Author Topic: What is truely stronger? The originals or the chosen ones with their Lifemetals?  (Read 9569 times)

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Offline Thanatos-Zero

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I played Rockman ZX and Advent again and I have often asked myself in that time of playing, if the R.o.c.k.men can keep up with the originals like X, Zero and the four guardians.
Are they equally strong or just true shadows of them?
However gameplay elements just showed me, that they represent not their true powers.
For example Rockman's Weapon Copy ability which also X used. In theory Model X would gain Falseroid DNA which would result as a new weapon. As for Zero's EX Skills, he would gain as Model Z new technics based of the Falseroids.
Lets take Fistleo as a good example. Would Zero defeat him in battle, he would gain a firebased airdash with invincibility(Flamestag X2 and a waterbased one from X5) as a new EX Skill.

You surely know what I mean, don't you?

<Wii>

Offline Align

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We haven't used the Z biometal, but it looked more powerful than Zero was, albeit lacking a ranged weapon.
X biomerged can move and double charge shot at the same time, so that's an upgrade - but as you say, no weapon copy. Also, no airdash, nor armor upgrades or other customizable items.
Big4 is hard to say as we haven't played as the originals, and we only get copy/double rock on variants - copy H/Hx certainly can't fly as much as Harpuia, P can't do much in the ways of illusion or trickery, F doesn't seem to have as much raw power... not sure about L. Spinning halberd would've been a useful trick.
A guns are nothing like what they used to be, and also lacks airdash (and hovering). On the other hand, it has a giga attack, and the copy ability seems to be "complete", entirely turning into bosses instead of using their weapons. Though now it's unusable on regular enemies.

Offline Acid

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Dunno about X. We never saw Inti's version of X in action unless Copy X is a perfect copy down to the battle skills.

Offline Flame

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But even then we have not seen Copy X fight without his battle armor.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Night

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I always considered the model x double rockon as change into new armor since the resulting designs aren't that different from model x.
I suppose those, if model x was to defeat an enemy pseudoroid, then we would get some kind of extra ability; though it would most likely go to the most appropriate form. ie, elemental type attacks would go to Hx, Fx, Lx, or Px; while melee attacks would go to Zx, or maybe you could get different buster charged attacks like we would normally expect.

Model Z would most likely get different techniques, although he could also get different types of weapons like in X8. Maybe all the weapons that we're available in the zero series?

 

Offline Blackhook

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Just one question: Whith who is it easier to beat the Z3 bosses? Using Zero or Model ZX?

Offline Align

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I thought it was easier with ZX, but it's probably because I didn't worry about getting hit once and losing S-rank level.

Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Just one question: Whith who is it easier to beat the Z3 bosses? Using Zero or Model ZX?
You forgot that the Damage Formular is different from Z3 to ZX.
However do a TAS if you wish.

Edit:
Would Zero have his old equipment from Z3 in ZX, he would finish the bosses faster than ZX does.
Also not to forget: His Kuuenbu deals 2 Points of Damage per hit, while ZX does only 1 Point.

Offline Blackhook

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Beating Omega is also easier with Zero....altough maybe itīs because the ZX version is stronger?

Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Beating Omega is also easier with Zero....altough maybe itīs because the ZX version is stronger?
No, because Zero couldnīt chain his charged Bustershot, his Kuuenbu and his Trible Slash in Z3 to a combo. In ZX he would [twin slasher] Omega even more than usuall.

Just a little footnote: Vent/Aileīs new moves in Advent do less damage than the Rising Saber and the Saber Trust from Z2, 3 and 4.

Offline Flame

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I forgot, but doesnt ZX have the spinning slash do multiple hits, and the Z3 version not?

also, one factor is that Omega Heals himself in ZX, but did not in Z3, and, he doesnt flinch unless attacked while in the air, whereas in Z3,  you could peg him with the regular pea shot on the ground and he would flinch.

Also, Ultima foot chip.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Thanatos-Zero

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I forgot, but doesnt ZX have the spinning slash do multiple hits, and the Z3 version not?
It does, but it doesnīt allow you to chain Trible Slash, Rising Saber and Saber Trust after the execution.

Let me explain the Damage Barrier Formular of Z3.

Bustershot (uncharged): 0
Orbit Shield Boomerang: 0
Bustershot (Charged any Level): 1
Charged Saber: 1
Charged Shield Boomerang: 1
1st Slash: 1
2nd Slash: 2
3rd Slash: 3
Rising Saber: 4
Saber Trust: 5
Kuuenbu: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ( Any following station of the Kuuenbu rotation has a higher number, so canīt use Kuuenbu on the boss again so soon, if you hit it with the last station of the move, which has 6 for breaking through the Invincible frames. You have than to wait for the end of the Recovery time. When you use 5 for example you cant hit the boss with a trible slash or with the same move again. If you want to cause more damage, than hit it with a higher number. )
Stab Saber: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Offline Nexus

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Why not just fight the Z3 bosses when comparing to the ZX fights with only the saber and buster, and matching EX Skills? Zero had a wider arsenal and more experience in the first place in both story and game mechanics anyway, though, so it's not the greatest comparison.  :\

Offline Night

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wasn't Kuuenbu the double jump?

Offline Thanatos-Zero

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wasn't Kuuenbu the double jump?

Partially in X4, but the double jump existed before Zero was created. Forte uses it in Rockman& Forte as a diffault move.
I prefer to call the Spinning Slash as Kuuenbu, hence it has its roots in that technic.

Offline Align

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Beating Omega is also easier with Zero....altough maybe itīs because the ZX version is stronger?
ZX version is definitely stronger. Not having to be fair to the player (what with being placed after a final stage and 2 final bosses) did that.

Offline Night

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Partially in X4, but the double jump existed before Zero was created. Forte uses it in Rockman& Forte as a diffault move.
I prefer to call the Spinning Slash as Kuuenbu, hence it has its roots in that technic.

AH! That makes sense.

Offline Hypershell

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I find it funny how the lack of VWS/Learning System is used as justification for Biometals being weaker than the original when in fact Zero had the exact same problem in Z1.

This thread has mostly revolved around game mechanics, which can make the exact same character weaker or stronger for no reason at all (case in point: the charged saber between Z3 and Z4).

So far as how the Biometals compare to the originals, Models X and Z didn't seem all that impressive to Serpent and PnP, who were already familiar with the Big Four Biometals.  However we all know that Zero, and we can safely assume X, outclass the Big Four.  That being said, Zero and X both took time and weren't considered all that extraordinary in their early days.  It took time for them to gather experience and power before they truly became a force to be reckoned with.  I suspect the same holds true for a Chosen One attempting to use the power of their respective Biometals.  

In terms of game physics, each has their own strength.  It should go without saying that ZX has the far superior buster shot, however Zero had the more powerful charged saber (although as mentioned above that power diminished a bit in Z4 but was still superior to ZX).  Zero also gets longer reach with his saber.  So there's ups and downs to both.  But I still say that a lot more could have been done with Model ZX if the series hadn't been canned.

I prefer to call the Spinning Slash as Kuuenbu, hence it has its roots in that technic.
The slash (in X4) is Kuuenzan.

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Offline Zan

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I think between originals and Livemetals, the only thing we really could go by is boss patterns of the Big4. It's very noticable how Helios doesn't seem capable of free flight. However, I don't think the livemetals are that much weaker than the originals, it's mostly just that they're different. But if I were to make a wild guess, I'd say Double Rock On is a requirement for them to reach the same level of power as the originals.

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Offline Hypershell

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It's very noticable how Helios doesn't seem capable of free flight.
In battle.  He is capable of flying (or at least hovering indefinitely) in cutscene.

I'm rather tempted to dismiss such similarities as sprite-conservation.  You'll notice that Thetis swerves in manners that are impossible for the player to duplicate.  He has the sprites to travel in all directions.  Aeolus does not, he can't "dive" through the air the way that Harpuia did, and it doesn't take too much of an angle before air-dashing looks awkward.

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Offline Flame

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So far as how the Biometals compare to the originals, Models X and Z didn't seem all that impressive to Serpent and PnP, who were already familiar with the Big Four Biometals.  However we all know that Zero, and we can safely assume X, outclass the Big Four.  That being said, Zero and X both took time and weren't considered all that extraordinary in their early days.  It took time for them to gather experience and power before they truly became a force to be reckoned with.  I suspect the same holds true for a Chosen One attempting to use the power of their respective Biometals. 

I think Vent and Ail kinda prove that in ZXA. they have abilities that they didnt have in ZX. Split heavens and the downwards saber stab. (name escapes me)
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Model X wrecks everything.

And that's unarmored, X2 buster. Granted, it might be a more powerful, hotter shot, but it has the same design.

Someone dissect the Model ZX and Omega battle. That should give some kind of indicator.

Offline Flame

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Omega is a secret boss, so it makes sense for him to be stronger.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Hypershell

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Granted, it might be a more powerful, hotter shot, but it has the same design.
Charge physics between Inti's games and the SNES heavily favor Inti no matter what character you're talking about.  In the SNES your default charged shot strength is 4 times your normal shot strength, with only 2x damage on a boss.  In Zero/ZX, it's 6 times normal strength, with the full multiplier against a boss.

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Charge physics between Inti's games and the SNES heavily favor Inti no matter what character you're talking about.  In the SNES your default charged shot strength is 4 times your normal shot strength, with only 2x damage on a boss.  In Zero/ZX, it's 6 times normal strength, with the full multiplier against a boss.

Not to mention that in the SNES games, dashing buster shots were the same strength as armorless charged shots.
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