Author Topic: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.  (Read 13677 times)

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2010, 06:26:46 PM »
I'd also like to add, that because Copy X and X do not share souls, the only thing that makes Copy X, "X" is his being addressed as so.  He's not really X, but it's the identity he was given.  Girouette was never addressed as Zero.

Now, Girouette DOES bear a striking resemblance to Zero, and there's a pretty heavy implication that Prairie has taken notice of it:

"Hahaha! Maybe Giro resembles someone you cared about. Everytime you talk about him, you look so happy. Don't worry, I won't hold it against you if you did like him. It's thanks to all of you that I'm finally able to fight for what's important."

So, if you want to theorize that he was built in memory of Zero, that's fine and dandy.  I wouldn't say that makes him "Copy Zero", though, since he first of all does not have any combat abilities of his own and secondly does have an identity of his own.

They are anything but irrelevant:
Okay, to that STATEMENT, even if they are addressed later on in the discussion.  I apologize for my poor choice of words, but what I meant was that Aile was asking about herself personally, and Giro's involvement, thus Prairie responds in that context.  The order, as your own quote shows, applies to a larger scale than that.  But Aile isn't asking about the order, she's asking about her own identity.

His compatibility with Model Z is an unintended side effect.  Much like Ashe who can use Model A because she's related to Albert, Giro can use Model Z because he shares its DNA data.

As Zan already stated Giro was chosen by Albert, which we know because he is in the ciphers in ZXA.

Further, one's DNA resembling that of the Biometal would be completely irrelevant.  For all Biometals, it is Albert's DNA, and none other, which affects compatibility.  No official word has ever suggested that there are any further compatibility checks beyond that (or as Zan once said, the idea that any Chosen One cannot use any Biometal is complete fanon).

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Offline Zan

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2010, 06:39:16 PM »
Quote
Further, one's DNA resembling that of the Biometal would be completely irrelevant.  For all Biometals, it is Albert's DNA, and none other, which affects compatibility.  No official word has ever suggested that there are any further compatibility checks beyond that (or as Zan once said, the idea that any Chosen One cannot use any Biometal is complete fanon).

There was some compatibility check performed on Grey, but to what extent, who knows.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2010, 06:57:41 PM »
You'll need to refresh my memory there.  You mean besides the failed mind-control schtick, or is this a Gigamix thing?

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Offline Zan

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2010, 07:05:03 PM »
Gigamix.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2010, 08:47:14 PM »
Ah, no wonder...

Gigamix's only depiction of Grey was while he was still in his capsule, though.  In other words, before he ever Rocked On.  Then of course there is the fact that he was really supposed to be Albert's spare body.

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Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2010, 06:02:25 PM »
Okay, to that STATEMENT, even if they are addressed later on in the discussion.  I apologize for my poor choice of words, but what I meant was that Aile was asking about herself personally, and Giro's involvement, thus Prairie responds in that context.  The order, as your own quote shows, applies to a larger scale than that.  But Aile isn't asking about the order, she's asking about her own identity.

The point of discussion here isn't what Aile wants to know, but the specifics of the order given to protect the Chosen Ones. Which is what Prairie explains in her response.

Offline Fragman

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2010, 01:15:54 AM »
I'd also like to add, that because Copy X and X do not share souls, the only thing that makes Copy X, "X" is his being addressed as so.  He's not really X, but it's the identity he was given.  Girouette was never addressed as Zero.

Now, Girouette DOES bear a striking resemblance to Zero, and there's a pretty heavy implication that Prairie has taken notice of it:

"Hahaha! Maybe Giro resembles someone you cared about. Everytime you talk about him, you look so happy. Don't worry, I won't hold it against you if you did like him. It's thanks to all of you that I'm finally able to fight for what's important."

So, if you want to theorize that he was built in memory of Zero, that's fine and dandy.  I wouldn't say that makes him "Copy Zero", though, since he first of all does not have any combat abilities of his own and secondly does have an identity of his own.

A good point.  Actually I'd forgotten about that particular conversation.

I guess the only difference there is where you draw the line between resemblance and an outright copy.  I'd like to think it's possible that Ciel built Giro, at least party based on her memory of Zero, but at the same time allowed him to be his own being.  Where you draw the line between homage and copy is really a matter of semantics. 

The Cyphers mentioning Giro, I'll have to check again.  After I blow through one more round of the Zero collection and finish the unlockables I'm moving on to replaying the ZX series.  If anything I need a dose of positive future after the end of Z4.

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Offline Zan

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2010, 01:34:06 AM »
Quote
The Cyphers mentioning Giro

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2010, 06:05:27 PM »
The point of discussion here isn't what Aile wants to know, but the specifics of the order given to protect the Chosen Ones. Which is what Prairie explains in her response.
You misunderstood me.  I was talking about Aile's discussion, not our discussion.  Before you chimed in, Prairie's complete response hadn't yet been offered as part the topic; only the first sentence about Giro.  You're applying my comments about Prairie's response to this thread as a whole, which was not my intent.

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Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2010, 04:05:00 PM »
You misunderstood me.  I was talking about Aile's discussion, not our discussion.  Before you chimed in, Prairie's complete response hadn't yet been offered as part the topic; only the first sentence about Giro.  You're applying my comments about Prairie's response to this thread as a whole, which was not my intent.

Now you're pushing words into my mouth. I rejoined the topic in response to Zan's post with a quote which potentially conflicted with his explanation about the commander's order. It is when you suggested an alternate interpretation for that particular quote that I saw fit to cite another part of the conversation. My point was always about the nature of the order, therefore I limited myself to what I believe to be the pertinent details. To me, questioning the actual point of Aile's query and how Prairie initially replied to it is just overcomplicating matters by grasping at straws.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2010, 04:52:55 PM »
Ambiguity doesn't help anyone, Oakes.  If you're going to claim that I'm off on a tangent, be specific as to why.

It is a direct statement that Giro received an order from Prairie Ciel.  It is not a direct statement, but rather an implication, whether or not he received that order firsthand, and whether or not that same order was received by other Guardians.  In discussing an implication, the intention of the speaker is a particularly relevant topic.  "Context" exists for that reason, and it is hardly my idea of grasping at straws.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 02:07:34 AM by Hypershell »

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Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2010, 11:05:21 PM »
Ambiguity doesn't help anyone, Oakes.  If you're going to claim that I'm off on a tangent, be specific as to why.

It is a direct statement that Giro received an order from Prairie.  It is not a direct statement, but rather an implication, whether or not he received that order firsthand, and whether or not that same order was received by other Guardians.  In discussing an implication, the intention of the speaker is a particularly relevant topic.  "Context" exists for that reason, and it is hardly my idea of grasping at straws.

With that, you have just claimed that Zan's post about all the Guardians receiving the order is conjectural. In which case, you should explain yourself what else can be inferred from Prairie's full explanation, rather than just her initial response.

And the order came from the first commander, not Prairie.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2010, 02:24:42 AM »
With that, you have just claimed that Zan's post about all the Guardians receiving the order is conjectural.  In which case, you should explain yourself what else can be inferred from Prairie's full explanation, rather than just her initial response.
Zan did not use that quote as a source.  He provided no source, and I cannot challenge his interpretation without knowing what he is interpreting.  Refuting Zan is not my responsibility; I will do so when I am driven to do so.  Now is not one of those times.

I'm getting that "
Argument Clinic
" vibe again, and Superbat's filled my quota on that for quite some time.  So may I suggest that further posts address ZX rather than what either of us believes the other should be posting?

...and I just did it again, didn't I? -AC

Quote
And the order came from the first commander, not Prairie.
Typos, they're part of life.

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Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2010, 04:17:54 PM »
Zan did not use that quote as a source.  He provided no source, and I cannot challenge his interpretation without knowing what he is interpreting.

Zan's statement can very well be challenged if there is a basis for it; the quotes that I provided come from the only instance I recall in which the first commander's order is addressed (barring other material that I'm either forgetting or that I'm unaware of). In the process of questioning the source that I provided (or how I interpret it), you indirectly challenged Zan's statement yourself.

I do not believe the situation in which Prairie made her statements changes the information provided, and therefore I consider it unnecessary when discussing the matter. I agree that we don't know the circumstances in which Giro received the order, and that it is not clear that other Guardians received the same order. However, Zan stated that all Guardians received this mission as a fact, which is what I had taken issue with in the first place.

Refuting Zan is not my responsibility; I will do so when I am driven to do so.  Now is not one of those times.

I don't see how "responsibility" factors into this; we're fans discussing a game series. We are entitled to join any conversation that interest us, but we have no obligation to do so. I didn't have the responsibility to reply to Zan in the first place, but his post caught my attention nonetheless. Responsibility here applies only to the staff that keeps the forum in order.

Even though it wasn't your intention, you refuted Zan's post as much, if not more than I did.

I'm getting that "
Argument Clinic
" vibe again, and Superbat's filled my quota on that for quite some time.  So may I suggest that further posts address ZX rather than what either of us believes the other should be posting?

By all means; it's what I was trying to do.

Typos, they're part of life.

So are corrections.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2010, 12:09:14 AM »
Zan's statement can very well be challenged if there is a basis for it; the quotes that I provided come from the only instance I recall in which the first commander's order is addressed (barring other material that I'm either forgetting or that I'm unaware of).
Naturally, but you're missing the point.  You already challenged Zan, thus warranting further elaboration, by him.  My comments do not negate that...
Quote
In the process of questioning the source that I provided (or how I interpret it), you indirectly challenged Zan's statement yourself.
...by your own admission, I might add.

So until Zan responds, my pushing the matter is redundant.

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Offline Thalath

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2010, 05:08:02 AM »
My apologies for being a bit late, but I do have a somewhat related question that has to do with Girouette, since we were kind of on the subject of him. (Well, and the first commander.)

I keep hearing that his age is between 15-25 (assuming physical age... surely he's much older than that due to his relations with the first commander?), but where was this stated? I don't remember hearing this anywhere in the game at all. o.o; Is there an Official Complete Works for this game I don't know about or something?

Offline Zan

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2010, 05:17:16 PM »
Quote
So until Zan responds, my pushing the matter is redundant.

But you two are doing so well on your own!

Anyway, it was my own impression when playing the game that the order to protect is one that all Guardians have to uphold, not just Giro. Though it is Giro who is given the task through Girouette Express, an organization within Guardian; it is still in Guardian's best interest to protect raid survivors at all costs. Who first received the order directly from the First Commander is another matter altogether; Prairie, Girouette, someone else? Much related is the question of timeframe; outside of the livemetal reports, Ciel should have cut all ties with the world when she learned about the importance of the raid survivors.

Quote
I keep hearing that his age is between 15-25 (assuming physical age... surely he's much older than that due to his relations with the first commander?), but where was this stated? I don't remember hearing this anywhere in the game at all. o.o; Is there an Official Complete Works for this game I don't know about or something?

The 15~25 estimate of Giro's age was given in Japanese on one of Capcom/Inti's blogs, but in a recent search neither Oakes, nor myself were able to locate it. As with Grey's age of "14" the assumption made by the fans is that a Repliroid's age refers to mental age/maturity; how long he's been physically around is uncertain. Take Prairie for example; she's mentally a teenager/young adult, but has been around for centuries. For the human characters we have no reason to doubt that the number is both physical and mental age; we've seen Vent and Aile grow, and along with Ashe the numbers fit with their being children so many years ago. We only have reason to doubt human ages after maturity is reached; see the Sage Trinity being centuries old.

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Offline Thalath

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2010, 01:28:02 AM »
Oh, thank you! That explains why I've never seen it then, I don't really stalk the Japanese blogs that much, hehe.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2010, 05:06:34 AM »
But you two are doing so well on your own!
You call that well?  If you left me hanging any longer I'd have had to tell Oakes that I love swimming in raw sewage.

(I know, nobody's going to get that joke)

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2010, 05:09:32 AM »
You call that well?  If you left me hanging any longer I'd have had to tell Oakes that I love swimming in raw sewage.

(I know, nobody's going to get that joke)

I LOVE IT!

I. LOVE IT!

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2010, 05:59:50 AM »
PB, I'm gonna try the roof.

*boom*  *clank*

PB, I'm gonna try it again.

We only have reason to doubt human ages after maturity is reached; see the Sage Trinity being centuries old.
In all fairness, the same "maturity" principle applies to Reploids, since Prairie has obviously grown in the last few centuries.  Reploids are simply further complicated by their "birth" not being as infants (that we've ever seen, anyway), but Reploid children, obviously younger in appearance than Grey, have been around ever since Command Mission.  And, before that, Sensei saw reason to believe that Iris should "develop" over time.  A Reploid may conceivably be built at any mental age, so their time of activation says nothing as to their character.

Take Grey, for example.  There's no indication that he was ever active prior to ZXA, and given his purpose, it seems doubtful.  So the "14 years old" age is obviously not related to how long he's been conscious.  You could go into how long ago he was built, but if he was in stasis the whole time, then age in that sense is largely irrelevant to the character.

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