Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #250 on: February 28, 2012, 01:58:35 AM
Well, Scaravich's level sorta-kinda does that, not only with its random courses, but with some random block placement within each course.  Not one of my favorite levels, though.

*stuff*
I'm not sure what you define as "cheating" to get around as unarmored X, but the only time I had to do ANYTHING that I consider a physics exploit (which was cancelling air momentum to reset your jumping arc) is the pit in Yammark's alternate route, and there's actually nothing there except the Dynamo boss room.  No reploids or items of any sort, and no other obstacle in the game requires that.  Certainly not Shadow Armor's helmet.

Why should unarmored X be Zero's equal?  X has armor.  Zero doesn't.  If the game were balanced as you suggest, Zero would be underpowered.

It might be worth mentioning that while the Falcon Armor's abilities were overall nerfed, it was given the ability to charge special weapons, which it cannot do in X5.

Your High Max video says nothing; as I said earlier the Z-Buster is situational.  When I said "more trouble than it's worth", I meant to rely on it.  To seize the opportunity when it arises, that is something else entirely.  But it's all a moot point, because the Z-Buster has NOTHING on the Blade Armor when it comes to fighting High Max.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?MegaManX6_8boss_2314
Part 15, 1:43

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Offline Treleus

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Reply #251 on: February 28, 2012, 05:10:44 AM
EDIT: Oh hey you guys might like this. You can skip to the No Dash Boss Rush clips for the really good stuff, but whatever you do, read the video descriptions.

I'm not sure what you define as "cheating" to get around as unarmored X, but the only time I had to do ANYTHING that I consider a physics exploit (which was cancelling air momentum to reset your jumping arc) is the pit in Yammark's alternate route, and there's actually nothing there except the Dynamo boss room.  No reploids or items of any sort, and no other obstacle in the game requires that.  Certainly not Shadow Armor's helmet.

That's exactly it. Manipulating your air time by pressing start and using weapons that cancel your momentum. I hope you didn't forget that one part in the Gate Stages where there was a huge pit meant only to be crossed by Zero, the Blade Armor, or the Falcon Armor. Neither unarmored X nor Shadow Armor can air-dash, and you can't just make a dash jump off the side of the platform because there's another upside-down platform in your way. So as either of them--even with Speedster and Jumper parts--you have to cheat.

Why should unarmored X be Zero's equal?  X has armor.  Zero doesn't.  If the game were balanced as you suggest, Zero would be underpowered.

And we wouldn't want that.  8)

Between X's greater mobility but weaker strength with the X buster and Zero's greater strength but less mobility with the Z-buster, it sort of balances out. It's just weird that between the ranged expert and the melee expert, it's the melee expert with a stronger ranged attack than the ranged expert. I know Zero wrecked Vile's first Ride suit in X1 with a single shot, but the series has come a long (although not necessarily great) way since then, and I'd imagine X's buster has come to either match or exceed Zero's while he excels with the saber, not have Zero excel at both while X compensates with armors. Call it nitpicking if you like, but I just don't like the PSX games for the most part.

It might be worth mentioning that while the Falcon Armor's abilities were overall nerfed, it was given the ability to charge special weapons, which it cannot do in X5.

Seems like an unnecessary break with tradition, especially to recycle a second armor, along with the Ultimate Armor, and to keep regular X's basic start abilities from changing.

Your High Max video says nothing; as I said earlier the Z-Buster is situational.  When I said "more trouble than it's worth", I meant to rely on it.  To seize the opportunity when it arises, that is something else entirely.  But it's all a moot point, because the Z-Buster has NOTHING on the Blade Armor when it comes to fighting High Max.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?MegaManX6_8boss_2314
Part 15, 1:43

It said exactly what I wanted to say: The Z-buster is buffed. Even in the High Max fight, you could time almost any of Zero's techniques at just the right time to stun High Max at ground level. Then use the Metal Sword to destroy the barrier and squeeze off a quick shot. Even with X, you could time his charged shot just right (or jump right in front of his shield) and have it phase through the shield to make contact with High Max. It's a physics glitch, and no one is supposed to figure it that out, but there you go. This doesn't count how effective the Z-buster is against any other enemy, but that's moot anyways since you can just slash their face in half or dice them up using that insane saber cancel exploit. Zero's broken, but I'm not asking for him to be underpowered or for X to so much surpass him (what, like that's bad now? karma chameleon, [sonic slicer]!) as get a little buffed in relation. An air-dash here, an extra chip of damage there, that's all. The game's still made for Zero or the armors anyways, but I don't think it's asking for much to at least make the game a little more beatable with X without resorting to cheating. Veteran no-armor X gamers would expect that much at least.

It's Part 14, not 15.

How the hell is anyone supposed to figure out the Mach Dash was even capable of harming High Max after being stunned, much less being that powerful? Aside from the two obvious weapons and a Giga Attack you have already? I'm not impressed by the astounding lack of sense the game design has.



Offline Flame

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Reply #252 on: February 28, 2012, 06:42:34 AM
Quote
I hope you didn't forget that one part in the Gate Stages where there was a huge pit meant only to be crossed by Zero, the Blade Armor, or the Falcon Armor.

All you need is jumper.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Treleus

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Reply #253 on: February 28, 2012, 07:10:13 AM
I beg to differ. Unless you mean to tell me I just had to be right above the pixel cutoff line for death before I kicked off to the other side? If so, I'd like to see video of that.



Offline Police Girl

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Reply #254 on: February 28, 2012, 07:12:16 AM
I beg to differ. Unless you mean to tell me I just had to be right above the pixel cutoff line for death before I kicked off to the other side? If so, I'd like to see video of that.

How the hell do you think people get to Gate with the Shadow Armor?

Hard Jump =/= Impossible Jump.



Offline Flame

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Reply #255 on: February 28, 2012, 07:13:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvNv2E9k6Ic

0:52

EDIT: that's hyper dash, not jumper. My bad. Still, all you need is that part for X.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Treleus

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Reply #256 on: February 28, 2012, 07:39:49 AM
Huh. Well I stand corrected then.

Never actually went looking for video of Shadow Armor vs. Gate, so it never occurred to me that it was even possible. This basically means that if you happen to lose the Reploid that has the jumper Hyper Dash part, you can't complete the game with either X or Shadow Armor, so you'll just have to use another armor/character.

Hang on, can the Shadow Armor even equip Jumper? Didn't look like it from the video. So you do have to cheat with that one.
According to the uploader, just Speedster is enough for the Shadow Armor.

Be that as it may, I still think it asks a bit much from the player to figure that jump is even doable, much less get it on the first try. It's a definite beginner's trap.

EDIT: It's worth noting that the video author also bothered to preface those strategies with actually impossible jumps, which pretty much just underlines the absurdity of this game's design.



Offline Flame

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Reply #257 on: February 28, 2012, 07:58:46 AM
Nobody is saying it isn't a bad idea. Just that it's not impossible with normal X.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #258 on: February 28, 2012, 03:48:16 PM
Never actually went looking for video of Shadow Armor vs. Gate, so it never occurred to me that it was even possible. This basically means that if you happen to lose the Reploid that has the jumper Hyper Dash part, you can't complete the game with either X or Shadow Armor, so you'll just have to use another armor/character.

Hypershell mentioned earlier that only certain parts can be lost forever.  Hyper Dash isn't one of them.

How the hell is anyone supposed to figure out the Mach Dash was even capable of harming High Max after being stunned, much less being that powerful? Aside from the two obvious weapons and a Giga Attack you have already? I'm not impressed by the astounding lack of sense the game design has.

The Blade Armor has numerous ways to defeat High Max.  The Guard Shell dash method is just one of many.  Sure, some take longer than others, but that's to be expected.

Neither unarmored X nor Shadow Armor can air-dash, and you can't just make a dash jump off the side of the platform because there's another upside-down platform in your way. So as either of them--even with Speedster and Jumper parts--you have to cheat.

Taking advangtage of a game's mechanics isn't cheating.  Cheating involves violating the rules of the game, such as using outside enhancements (i.e. Gamesharks).

Here's the thing, when you select normal X on the character select screen, you lose the right to complain about difficulty (especially on Xtreme mode).  You pretty much ask for the game to throw everything it has at you, knowing that you're using a character with obvious limitations.  Yes, normal X is capable of getting every part in the game on his own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be a cakewalk.

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Offline Treleus

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Reply #259 on: February 28, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
Here's the thing, when you select normal X on the character select screen, you lose the right to complain about difficulty (especially on Xtreme mode).  You pretty much ask for the game to throw everything it has at you, knowing that you're using a character with obvious limitations.  Yes, normal X is capable of getting every part in the game on his own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be a cakewalk.

Nothing justifies absurd game design. Not Even Unarmored X.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #260 on: February 29, 2012, 02:15:38 AM
I imagine now I know what a dog-hater would think of Mega Man 3's level design...

That's exactly it. Manipulating your air time by pressing start and using weapons that cancel your momentum. I hope you didn't forget that one part in the Gate Stages where there was a huge pit meant only to be crossed by Zero, the Blade Armor, or the Falcon Armor. Neither unarmored X nor Shadow Armor can air-dash, and you can't just make a dash jump off the side of the platform because there's another upside-down platform in your way. So as either of them--even with Speedster and Jumper parts--you have to cheat.
What I find most hilarious about this entire thread is that Zero isn't even capable of reaching that pit.

Anyways, as we established above, Hyper Dash alone gets you through, albeit with some precision.  Adding Jumper to the mix makes it [acid burst]-simple.  And it is absolutely impossible to permanently lose either one of them.

Quote
it's the melee expert with a stronger ranged attack than the ranged expert.
You know, most Zero fans argue the inverse when they get one look at Shadow Armor's charged saber.  With good reason, too.

And unlike your argument, that one isn't specific to bosses.

Quote
How the hell is anyone supposed to figure out the Mach Dash was even capable of harming High Max after being stunned, much less being that powerful? Aside from the two obvious weapons and a Giga Attack you have already? I'm not impressed by the astounding lack of sense the game design has.
...do I REALLY need to explain why expecting Mega Man series weaknesses to make sense leads to disappointment?

But what the hell, I'll bite:  High Max is not supposed to be defeated easily, so it actually makes sense that his most critical weaknesses are unconventional.  The intent is that you are fighting an enemy who is immensely more powerful than you.  The game literally states that the odds against him being defeated are 5000:1.

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Offline Treleus

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Reply #261 on: February 29, 2012, 03:04:27 AM
Anyways, as we established above, Hyper Dash alone gets you through, albeit with some precision.  Adding Jumper to the mix makes it [acid burst]-simple.  And it is absolutely impossible to permanently lose either one of them.

Whatever. It's still an unnecessary, but intentional crucial derail from the main objective in order to find two parts in separate ends of bum-[tornado fang]ing nowhere in the game. Never in the history of mainstream Mega Man games has something like that been made necessary, for players who just want to do a dry no-upgrades run with X, in order to progress all the way to the end of the game. But hey, why start there when we could start at the entrance of Gate Stage 1 or against the Nightmare Mother? Even Ground Scaravich's stage is guilty of this, but some recourse can be found in the random swapping of stage layouts between teleports.

You know, most Zero fans argue the inverse when they get one look at Shadow Armor's charged saber.  With good reason, too.

And unlike your argument, that one isn't specific to bosses.

So you agree that the abilities of both characters are somewhat misplaced? Or that I'm not alone in thinking that?

That being said, charging sabers seems more befitting of X than it does of Zero, assuming you'd allow X to have a saber in the first place.

...do I REALLY need to explain why expecting Mega Man series weaknesses to make sense leads to disappointment?

Considering we've been trained to expect to find the right weakness in a set of boss weapons, the last thing any Mega Man gamer would expect to be strong against an enemy is a mobility move. It's outlandish, far-fetched, and just stupid.

But what the hell, I'll bite:  High Max is not supposed to be defeated easily, so it actually makes sense that his most critical weaknesses are unconventional.  The intent is that you are fighting an enemy who is immensely more powerful than you.  The game literally states that the odds against him being defeated are 5000:1.

He's so powerful, he can be taken down in a matter of seconds by dashing at or in front of him. Truly he's a force to be reckoned with.

You know, his fight pattern is arguably the easiest in the game. Sure, he's got a hard shell and hits like a [chameleon sting]er, but once you find the right combination to breach his defenses, it becomes a simple rinse-and-repeat endurance match followed by a slightly different endurance match. Never tell me the odds, I guess, because odds are they'll be wrong. It isn't hard to dodge his DESS POOP spheres unless you swear off dashing, and even then it's still more doable than dealing with the Nightmare Mother or that leap of faith. The shield he puts up can either be destroyed or clipped through before he ever puts it to use, and in the case of his first match, you can just stand there against the wall as he tries to DESS POOP you in the face, but to know avail. Stun, hit, and off you go.



Offline Sigma Zero X

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Reply #262 on: February 29, 2012, 05:07:56 AM
Okay, since the thread is about High Max right now, I want to ask a question.  Between High Max and Sigma, who is the harder boss? 

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Offline Police Girl

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Reply #263 on: February 29, 2012, 05:20:15 AM
Neither of them are particularly tough, High Max is easy once you know how to beat him, and Sigma is a joke.



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Reply #264 on: February 29, 2012, 05:57:41 AM
Sigma is a slowass weakling in his first form, and immobile in his second. Therefore he is the easier boss. Highmax likes to move around a bit more, and then go into a loop where he keeps firing that sphere at you repeatedly.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Treleus

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Reply #265 on: February 29, 2012, 06:47:24 AM
Hell Sigma's more of a tricky [sonic slicer] to kill, thanks to the spiked platform that shoves you around in mid air and the tricky timing it takes to dodge the green vertical beams. There's a chance you'll get royally screwed as regular X if Sigma fires that devastating concussion bomb at ground level, and you don't have a jumper part or Sigma's floating platform to use. I guess if you're playing as anyone else, Hell Sigma is easier, but then so is High Max.



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Reply #266 on: February 29, 2012, 07:14:26 AM
I know Zero can defeat Hell Sigma easily with his regular jump swing + Shield Sheldon's shield. Havent gotten to him as unarmored X yet though. got stuck on Heatnix's stage some time ago and havent really gone back to it yet.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #267 on: March 01, 2012, 01:37:38 AM
Really depends on who you're playing as.  Zero and Shadow Armor X may not be any slouch against High Max, but they make Sigma look absolutely pathetic.

So you agree that the abilities of both characters are somewhat misplaced? Or that I'm not alone in thinking that?

That being said, charging sabers seems more befitting of X than it does of Zero, assuming you'd allow X to have a saber in the first place.
The latter.  I, personally, don't find it all that odd that a limited set of either upgrades or situations on one character could be "stronger" than the character who has the better overall performance with the weapon.

Oh, and one more thing about buster performance: Overdrive.  X's version (it's the same regardless of armor) kicks the absolute crap out of Zero's, and makes *ANY* grounded boss not named High Max or Gate a complete joke.  When you combine that with the fact that Shadow Armor's saber pretty much rapes anything that doesn't have a mercy barrier, you have an engine of destruction that makes the Ultimate Armor look fairly balanced by comparison.

It's true that no other game throws out the same obstacles that X6 does, but no other game gives you the potential to become as insanely powerful as X6 does, either.  The only one that comes close is Xtreme2.  Even unarmored X can be quite a juggernaut with 16 Life-Ups and UH rank.

Quote
Considering we've been trained to expect to find the right weakness in a set of boss weapons, the last thing any Mega Man gamer would expect to be strong against an enemy is a mobility move. It's outlandish, far-fetched, and just stupid.

He's so powerful, he can be taken down in a matter of seconds by dashing at or in front of him. Truly he's a force to be reckoned with.
...
Nah, too easy.

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Offline Treleus

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Reply #268 on: March 01, 2012, 04:30:59 AM
Oh, and one more thing about buster performance: Overdrive.  X's version (it's the same regardless of armor) kicks the absolute crap out of Zero's, and makes *ANY* grounded boss not named High Max or Gate a complete joke.  When you combine that with the fact that Shadow Armor's saber pretty much rapes anything that doesn't have a mercy barrier, you have an engine of destruction that makes the Ultimate Armor look fairly balanced by comparison.

More than bursts of 5 Z-buster shots? I guess I'll take your word for it, since I'm done with X6 for the time being. I can at least see now why people consider it better than the Gaia Armor by far, but just because I'm a stubborn dick, I'd go with the more buster-centric armor.

It's true that no other game throws out the same obstacles that X6 does, but no other game gives you the potential to become as insanely powerful as X6 does, either.  The only one that comes close is Xtreme2.  Even unarmored X can be quite a juggernaut with 16 Life-Ups and UH rank.

Maybe, but considering Overdrive only lasts for 10 seconds, and getting 9999 souls to equip an extra stat-boost part is rather tedious, I just don't think it's worth it. But more on that once I decide to play X6 again for whatever reason.

...
Nah, too easy.

No, please. Speak your peace. I don't think my position is at all unreasonable.



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Reply #269 on: March 01, 2012, 06:24:49 AM
Maybe, but considering Overdrive only lasts for 10 seconds, and getting 9999 souls to equip an extra stat-boost part is rather tedious, I just don't think it's worth it. But more on that once I decide to play X6 again for whatever reason.

IIRC the stat-boost part is equippable after you get like 3000 souls.  5000 lets you equip a 3rd normal part, and 9999 lets you equip a 4th.  And yeah, Overdrive turns X into a little monster for 10 seconds.  Zero's Z-Buster burst shot doesn't hold a candle to X rapid-firing charge shots like it's nobody's business.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #270 on: March 01, 2012, 06:38:11 AM
Suddenly, memories of Xtreme 2.

I find it interesting how Ultimate buster breaks Shadow Armor's roof shooting ability, since he cant shoot normal shots. he does the animation, but nothing comes out.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #271 on: March 01, 2012, 07:48:49 AM
Suddenly, memories of Xtreme 2.

I find it interesting how Ultimate buster breaks Shadow Armor's roof shooting ability, since he cant shoot normal shots. he does the animation, but nothing comes out.

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Reply #272 on: March 01, 2012, 08:25:38 AM
Eh, well ultimate buster disables regular shots, and that move shoots regular shots, so thats what happens. and since theres no charged version of that attack, its just something that happened as a consequence.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #273 on: March 01, 2012, 11:39:38 PM
Indeed.  Thankfully ceiling-sticking is a fairly useless maneuver anyway when you're immune to spikes, but that did kinda disappoint me.  Either way, the lack of saber-lag still makes Ultimate Buster a much better fit with Shadow Armor than it is with Blade Armor, which I swear it actually cripples.  There are, what, two enemies in the game that trigger the buster shot's effect without being immune to it?

Another fun oddity is the fact that using Overdrive with the Shadow Armor results in the saber SFX accompanying your charged shots.

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Reply #274 on: March 02, 2012, 03:42:56 AM
how exactly DOES the Blade Armor's pseudo plasma discharge work anyway? it appears at random.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.