Author Topic: The story of Rockman Online  (Read 23169 times)

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Offline Acid

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Mega Man Online gameplay
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2010, 01:58:27 PM »
Happy to see Scarface returning. He was friggin cool.

But the fact that this is a MMO, a Korean&Japan exclusive MMO on top of that, really sucks.

Posted on: November 18, 2010, 13:29:27
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/11/18/first-mega-man-online-video/

Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2010, 09:25:43 PM »
This is NOT the thread for Rockman Online news posts.

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I dont see why people actually still wonder that about X6+ all because the ZC timeline doesnt mention them. it doesnt mention X2-4 either, if I recall, and nobody questions them.

I wasn't so much thinking of their exclusion as I was thinking of the direct linking of Zero's sealing to the Nightmare Incident.

In Rockman Online, Zero actually acknowledged himself as a host, yet we hear no sign of his seal. That would certainly fit such notions. Furthermore, we always had some issues keeping XCM within "XX" years.

As such, the question I must raise... does X7+ Zero acknowledge himself as a host of the virus?

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I'm surprised at this validating the Z-Buster over Light's X1 capsule, though.  Leaving a "what if" scenario is one thing, but claiming that as the valid one makes it harder to sweep the similarity/compatibility issues under the rug.  I'm really having a hard time believing at this point that Wily and Light didn't put their heads together one last time during the development of X and Zero.

That would make me question why Zero believed it even would work.

I would chalk it up to "limitless evolutionary potential", the same technology used for his special weapons. That would make other Repliroids incapable of it, but Zero has seen it at work before, making him sure of its feasibility.

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However, while RMO is offering tons in the way of series backstory, the RMO-specific backstory is still a bit lacking.  The deal with Cinnamon getting visions of Neo Arcadia has me intrigued, as that's pretty much the main sign pointing towards the "alternate future" explanation (You could otherwise try to work this into line with the other series, but for them to be so familiar with X/Classic events without hearing of Neo Arcadia?).

One thing that interests me here is that they acknowledge Command Mission alongside Inticreates' scenario of host Zero and Sigma Virus' deletion by X to end the Irregular Wars, without inevitably leading into Rockman Zero. Apparently there's no real conflict between Command Mission and Inticreates' story with these basic details.

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We can't simply assume it was, say, X6 or X7.  It could just as easily be any later point in the timeline up until around Elf Wars.

Traditionally, we've only ever considered timeline splitting because of gameplay input leading to alternate endings. With X7 and beyond giving us little of that, it seems natural to focus on X6. Does it not?

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Further, in light of ZXA, I'd be reluctant to remove Axl outright from Zero-series continuity

The beauty of branching timelines compared to a completely different continuinity is that we can reason Axl and the Copy Chip would exist before the story splits ways, justifying ZX Advent even if a story like X7 never happened.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2010, 04:08:17 AM »
I wasn't so much thinking of their exclusion as I was thinking of the direct linking of Zero's sealing to the Nightmare Incident.

In Rockman Online, Zero actually acknowledged himself as a host, yet we hear no sign of his seal. That would certainly fit such notions. Furthermore, we always had some issues keeping XCM within "XX" years.

As such, the question I must raise... does X7+ Zero acknowledge himself as a host of the virus?
A highly questionable part of this, though, is how a split based in X6 would work.  The in-game continuity split of whether or not X locates Zero doesn't match the issues we're having between MMZ, XCM, and RMO.  Zero seals himself for an expected (may or may not be actual length) 102 years after being located by X, which can only fit with MMZ.  And he leaves for an unknown reason if X does not locate him.

Both roads could conceivably lead to MMZ but neither work without it; Zero needs to drop off the radar at some point in the storyline one way or the other.  MMZ's backstory is the only account of that happening.  It's definitely RMO's responsibility, then, to offer up some explanation.  Which I'm sure they intend to do if they're offering Cinnamon's visions of Neo Arcadia as a plot point prior to game release.

Bear in mind, with X6's Zero ending, the reason for displacing it from the rest of the game is two-fold.  One is, obviously, to make room for sequels.  But the other, which must not be overlooked, is that there is no lead-in concerning it among the game's other events.  The ending is extremely ambiguous and is not cross-referenced with any other X6 event, with the inverse also being true in that the ending itself makes no reference to Gate, Sigma, and the like.  Further, there is no event specific to X6 which identifies Zero as the virus host; if anything Zero's most significant information at that point in time would have come from X5, thus remaining constant across all possible forks of X6.  This is why I maintain, that the ZC timeline referencing the Nightmare as cause of this knowledge suggests that the incident was re-examined at a later point (X salvaging Gate's body certainly leaves a window open, research-wise, if nothing else).

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That would make me question why Zero believed it even would work.

I would chalk it up to "limitless evolutionary potential", the same technology used for his special weapons. That would make other Repliroids incapable of it, but Zero has seen it at work before, making him sure of its feasibility.
Between VWS and X's other armor parts, yes, Zero should be well aware of X's ability to assimilate the abilities of others.  This also conveniently dodges X and Zero comparing the Z-Buster and spiral-buster since in that fork they'd have never seen the latter.  BUT, I have to raise an eyebrow at the Z-Buster enabling charged special weapons.  That's not tech that Zero should have, which seemingly further implicates some crossover with Light during development.  There's also the fact that X's non-bustered arm responds to the upgrade, not typical of VWS weapons.

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One thing that interests me here is that they acknowledge Command Mission alongside Inticreates' scenario of host Zero and Sigma Virus' deletion by X to end the Irregular Wars, without inevitably leading into Rockman Zero. Apparently there's no real conflict between Command Mission and Inticreates' story with these basic details.
If we accept that at face value, then we're looking at the time-split being grounded at the pre-Elf Wars seal.  I don't think it can be much later than that unless we see a baddie copying Omega.

...it occurs to me, Omega's existence defies reality and ruptures the border with cyberspace where all the world is data.  He could very well be key to such reality warping as a branched universe making contact between the branches.  *PURE* speculation on my part, obviously, but it's fun to think about.

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Traditionally, we've only ever considered timeline splitting because of gameplay input leading to alternate endings. With X7 and beyond giving us little of that, it seems natural to focus on X6. Does it not?
See above.  X6's split does not mesh with the story details we have on the table.  In a MMZ-less continuity we have no account of Zero dropping off the radar, which is a necessity in both forks of X6.

There's also the fact that X7 foreshadows MMZ.  Unless we're to assume that Zero and Snipe Anteater have some lesser version of Cinnamon's visions, anyway.

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The beauty of branching timelines compared to a completely different continuinity is that we can reason Axl and the Copy Chip would exist before the story splits ways, justifying ZX Advent even if a story like X7 never happened.
Touche, such thoughts have occurred to me when brainstorming possible futures off of X5's alternate ending.

That said, while the tech certainly would progress and Axl most likely still existed in some form, Zero's presence was pretty key to putting Axl on the map, in terms of the history books.  While Albert pulling the Copy Chip tech is logical in any event, pulling Axl as the design/combat inspiration is a bit more iffy.

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Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2010, 08:08:13 PM »
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While Albert pulling the Copy Chip tech is logical in any event, pulling Axl as the design/combat inspiration is a bit more iffy.

Unless the resemblance to Axl is a complete and utter fluke, seeing how little ZX Advent adresses the matter.

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Which I'm sure they intend to do if they're offering Cinnamon's visions of Neo Arcadia as a plot point prior to game release.

What surprises me about those visions is that "centuries after X and Zero died", shouldn't that mean RO takes place during the alternate timeline equivalent of Legions, instead of Neo Arcadia? Neo Arcadia should have been blasted to smithereens 1XX years after Zero learned he was the host of the virus. I guess Cinnamon isn't having visions of the same year in this alternate reality.

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There's also the fact that X7 foreshadows MMZ.

"Is it memories of the future? Or false images of the past?"

That and Zero's ending. Perfect Memories did mention that something about him being in both the X-series AND the ZERO series would be revealed in X7. But we're still none the wiser...

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If we accept that at face value, then we're looking at the time-split being grounded at the pre-Elf Wars seal.  I don't think it can be much later than that unless we see a baddie copying Omega.

Well, Neo Arcadia isn't established until after the Elf Wars, so the Elf Wars themselves might have still happened. The last stated Inticreates event in RO is the end of the Irregular Wars. We just don't know how that end is achieved in this timeline. Maybe it all happened the same, maybe it all happened completely differently.

Interestingly enough, if we can confirm from the RO branch  that there are little to no deviations from the IntiCreates timeline until the Elf Wars begins or ends, we validate that both Command Mission and Rockman Zero happen in the same timeline, distancing Zero's ending from the rest of X6.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2010, 04:48:39 AM »
Interestingly enough, if we can confirm from the RO branch  that there are little to no deviations from the IntiCreates timeline until the Elf Wars begins or ends, we validate that both Command Mission and Rockman Zero happen in the same timeline, distancing Zero's ending from the rest of X6.
I don't think that's entirely true, given that XCM itself is a bit disconnected from the rest of the X-series (and being in the next century which caused a bit of MMZ-related confusion among the game's artists).  It's very well conceivable to fork during the X8-to-XCM gap.

On that note, one has to raise an eyebrow at RMO's use of Force Metal and continuing to acknowledge its possible side-effects.  This is something which showed tremendous promise and yet, presumably due to its dangers, is all but forgotten in Zero/ZX.  The older Energen crystals remain dominant despite their poorer performance, even during times of energy crisis when failure to explore other options leads to mass race-killings.

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Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2010, 01:36:29 PM »
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I don't think that's entirely true, given that XCM itself is a bit disconnected from the rest of the X-series (and being in the next century which caused a bit of MMZ-related confusion among the game's artists).  It's very well conceivable to fork during the X8-to-XCM gap.

What I meant is, that if RO acknowledges Zero's sealing, it shows us there is no contradiction between Zero being sealed and X7/8 happening. Making the timeline of X6>X7>X8>X6 Zero ending>Rockman Zero an entirely possible one.  And if we assume that, then X6>X7>X8>XCM>X6 Zero ending>Rockman Zero naturally follows as well, unless XCM occurs during Zero's sleep being interrupted. But first, we'd have to see if they indeed will acknowledge Zero's seal, cause thusfar they haven't.

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On that note, one has to raise an eyebrow at RMO's use of Force Metal and continuing to acknowledge its possible side-effects.  This is something which showed tremendous promise and yet, presumably due to its dangers, is all but forgotten in Zero/ZX.  The older Energen crystals remain dominant despite their poorer performance, even during times of energy crisis when failure to explore other options leads to mass race-killings.

Well, this and XCM always having been a "gaiden", does lend credit to a split before XCM. But as is we can't really disconnect XCM from X7 and X8. But we can disconnect X7 and X8 from X6's Zero Ending.

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See above.  X6's split does not mesh with the story details we have on the table.  In a MMZ-less continuity we have no account of Zero dropping off the radar, which is a necessity in both forks of X6.

In RO's premise, X and Zero are both dead. Without Neo Arcadia, we can't account for X's death either, yet it has happened. Certainly this relates to the way the Irregular Wars went differently. Likewise, we also inevitably have to drop Axl somewhere down the road.  So I wouldn't say Zero's sealing is much of a necessity here.

I do however agree that based on X7 and RO, we are given no reason as to why Zero would not seal himself away, despite knowing he's a host... If Zero indeed didn't seal himself prior to RO, what reason would he have?

Amusingly enough, X7 speaks of Axl changing destiny with his appearance, got to wonder how that relates.

Posted on: November 20, 2010, 03:05:42 PM
You know, I just remembered, didn't we see both Right and Wily in the first trailer, with some some sort of massive energy field going across the city? Perhaps that in itself is our reason for a timeline split; time travel from 20XX into this far flung future world? Depending on how that works out, it can either validate or invalidate X7+ toward Rockman Zero.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2010, 04:02:37 PM »
No telling what a shiny light over half the planet means, but yeah, I'm wondering what impact Light and Wily are going to have on this myself.  They were shown, they're pretty heavily referenced, they seem to be a big deal in terms of the game's story.

...for that matter, this could go a ways as to explaining the Classic characters' exclusion from player selection.  IF there are some time travel shenanigans going on, then maybe Rock, ProtoMan, and Bass are not DNA clones at all.

We've got some tough questions to answer either way.  If they're not clones, then why are Rock and ProtoMan duking it out?  If they are, then what was the point of cloning Roll?

Well, this and XCM always having been a "gaiden", does lend credit to a split before XCM. But as is we can't really disconnect XCM from X7 and X8. But we can disconnect X7 and X8 from X6's Zero Ending.
XCM *IS* disconnected from X8, though.  While there is a thematic Copy Chip/Evolution of Reploids similarity, there is no direct connection between Red Alert/Lumine/Sigma and XCM.  Further, Axl's own statements says that our "big three" have been apart for some time (also the Hunter Class changes), and XCM doesn't account for the usual supporting cast, leaving that aspect of the story wide open as well.  There's also a considerable amount of setup time necessary for a meteor which was never identified prior to 2202 to crash, and for R&D after the point to make the progress that it had, Giga City's creation and such.  A great deal of XCM's backstory is contained within 22XX, not merely the game's own events, thus distancing it from the main series that much more.

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In RO's premise, X and Zero are both dead. Without Neo Arcadia, we can't account for X's death either, yet it has happened. Certainly this relates to the way the Irregular Wars went differently. Likewise, we also inevitably have to drop Axl somewhere down the road.  So I wouldn't say Zero's sealing is much of a necessity here.
It's a matter of closure.  It's one thing to take a successful Hunter from a previous series and drop him "somewhere", simply because we're in a different era.  It's quite another to take a Hunter who was already stated to have removed himself from the story, and to never answer why.

For that matter, disappearance and death are not the same thing.  Zero is very much alive in the alternate X6 ending, and the main difference between that and the main ending is that he has "something" to take care of that is pulling him away from his duties as a Hunter.  This might seem a valid MMZ lead-in if the main ending hadn't shown us Zero's seal.  RMO CANNOT continue off of that without some further explanation, because it would have to establish how the X6 split is relevant to its respective events as opposed to MMZ's.

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Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2010, 04:25:22 PM »
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We've got some tough questions to answer either way.  If they're not clones, then why are Rock and ProtoMan duking it out?  If they are, then what was the point of cloning Roll?

Roll was cloned too? Did I miss a news post or something here?

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XCM *IS* disconnected from X8, though.  While there is a thematic Copy Chip/Evolution of Reploids similarity, there is no direct connection between Red Alert/Lumine/Sigma and XCM.  Further, Axl's own statements says that our "big three" have been apart for some time (also the Hunter Class changes), and XCM doesn't account for the usual supporting cast, leaving that aspect of the story wide open as well.  There's also a considerable amount of setup time necessary for a meteor which was never identified prior to 2202 to crash, and for R&D after the point to make the progress that it had, Giga City's creation and such.  A great deal of XCM's backstory is contained within 22XX, not merely the game's own events, thus distancing it from the main series that much more.

What I meant is that X7 to XCM are on itself a single story arc disconnected from X6. X6's story arc is instead continued in Rockman Zero. Likewise, X7 to XCM have no alternate endings; X6 was the last title to have them. Ofcourse, outside of X5, none of the previous alternate endings ever lead to the next game not happening.

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Zero is very much alive in the alternate X6 ending, and the main difference between that and the main ending is that he has "something" to take care of that is pulling him away from his duties as a Hunter.  

It could be taken to mean that he would indeed seal himself away, regardless if you found him or not. Alternatively, the Zero Nightmare is still on the loose, leading to a different future. With all that scene could imply, we really need more information about it...

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2010, 04:38:11 PM »
Roll was cloned too? Did I miss a news post or something here?
Roll was in the first anime trailer, distressed as she was separated from Rock in a crowd.  So, she is seemingly present in some capacity.  No further specifics are known.

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What I meant is that X7 to XCM are on itself a single story arc disconnected from X6. X6's story arc is instead continued in Rockman Zero. Likewise, X7 to XCM have no alternate endings; X6 was the last title to have them. Ofcourse, outside of X5, none of the previous alternate endings ever lead to the next game not happening.
Fair enough, I'm just saying that while X7 leads directly to X8, X8 does not directly lead to XCM.  X8 was released after XCM and leaves a lot of questions that still need to be answered before XCM can kick off.

I consider XCM about as much of the "Copy Chip" story arc as ZXA is: Yes there are recurring themes but they're pretty well distanced from each other.  The Copy Chip is mainly emphasized in XCM simply to justify Axl's presence; it's not the central focus that it was in X8.

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It could be taken to mean that he would indeed seal himself away, regardless if you found him or not.
That's what I'm leaning towards.  In such a case, both roads end at MMZ, so we're looking at more of a much larger version of the X2/X3 alternate scenarios.  Different means, same end.  Although granted, one can't help but be curious as to how X handling the remainder of the wars on his own goes, particularly during X7.

While we can certainly see how X7-XCM are relevant to RMO, I'm just not seeing how the X6 split, in and of itself, is.  Zero's ending does not allow writing X7-XCM out of MMZ's continuity unless we write it, ZXA, and X7's premonitions off as "just one of those things" in the same category as the Guardians witnessing Ragnarok.  That's a bit too much for me to simply "excuse" under some newly written alternate explanations; it makes Inticreates' storytelling look a lot more organized by comparison.

Whatever timeline split is relevant to RMO, I expect to be wholly covered in RMO's backstory.  Trying to make X6 it may seem to make sense in light of the pulled ZC website, but reconciling that with the whole of the X-series gets convoluted real fast.

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Alternatively, the Zero Nightmare is still on the loose, leading to a different future. With all that scene could imply, we really need more information about it...
Nightmare Zero may or may not have been toasted once the Nightmare Virus was destroyed, so that's pretty open (Capcom has always done a lousy job of explaining the defeat of viral enemies.).  Yeah, we could always use more info...

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Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2010, 05:41:40 PM »
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Roll was in the first anime trailer, distressed as she was separated from Rock in a crowd.  So, she is seemingly present in some capacity.  No further specifics are known.

Ah, I see. But that's kind of the same question as with the Navigators. Likewise, the trailers don't really acknowledge the clones. Perhaps all the originals were sent into this future world as well?

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Zero's ending does not allow writing X7-XCM out of MMZ's continuity unless we write it, ZXA, and X7's premonitions off as "just one of those things" in the same category as the Guardians witnessing Ragnarok.  That's a bit too much for me to simply "excuse" under some newly written alternate explanations; it makes Inticreates' storytelling look a lot more organized by comparison.

Could you elaborate what you mean here? I'm not sure I quite understand.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2010, 05:51:55 PM »
So now everybody loves branching timelines, eh? Too bad they don't work very well in RO's case.

Maintaining that there is a language barrier, but even so, the details of the past and present described for Rockman Online are simply bits and blends of everything else. Examining the details exposes several inconsistencies. Zero's Z-Saber is certainly poorly worded... or more likely, poorly thought out as an explanation to what we actually see in the X series. But it pales in comparison to the inconsistencies within X's workup.

Not only do they maintain that the X Buster uses plasma power (where it should be solar everywhere outside of the Plasma Charge Shot), but they also comment implying that the variable weapon system is nigh incomprehensible and unique, when not only Axl, but Duo in Power Fighters as well had demonstrated this same power (and ergo, his "types" should still have it).

One could say that since their understanding of history is from a standpoint from a hundred or more years after the fact, hereby confusing or blending some details of their own past. In that case there is leeway, but at the same time nothing of their version of history can be taken at face value for application with the other series anyway. And moreover, that should not be the case where technology is reproduced, as in cloning X's DNA shouldn't change his buster standard from solar to plasma. Plasma in this case is something even minor enemies like that camo-met are said to use, and it's probably the influence of the Ruby Spears cartoon and so on unto their regional expectations of terminology (everything is a "plasma shooter"). Like the intermingling of "Rockman," "Reploid" and "Humaroid" they are making a game for the Korean region based on Korean understanding and expectations, as well as their own imaginative direction. Their details align and conform for that purpose-applying the game characters and details they want to use. I believe they are not interested in being Japan-canon or any other region.

My conclusion? Rockman Online exists as its own distinct canon. It clearly takes things from the Rockman, X, and Zero series, but it does not work in reverse-nothing we learn from here applies to them. What we know of RO's past is only what we have been shown or told, and nothing else. If they intend a time-space cross-over or dilapidation, they will explain it that way through the course of their story. I would not have you stop speculating on where or why, but the fact is it's pretty much up to them and there will probably be no logical way to deduce what they will likely choose on their own whims. Nor will we be able to gather any but the broadest of details on timeline occurrence or character backstory from this--details we by and large already knew, or had a sense of but at the same time cannot confirm or deny based on RO's stance.

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As such, the question I must raise... does X7+ Zero acknowledge himself as a host of the virus?

This probably refers to Zero's rather irritatingly ambiguous dialogue with Layer in X8. People tend to see in that what they want.

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One thing that interests me here is that they acknowledge Command Mission alongside Inticreates' scenario of host Zero and Sigma Virus' deletion by X to end the Irregular Wars, without inevitably leading into Rockman Zero

Zero as the initial host of the virus was the X series' idea. Inti just complicated it by saying Zero was still actively spreading the virus the whole time-something that Rockman Online has yet to acknowledge. Or X7-onward for that matter. For the rest, if the good guys don't win, humans are in trouble. Subduing the Sigma virus in some way is the only way to have that peaceful future world. Not permanently, apparently, since the threat has now re-emerged. X (and probably his friends as well) conquering and vanquishing that evil is an easy way to transition into the story they want to tell. It's just a loose blueprint to a happy ending for the X series.

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What surprises me about those visions is that "centuries after X and Zero died", shouldn't that mean RO takes place during the alternate timeline equivalent of Legions, instead of Neo Arcadia? Neo Arcadia should have been blasted to smithereens 1XX years after Zero learned he was the host of the virus. I guess Cinnamon isn't having visions of the same year in this alternate reality.

The translations I read used "ages." What is an age? 30 years? 50 years? A hundred? A thousand? They probably don't want to clarify.

Whatever the intend to do with Neo Arcadia will be interesting and probably self-contained with its eventual explanation (and still won't be canon to Rockman Zero).

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Amusingly enough, X7 speaks of Axl changing destiny with his appearance, got to wonder how that relates.

On the one hand, probably nothing, since that was a fanciful translation that does not appear in the Japanese version. On the other hand, it'd be impossible to tell whether RO's creators are working from English-Korean translated source or Japanese-Korean translated source or both. So to say it had no bearing on their thought processes would be premature.

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You know, I just remembered, didn't we see both Right and Wily in the first trailer

Nevermind that, they were on the main rosters for the good group and the evil group respectively since the initial introduction. How ever their past selves, robotic selves or cloned selves will function in this game is a central puzzle piece that is still missing in all of this.

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On that note, one has to raise an eyebrow at RMO's use of Force Metal and continuing to acknowledge its possible side-effects.  This is something which showed tremendous promise and yet, presumably due to its dangers, is all but forgotten in Zero/ZX.  The older Energen crystals remain dominant despite their poorer performance, even during times of energy crisis when failure to explore other options leads to mass race-killings.

Thank you. This is more interesting than Zan's regurgitations of things I already said in our last several branching timeline/Model A discussions, and I think it could well be either that:
1. Cause and effect A - Force Metal use for reploids is forbidden due to the dangerous nature proven in CM.
2. Cause and effect B - Force Metal has already been used up due to its finite nature of coming from but one singular asteroid.
3. Branching effect - The meteoroid fell but in their timeline nobody ever studied it because they were too busy having Elf Wars.
4. Complete break - Force Metal does not exist in their timeline at all.

Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2010, 06:34:23 PM »
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Thank you. This is more interesting than Zan's regurgitations of things I already said

How come I'm sensing hostility from one such as you, who hasn't been around for a while? You've never before entered a discussion in such a manner.

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So now everybody loves branching timelines, eh? Too bad they don't work very well in RO's case.

I don't think there's any like or dislike involved. Only necessity. With ZC, we had no necessity for a split based at X6. Whereas now, Cinnamon has given us the necessity of a branch somewhere for us to lead into RO as a parallel to Neo Arcadia. But as Hypershell has pointed out, we don't have a justification for that split being X6, not even now. The timeframe of the split is as of yet so unconfirmed that it could even acknowledge XCM in the same timeline as Rockman Zero, instead of the much anticipated opposite.

If this somehow places both Zero's sealing and XCM as part of its past, don't you think that would be interesting?

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Not only do they maintain that the X Buster uses plasma power (where it should be solar everywhere outside of the Plasma Charge Shot),

Technically, they're pretty much the same thing. Feel free the elaborate on the distinction.

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but they also comment implying that the variable weapon system is nigh incomprehensible and unique

Not so incomprehensible now that we're copying X whole...

But the point remains that X's variable weapons system is unique among the clone hunters. It started out unique in the classic and X series, and in fact, it should have stayed unique.

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, when not only Axl, but Duo in Power Fighters as well had demonstrated this same power (and ergo, his "types" should still have it)

It is not uncommon for plot abilities to be lost and gained even with DNA cloning involved. We all remember Zero's buster, do we not?

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Like the intermingling of "Rockman," "Reploid" and "Humaroid" they are making a game for the Korean region based on Korean understanding and expectations, as well as their own imaginative direction. Their details align and conform for that purpose-applying the game characters and details they want to use. I believe they are not interested in being Japan-canon or any other region.

It goes without saying that their understanding and imaginative direction are alwaysa factor. Region has preciously little to do with it, and these being different developers has everything to do with it. Your examples are no different from the contradictions that exist within the X-series in itself. To emphasize that I ask: what was Zero's power source again?

But let's amuse the notion of "region" for a second; what if Capcom of Japan brings the title over?

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something that Rockman Online has yet to acknowledge.

The X-series itself acknowledges it in a way; RockmanX6. It was what led to Gate's madness.

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On the one hand, probably nothing, since that was a fanciful translation that does not appear in the Japanese version.

Nice to know.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2010, 07:08:11 PM »
I agree that the plasma/solar distinction is a bit of splitting hairs (though I'm surprised to see Zan beat me to that in light of our other discussions on localization terms).  "Solar" is commonly associated with light energy, but it technically refers to the sun, which is a big ball of plasma in a constant state of nuclear fusion.  Consider if you will that X is equipped with a "Micro-fusion Fuel Tank", and I would not be willing to bet much on X or his buster being powered simply by daylight.

Localized terms in Korea have always been a bit of a mish-mash; as I recall both "MegaMan" and "Rockman" brands have made it over there.  So, that much is to be expected.  I would HOPE that their working with CoJ on this one would net them a bit more credibility, but since they are approaching this game as quite possibly Korean-exclusive that may or may not make it to Japan, RMO simply being its own AU is pretty likely.  It's the most clean-cut way of dealing with it, even more so from Capcom's standpoint than from ours.

The gameplay mold of MegaMan more or less mandates that any playable character have some equivalant of VWS.  To that end, Duo in Power Fighters is the hardest to excuse.  ProtoMan and Bass can be swept under the rug by association of their design with Rock's (Wily playing copy-cat).  Axl has the benefit of Hunter support, which works to the benefit of all RMO players.  It is a known fact that DNA data is feasible for use as general power-ups ever since Xtreme2, further reinforced by X5 and X7 (the latter clarifying that such data is transferable without much hassle, but the ability to utilize it is fairly specialized).  The "mysteriousness" of X's VWS most likely refers to his ability to utilize such data independently.  Axl, if put in that same boat, would theoretically be stuck with only his Copy Chip abilities (read: ZXA).

Could you elaborate what you mean here? I'm not sure I quite understand.
Zero "disappearing" in either X6 fork leads only to MMZ.  RMO requires Zero is "dead", not the same thing, therefore his "disappearance" in an X6 fork conceivably not leading to MMZ is unexplained.

The rest is the varying events which currently tie the entirety of MMX main series to MMZ.  Zero's X6 ending itself being a part of the "main" timeline, Snipe Anteater, Zero's dreams, and our loose connections to Axl.  I'm not willing to completely rewrite the background behind ALL of these things, based on what RMO "might" be doing.

I think it could well be either that:
1. Cause and effect A - Force Metal use for reploids is forbidden due to the dangerous nature proven in CM.
2. Cause and effect B - Force Metal has already been used up due to its finite nature of coming from but one singular asteroid.
3. Branching effect - The meteoroid fell but in their timeline nobody ever studied it because they were too busy having Elf Wars.
4. Complete break - Force Metal does not exist in their timeline at all.
#2 falls in line with Cinnamon, the "Force Metal Generator", being targeted by the Rebellion even within XCM; surely if any Force Metal research were to continue her role would be that much more important as time went on.

What was Zero's power source again?
Some unspecified derivative of Bassnium/Fortenium research.

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But let's amuse the notion of "region" for a second; what if Capcom of Japan brings the title over?
You know, it occurs to me more and more lately that not every localized term is necessarily pulled out of its respective regional office's ass.  Recall, if you will, with Legends 3, that it was Capcom Japan which corrected jgonzo on Aero's name being Sephira outside of Japan.  Unless specifically told, we really have no way of knowing when and to what extent CoJ is involved with such things.

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The X-series itself acknowledges it in a way; RockmanX6. It was what led to Gate's madness.
In all fairness, X6's virally contagious "piece of Zero" follows a known and massive viral assault on Zero in X5.  That doesn't necessarily point to Zero spreading the virus at all times.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2010, 07:17:23 PM »
So after reading marshmallow man's post, it seems like all those "answers" that RO came up with are now utterly pointless because it can't really share continuity with the mainlines. AAAAAAAARGH.

Not that I wasn't doubting that after the whole "timeline split" came up; I don't think Capcom would allow for those in the MM series (dunno about other franchises; I think Street Fighter has at least one).

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Region has preciously little to do with it,

I hope this reply doesn't start a bitchfight, but...if you had to translate something, didn't have all the info on it, but HAD to have something there (because it's not the Internet and you can't say "I'm not entirely sure what happened there"), I'm sure there would be SOME difference...

Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2010, 07:23:01 PM »
I believe what Zan is getting at is that the game is not being produced outside of Capcom of Japan's influence.  They are in on the game's development, they just don't know if they want to release it for sale in Japan.

A lot of fans, and I'm sure myself included at times, get "swept up" in the notion of region-specific projects being produced in isolation from CoJ, the author of the core scenarios from which all derivatives come from.

We really should know better, especially after X Collection...

(EDITS: For clarification, there ARE plenty of projects produced without CoJ's full review of continuity and whatnot, I'm just saying that we can't assume that all of them are.)

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2010, 07:28:40 PM »
Ah.

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We really should know better, especially after X Collection...

Heck, even RS-MM, I think. At least, it's not like CoJ didn't notice it. Though--I dunno, is it safe to say that Novas Adventuras de Megaman was totally isolated from CoJ?

Offline marshmallow man

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2010, 09:45:17 PM »
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How come I'm sensing hostility from one such as you, who hasn't been around for a while? You've never before entered a discussion in such a manner.

What? I was just happy to see something come up that wasn't old hash. We've talked RPM, we've talked Model A. But I don't recall too much focus on Command Mission, aside from its ill-fitting placement on the ZC timeline. It's actually what persuaded me to bother to post at all. That and ample free time this holiday weekend.

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I don't think there's any like or dislike involved.

It's actually all that's involved at the moment.

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If this somehow places both Zero's sealing and XCM as part of its past, don't you think that would be interesting?

Naturally I'm interested: they had me at "Rockman." That doesn't change however that RO cannot fit into ZC's timeline at all from what we have seen so far, unless their very actions rewrites time itself.

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Technically, they're pretty much the same thing. Feel free the elaborate on the distinction.

Weaponized plasma in this Rockman games has an electrical element to it that is often visually distinct. In X4-X6 Ultimate Armor that amounts to the added hits in the form of mini plasma balls that stay after the first. In Zero and ZX, it's more directly applied to their tri-elemental system (see Model H/HX in particular). Solar bullets as a weapon are distinctly separate from this.

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But the point remains that X's variable weapons system is unique among the clone hunters. It started out unique in the classic and X series, and in fact, it should have stayed unique.

Perhaps it should have, but it didn't.

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Region has preciously little to do with it, and these being different developers has everything to do with it. Your examples are no different from the contradictions that exist within the X-series in itself. To emphasize that I ask: what was Zero's power source again?

Region and the regional understanding of their audience has everything to do with game development, particularly in this case.
Do you mean to imply with Zero's power source that because contradictions exist within Japan itself, that all contradictions for any region should be ignored? In that case, this entire conversation has just lost meaning. However, I'll just stick to examining the reasons for these contradictions and examining... in plasma's case, and certainly for mixing terms and new ones like humaroids, the region is the red-handed culprit. As far as timeline connection, that is probably the creative vision. Wasn't there an interview with a Capcom director that explained that Pmang brought the idea to them?

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But let's amuse the notion of "region" for a second; what if Capcom of Japan brings the title over?

Either they'll adapt all terms and contradictions properly as they did when adapting Cain's Journal, or they will leave it and allow that it does its own thing. I'd wager the latter.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2010, 11:05:30 PM »
Weaponized plasma in this Rockman games has an electrical element to it that is often visually distinct. In X4-X6 Ultimate Armor that amounts to the added hits in the form of mini plasma balls that stay after the first. In Zero and ZX, it's more directly applied to their tri-elemental system (see Model H/HX in particular). Solar bullets as a weapon are distinctly separate from this.
You haven't by chance noticed that in both Classic and Zero, weaponized solar energy is depicted as fire-element?

Sorry, Marshmallow, but you're describing a pretty loose trend, which is by no means concrete evidence.  Even the X4 example is debatable; if you're going to cite arcing lines as evidence of electrical attack element, there's any number of X's charged shots besides Plasma Charge that I can introduce you to, especially from the Super NES titles.  Several of them also spark, which the Plasma Charge does not.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2010, 11:24:17 PM »
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You haven't by chance noticed that in both Classic and Zero, weaponized solar energy is depicted as fire-element?

More often than not: and that is the point. That which is labeled plasma in Japanese is accompanied by Elec element; solar is not (ever). Try to find one where it isn't.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2010, 11:40:24 PM »
You already named one for me unless you iron out the selective reasoning behind your previous post.  There's nothing "electric" about the Plasma Charge except its appearance (residual damage is not electric-specific; fire does that in Zero).  Further, the main body of the charge attack has absolutely no electrical appearance to it, yet logic dictates that it must "carry" the charge that it leaves behind, which SEVERELY damages your notion that we can rule out such associations solely by appearance.

Also by such logic: gauging electrical association solely by appearance, these are all electric, and thus viable "plasma" candidates:

Footnote: The standard charged shot of PS1 games DOES have sparks, but lacks arcing lines, so I omitted it.

But assuming for the sake of argument you hadn't answered your own challenge before offering it, here's another, also from X4:
http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Cannon
Enemy named in Servbot 20's collected sourcebook info.

More often than not: and that is the point. That which is labeled plasma in Japanese is accompanied by Elec element; solar is not (ever).
When did I remotely imply that solar was accompanied by electric?

You rather neatly swept under the rug my bringing up what element solar IS accompanied by.  So by what logic do we assume that buster shots, a non-elemental attack for the purpose of gameplay, are closer to fire than to electric?

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Offline marshmallow man

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2010, 12:25:14 AM »
I'm not talking visuals. I'm talking literal descriptions of the weapon in sourcebooks. Plasma Charge Shot is electronically charged. The Rock Buster and X Buster are both canonically solar powered. Visuals would never be enough.
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When did I remotely imply that solar was accompanied by electric?

I would have said when you stated that the distinction of solar and plasma was splitting hairs. But I think you simply misunderstood me in thinking that I was judging by visuals and interpretations, when I was actually talking facts.

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http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Cannon

An electron-charged laser. Still elec.

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So by what logic do we assume that buster shots, a non-elemental attack for the purpose of gameplay, are closer to fire than to electric?

By the logic of that is what we are both shown and told. I'm not making the call; they are. Plasma is elec and distinct from solar, which they feel is closer to heat element with robots like Pharaoh Man and Solar Man. Ask Capcom why.

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2010, 01:19:44 AM »
I'm not talking visuals. I'm talking literal descriptions of the weapon in sourcebooks. Plasma Charge Shot is electronically charged.
If you have an official description, then quote it.  Don't simply offer a paraphrase of gameplay effects, that doesn't prove your point.

I'd best let that go, however, because we're on a tangent.  Since you specified that you're not talking about "interpretations" such as attack elements (your citing Model H threw me off, my apologies), then when you issued that challenge you in fact got the argument backwards:  "Plasma" by definition, involves electrical charge.  It's the state of matter at which electrons are no longer bound to their atoms.  The fact that Capcom associates plasma with electrons does not produce some MegaMan-specific brand of logic and should by no means be treated as such.

Thus, we need to back up a bit.  The task at hand is not to prove why plasma is associated with electrons, but rather, why the buster must not be.  Why is the buster classified exclusively as a heat ray that makes no use of electricity?  The term "solar" in and of itself does not answer that, and it is the only answer you have thus far presented.  The connection between "solar" and "plasma" is a simple matter of physics and etymology, as I already addressed.  We can tie this to X through his canonically stated use of fusion.  While "solar" may for obvious reasons be associated with heat, it is not exclusive to such, nor is that which is associated with heat by any means automatically disassociated with electricity.

Along that same vein:
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An electron-charged laser. Still elec.
What non-electron-charged lasers do we see, and how do you draw that distinction?

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Offline Zan

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2010, 01:31:48 AM »
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(though I'm surprised to see Zan beat me to that in light of our other discussions on localization terms).

In this case, we were pretty much going with the same train of thought; the sun is a large ball of plasma. Furthermore, we mustn't forget this is translated from Korean. Do we even know how the Koreans originally "localized" the phrase "solar" in contrast with "plasma"?

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Some unspecified derivative of Bassnium/Fortenium research.

Zero's power source according to one source was "solar energy like X", in others "atomic". But yes, the energy that exceeds Fortenium also deserves a mention. Although I think the strongest energy on Earth more than likely refers more to Zero's use of the virus as a powersource, we're certainly getting conflicting implications within the X-series in itself; RO's offenses are thusfar no greater than that.


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You know, it occurs to me more and more lately that not every localized term is necessarily pulled out of its respective regional office's ass.  Recall, if you will, with Legends 3, that it was Capcom Japan which corrected jgonzo on Aero's name being Sephira outside of Japan.  Unless specifically told, we really have no way of knowing when and to what extent CoJ is involved with such things.

I'm still raising an eyebrow as to why that particular name change was even needed. I know Capcom has a knack for changing terms that are for all intends and purposes already written in the target language, but damn, this was blatantly overdoing it.

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In all fairness, X6's virally contagious "piece of Zero" follows a known and massive viral assault on Zero in X5.

And a virus dies with its host, the same game said. So, there's definitely something odd about Zero. Add to that the original meaning behind his ending, as well as Gate somehow being afflicted by the Sigma Virus, to bring Sigma back, instead of the Zero Virus.

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What? I was just happy to see something come up that wasn't old hash. We've talked RPM, we've talked Model A. But I don't recall too much focus on Command Mission, aside from its ill-fitting placement on the ZC timeline. It's actually what persuaded me to bother to post at all. That and ample free time this holiday weekend.

Let's just say among other word choice, that "regurgitations" wasn't the best one. I would have figured you'd be more amused with us actually reconsidering your own premise.

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Perhaps it should have, but it didn't.

When we consider that Axl's display of VWS is in fact based on different weapons instead of a single weapon somehow changing its output, how is VWS by plot instead of gameplay, no longer unique?

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That doesn't change however that RO cannot fit into ZC's timeline at all from what we have seen so far, unless their very actions rewrites time itself.

If the rewriting of time is limited to just the examples you gave (plasma/solar and VWS), I'd say that's pretty minor. Do you have any better examples of contradicting the known timeline?

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new ones like humaroids

Why couldn't it just come with the setting of this far future world? Like Rockman X coined "Repliroid" and "Mechaniroid", like Rockman Zero coined "Mythos Repliroids" and "Bioroids".

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By the logic of that is what we are both shown and told. I'm not making the call; they are. Plasma is elec and distinct from solar, which they feel is closer to heat element with robots like Pharaoh Man and Solar Man. Ask Capcom why.

Ergo, we're dealing with the same neutral energy shots fired from the same ranged weapon, but given an ever so slight difference in elemental inclination of "fire" versus "elec", that hardly even registers on enemies. By what logic can the X-buster not fire plasma when even Zero's bustershot can fire attacks of all elements by the mere insertion of a chip?

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2010, 01:39:37 AM »
I'm still raising an eyebrow as to why that particular name change was even needed. I know Capcom has a knack for changing terms that are for all intends and purposes already written in the target language, but damn, this was blatantly overdoing it.
At first, perhaps.  But given time, I liked it.  I thought that "Aero" as a character name, because her hair is airy, sounded pretty cheesy.

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And a virus dies with its host, the same game said. So, there's definitely something odd about Zero.
We're not looking at scrap metal, though; this piece of Zero was intact enough to retain his DNA data.  Could a piece of a Reploid be used as a viral culture, even if only temporarily?  Surely the virus would have died eventually, but that doesn't mean that the host's death causes it to die instantaneously.  The concentration of the viral assault is also worth mentioning, since we know that the Sigma Virus better tolerates the unhosted substance world in high concentrations.

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Why couldn't it just come with the setting of this far future world? Like Rockman X coined "Repliroid" and "Mechaniroid", like Rockman Zero coined "Mythos Repliroids" and "Bioroids".
I somehow missed that over the course of this discussion, but that makes sense to me.  In-universe terminology can and has changed over the ages.  Certainly this is no more offensive than the general ambiguity of "Sigma Virus" when used in retrospective text.

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Offline Flame

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Re: The story of Rockman Online
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2010, 03:36:09 AM »
XCM disconnected? Maybe, though X8 did try and connect it a little by introducing the New Gens and then at the end, that little note that copy chip production restarted some time in the future, which is what CM has, with Redips and many of his soldiers being New Gens.

Also the Orbital elevator Babel, with X8 showing the first orbital Elevator
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.