Author Topic: ZX Cameos  (Read 25771 times)

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Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2012, 08:14:38 PM »
How selfish of X.

So how does X create Elysium? Or doesn't he?

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Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2012, 10:27:53 PM »
I'd say the same about Zero, actually. But then I never bought the excuse that he needed to seal himself away to keep the world safe from his influence. After the first time he was sealed, he was brought back in a Copy body to take on Omega with X, so he doesn't have the virus to spread if he sneezes on the wireless internetz or something.

Frankly, they both needed to rest and just pass on the responsibility to new hunters, like Axl. If they were really serious about not wanting to fight, they would groom replacements from a willing and able troop of Maverick Hunters. They are in command of their own units. Sooner or later they have to realize that the world is bigger than them and they can't keep it clean by themselves.

I'm not sure who created Elysium, assuming it just started with one person. I guess that would be the original X.

Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2012, 12:05:57 AM »
I dunno man, they are leaps and bounds more advanced than the rest of the world. But I guess at some point they become dwarfed by modern technology.

Yea all this Zero and ZX stuff makes Legends timeline relevance harder to understand. I'm sure Zan knows.

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Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2012, 12:18:36 AM »
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Interesting. So they were just genuinely loyal to this "new" X and not what they thought was the real X.
it's funny how it works, because they are loyal to Original X as well as Copy X.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2012, 01:41:53 PM »
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After the first time he was sealed, he was brought back in a Copy body to take on Omega with X, so he doesn't have the virus to spread if he sneezes on the wireless internetz or something.

The second sealing is not about the virus.



Zero: As long as I'm around...the bloodstained history will repeat itself.
X: Something like that...what are you talking about, Zero!
Zero: I've been constantly thinking...  For whom...for what...must we Repliroids kill one another...  Even at such a time...you kept believing in humans...  I trust you as my friend...  So...the words of the humans whom you believe in...I want to believe in.



We had just witnessed Zero's power being used for mass destruction. Even though Omega and the Dark Elf were defeated, it is natural the human goverment now looks at Zero himself as a potential threat. He agrees; tired of fighting, finding no place for a war machine such as himself in the new world.

By comparison, Zero is rather optimistic about the first sealing. Trying to remove the virus from his systems, he had hoped that would bring an end to the conflict. He was wrong.

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How selfish of X.

So how does X create Elysium? Or doesn't he?
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Yea all this Zero and ZX stuff makes Legends timeline relevance harder to understand. I'm sure Zan knows.

It's not hard to understand. Zero and ZX serve to bridge the gap between X and DASH:



Zero 4 really fleshed out the human characters.

AIZU: This is something that Yabe (responsible for the original scenario of the Zero series) had been wanting to do. We wanted to take the humans that had been thus far living in relative peace and safety within the walls of Neo Arcadia and introduce them to Weil's dictatorship to sort of force them out into the wilds with the Reploids, thereby lowering themselves to refugee status and in a way bringing them down to what they considered the Reploids' level. It was out hope that ending the game in such a sad state of affairs would leave the stage open for the next game to take place in a world where humans and Reploids lived in harmony.

"The next game?"
AIZU: Well, this is just our own personal opinion, but the way we see it, the end of the Mega Man series has already been written in the form of [the] "Mega Man Legends" [series]. We feel that no matter how you continue the Mega Man series, you'll always end up at Legends. Therefore, we feel that everything that we have created has, in a way, laid the ground work for that world to come into existence. We have to make sure that things like the environment and human-Reploid relations that we establish will be able to make a comfortable transition to that future world.




Since Neo Arcadian times, we see the same "ruins" from Rockman DASH appear: remnants of an era of war. The four great forests surrounding Neo Arcadia - Dysis (West), Anatre (East), Notus (North), ???? (South) - contain ruins deliberately designed in the style of Rockman DASH. By the end of Z4, and the jump to ZX, all of Neo Arcadia became ruin.

As for Elysium. Understand first and foremost that its original name is ヘブン "Heaven". This is indeed the same term used by X in X5. But that is in an alternate ending; in the actual chain of events that name had not come to his mind. X's Elysium became Neo Arcadia.

In ZX, we are introduced to another "Heaven".



Serpent: Project Haven is now in its final stage! Gaze upon the beginning of a brand new age!
Serpent: By joining us, the weak are freed from their suffering! The chosen one, Mega Man, will save the people! That is the glory of Project Haven!



Project Haven
プロジェクト・ヘブン
"Project Heaven"

The creation of a new world, where humanity is protected by Rockmen.



Serpent: A Maverick!? Me!? How dare you call me a Maverick! You're the one stopping progress. You're the one denying change. Maybe you're the Maverick! People and society are destined for change! They must shed their hate-filled hearts and suffering bodies. We must move forward! We must have change!
Serpent: On a planet... Life is born... Humans and machines... Waves of war and peace roll on. And in every age, a fool like you tries to fight it. You don't want to see anyone get hurt. You want to protect the ones you care about. You don't want to lose anything. By acting on that desire, you continue to make choices that avoid the pain. The Mega Man destined to save the world? Unchanging life... A world devoid of the light of hope. What's the point!?
Serpent: The destiny of destruction... Still awaits... So long as you have hearts, hate will lurk in the shadows... You who possess the wellspring of emotion known as the heart... You are the true Mavericks!





A cold and sterile, 'perfect' world. Does that not sound familiar? Albert and Thomas both share this notion; this world must be reset.

Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2012, 03:28:16 PM »
The second sealing is not about the virus.



Zero: As long as I'm around...the bloodstained history will repeat itself.
X: Something like that...what are you talking about, Zero!
Zero: I've been constantly thinking...  For whom...for what...must we Repliroids kill one another...  Even at such a time...you kept believing in humans...  I trust you as my friend...  So...the words of the humans whom you believe in...I want to believe in.



We had just witnessed Zero's power being used for mass destruction. Even though Omega and the Dark Elf were defeated, it is natural the human goverment now looks at Zero himself as a potential threat. He agrees; tired of fighting, finding no place for a war machine such as himself in the new world.

By comparison, Zero is rather optimistic about the first sealing. Trying to remove the virus from his systems, he had hoped that would bring an end to the conflict. He was wrong.


Frankly, I share in X's incredulity on the matter.

From what I understand of the drama tapes, Omega was built around Zero's original body. This was Weil's doing; I don't remember why he wanted to do this. X opposed Weil's plan to control all Reploids using Omega, so he fights and defeats him with Zero, and the human government exiles Weil and Omega to an eternity in an orbiting prison. Why they thought that was a good idea, I also don't know; something about the pro-human government at the time not wanting to use the death penalty on Weil because he was human, I think, but choosing not to destroy Omega or castrate his mind powers is also inexplicable.

While it might be natural for the gov't to see Zero as a risk, it's also irrational. I also don't see why Zero would think that by sticking around, the "bloodstained history will repeat itself." The virus that he was used for was no longer a strike against him, although it still existed in his old body for people like Weil to take advantage of. That there will always be people like Weil doesn't make the existence of someone like "copy" Zero a liability.

X is just as much a war machine as Zero is, and yet he's not considered a threat. Even Sigma, the former commander of the Maverick Hunters, wasn't considered a threat until it was too late. I don't put much stock into a gov't that decides to seal a capable Maverick Hunter and an accomplished hero while at the same time giving two war criminals a live, eternal imprisonment on an orbital prison colony. The only real justification I see for the second sealing (other than plotholes) is that Zero wanted it. He didn't want to live anymore, but he didn't want to die either. Either way, it's clear he was scared of being used again by someone enamored with the "power of Zero", but he held out some hope that there would be a future that he would no longer threaten.

Offline Zan

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2012, 05:44:58 PM »
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and the human government exiles Weil and Omega to an eternity in an orbiting prison. Why they thought that was a good idea, I also don't know;

Dr. Vile wasn't sent to space like Omega. Omega was punished through official channels, not so for Vile. They threw him out of Neo Arcadia to rot. He had to survive in a wasteland devoid of food and water. By the curse of his rejuvenating armor they made him feel the pain of dying continuously. It's punishment and torture for someone who by his old age couldn't be imprisoned for more than his lifespan allowed. Of course, it's also expected this would leave him a broken man unable to stand up against Neo Arcadia ever again.

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X is just as much a war machine as Zero is, and yet he's not considered a threat. Even Sigma, the former commander of the Maverick Hunters, wasn't considered a threat until it was too late. I don't put much stock into a gov't that decides to seal a capable Maverick Hunter and an accomplished hero while at the same time giving two war criminals a live, eternal imprisonment on an orbital prison colony. The only real justification I see for the second sealing (other than plotholes) is that Zero wanted it. He didn't want to live anymore, but he didn't want to die either. Either way, it's clear he was scared of being used again by someone enamored with the "power of Zero", but he held out some hope that there would be a future that he would no longer threaten.

At the time, X himself has become a political force. His organization provided security for all that suffered in the war. All the same, the current government is brought into heavy discredit by Vile's treason (he tricked them into allowing his creation of Omega). Because of this, X's Neo Arcadia replaced the old.

This means the decision to spare Omega is X's. Good ole compassionate X. Dr. Vile, however, was left at hands not so merciful. Zero likewise hears the voices of people wanting him gone, X contests this, but Zero himself makes the final choice for his own reasons.

Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2012, 07:34:43 PM »
One should also not underestimate X's image compared to Zero's. X and Zero are both Combat Reploids of the highest and deadliest caliber, but they have both very different images, particularly in the public eye.

Zero is looked at as a monster, a demon with unparalleled combat skill who kills and slaughters his enemies without hesitation or compassion. He projects a cold, hard, unfeeling personality, and definitely strikes a VERY imposing silhouette, with his crimson colored armor, broad shoulders, long blonde mane, and spiked helmet.

He is also of shady origins, much like X, being a highly advanced relic of a bygone century, however with no known creator, and a bloodstained discovery, in which he was a rampaging Maverick. Of course, that last part is not entirely common knowledge, but by the time of the Elf Wars, where all on Zero was laid bare with the discovery of his origins, I'm sure it wouldn't leave a good taste in people's mouths, much less in Zero's own.

X on the other hand, has pretty much the opposite effect. He acts and emotes on the same level as a a Human, is known to be very friendly, very compassionate and caring for others, and is a serene blue color, with a much sleeker, rounded design. He is known to have been created by the Father of Robotics, Dr. Light, and is known for disliking violence and having a tendency to hesitate in combat, or try to negotiate whenever possible.

His combat style also, leads to a difference in view. whereas Zero is a close ranged melee fighter who is frightening with a sword and is right in the middle of the blood soaked front lines, X is a long distanced shooter, who is distanced from the death.

Then there is the fact that Zero has been used various times as the object of catastrophe. He was the motivation behind the Eurasia colony drop that nearly decimated the Earth, which resulted in a virus with an eerily similar energy reading as him, (which also took his form) and the cause and motivations behind the Nightmare Virus and Gate's insanity. His body was used to create the Devil Reploid, Omega, and the Dark Elf, both of which arose in response to a way to deal with Mavericks caused by the Sigma Virus, which was discovered to have come from Zero all along, and spread by him, also making him the reason for Sigma's going Maverick and becoming the worst terrorist madman the world ever saw.

It's pretty obvious why people would look at him kinda funny, when pretty much because of him, 60% of Humanity and 90% of Reploids were wiped out by an apocalyptic war that also ravaged the planet and left most of it a wasteland.

X meanwhile, through all this, became a politician and was beloved by all for his personality and heroic exploits, and therefore once the war was over, everyone united under him and became the Leader of what was left of the world.

I mean, sure, he would have preferred Zero stay along with him, but he doesn't have NEARLY the same issues Zero had after all was said and done.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2012, 03:04:50 AM »
Dr. Vile wasn't sent to space like Omega. Omega was punished through official channels, not so for Vile. They threw him out of Neo Arcadia to rot. He had to survive in a wasteland devoid of food and water. By the curse of his rejuvenating armor they made him feel the pain of dying continuously. It's punishment and torture for someone who by his old age couldn't be imprisoned for more than his lifespan allowed. Of course, it's also expected this would leave him a broken man unable to stand up against Neo Arcadia ever again.

Clearly, the judicial branch neither understood the persistence of the human spirit nor seen Highlander.

They also didn't seem to have any qualms about cruel and unusual(ly powerful) punishment, when it came to Dr. Bile. I'd love to hear the reason why he was too bad for the death penalty or life imprisonment. "No, no, he has to live in an eternal purgatory because we want to play Abrahamic God in this case." Nice job, douchebags. Your immensely irrational, vengeful punishment bred the worst madman the world has ever seen since Dr. Wily.

At the time, X himself has become a political force. His organization provided security for all that suffered in the war. All the same, the current government is brought into heavy discredit by Vile's treason (he tricked them into allowing his creation of Omega). Because of this, X's Neo Arcadia replaced the old.

This means the decision to spare Omega is X's. Good ole compassionate X. Dr. Vile, however, was left at hands not so merciful. Zero likewise hears the voices of people wanting him gone, X contests this, but Zero himself makes the final choice for his own reasons.

Ah, so not only was the old human government replaced, but X was the selected regent of the new one? Interesting. In that case, I can understand X's decision to spare Omega: he is a reflection of Zero. If Zero, the source of the Maverick Virus, could be rehabilitated back into society and be a worthwhile member of it, than why not Omega?

But then this throws into sharp contrast all of the Mavericks X himself executed in the name of keeping the peace. You might argue that his hand was forced most of the time, but it still means that him sparing Mavericks is a rare exception to the rule of retiring them. I wonder why Omega--arguably as dangerous a Maverick as either Sigma or Zero--fell into that category. What could X have seen in him that warranted imprisonment instead of destruction? You don't shelve something you don't intend to revisit or save, you dispose of it. What was the plan, and why/how was he forgotten until Weil got to him? And how did Weil reintegrate himself into society well enough to acquire the resources to free Omega and later take control of Neo Arcadia? Wouldn't he have been branded an undesirable and thrown back out, or did he use a clever disguise?

Massive amounts of material

That's a really good explanation. The only thing I'd argue is that the difference in combat style is negligent with regards to distance. It's a minor detail; they both take on Mavericks and other threats at the same distance. X is just used as an high-altitude bomber when the occasion calls for it.

Also, let's not leave out other details: several of his armors clear the screen in a devastating fashion, and one of his more menacing acquired weapons is a giant bulldozing boulder.

I guess X can be called a politician in the interim between Mega Man X and Mega Man Zero. It's a shame his impact as a social leader was relegated to the background between the series. I idealize him as someone who doesn't just follow orders or let himself get trapped in dilemmas. Seeing him in a more effective decision-making role would be pretty gratifying. At least moreso than whatever X7 was.

Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2012, 03:57:02 AM »
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Clearly, the judicial branch neither understood the persistence of the human spirit nor seen Highlander.
You assume he was actually put through the judicial system and not handed over to an angry mob of survivors who declared him guilty without trial and just went straight to the worst, cruelest possible punishment. And it isnt unlikely to think that the experience would leave him broken. Any normal person would. But Weil was simply not a normal person. His burning hatred and desire for revenge kept his mind intact, although he lost any screws he had left.

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But then this throws into sharp contrast all of the Mavericks X himself executed in the name of keeping the peace. You might argue that his hand was forced most of the time, but it still means that him sparing Mavericks is a rare exception to the rule of retiring them. I wonder why Omega--arguably as dangerous a Maverick as either Sigma or Zero--fell into that category.

Most mavericks fight to the death, and die, or even if not maverick, usually fight to the death for their honor or similar reasons. Only Dynamo is smart enough to retreat.

Omega is powerful enough, (and also has rejuvenating qualities to his exterior shell) that even after a final strike from X and Zero, he is not dead, merely disabled. Do keep in mind that they didnt even damage the body within the shell, just disable the shell. So they put him in a rocket and launched him into orbit for his sentence. He regenerated in that timespan.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2012, 06:09:18 PM »
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They also didn't seem to have any qualms about cruel and unusual(ly powerful) punishment, when it came to Dr. Bile. I'd love to hear the reason why he was too bad for the death penalty or life imprisonment. "No, no, he has to live in an eternal purgatory because we want to play Abrahamic God in this case." Nice job, douchebags. Your immensely irrational, vengeful punishment bred the worst madman the world has ever seen since Dr. Wily.

What Flame said; the angry mob got to him.

I'd also reckon that Vile's crime deserved a greater punishment than death. As such, the death penalty is out of the question, and Vile's obvious mortality as an old man drastically cuts down the duration of life imprisonment. According to the people of that time, he needed to rot in hell for all eternity.

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What was the plan, and why/how was he forgotten until Weil got to him? And how did Weil reintegrate himself into society well enough to acquire the resources to free Omega and later take control of Neo Arcadia? Wouldn't he have been branded an undesirable and thrown back out, or did he use a clever disguise?

Vile would be considered dead in current time. Furthermore, he gained access to Omega by hacking the forbidden arc's orbital program. His reintegration into society was shown in Z3, where he uses the revived Copy-X to gain leverage.

Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2012, 06:55:42 PM »
You assume he was actually put through the judicial system and not handed over to an angry mob of survivors who declared him guilty without trial and just went straight to the worst, cruelest possible punishment. And it isnt unlikely to think that the experience would leave him broken. Any normal person would. But Weil was simply not a normal person. His burning hatred and desire for revenge kept his mind intact, although he lost any screws he had left.

Give a person an eternity to endure hardship, and they'll find a way. Guaranteed. Especially someone of Weil's ambition. I think death would've sent the message well enough. And if they really wanted to play God and turn Weil into a cursed Boogieman who wanders the wastelands, why didn't they pick a place that was truly isolated and desolate? Like the moon? Or Antarctica? Ah well, I guess I shouldn't expect the angry mob to think this sort of thing through. Or create an armor that makes someone live forever.

By the way, where was X's compassion then?

Most mavericks fight to the death, and die, or even if not maverick, usually fight to the death for their honor or similar reasons. Only Dynamo is smart enough to retreat.

I don't think it would've been beyond X's ability to subdue Mavericks without killing them. Incorporating some kind of stun weapon into X's arsenal could add some depth into both the story and the boss fights.

Omega is powerful enough, (and also has rejuvenating qualities to his exterior shell) that even after a final strike from X and Zero, he is not dead, merely disabled. Do keep in mind that they didnt even damage the body within the shell, just disable the shell. So they put him in a rocket and launched him into orbit for his sentence. He regenerated in that timespan.

Probably would've been a good idea to strip the shell before they sent him off into space. Also transferring Omega's consciousness out of Zero's original body into a new one and destroying Zero's old shell. This would've also been a great opportunity to offer Weil an alternative to an eternity of suffering in exchange for help on destroying Omega's shell. Remember that even with the Dark Elf in Z3, "copy" Zero was still able to destroy it. And the original Zero beneath it. If he could do that by himself, then both him and X should've been able to annihilate Omega's shell.

Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2012, 03:30:56 AM »
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Give a person an eternity to endure hardship, and they'll find a way. Guaranteed..
Not quite. This is far more than just hardship. I think you are not fully appreciating what his punishment entailed. he was constantly dying. Constantly in death, as he put it, not quite dead, not quite alive. and he was tossed into a barren wasteland. to suffer for all eternity.

 
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Especially someone of Weil's ambition.
Ill admit they definitely underestimated his will.

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I think death would've sent the message well enough.
You can't send someone a message if they are dead. Death is a quick fast punishment. They wanted him to suffer, and suffer horribly and cruelly. A life sentence would not have cut it either, since he was already old, and would not last nearly long enough, nor would it be horrible enough. Again, they wanted him to suffer, and suffer horribly.

 
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And if they really wanted to play God and turn Weil into a cursed Boogieman who wanders the wastelands, why didn't they pick a place that was truly isolated and desolate? Like the moon? Or Antarctica?
I don't think you really understand just how the Earth was left after the Elf Wars. it was left barren and inhospitable. There's a reason Neo Arcadia is the last bastion of Humanity. There is literally nowhere else in the world to live that can support any kind of life.  in Z4, Area Zero was the hot button issue it was, because it was the only place outside of neo Arcadia that had the means to support life due to Eurasia's environmental system being left running after the crash for over a century undisturbed.

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By the way, where was X's compassion then?
X didn't get to Weil. We dont really know the circumstances behind all of it. But since X and Zero were fighting Omega head on, they were able to take him in and legally try him. Weil however, was instead turned upon by the Reploids Zero turned against him with Dark Elf. And the survivors who got to him wherever he was, didnt hand him over, and there was nothing to be done by whatever was left of the government.

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Probably would've been a good idea to strip the shell before they sent him off into space. Also transferring Omega's consciousness out of Zero's original body into a new one and destroying Zero's old shell. This would've also been a great opportunity to offer Weil an alternative to an eternity of suffering in exchange for help on destroying Omega's shell. Remember that even with the Dark Elf in Z3, "copy" Zero was still able to destroy it. And the original Zero beneath it. If he could do that by himself, then both him and X should've been able to annihilate Omega's shell.
Do note most of the world was left in ruin. I doubt they had that kind of technology left by that point to do that. And even if he was a bastard monster, he was still a Reploid. X is compassionate to a fault. and keep in mind Zero's body was accuired by Weil for Omega legally. he asked the Govt for it, they gave it to him. And Zero gave his body to them to study. So Omega has a legal right to exist as he is. Again, what it all boils down to is the underestimation of Weil's will. Without Weil, omega would never have crashed back on Earth, and would have remained in orbital prison.

Everything boils back down to Weil in the end.
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What was the plan, and why/how was he forgotten until Weil got to him? And how did Weil reintegrate himself into society well enough to acquire the resources to free Omega and later take control of Neo Arcadia? Wouldn't he have been branded an undesirable and thrown back out, or did he use a clever disguise?
Zan aleady got to this, but ill add to it.
Weil was punished illegally. He was not given a trial, and was punished by the equivalent of a lynch mob. So from a legal standpoint, despite being a horrible person who deserved every bit of what he got, he has the right to come back to Neo Arcadia whenever he wants. he also manipulated Copy X's naivete. he pretty much made Copy X "owe him one", by resurrecting him. And played himself the nice guy who has payed his debt to society. And Copy X believed him. He trusted Weil enough to give him control over his armies.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2012, 05:01:19 PM »
Not quite. This is far more than just hardship. I think you are not fully appreciating what his punishment entailed. he was constantly dying. Constantly in death, as he put it, not quite dead, not quite alive. and he was tossed into a barren wasteland. to suffer for all eternity.

My point is the mind is resilient, though, given enough time. Yes, it is an extreme kind of hell that is made to break someone, but I think it's different from the kind of powerlessness someone feels when they're thrown into solitary confinement. Weil suffers, but with his horrid immortality and his exile to a vast wasteland, he is now no longer bound by time or space. He can do more than someone locked in a cell for any amount of time, including breaking into one if he wants.

I get that the Reploids wanted him to suffer, but giving him--or anyone--immortality makes him a threat further down the line. It's an extraordinarily nonsensical effort to go to for the sake of retribution. Death is terrifying and painful enough if you do it cruelly enough, and ...

You can't send someone a message if they are dead.

... the point isn't rehabilitation. The message it would send is to anyone who would try something like that again. I'll grant that an eternity as a zombie is a fate worse than death, but at least then there's a chance you can change your situation or get revenge, given enough time. You can't revive or avenge yourself when you're dead.

I don't think you really understand just how the Earth was left after the Elf Wars. it was left barren and inhospitable.

I didn't say hospitable. I said isolated, as in can't ever associate with society again.

X didn't get to Weil. We dont really know the circumstances behind all of it. But since X and Zero were fighting Omega head on, they were able to take him in and legally try him. Weil however, was instead turned upon by the Reploids Zero turned against him with Dark Elf. And the survivors who got to him wherever he was, didnt hand him over, and there was nothing to be done by whatever was left of the government.

So he wasn't accounted for? Or perhaps he was pronounced dead?

Do note most of the world was left in ruin. I doubt they had that kind of technology left by that point to do that.

Considering a custom-built immortality suit was feasible, I doubt that. But I was thinking of a more brute-force approach to removing the shell.

And even if he was a bastard monster, he was still a Reploid. X is compassionate to a fault. and keep in mind Zero's body was accuired by Weil for Omega legally. he asked the Govt for it, they gave it to him. And Zero gave his body to them to study. So Omega has a legal right to exist as he is. Again, what it all boils down to is the underestimation of Weil's will. Without Weil, omega would never have crashed back on Earth, and would have remained in orbital prison.

Everything boils back down to Weil in the end.

No, I don't think Omega had any right to retain the power to remove every Reploid's rights. He's too dangerous as-is. If retaining his shell and remaining in Zero's body enabled him to use that kind of power at will, then an appropriate punishment would be to take that away by any means necessary. You don't allow a convicted shooter or arsonist to keep their toys in jail. He can stick around, but not with the same power he used to basically commit a crime against Reploid-kind. He'd be lucky to stay alive.

If he was allowed to stay as is because of X's compassion, then X isn't compassionate to a fault. He's a moron. Compassion has nothing to do with it.

Zan aleady got to this, but ill add to it. Weil was punished illegally. He was not given a trial, and was punished by the equivalent of a lynch mob. So from a legal standpoint, despite being a horrible person who deserved every bit of what he got, he has the right to come back to Neo Arcadia whenever he wants. he also manipulated Copy X's naivete. he pretty much made Copy X "owe him one", by resurrecting him. And played himself the nice guy who has payed his debt to society. And Copy X believed him. He trusted Weil enough to give him control over his armies.

I'll give you his opportunistic use of Copy X, but as for the part in bold ... everyone was okay with that? I thought he was exiled. I don't doubt he could've snuck in and revived Copy X, but if someone saw him, wouldn't he have been thrown out?


Offline Zan

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2012, 05:51:30 PM »
Quote
... the point isn't rehabilitation. The message it would send is to anyone who would try something like that again. I'll grant that an eternity as a zombie is a fate worse than death, but at least then there's a chance you can change your situation or get revenge, given enough time. You can't revive or avenge yourself when you're dead.

This problem is one backwards of storytelling. For Vile, Omega, Dark Elf, the Baby Elves, they have to justify their presence during the actual ZERO-series one way or the other. Why not have all these forces destroyed in the Elf Wars? Because then we wouldn't have them as the present day antagonists.


Vile's big loophole is the illegal means by which they exiled him. For Omega, I reckon that Zero only managed to destroy the shell because he willingly discarded it by advancing to his next form (combat prowess over regeneration.) Dark Elf naturally got sealed separately from Omega to rob him of most of his power. Allthough, I do wonder if Neo Arcadia might have wanted to use them as actual military or scientific assets at some point.

Quote
I'll give you his opportunistic use of Copy X, but as for the part in bold ... everyone was okay with that? I thought he was exiled. I don't doubt he could've snuck in and revived Copy X, but if someone saw him, wouldn't he have been thrown out?

None knew his identity.

Harpuia:
A Neo Arcadian?! Who is this guy?!


When he learned who Weil was, Harpuia objected. But nobody else but X has a say in the matter.

Copy X:
His banishment did not follow official ch-channels. Just because
what he did resulted i-in a terrible calamity... Do-does not mean
that banishing him was justified. He has returned to Neo Arcadia
in a legal manner. What reason-n is there to drive him out?

Don't worr-rr-rry. He learned many things from his mistakes of
the past. He'll do things right th-this time.

Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2012, 06:58:01 PM »
Keep in mind that Neo Arcadia hid all traces of Weil's existence, as well as ANYTHING related to him and the war, from history. They sunk the library for that reason, since it contained records of Weil's sin, and Project Elpis. When Harpuia led those Reploids on the expedition to the sunken library, they were later all accused as Mavericks and executed to keep them quiet on whatever they may have seen there that could have been related to that.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2012, 07:09:19 PM »
Its the preceding government that erased all the records. Their support of Vile left a great stain on their reputation that they'd rather not reveal to the world.

Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2012, 07:17:09 PM »
Copy X's Neo Arcadia seemed eager to follow through though, what with the execution of all who went to the library.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2012, 08:17:55 PM »
Well, that helps make more sense of the back story. Thanks guys.

I still think the eternity armor and leaving Omega's shell intact were bad ideas, but the lore is more complicated than I realized.

Offline Flame

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2012, 11:53:16 PM »
Not to mention, like Zan said, you need a reason for them to be in the story as villains.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

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Re: ZX Cameos
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2012, 07:40:16 PM »
The word you're looking for is "narrative", I think.

I just didn't like the narrative, so I felt like tearing it apart. If it works by ignoring it, or saying, "but then the movie will be over!" then does it really work?

I dunno. I just don't love the handheld games.