Author Topic: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.  (Read 14536 times)

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Offline Gaia

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2010, 01:12:27 AM »
Hitoshi Ariga

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2010, 02:22:38 PM »
Bumping this for a bit.
I was replaying ZX as Aile, and after you defeat Prometheus in the Guardian Base, Pirarie tries to explain some things.
But one thing struck out.
Giro was ordered by the First Commander to protect the survivors of the Maverick raids.
Giro was there to save Aile from the Maverick raid... 10 years ago?
Won't that mean the First Commander was still around at that time?
Won't that also mean the First Commander only disappeared recently in terms of that?

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Offline Zan

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2010, 02:32:23 PM »
Girouette is a member of Guardian, and all of Guardian was issued an order to protect raid survivors, not just Girouette. It was Girouette who would carry it using Girouette Express as a secret organization within Guardian, because he's the one that turned into a Rockman. It was because of him that Prairie finally understand why her sister gave that order in the first place.

We know neither when Ciel gave the order, nor how long Guardian had been acting on it before Girouette, nor when Girouette first turned into a Rockman.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2010, 02:46:22 PM »
Ah... So it was wishful thinking on my part...
Thanks for the clarification Zan.

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Offline Flame

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2010, 06:01:14 AM »
So Giro was basically an unofficial member who was only involved with Guardian and the protection of raid survivors because he became a Rockman?
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2010, 12:16:03 PM »
Girouette was a legitimate Guardian, Giro Express was the cover up. The raid survivors needed protection because they somehow shared the ability to transform with the Biometals. By acting was as the owner of a transporter company, Giro could carry out his mission unsuspected.

Nonetheless, Giro honestly cared for the children he looked after, and proved himself willing to give his life to protect them.

Girouette is a member of Guardian, and all of Guardian was issued an order to protect raid survivors, not just Girouette.

I don't know, Prairie made it sound like the order was addressed to Giro specifically:

"Calm down Aile! I don't know much about what's going on either. The one that gave Giro the order to protect you was the first commander."

Offline Flame

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2010, 03:45:05 PM »
oops, I misread Zan's post as he is NOT a Guardian.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Fragman

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2010, 07:47:00 AM »
Well Giro's bio does say he's older than he looks.  It's possible that he indeed has been around long enough to have known Ciel.  It's also possible that Ciel really did live for quite a long time.  True she lived during a harsh time after the fall of Neo-Arcadia but she might have extended her life the way most humans do by ZX time with cyborg implants and full reploid bodies.

So it's possible that they knew each other by Ciel, Giro, or both being quite long lived.  Come to think of it Giro has a forehead marking and turned into a cyber elf when he died, so he's probably a reploid to begin with, and thus wouldn't show his age anyway.  Who knows, it's possible that Ciel BUILT Giro.  It would explain his resemblance to Zero and why he's compatible with Model Z.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2010, 06:39:04 AM »
Come to think of it Giro has a forehead marking and turned into a cyber elf when he died, so he's probably a reploid to begin with, and thus wouldn't show his age anyway.
There's no "probably" about it, Giro *IS* a Reploid.

However, the fact that he turns into a cyber-elf does not factor into that.  Machine-body humans can go the same way, as Hurricaune has both humans and Reploids imprisoned for her cyber-elf production.

Quote
Who knows, it's possible that Ciel BUILT Giro.  It would explain his resemblance to Zero and why he's compatible with Model Z.
Possible.  But I think Prairie would probably refer to Giro as family if that were the case.

Usage of Model Z is irrelevant to that, though.  ALL Biometal compatibility is determined by Albert (save Ashe who was unexpected).  Ciel didn't understand enough of the R.O.C.K. System to modify that aspect of it.

I don't know, Prairie made it sound like the order was addressed to Giro specifically:

"Calm down Aile! I don't know much about what's going on either. The one that gave Giro the order to protect you was the first commander."
Turn it around: You could also say that the order is addressing Aile specifically.  But we know that's not the case; Giro's disk profile lists him as caring for multiple children.

She speaks of Giro and Aile because it's what Aile is asking about.  The other Guardians, and the other children, are irrelevant to the discussion.  That's all.

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Offline Flame

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2010, 07:01:03 AM »
Wonder what happened to all those poor Orphans Giro was watching after he died? For that matter, what happened to his Business?
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Gaia

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2010, 07:14:53 AM »
Wonder what happened to all those poor Orphans Giro was watching after he died? For that matter, what happened to his Business?

The main character of the last game (pre-ZXA) took over in secret (Or Pararie, since she was absent from the game)? Someone's gonna fill that spot.  
Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
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One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

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Offline Fragman

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2010, 07:30:31 AM »
It's a crazy theory but I still wouldn't rule out Ciel building Zero.  Possibly in secret, keeping him under wraps for a while.  She didn't tell anyone she built Copy X after all.

My theory is Giro is Copy Zero.  Mind you, Ciel would have learned her lesson from the first time.  He looks like Zero and has his DNA data, but not his memories, and she didn't intend for him to ever think that he's Zero. 

His compatibility with Model Z is an unintended side effect.  Much like Ashe who can use Model A because she's related to Albert, Giro can use Model Z because he shares its DNA data.

If Giro were a copy of Zero, though Ciel would probably not tell him or anyone this.  He's just her attempt at getting Zero back, but isn't going to repeat her mistakes with Copy X.

Anyone that's my crazy pet theory.

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Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2010, 08:28:55 AM »
She didn't tell anyone she built Copy X after all.

I recall quite the opposite.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2010, 02:35:04 AM »
She told Zero, once near the end of the game.  She told him at no point any earlier, nor did she bring it up again.  No one in the base said "By the way X is a copy and Ciel built him."  Indeed would ANYONE trust the creator of their oppressor as the leader of their resistance?

Furthermore it seems most everyone under Copy X treats him as if he were the real X, and the neo-arcadian humans in Z4 just call him X or Master X, never Copy X.  I'd say Copy X kept his being a copy well under wraps.  If Copy X being her creation was ever revealed it wasn't until after the Zero series.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2010, 08:06:28 AM »
Not everyone knows, that is a given, but more than Ciel knows. Who do you think gave the order for construction? A ghost?

Try again.

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Offline Fragman

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2010, 11:58:59 AM »
Why so contrarian?  In either case Copy X's origin is very tightly under wraps.  It's clearly not public knowledge and it could just as well be the case for Giro.  I don't argue that it IS the case, just that the possibility exists, and there really isn't evidence to the contrary.  That's how pet theories work.  It's certainly less ridiculous than the cataclysm theory, or as far fetched as the Dr. Cossack built Axl Theory.

What we do know is:
Giro is a Reploid
He is stated to be older than he looks
He knew Ciel
He's the chosen one for Model Z

None of those are less than facts provided in the game its self.

My theory is just one possibility that fits with the known facts.  Unless we get ZX3 with more background on Giro, or some official word from Inafune, all we really can do is theorize.  Yes we could just all say "he's a random dude with no significant past who happened to pick up Model Z one day and met Ciel."  But really this board is here for discussion and if we all agreed on one thing, there wouldn't very well be a discussion to go on here.  Personally I'm just glad that the Zero collection seems to have also rekindled a little interest in the ZX series.

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Offline Zan

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2010, 01:49:00 PM »
"Wise beyond his years." =/= "Older than he looks."

And it was Albert that selected him as a Chosen One.

Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2010, 04:50:14 PM »
As one of Master Albert's Chosen Ones, Giro's life cycle settings were personally inspected by the Sage Trinity member. If Giro was indeed a Reploid created in secret, Albert could have discovered it easily.

She speaks of Giro and Aile because it's what Aile is asking about.  The other Guardians, and the other children, are irrelevant to the discussion.  That's all.

They are anything but irrelevant:

"The order was to protect anyone that survived the Maverick raid. At first I didn't understand why she would give such an order. But when I saw Giro transform into the Model Z Mega Man, I finally understood the reason. Survivors of Maverick raids share the ability to transform with the power of the Biometal. People like you and Giro. I'm telling you the truth when I say that's all I know. I have no idea why some are chosen to be Mega Men while others are not. I'm guessing the only one who knows the real truth behind all of this is Serpent."

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2010, 05:39:28 PM »
Quote
As one of Master Albert's Chosen Ones, Giro's life cycle settings were personally inspected by the Sage Trinity member. If Giro was indeed a Reploid created in secret, Albert could have discovered it easily.

But would Albert even care about that? Any special origins Girouette could have would only ensure he fits the requirements of a chosen one; someone to stands up to the irregulars, showing the desire to change the world.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2010, 05:54:52 PM »
But would Albert even care about that? Any special origins Girouette could have would only ensure he fits the requirements of a chosen one; someone to stands up to the irregulars, showing the desire to change the world.

I don't know if Albert would care, all I was saying is that trying to hide Giro's origins from someone who knows "everything about the world" would be a difficult (if not futile) effort.

If I were to speculate, I'd say that Albert would somehow try to take advantage of the knowledge, just like how he made use of the Biometals created by the first commander.

Offline Flame

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2010, 07:44:52 PM »
Making ANOTHER copy of a legendary reploid without his memories or personality is not "Learning from her mistake".

Its making the SAME mistake.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2010, 07:49:52 PM »
Not really, Girouette wasn't a world ruler, for one.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2010, 12:54:01 AM »
still, after one failed attempt at making a copy of a legendary hero went bad, I'd think she would think twice before attempting it again.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2010, 07:19:28 AM »
Learning from one's mistakes can mean never trying again, or trying again and getting it right.  She didn't set him up the rule the world, implant him with false memories, or do anything that would have resulted in what made Copy X a megalomaniacal man-child with a messiah complex.  Or maybe it's all the coffee that keeps Giro stable.

 Though I don't think Inafune was thinking that far ahead when he created Giro, and likely Giro's origins if revealed will be something made up on the spot.  Thus the wild theory that he's Copy Zero.

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Re: Is Ciel the first commander? And other related questions.
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2010, 01:27:34 PM »
I don't think Inafune was thinking anything when Inti thought up Girouette.