013, 12:30:42 AM »
Allow me to clarify.

During the Elf Wars cyborg technology is still rather crude. ZX's machine bodies, though, completely blur the line between men and machine. This supposed quantum leap has to come with about a century of gradual technological progression.

Ciel, unlike the humans from the Caravan, equips herself to great lengths with mechanical additions. Whether these are actual modifications to the human body or simply being something she wears, being a point of contention here. Undeniably, however, it is incredibly easy to confuse her for a Reploid. Zero himself had to be told of her humanity in the first game.

As such, I observe Ciel to augment herself with the 'eyes' of Reploids, the 'ears' of Reploids, the 'skin' of Reploids, and the 'feet' of Reploids. Several of these parts may connect with her human body to a greater extend than previously imagined. The ever increasing humanization of Reploids allows these elements to work well for both species alike.

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Offline Reaperoid

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2013, 11:05:42 AM »
I imagine there would other such parts aside from the visor, in her helm, then.
I guess all I can really say is it isn't exactly what I'd expect out of a $4.4M game

It doesn't even have mouth animations

Offline Saber

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2013, 11:50:34 AM »
Undeniably, however, it is incredibly easy to confuse her for a Reploid. Zero himself had to be told of her humanity in the first game.

Are you sure about that? I don't remember anything of that sort. What I do remember is that Zero was somewhat dumbfounded that Neige and the members of the Caravan were human, though.

As for Ciel, I never considered her to even partially be robotic. I actually never even had the impression she could be Repliroid at all. That is further reinforced by the fact that she needs to use a visor built into her helmet-thingy in order to see Cyberelves, which have been noted in ZX to not by visible to humans by the naked eye and can only be observed by Repliroids (most humans are not even aware of the existence of Cyberelves, even well into ZX).

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As such, I observe Ciel to augment herself with the 'eyes' of Reploids, the 'ears' of Reploids, the 'skin' of Reploids, and the 'feet' of Reploids.

You remember that artwork from PHYSIS set after the game, where the Resistance and the Caravan members are celebrating their working water pump? You can see Ciel there in a dress instead of her regular clothes and she has regular human ears as opposed to Repliroid ear shells.

Granted, Vile had regular looking ears, too, but with him, it seemed more like his flesh was gradually being replaced by machine parts via nanomachines due to his rejuvenation armor.



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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2013, 01:10:27 PM »
That is further reinforced by the fact that she needs to use a visor built into her helmet-thingy in order to see Cyberelves
Of which I can only recall her using at her lab.

I am otherwise uncertain, with the depiction of Ciel sans-visor alongside Cyber Elves for artistic purpose; I don't know the extent of Ciel's apparent "natural affinity" with Cyber Elves.
I guess all I can really say is it isn't exactly what I'd expect out of a $4.4M game

It doesn't even have mouth animations

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2013, 02:56:10 PM »
Quote
Are you sure about that? I don't remember anything of that sort. What I do remember is that Zero was somewhat dumbfounded that Neige and the members of the Caravan were human, though.

Z1
Alouette: To tell you the truth, Ciel is the only human in this base! Are you surprised?

Alouette's exclamation comes long after Ciel has told us the Resistance Base is a shelter for persecuted Reploids, speaking consistently in terms of "we" and "us". There is little indication that she might be human.

Z4
Zero: ... You're human?
Neige: Yes, we are. Are Humans outside of Neo Arcadia that rare?


By comparison, Zero quickly asserts Neige and the Caravan are human. Although he is quite surprised to see humans outside of Neo Arcadia, learning of Weil's regime answered that question.

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As for Ciel, I never considered her to even partially be robotic. I actually never even had the impression she could be Repliroid at all. That is further reinforced by the fact that she needs to use a visor built into her helmet-thingy in order to see Cyberelves,

Of course, this relies completely on how observant Zero and the player are. He has this whole memory problem, after all. If people did not catch it during Z1, her winter coat in Z3 expels all doubt.

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which have been noted in ZX to not by visible to humans by the naked eye and can only be observed by Repliroids (most humans are not even aware of the existence of Cyberelves, even well into ZX).

In all fairness, the Reploids aren't aware either. "People" aren't aware. Still, both Machine Body humans and Reploids could see them clearly. I agree though, Ciel's visor (like her winter coat) highlights her dominant humanity.

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You remember that artwork from PHYSIS set after the game, where the Resistance and the Caravan members are celebrating their working water pump? You can see Ciel there in a dress instead of her regular clothes and she has regular human ears as opposed to Repliroid ear shells.

While the ears and skin are usually indicators of humanity (the Caravan lacks either Reploid skin and Reploid ears), that same artwork from Vile's Incident displays a great many Resistance Reploids following Ciel's example. When Reploids and Humans dress alike it becomes neigh impossible to tell. Over all, I thus feel that the lines between Human and Reploid are already very blurred during the ZERO-series. Neither the inclusion or exclusion of select mechanical features confirm one over the other; they provide only an indication in either direction.

There does however seem to be some precedence for Reploids to augment themselves beyond the limitations of their humanoid forms, whereas most humans prefer a more natural appearance. As an exception to the rule, Ciel being a human scientist living among Reploids does not shy away from incorporating the fashion sense of Reploids into her daily life. By ZX's account, she'd more than welcome the wide-spread emergence of cybernetics to unite herself with her Reploid brethren.

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Offline Align

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2013, 07:10:21 PM »
Isn't Alouette's comment more about how humanlike the reploids are now?
So you wouldn't be able to tell Ciel is the only human.

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2013, 09:46:39 PM »
Isn't Alouette's comment more about how humanlike the reploids are now?
So you wouldn't be able to tell Ciel is the only human.

Except we've been told that this is a base for sheltered Reploids, nothing else.

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Offline Align

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2013, 11:34:31 PM »
Yes? That's why she is the only human, but it doesn't imply anything about her appearance relative to other humans.

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Re: The "gift" of mortality
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2013, 09:32:36 AM »
I always thought of Zero's surprise more along the lines of the fact he's amazed that 1) A human is living away from other humans (The only human we've seen in the X series is Cain), and 2) She's still alive in such a desolate place. Zero's reaction to the Caravan would be more like "Holy crap, Humans? Outside of Neo Arcadia? Surely you jest." I seem to remember from some source material that Ciel is a genetically modified human who was manipulated to have superior intellect in order to better aid humanity. Her ability to see cyber-elves could easily be explained as simply as implants for her eyes that allow her to "see" cyber-elf traces. Her helmet kit itself serves her more for a AR (Augmented Reality) interface that allows her to use computers more efficiently, and perhaps as a recognizable personal effect. As to whether or not she has cybernetic enhancements, I'd say probably not. As my previous theory said, I think that her body suit would provide ample protection against most anything, and her youthfulness and longevity could be attributed to genetic manipulation. Ciel's character wouldn't seem like the type to modify herself just to prolong her life, for what purpose would she do that and for what reason? I'm sure that Alouette could easily follow in Ciel's footsteps. If compared to human-type reploids of the X-era, the bodies of the new Zero-era ones are startlingly human. However, as Andrew in Z1 or Z2 (I forgot) said, Ciel modified his appearance in order for him to live happily with his human wife who was in old age at the time. In the end, I propose that Ciel is simply a genetically enhanced human who was modified either in gestation or in a lab (from her ancestor's genes) to have among other things: superior intellect (either in the form of increased brain functioning or modified-genetic predispositions), extended natural longevity (cell manipulation or NANOMACHINES, SON!), and sensory modification for cyber-elf interface.

Now, about how Reploids operate. If I recall, it's only old-model robots that ran on solar engines. Zero being one of them can operate indefinitely away from a power source due to that. I believe that new reploids (at least z-series) operate on E-crystals, which is some form of crystallized (duh), clean energy, much like a battery. This non-reactive operating system would explain why a lot of the reploid corpses you see scattered in the game (dead resistance from the Z1 chase, dead soldiers in the Z2 residential area raid) are still intact. There is probably an area, like the energy engine in reploids, that could make an explosion, but I'm sure with technology the way it is, those areas would be either non-reactive, or highly protected from rupture. I support the theory that bosses explode because tradition dictates, and in reality, they simply collapse (not very dramatic, huh?) and are later retrieved by Neo Arcadian salvage teams to be repaired (Which explains the rematches). If a boss just exploded and destroyed the body, it would be costly and time-consuming to rebuild a custom mutos-class reploid again from scratch. Back-up bodies seem unlikely since I'm sure Neo Arcadia just can't foresee their top ranked reploids getting bisected by some red colored hunk of junk (joke). So in the end, E-crystals have replaced costly internal reactors as the reploid's source of power. If it wasn't, then why would there even be an energy crisis in the Zero series?
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