[sonic slicer] about Sonic

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #350 on: October 23, 2011, 04:59:49 AM
That's what you said about Colors.  And someone probably said the same thing about STH4 before that.  And Unleashed.  And Secret Rings.

Once upon a time, new Sonic characters did not mandate entirely new gameplay modes.  They had a few unique tricks, adding an individual flair, but a single gameplay style was kept in constant focus.  We called it S3&K, and it was one of the best damn games of its generation.  I'm still not sure why Sega thinks that concept only applies to 2D.

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Reply #351 on: October 23, 2011, 10:01:09 AM
That's what you said about Colors.  And someone probably said the same thing about STH4 before that.  And Unleashed.  And Secret Rings.

Once upon a time, new Sonic characters did not mandate entirely new gameplay modes.  They had a few unique tricks, adding an individual flair, but a single gameplay style was kept in constant focus.  We called it S3&K, and it was one of the best damn games of its generation.  I'm still not sure why Sega thinks that concept only applies to 2D.
Colors was a decent game, but it wasn't the kind of game to put Sonic in the good public eye again. The rest sucked. Sonic hasn't been "fixed" yet. And in this kind of game, I really don't know how they would stick in other friends in levels with the boost mechanic, and [parasitic bomb] only Sonic should be able to do.

Generations DOES feature friends in levels. As co-op AIs and racing partners, probably as a test ground for something in the future. So quit whining. They're gonna add friends when they're ready, and when it fits the [tornado fang]ing game they're working on. Not sooner.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #352 on: October 23, 2011, 05:40:32 PM
Colors was a decent game, but it wasn't the kind of game to put Sonic in the good public eye again. The rest sucked.
My point exactly: Sonic being solo has no correlation to quality.

Quote
I really don't know how they would stick in other friends in levels with the boost mechanic, and [parasitic bomb] only Sonic should be able to do.

Generations DOES feature friends in levels.
This isn't fun anymore.  You make it too easy.

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Reply #353 on: October 23, 2011, 06:00:19 PM
My point exactly: Sonic being solo has no correlation to quality.
This isn't fun anymore.  You make it too easy.
It features friends in the 2D levels.

And just because there's co-op AI, it doesn't mean they're fit for gameplay. So far, I've heard they're used for certain co-op actions and such.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #354 on: October 23, 2011, 08:23:35 PM
Among Sonic's friends, there's relatively little from a gameplay standpoint that Sonic alone does.  Rarely should these abilities be outright required, and even when they are, a few well-placed spring boards can get anyone else through just as easily.  Minor alterations to level design based on character, or even the same character with different goals, are something that Sega and countless other game companies are already well within the habit of.  It's something that both Colors and Secret Rings did anyway despite being Sonic-solo games.  The notion that a non-Sonic character will break a given stage design is outstandingly closed-minded.

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Reply #355 on: October 23, 2011, 09:59:09 PM
Among Sonic's friends, there's relatively little from a gameplay standpoint that Sonic alone does.  Rarely should these abilities be outright required, and even when they are, a few well-placed spring boards can get anyone else through just as easily.  Minor alterations to level design based on character, or even the same character with different goals, are something that Sega and countless other game companies are already well within the habit of.  It's something that both Colors and Secret Rings did anyway despite being Sonic-solo games.  The notion that a non-Sonic character will break a given stage design is outstandingly closed-minded.
Secret Rings didn't let you play as anyone other than Sonic, they just gave you stat-changing stuff which made the level designs less retarded to play through. If you're talking about that turd Black Knight, you know how well that was received. Colors allowed for Miis to play, but they were basically Sonic reskins with which you could play through virtual side-levels.

Were they big deals? No. People hated playing through the story 4 times in Heroes, for example. Adventure 2 had less characters than Adventure 1 when they realised that the small changes formula didn't work anymore, so they could focus on the different gameplay styles that WORKED. The Advance games evolved to two characters in Rush, which evolved to a single character in Colors DS/Generations 3DS. The formula became less about having different characters with little different things to begin with, and became more about Sonic, which overall evolved the core gameplay. Sonic levels now have a smarter design, and speaking about the 3D levels, boosting homing attacks play a big part. Now, Sonic levels have multiple paths to proceed by, each making smart use of those mechanics. It no longer makes sense for so many characters to be in the same game with similar gameplay. If Sega adds them later as unlockables, or DLC, sure. But don't give them an entire story of their own which is exactly like the regular one.

I don't really see these "other companies" being well within the habit of granting several characters slightly-changed levels to fit the gameplay in recent times. Unless you mean Nintendo's NSMB, Kirby and DK games, in which the level doesn't really change when you change characters, to my knowledge. It's not a trend anymore like it was in the 90s, I guess. Doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore, really.



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Reply #356 on: October 23, 2011, 10:48:04 PM
I recall people hating the Knuckles/Rouge shard hunting.

And to a certain extent the mech stages with Eggman and Tails, but they get more slack because come on, you're playing as freaking Eggman.

I didnt really mind playing through heroes 4 times. mainly because each team had its quirks, mainly that Team Rose has short easy levels, and each had a different side of the story. EG they all passed through the same stages in story- Although Team Chaotix and their fetch quests irked me a bit.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #357 on: October 23, 2011, 11:49:39 PM
I recall people hating the Knuckles/Rouge shard hunting.

And to a certain extent the mech stages with Eggman and Tails, but they get more slack because come on, you're playing as freaking Eggman.

I didnt really mind playing through heroes 4 times. mainly because each team had its quirks, mainly that Team Rose has short easy levels, and each had a different side of the story. EG they all passed through the same stages in story- Although Team Chaotix and their fetch quests irked me a bit.
It's new content versus same content. The treasure hunting and shooting didn't have an amazing reputation, but it worked quite solidly. Heck, Chaotix was the only team that changed things around a bit. Aside from that, it was the exact same game four times. And story? Sonic Heroes didn't have a "story".

I'm just saying here that it's not needed. Not required by far. Sure, stick'em in. But they don't deserve to be a gigantic deal. Massive amounts of friends are what's normally recognized as the main factor that killed the Sonic franchise (it's actually bad game design, but people can be dumb). We may see Tails and Knuckles in the future, but in the direction Sega's headed, they're most probably gonna try and keep Sonic as the role rider for awhile. And I got no problem with that.



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Reply #358 on: October 24, 2011, 10:03:33 AM
I wouldn't mind Sonic being the sole playable character, with Tails and Knuckles in supporting roles outside of stages (maybe just on the menus even). Those two are just as much a part of the series as Sonic is.

Now adding in all the other myriad friends... that would just kill it. They should stick to the main three here.

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #359 on: October 25, 2011, 02:56:14 AM
Secret Rings didn't let you play as anyone other than Sonic
That's...exactly what I said.  You misunderstood my post, I said that changing characters was one scenario that calls for it, the same character simply changing goals is another.  Secret Rings is the latter (it frequently tweaks stage design based on which mission you've selected), as is Colors (level alterations as Super Sonic).

I lack the time to properly respond to rest of your post at the moment, so 'till next time.  Just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding.

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Reply #360 on: October 25, 2011, 04:56:56 AM
That's...exactly what I said.  You misunderstood my post, I said that changing characters was one scenario that calls for it, the same character simply changing goals is another.  Secret Rings is the latter (it frequently tweaks stage design based on which mission you've selected), as is Colors (level alterations as Super Sonic).

I lack the time to properly respond to rest of your post at the moment, so 'till next time.  Just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding.
You mentioned both, without refering which meant what games, and I mentioned both as well, explaining reasons. But as always, not quoting my entire post instead of half a damn phrase leads to this [parasitic bomb].

Anyway, this video from the other topic:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YCcj0Foq8w&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Basically shows that the racing contained within the game doesn't really show Knuckles proceeding through the level. He just digs all the way through, sometimes popping up to throw some punches.



Offline Pyro

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Reply #361 on: October 25, 2011, 05:56:26 AM
I'm just saying here that it's not needed. Not required by far. Sure, stick'em in. But they don't deserve to be a gigantic deal. Massive amounts of friends are what's normally recognized as the main factor that killed the Sonic franchise (it's actually bad game design, but people can be dumb). We may see Tails and Knuckles in the future, but in the direction Sega's headed, they're most probably gonna try and keep Sonic as the role rider for awhile. And I got no problem with that.

Indeed, you can stuff those extra characters in a medium that's better suited to a cast of hundreds-- notably the comic but that's a whole other can o' worms.

Come and read some Thoughts of a Platypus


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #362 on: October 26, 2011, 01:23:55 AM
You mentioned both, without refering which meant what games, and I mentioned both as well, explaining reasons.
In the same sentence in which I mentioned both, I also mentioned that they are both "Sonic-solo".  A Sonic-solo game may have level tweaks, but those level tweaks cannot be the result of playing as friends who are not playable.  I can't get more specific than that.

Quote
But as always, not quoting my entire post instead of half a damn phrase leads to this [parasitic bomb].
Whether a statement is or is not placed in quote tags holds no correlation to whether or not a person has read it.  If I quote your point, be assured that I have read all further comments that you supplied, whether I included them in the quote or not.  I may have nothing to add, or an un-quoted detail may be covered in the broader scope of my response.  If you're going to whine that I'm ignoring parts of your post, then tell me how it is that whatever I neglected is relevant to my response, rather than just complain that it's not in the quote tags.

The last two times you quoted me you either failed to read or simply chose to ignore particularly relevant comments.  First about Colors and Secret Rings being Sonic-only, and second about WHY I was not able to write a full response immediately.  Copying a post without actually acknowledging the information contained within is pointless.  If you didn't even bother to read what you're responding to then you're only cluttering the boards.

Quote
Anyway, this video from the other topic:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YCcj0Foq8w&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Basically shows that the racing contained within the game doesn't really show Knuckles proceeding through the level. He just digs all the way through, sometimes popping up to throw some punches.
I have nothing to add to this.  It's relevant to the topic, but irrelevant to the debate.  Whether or not an NPC traverses a stage in any manner comparable to Sonic has no relevance to whether or not another player-controlled character can.

If you thought that I was implying otherwise in my earlier post, I wasn't.  I was just poking fun at the way your post was worded.


Rewind time:

Secret Rings didn't let you play as anyone other than Sonic, they just gave you stat-changing stuff which made the level designs less retarded to play through. If you're talking about that turd Black Knight, you know how well that was received. Colors allowed for Miis to play, but they were basically Sonic reskins with which you could play through virtual side-levels.
Secret Rings and Colors were disussed above, but I reiterate: I was not referring to character choice, because there isn't any.  I was referring to other gameplay circumstances that require a similar effect.  In the case of Secret Rings, it is alternate mission goals.  In the case of Colors, it is the absence of wisps during Super Sonic mode.

Another such example is the multiplayer mode in Sonic Adventure 2, where spring boards are used to allow passage in areas where the homing attack or light dash were otherwise required.

I did not mention Black Knight and see no way that it is relevant to the topic of level alterations.  Character-specific abilities in that game have little to nothing to do with stage navigation.  As for its reception, the game was rejected more on the grounds of concept than it was gameplay.

Quote
Were they big deals? No. People hated playing through the story 4 times in Heroes, for example. Adventure 2 had less characters than Adventure 1 when they realised that the small changes formula didn't work anymore, so they could focus on the different gameplay styles that WORKED.
Heroes came after Adventure 2.  The "small change formula" is, in Adventure 1, applicable only to Tails and Amy, as they're the only ones who share fairly similar play styles to Sonic.  However, they are both limited to considerably smaller and simpler stages than Sonic, which damages their presence in the game far more so than any failure to differentiate themselves.

The presence of multiple characters should in no way require a playthrough as each one, and players complaining when they do is not new to 3D gaming.  That criticism is as old as Doki Doki Panic.  This actually does depend on how unique the players are.  If they play differently, then sure, it makes sense because you're effectively talking about clearing different gameplay modes.  If they do not, if you are talking about only personal preference and minor ability changes, then there is no reason one should be forced to replay the game using every possible choice.

When you unlock Luigi in Super Mario Galaxy 2, are you required to re-capture every Star as him?  No.  It's senseless.  Luigi jumps higher and skids around, that doesn't excuse ignoring the progress made as Mario.  That was Sonic Heroes' mistake.

Quote
The Advance games evolved to two characters in Rush, which evolved to a single character in Colors DS/Generations 3DS. The formula became less about having different characters with little different things to begin with, and became more about Sonic, which overall evolved the core gameplay. Sonic levels now have a smarter design, and speaking about the 3D levels, boosting homing attacks play a big part. Now, Sonic levels have multiple paths to proceed by, each making smart use of those mechanics. It no longer makes sense for so many characters to be in the same game with similar gameplay. If Sega adds them later as unlockables, or DLC, sure. But don't give them an entire story of their own which is exactly like the regular one.
Nowhere did I say that any additional characters should require additional stories.

The story of Sonic Advance is negligible.  The story of Sonic Rush Adventure never splits with the players; Blaze simply joins Sonic and becomes an alternate choice.

The use of multiple paths in level design is irrelevant to the number of characters that can traverse them.  Inevitably, some will be exclusive, some will not, such things are to be handled case-by-case.

Several Sonic game stories already feature non-playable friends, most infamously Tails, who appears in nearly every game yet constantly remains on the sidelines, whether the story gives him a reason to or not.

Quote
I don't really see these "other companies" being well within the habit of granting several characters slightly-changed levels to fit the gameplay in recent times. Unless you mean Nintendo's NSMB, Kirby and DK games, in which the level doesn't really change when you change characters, to my knowledge. It's not a trend anymore like it was in the 90s, I guess. Doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore, really.
All three of your examples are irrelevant as they allow only one character in single-player.  NSMB doubly so as there are no player-specific abilities in the game.

In fact, that entire tangent is weak, because you're adding the condition of player selection while I already stated above, repeatedly, that levels see minor tweaks for any number of reasons, and Sega did it just last year when they brought Super Sonic into 3D stages.  Even if the cause is different, the solution is the same.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 11:54:24 PM by Hypershell »

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #363 on: October 28, 2011, 03:51:47 PM
quoted text so it doesn't take so much space
Jesus Christ...

1- Level tweaks in a game in which Sonic plays alone is irrelevant, because those gameplay tweaks are simple enough, due to the core gameplay being the same. Friends' gameplay, such as Knuckles' gliding/wall-climbing and Tails' flying, have to allow for far more intelligent routes, and not just tacked-on crap which gives no reason for them to include friends in the first place.

2- It certainly seems you haven't read it, when you don't even [tornado fang]ing refer to them. But this is a problem we've had for years. With both your inability to reply to certain parts of my replies because you say you don't "feel the need to answer to them" or in other times, because your wording is left ambiguous.

3- I was showing it to add to the theme in general, not to debate anything further.

4- Alternate mission goals have been there for a long, long time in Sonic games. And the wisps, although a mainstay in Colors, they were certainly not a constant required mechanism, more often showing themselves as an alternate route or a power-up. Enabling a non-wisp playthrough in Colors is not the same as making levels relevant to use with alternate characters. In SA2, all gameplay between multiplayer rival characters remains the same, so, moot point. Oh, and Black Knight was [parasitic bomb] in level design, gameplay and so much more. Enough with the [tornado fang]ing "everyone hates Sonic" conspiracy.

5- (sigh)
Quote
Heroes came after Adventure 2.
I know that.
Quote
The "small change formula" is, in Adventure 1, applicable only to Tails and Amy, as they're the only ones who share fairly similar play styles to Sonic.  However, they are both limited to considerably smaller and simpler stages than Sonic, which damages their presence in the game far more so than any failure to differentiate themselves.
Which is my point.

Quote
rest of this part of the reply
If they're just skins with tiny changes, something which shouldn't work with Sonic nowadays, why should they be there as mainstays in the first place? Like I said, I got nothing against unlockable skins. But for the friends to be there from the beginning, or be unlockable as characters in a main screen, there should be palpable changes to the levels, to justify their importance. Luigi doesn't NEED any changes, since he has what we can basically call stat changes. Mario Bros 2 didn't need any changes either, since it was about playing the same levels with other characteristics. This doesn't work with current Sonic. And seeing as Sega is saying that classic Sonic won't be here past Generations, it won't work on future Sonic games either. His design, and ways to progress through levels has changed too much. Do you honestly see Tails or Knuckles with dash bars? Should there have been more characters for the classic stages, but not for the new stages? It doesn't make any sense. Mario is basic platforming, and as we can see with that flash hack someone made, one can even play it with Samus, Simon Belmont or Contra Guy. I can understand your "just use different characters along the same playthrough" thing, and I understand that point. Thing is, it doesn't work in 3D Sonic, and it's hard to make relevant in 2D Sonic.

6- I wasn't talking about stories or narrative in this. I was talking about game design evolution, and how it became logical that using Sonic alone could maximize the efficiency of level design in each game. Yes, multiple level paths ARE relevant. And handling how each one should behave in accordance to each path in the level is quite a tricky business. It makes the game be much more complex in terms of design overall. Also, I don't see the point of the last sentence.

7- You're helping my argument by pointing out that nobody really does multiple similar characters nowadays. Mostly because games don't need them anymore, and have evolved beyond the necessity for such a thing.





Let's disregard the argument for a second, it's getting tiring as hell to do this. Just answer me one question: In what games nowadays, from about... let's say the last five years, do you see examples of multiple characters with very similar gameplay be used in the same game, in single player? Is there ANY game company that still does it?



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Reply #364 on: November 02, 2011, 07:41:54 PM

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Reply #365 on: November 02, 2011, 08:30:47 PM
Now that's awesome!



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Reply #366 on: November 04, 2011, 12:56:48 PM



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Reply #367 on: November 04, 2011, 03:36:30 PM
lol TSSZ.

Take it with a grain of salt. Wait till you hear something official. Seriously, that site is not the one to bother with.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #368 on: November 04, 2011, 11:32:58 PM
I'd be very surprised if Sega WASN'T working on a Wii-U Sonic.  Sonic is an annual franchise these days, and they've already stated that Generations won't hit Wii-U due to timing, but they did have a pretty strong affinity for the Wii this last generation.

The details sound a bit too fanboyish to be true, but then that's what I said about the first Unleashed screens.  We'll see.

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Reply #369 on: December 14, 2011, 12:28:36 PM
New tidbit with the SCD Port. Apparently the vocals in Sonic-You can Do Anything (And probably Believe in Yourself as well.) have been wiped out of the port's opening.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEbehshkzsw[/youtube]

We also get to see what the menu is like. Not bad considering the minimal effort that went into the Sega Vintage Collection ports.

Personally I think the song sounds fine without vocals.

Posted on: November 20, 2011, 07:58:42 PM
US Soundtrack is in, not DLC. Must say this is very good news for anybody wanting a soundtrack swap. Doesn't seem like we'll be able to swap individual tracks... that would be too good.

Posted on: November 25, 2011, 08:10:47 PM
To all you Xbox 360 Owners, Sonic CD is now available for 400 MS Points. Anybody in Europe who has a PS3 can get the game as well, US PS3 Owners have to wait till the 20th (PS3 Price is $5.00).

iOS version releases tomorrow at $1.99 (Holy [parasitic bomb] its cheap), Android version supposedly was supposed to come out today but its believed to be coming out early next year along with the Windows Phone version.

PC version is in Limbo, no announced release date yet.




Offline Rayl

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Reply #370 on: December 14, 2011, 01:50:33 PM
I just checked and it's not in the Europe PS3 store, not sure if that means the release date was off or Sony has yet to update the damn store.



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Reply #371 on: December 14, 2011, 01:52:26 PM
I just checked and it's not in the Europe PS3 store, not sure if that means the release date was off or Sony has yet to update the damn store.

Its probably Sony, Sega confirmed the release date for PS3 as the 14th in Europe.



Offline Rayl

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Reply #372 on: December 14, 2011, 01:57:04 PM
Very good, i'll be keeping my eye on the store and will buy it as soon as possible. Sonic CD has always and will always kick ass.



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Reply #373 on: December 14, 2011, 02:08:05 PM
Euro PSN gets Sonic CD today. US PSN gets it next week, I'm assuming because 360 had to get it first... ^^;



Offline Rayl

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Reply #374 on: December 14, 2011, 03:30:37 PM
Okay apparently the store gets updated at about 4pm GMT these days so you better believe i'll be [tornado fang]ing THERE.

Edit: I got it ^_^ Played through Act 1 of Palmtree Panic and everything (Music and time travel) transitions much more smoothly. The special stages feel more floaty though which is kinda weird, something i'll have to get used to.