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Offline Zan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 09:38:05 PM »
MegaMan (200X) / Powered Up (20XX)
>
MegaMan 2 (200X)
>
World (200X+a)
>
MegaMan 3 (20XX)
>
World 2 (200X+a/20XX, several months after World)
>
MegaMan 4 (20XX, 1 year after Mega Man 3)
>
Rockboard (20XX)
>
World 3  (200X+a/20XX, several months after World 2)
>
MegaMan 5 (20XX, 2 months after Mega Man 4)
>
Soccer (20XX, several months after MegaMan 4)
>
World 4 (20XX, several months after World 3)
>
Super Adventure (20XX, 3 years after a flashback sequence of World to MegaMan3)
>
World 5 (20XX, several months after World 4)
>
MegaMan 6 (20XX, one year after the World Robot Union is established)
>
MegaMan 7 (20XX)
>
MegaMan 8  (20XX)
>
MegaMan 9  (20XX)

--------------------------------------------

For the 7+ stories, several possibilities exist. To figure out which works best, we must establish the connecting stories first:

NapalmMan's museum:
8>BnC>MMnB

MegaMan and Bass:
8>MMnB>CftF>9

Battle and Fighters:
7>PB>PF

Bass' loyalty and Wily's countermeasure :
8>BnC>RnF>PB>PF

Roll's primary design:
9 || (PB>PF)

Wily's apology:
8>MMnB>9

Duo's arrival and leave are not included as a story arc because Duo is occasionally patrolling Earth and thus has the luxury of being around or absent as he pleases. The only conclusion that can be made from Duo's presence is that it's a game that occurs after 8. But games without Duo aren't nessecarily before 8 either.

--------------------------------------------

Connecting the above, I came up with three timelines that seem to follow all criteria the best:

MegaMan 8 (20XX)
>
Battle and Chase (20XX)
>
MegaMan and Bass (20XX)
>
Challenger from the future  (200X/20XX)
>
MegaMan 9 (20XX)
>
Power Battle (20XX)
>
Power Fighters (20XX)

||

MegaMan 8 (20XX)
>
Battle and Chase (20XX)
>
MegaMan and Bass (20XX)
>
Challenger from the future (200X/20XX)
>
Power Battle (20XX)
>
Power Fighters (20XX)
>
MegaMan 9 (20XX)

||

MegaMan 8 (20XX)
>
Battle and Chase (20XX)
>
MegaMan and Bass (20XX)
>
Challenger from the future (200X/20XX)
>
Power Battle (20XX)
>
MegaMan 9 (20XX)
>
Power Fighters (20XX)


Challenger from the future is a unique game in that Wily is not the adversary. Therefor it is the only game allowed to be in time period between Wily's apology and MM9. However, it is unclear which apology MM9 references in its introduction sequence, it could be PF, it could be PB or it could be MMnB. Within MM9's presentation, it would appear to reference MMnB, but that causes a design discrepancy with Wily. On the other hand, it's only MMnB in which Wily's talk with Rock was not scripted and therefore completely open to interpretation. Finally, MM9's reference might not even be about any event we've witnessed in the past. All in all, the interpretation of MM9 in relation to games after MMnB is what makes all the difference between the three timelines.

Aside from the matter of Wily's retirement, there is one other thing that could implicate a subtle timeline reference; Bass' schematics on Wily's monitor in MM9. No official explanation for that has been told to us, but one could make a case that this implicates Wily is researching what makes Bass special and learning from his mistakes. In PF Wily thus reveals he created a new energy source from this research that makes Bassnium obsolete. Going by that argument, PF is naturally after MM9. Even so, that still leaves us with the mystery of trying to connect PB to MM9. With Wily threatening Bass with a new robot he's creating, it could go either way.

My personal preference is to go with the first timeline even though there is a design discrepancy with Wily. This is because a case can be made that Wily's designs is completely artist's choice and not story related (See: X8). Afterall, the NES sprites depicting the events of MMnB and MM8 have not attempted to alter Wily ever so slightly to match with his design in those games, this despite the attention to detail in Wily even changing pants colors in the different NES games.

johnboy3434; I hope this helps with you trying to place the lesser known games. I'd personally just make a note of in which general frame they could fit, but I suppose it might be possible to pin them down exactly somehow.

Marshmallowman; do you happen to have any info about that drama track with Roll and the mm6 fortress boss? It strikes me as of particular importance to reevaluate this retro post 7 adventure now that the retro post MMnB adventure that is MM9 has been released. It's already made me reevaluate PB to be more likely after MMnB, so who knows what we'll come up now.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2008, 03:59:08 AM »
Thanks to Vixy's scans from the old board, I can say that in the R9 Arranged booklet the developers mentioned that Forte was undergoing some adjustments, with that being why he was absent from this adventure and why he was featured on the monitor. Um, guess we're to presume he got out alright before the place blew up.

RFWS's given date of 200X would mean all games before it happened in the first decade of the millenium, which conflicts with the notion of ten years between R1 and R8 (which might not be all that accurate anyway)... unless it happens before R8. But I'm guessing you're ignoring its given date for sake of placing it somewhere that's otherwise more logical.

I know a bit about the drama tracks, but nothing I haven't brought up before. It definitely takes place after Mr. X is exposed to be Wily in 6, and after the Mechazaurus fight, if not after the game itself. Wily doesn't start out in prison though. Rock uses some older special weapons like Atomic Fire and Star Crush, as well as the Power Rockman armor. No characters or weapons from R7 (Auto, Forte, etc.) and beyond are mentioned. Reggae is in it. Roll behaves pretty childishly (only mentioning because her R&F bio mentions her growing in maturity lately). I can't think of much else relevant to placing it. It might be better to view it outside of the game canon but lump it in with other canons, like being a part of the Upon A Star anime universe, where he exists in the game world. That might actually work better with the last track on the CD, where they have the music countdown and Rock and Wily both break the 4th wall speaking directly to the fans. But if we needed to put it somewhere, I still like it being sometime after 7, and probably before 8. Where it's still quite possible that Power Battle would fit in that gulf also, as has been popularly viewed for years.

Offline Gauntlet101010

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2008, 04:10:38 AM »
About the placement of the PC games, if one considers that Rush is on the box art even though he's not in the game itself, it could really go either way  on its placement before or after R3 depending on what one wants to consider relevant.
Consoider also that Spark Man's art was seen at the back of PC1.  I guess they wanted us to think that was Voltman (despite Voltman not looking remotely like Sparkman).  This is not to be confused with PC3 where they want us to believe the silver Spark Man on th box is Bit Man.

Technically you're right tho.  Rush is on the box, even though the game mechanics don't include the slide.

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2008, 04:11:07 AM »
Thanks to Vixy's scans from the old board

Lemme bring them back again. They were on the site folder the whole time:
http://lol.rockmanpm.com/R9Arrange/
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Offline Zan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2008, 02:38:40 PM »
Quote
RFWS's given date of 200X would mean all games before it happened in the first decade of the millenium, which conflicts with the notion of ten years between R1 and R8 (which might not be all that accurate anyway)... unless it happens before R8. But I'm guessing you're ignoring its given date for sake of placing it somewhere that's otherwise more logical.

No matter where you place the WS game, the 200X to 20XX oddity remains. Since it's MM3 that first uses 20XX. But at the same time World3 continues to use 200X+a. Forte's presence simply dictates 20XX instead of 200X, though.

I think we should give the WS game some credit though. Wily is 57 as of RnF, yet supposedly "10 years before 8" Wily and Light looked the exact same. They really aged badly if we're to believe 8...  Ariga's megamix also seem to cooperate that not that many years have passed, what with Kalinka still looking in her teens, but slightly older than before. Of course, being a manga one never knows how much it applies to the games.

From the games alone, it's certainly possible. We have the 3 years to SAR, but for the rest of the timeline, anything before the flashback is unknown. After SAR we have 6 months confirmed. The additional year after the World Robot Union foundation is too variable to call confirmed and all games after 7 are unknowns.

Then there's the pre 1 backstory, were those ever said to be in 200X and not in 19XX? We know from EXE that Capcom does not shy away from overwriting our timeline with high tech innovations. Like Soul Server's existence 30 years before EXE5. It should be entirely possible that a robot like Blues would have been invented in 19XX.

Quote
Where it's still quite possible that Power Battle would fit in that gulf also, as has been popularly viewed for years.

While it's certainly quite true that PB's timeline placement is "after 7", we must also take into account it's not necessarily "before 8." In the past things like Wily and Roll's designs would make it so. But 9 introduces a whole new interpretation of the canon by allowing retro designs after 8. Not to mention that PF also pulls off a post 8 game with retro designs. That's all to do with the unique nature of the arcade games. If things like PF and Soccer can get away with not including the chronologically previous game's robot masters, then PB can as well. Different from the GB games where the gameplay mechanics solidify the timeline.

Taking PB from a strict story perspective, we must simply choose to keep it's connection with PF in tact. As the arcade series of games, PF is its sequel and we see a flow of story elements from the introduction of worrying to Zero's creation. King certainly confuses things, but within these games as a series, one can't doubt that it is Zero they were alluding to. The storyline of Bass' betrayal and Wily's attitude toward him also seem to correspond with a game closely related to PF and later than RnF. Wily was more than willing to have Forte alongside King, where he is discarding Forte for a new robot in PB and PF.

As for the drama track, if we were to include it, a 7 to 8 placement would be preferred. Mostly by virtue of when the story was made and Roll's maturity later on. The fact that nothing really else is around that time except possibly the first anual Battle and Chase and maybe PB makes it fit gently there. (Unless we disregard it completely.)

Quote
Thanks to Vixy's scans from the old board, I can say that in the R9 Arranged booklet the developers mentioned that Forte was undergoing some adjustments, with that being why he was absent from this adventure and why he was featured on the monitor. Um, guess we're to presume he got out alright before the place blew up.

Good to know why Forte was absent, even if it's a silly explanation. I do still wonder if that relates at all to the scene in PF with Wily working on Forte and talking of Fortenium. Certainly having Forte physically around to study will help Wily's creation of Zero. Not to mention, if Wily would have said he'd kill Forte using a new robot derived from studying Forte, you'd think the guy would be more reluctant to let Wily to his thing to him.

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2008, 03:18:15 AM »
No matter where you place the WS game, the 200X to 20XX oddity remains. Since it's MM3 that first uses 20XX. But at the same time World3 continues to use 200X+a. Forte's presence simply dictates 20XX instead of 200X, though.
Maybe the first X in 20XX means 0.

Offline Zan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2008, 05:02:17 PM »
Thanks for stating the obvious.... What'd you think the following paragraphs were about?

To reiterate, the first paragraph is simply about the fact that Capcom deliberately started using 20XX and that there's no need to place it with the other 200X games, because Forte's initial appearance was in 20XX.

Also, as a side note to that, Rockman Rockman uses 20XX in place of Rockman1's 200X.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2008, 06:50:49 PM »
Quote
No matter where you place the WS game, the 200X to 20XX oddity remains. Since it's MM3 that first uses 20XX. But at the same time World3 continues to use 200X+a. Forte's presence simply dictates 20XX instead of 200X, though.

The +a could bring it over to the next decade, or the first X can be 0 as already stated, but there's no +anything for the in-game and manual story of RFWS, which agree on that game taking place in 200X. If you ignore that they say that, you're ignoring the game's canonically stated timeframe. On the other hand if we accept it then all previous dates in other games have to be 200X as well, which contradicts the statement of the 10 years having passed between 1 and 8, unless WS happens before 8, which contradicts it being a pseudo-sequel to R&F. To place it anywhere we have to turn a blind eye to something, there is no way around it.

Quote
I think we should give the WS game some credit though. Wily is 57 as of RnF, yet supposedly "10 years before 8" Wily and Light looked the exact same. They really aged badly if we're to believe 8...

Aged well, you mean. Anti-aging effects might have some stunning advances in their universe. The art styles of the main characters have changed many times over the years, leaving no consistent basis for comparison to count wrinkles. Just looking and guessing at how old someone appears isn't always a very concrete approach.

Quote
Ariga's megamix also seem to cooperate that not that many years have passed, what with Kalinka still looking in her teens, but slightly older than before. Of course, being a manga one never knows how much it applies to the games.

I take that to mean you're trying to judge Kalinka's appearance in Megamix from this one simplified style background picture? Kalinka was actually supposed to be 9 in R4, making her 3 years shy of being a teenager back then, but if you think she looks to be in the middle to older teens like 16 or 17 as of R9 that's a good 7 or 8 years passed there. But, again, I don't think judging from the artwork is the best idea. Besides that Ariga has taken ample liberties with the game canon regardless.

Quote
Then there's the pre 1 backstory, were those ever said to be in 200X and not in 19XX? We know from EXE that Capcom does not shy away from overwriting our timeline with high tech innovations. Like Soul Server's existence 30 years before EXE5. It should be entirely possible that a robot like Blues would have been invented in 19XX.

Rock (pre-Rockman conversion) was built in 200X. I don't think anything gives a stated indication of Blues' birthyear, though Powered Up appears to suggestively liken it to 20XX with all the rest.

Quote
While it's certainly quite true that PB's timeline placement is "after 7", we must also take into account it's not necessarily "before 8." In the past things like Wily and Roll's designs would make it so. But 9 introduces a whole new interpretation of the canon by allowing retro designs after 8. Not to mention that PF also pulls off a post 8 game with retro designs. That's all to do with the unique nature of the arcade games. If things like PF and Soccer can get away with not including the chronologically previous game's robot masters, then PB can as well. Different from the GB games where the gameplay mechanics solidify the timeline.

Since PF did it years before, I don't think 9 can really be seen as breaking new ground when it comes to using retro clothing designs. But 9 did break all the gameplay mechanics rules, which is actually a step back as far as using the player's move list to solidify anything is concerned. The reasoning is less stable than before we had such a counterexample.

Quote
Taking PB from a strict story perspective, we must simply choose to keep it's connection with PF in tact.

Where the main games in the series build on each other storywise, it doesn't exclude the possibility of a game occurring in-between. There isn't a plot reason why nothing could have happened between PB and PF, unlike the way that 6 leads into 7.

Quote
The storyline of Bass' betrayal and Wily's attitude toward him also seem to correspond with a game closely related to PF and later than RnF. Wily was more than willing to have Forte alongside King, where he is discarding Forte for a new robot in PB and PF.

Wily was willing to say that King II was to work alongside Forte, when Wily was on the floor groveling to the muzzle of Forte's buster. Doesn't seem to have been his plan before it came to that, considering how Wily had ordered the first King to battle Forte not too long ago. A lot of fast talking to save face was going on there.

Quote
Not to mention, if Wily would have said he'd kill Forte using a new robot derived from studying Forte, you'd think the guy would be more reluctant to let Wily to his thing to him.

You'd think from the ending of R&F Forte would be reluctant to be worked on by Wily anyway, after Forte had refused the installation of a limiter chip, exposed Wily's initial intention to replace himself with King and went on to ignore Wily's order to attack Blues or try to save King II's plans. Nonetheless, all that seems to be forgotten come R9 with Forte getting tuned up by Wily, all going back to business as usual. They just seem to have the kind of relationship where they hash it out violently, betray one another, proclaim all manner of mutual disrespect... but still wind up taking care of one another when the chips are down, perhaps even depending on each other. Forte wanting to be the strongest, Wily wanting to build the strongest robot, both wanting Rockman defeated, Forte perhaps needing the maintenance Wily provides, while Forte makes good sometimes saving Wily from being caught or mangled. They have enough common ground there even if neither one can stand the other's ego. I do enjoy their twisted father/son relationship. In that respect it probably wouldn't matter so much who got betrayed by who and when, they can still come together again for the next round. They can work together after R&F. They can work together directly after PB. They can work together after PF. It's open to several possibilities.

Offline Zan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2008, 11:27:55 PM »
Quote
To place it anywhere we have to turn a blind eye to something, there is no way around it.

And I'm turning a blind eye to the 10 years statement, as it's most dubious, considering its confusion with real time. Unless you want to make an argument that at the time of its release you're playing RnF WS in 200X, there's no such confusion there.


Quote
Aged well, you mean. Anti-aging effects might have some stunning advances in their universe. The art styles of the main characters have changed many times over the years, leaving no consistent basis for comparison to count wrinkles. Just looking and guessing at how old someone appears isn't always a very concrete approach.

I meant aged badly, no 47-year old man should have hair as white as Wily would have if Rockman1 was indeed over 10 years before RnF.

Quote
The reasoning is less stable than before we had such a counterexample.

I'd say given the time of creation of the gameboy games, 9 does nothing to change the intend with which they're made. They were released around the same time as the next mainstream game and always attempted to fit before in terms of mechanics. Not to mention other such things as Pluto->Slashman, Rockman's Soccer and Rockboard dictating all gameboy games as having occured before 6.

With Power Battle, Power Fighters and 9, it's a lot more questionable. Power Battle was made without any notion of 8 being released anytime soon, whereas Power Fighters is a game that anticipates 8's release yet has a plot happening after 8. When 9's retro for retro is thrown into the mix, we explain Power Fighter's oddities and just leave Power Battle as some sort of limbo game that can really occur any given time after 7, except after PF.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2008, 01:17:21 AM »
Quote
And I'm turning a blind eye to the 10 years statement, as it's most dubious, considering its confusion with real time. Unless you want to make an argument that at the time of its release you're playing RnF WS in 200X, there's no such confusion there.

Fair enough. I prefer the blind eye to RFWS. I think its developers who were without the creative help of Capcom wound up choosing a date for their setting that conflicted with Capcom's story portrayals, but they didn't really notice, or perhaps didn't really care.

For the 10 years, it is clear that that guide's editors believed the decade time frame to be in game as well, although without corroboration from another source it's hard to say whether or not that was an error. But they were writing for a Capcom game from Capcom materials, so I'm inclined to give more credit to them as a Capcom related source to be correct about Capcom's canon than I would expect that Bandai be allowed to rewrite Capcom's previously stated times and for Capcom to honor that.

Quote
I meant aged badly, no 47-year old man should have hair as white as Wily would have if Rockman1 was indeed over 10 years before RnF.

Wily's hair is grey, Right has the white. In seriousness, I hadn't considered you were talking about hair color. Both my parents were grey by their mid-40s (sorry mom) so I don't think grey hair at that age is too unusual, with various factors like genes, stress, habits and environment coming into play.

Quote
I'd say given the time of creation of the gameboy games, 9 does nothing to change the intend with which they're made. They were released around the same time as the next mainstream game and always attempted to fit before in terms of mechanics.

Because they're supported by facts other than the gameplay mechanics, the above placement of the game boy games is pretty solid, even though timelines in previously published in sourcebooks have had differing results. I'm only saying that R9 casts doubt on any potential judgment made solely or primarily on basis of movelist, which makes having other evidences all the more important.

Offline Zan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2008, 07:24:24 PM »
Quote
Fair enough. I prefer the blind eye to RFWS. I think its developers who were without the creative help of Capcom wound up choosing a date for their setting that conflicted with Capcom's story portrayals, but they didn't really notice, or perhaps didn't really care.

On the other hand though, since 20XX is the most often used time referral in the series, it's kind of weird that they would deliberately change it to 200X or get it wrong by misunderstanding the plot. At best, I'd say it's a typo. And when it comes to whether we should disregard it or the 10 years statement, I would say both, since both are questionable. However, I'm willing to give the 10 years statement some credit for being reasonably feasible with all the other notes on time passage, we're just missing some info to completely confirm or deny the statement.

Quote
Wily's hair is grey, Right has the white. In seriousness, I hadn't considered you were talking about hair color. Both my parents were grey by their mid-40s (sorry mom) so I don't think grey hair at that age is too unusual, with various factors like genes, stress, habits and environment coming into play.

Ah right, it's probably the NES sprites that made me think his hair was white.

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Offline VixyNyan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2008, 07:30:56 PM »
Ah right, it's probably the NES sprites that made me think his hair was white.

*shocked* You forgot? o.o



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Offline Zan

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Re: Mega Man Chronology Discussion
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2013, 04:15:59 AM »
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Mega Man (200X - May 25th) / Powered Up (20XX)
>
Mega Man 2 (200X, 1 year after Mega Man - June 9th)
>
World (200X+a)
>
Mega Man 3 (20XX - August 28th)
>
World 2 (200X+a/20XX, several months after World)
>
Mega Man 4 (20XX, 1 year after Mega Man 3)
>
Rockboard (20XX)
>
World 3  (200X+a/20XX, several months after World 2)
>
Mega Man 5 (20XX, 2 months had passed since the last battle, 2 months since Mega Man 4 or World 3?)
>

Soccer (20XX, several months after Mega Man 4)
||
[World 4 (20XX, several months after World 3) > World 5 (20XX, several months after World 4)]
||
Super Adventure (20XX, 3 years after the temple of the moon rose from the ground causing an earthquake, official investigations ended after a year because science couldn't get close to the temple.)

>
Mega Man 6 (20XX, one year after the World Robot Union is established)
>
Mega Man 7 (20XX, six months after Mega Man 6)
>
The Power Battle (20XX, parallel?)
>
Mega Man 8  (20XX, 10 years after Mega Man?)
>

The Power Fighters (20XX, half a year after Mega Man 8 - parallel?)
||
[Battle and Chase (20XX) > Mega Man and Bass (20XX - parallel?) > Challenger from the future (200X?, Bandai)]

>
Mega Man 9  (20XX, Inti)
>
Mega Man 10 (20XX, Inti)

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