Topic: How would you describe Sigma?

[Hypershell]

He really thinks he's doing good.

Ratial prejudice and mass murder aren't evil?

NOBODY who's evil actually believes they're evil.  They consider their actions justified due to being selfish, heartless, misguided, or some combination thereof.  Copy X would fall into the heartless/misguided category, placing no value on Reploid life and thus exterminating them for convenience of humans.  The fact that he was charismatic enough for others to follow him is what makes him especially dangerous.  He is, IMHO, the most evil villain the franchise ever saw, if only because of his potential to corrupt and mislead the masses of their own free will (as opposed to a virus, tampered manufacturing process, mental erosion from experimental power systems, cyber-elf manipulation, or a hunk of metal that just likes to screw with your head).

[Robert Oakes]

I personally view Sigma as a character who worked to achieve evolution in order to overcome his own weaknesses.

Sigma was the proud commander of the Maverick Hunters. Built from the latest circuit designs, Sigma was arguably the most powerful and intelligent Reploid ever created. However, Sigma encountered Zero, who not only almost killed him but also humiliated him in the process. Sigma's pride was shattered; he was supposed to be the greatest, but now there was an entirely new level.

Sigma began to harbor a desire to reach that level. He wasn't the epitome of Reploid design; he could improve, he could be better. Reploids could be better. However, he didn't know how until Dr. Cain told him about X's potential. Sigma took Cain's words to heart and started his uprising in order to see that potential unleashed.

Over the course of series, Sigma made repeated attempts to obtain X's strength, becoming more and more obssessed. But no matter what he tried or how powerful his bodies became, he continued to be defeated. Sigma started to hate X for possessing the potential that he could never have. Driven by this hatred, Sigma conducted schemes to see X destroyed. The Earth Crisis is the result of that.

Then Axl appeared. A mysterious character who could copy the DNA data of any Reploid. Sigma saw a new opportunity; by obtaining the DNA of X, Sigma could finally find the key to the evolution he long sought, but he didn't count on Axl himself thwarting his plans.

After that, Sigma began to ponder what made X so powerful, eventually remembering X's dedication to justice. Sigma's views changed; realizing that evolution wasn't about power, he determined that he needed to change the world, correcting its imperfections and steering it to what he believed to be the natural course.

To that end, the New Generation Reploids were of prime importance. Because of their newfound viral immunity, they could not become Maverick from system abnormalities. They could only become Maverick if they wanted to be. Sigma embedded his DNA on the Copy Chips to share his mentality with the New Generation Reploids, to show them the flaws of the old world. By making them his children, Sigma made sure that the New Generation Reploids would carry on his legacy if he failed again.

With the revelation that a Reploid devoid of irregularities may still turn against the world, it was proven that Reploids aren't merely tools of the humans. That despite what some may believe, Reploids possess true, independent will. This put Reploids on a new level, forever changing the nature of human and Reploid existence. This is evolution, which is what Sigma always wanted.

At least, this is how I see it.

[Keno]

I would describe Sigma as bald.

[marshmallow man]

Sigma is no hero, although he'd like to believe he is. Since the New Gens needed Sigma's data to become Irregular "by will," it begs the question how it was ever their will at all, but was in fact merely Sigma's will for them. In his view, it is his DNA that makes them great moreso than their abilities to copy others.

I think in some ways, what Sigma could have been in X1 and what he eventually became through IHX are comparable to Epsilon and Redips. Epsilon, though inciting rebellion, does so for what he believes is a chance for all reploids to achieve their true potential and live freely. Redips on the other hand seeks more power for himself, and believes that the true potential of reploids is embodied solely in he himself. Epsilon believes in an ideal greater than himself, Redips in an ideal which makes himself greater.

[Hypershell]

but was in fact merely Sigma's will for them.

If that was the case Lumine wouldn't have offed him.  They see Sigma's point of view, but they are not bound to Sigma's will.

[marshmallow man]

He certainly did not want to be betrayed, yet a view of oneself as superior and the betrayal of one's father for personal glory is exactly akin to Sigma's personality, and exactly what he himself once did. He underestimates them in thinking he can lead them, which is truly a symptom of his misevaluation of himself. A society made up of Sigmas could never stand, as each would look down upon the next and internally set out to prove themselves the best of their brothers. Lumine was the most like Sigma, believing strongly in his inherent right to lead. If the others become more and more like Sigma, they too would grow into his prideful arrogance. Their selfish willful nature would always pit them against each other in the end.

[Hypershell]

It's an interesting brainstorm, and it certainly makes sense, but it also leaves one curious as to Lumine's dying words.  "You may have defeated me, but it's too late to stop what's already begun."  Lumine seems convinced that the new world will happen with or without him, which does not strike me as a Sigma-cloned attitude.

I could see either way happening.

[marshmallow man]

If he comes back in X9, we'll know we didn't have to worry about it.

[Keno]

X9 is when Axl turns into Dark Phoenix for a little, but he gets OK by the time Command Mission happens.

[Align]

Unless he doesn't and it all happens off-screen?

[Waifu]

I thought Zero would be Dark Phoenix.

[Keno]

There's like a hundred years for Axl to have trouble & then get better again.

[Flame]

Nothing is referenced in CM to have happened to Axl. plus, since we dont know rhe nature of Lumine's attack, we cannot say what it did or did not do to him. The ONLY thing that COULD be, is that Lumine's attack may have had influence on Axl's evolved Copy ability in CM. But even that has very little base since CM came out before X8.

[Keno]

Nothing is referenced in CM to have happened to Axl.

Gee maybe that's because CM came out first.

[Flame]

They would have to keep that in mind making games after that. since there is no mention or anything to suggest something "bad" happens to Axl, (nothing majorly bad anyway) they have to work with the story as to not mess that up. However, that does not mean that nothing can happen. Lumine smashes Axl's crystal, and seems to leave something there. and then, somehow, in Command mission some years later, He has an almost fully evolved copy ability, being able to copy an enemy of any size, only limited still to having to colect the DNA before he can use it.
HMMM.

Which isnt to say that nothing MIGHT happen to him AFTER Command Mission... I mean, his absence in the Zero series has to be explained somehow, regardless of the actual Inti reason he wasnt in.

[Zan]

Gee maybe that's because CM came out first.

If X8's story was not set in stone as of the time of XCM's writing, Redips and other New Generation Repliroids would not be in the game. Likewise, Sigma himself would be the final boss. That Sigma was excluded and Redips and his followers are key points in the game are therefore proof positive that they would have taken into account something as major as Axl's X8 ending.

[Flame]

When they made CM, they were already making X8, as evidenced by the demo in the PS2 version. And if they were already producing X8's game, that means that they already had an outline of it's story. They most likely had a draft already, if not he definitive story for X8, when they were making CM.

[Keno]

If X8's story was not set in stone as of the time of XCM's writing, Redips and other New Generation Repliroids would not be in the game. Likewise, Sigma himself would be the final boss. That Sigma was excluded and Redips and his followers are key points in the game are therefore proof positive that they would have taken into account something as major as Axl's X8 ending.

Or it's a retcon. That happens a lot in Mega Man if you haven't noticed.

[Flame]

hows it a retcon if CM came out before X8? they clearly had a basic idea for X8's story already. (I say basic, since certain terms dont match up with X8, and X asks Redips what made him maverick, whereas back in X8, that is revealed to be Sigma DNA.)
but regardless, they already had a going X8 story.

[Keno]

hows it a retcon if CM came out before X8? they clearly had a basic idea for X8's story already. (I say basic, since certain terms dont match up with X8, and X asks Redips what made him maverick, whereas back in X8, that is revealed to be Sigma DNA.)
but regardless, they already had a going X8 story.

X8 was a retcon, since it was a prequel to Command Mission, & how roughly it fits in with CM just goes to show that it's a sloppy one.

[Hypershell]

I think it's fairly obvious that XCM was meant to be distanced from the rest of the X-series in terms of storyline, X8 included.  Why else did they leap to the next century and exclude the entire previous supporting cast?  So I don't think they did a "sloppy" job of connecting anything, I think they were in fact trying to avoid making such connections.

[Keno]

Uh I disagree entirely? Yea, CM was originally to be seperate, but then they changed their minds & had X8 lead into it, & it turned out rough. That's all I'm saying.

[Hypershell]

There's no solid lead-in between X8 and XCM.  Most of what X8 established is things we already knew had to happen sooner or later according to MMZ (Sigma dead, Orbital Elevators).

There's no other similarity besides the Copy Chip to Evolution correlation.  Not only does XCM work without it (the Copy Chip is relevant to Redips's tactics and to his changing forms after obtaining SFM), but drawing that link with Redips is sketchy when you consider that Redips's concept of Evolution is quite a bit more selfish than the likes of Sigma and Lumine.  Further questionable is whether or not any refinements went into Copy Chips when their post-X8 production resumed thus affecting that mentality, and for that matter, whether or not XCM even falls before or after that second wave of production is not directly stated.

Let's run over what X8 doesn't cover, shall we?

1. Axl's head-shot affecting his copy ability is a fan-based assumption, the consequences of that attack have not been addressed in any way, while Axl's clip in X8's ending implies something a little darker than "Hey, I can copy Mad Nautillus now."
2. Despite the post-X8 wave of Copy Chip production, they are exceedingly rare in XCM.
3. X's elevation to S-Class is unaddressed (was previously B-Class).
4. Axl makes the leap from new recruit to S-Class, something that should not be happening overnight, especially when you consider that X and Zero are the only other ones as of XCM.
5. X's new armor is unaccounted for
6. The series's usual supporting cast is unaccounted for; in fact X8 expanded it rather than diminishing it.
7. Light's absence is unaccounted for.
8. The means by which ANYONE creates an armor for Zero, thus surpassing Light's understanding of him as of X5, is unaccounted for.
9. The X8 art style change flies in the face of any fan-perceived setup attempt since it only increases the contrast between the titles.
10. X8 declined to make the 22XX century leap that XCM did, as the opening cinema confirms we are still in 21XX.

X8 leads into Command Mission about as much as it leads into ZX Advent.  Not at all.  It fits with it, it is part of the same timeline, and it carries numerous recurring themes.  But in terms of timeline placement, no, Command Mission is no more a direct sequel to X8 than it is to the rest of the X-series.  Even if X8 presents some (nowhere near all) information relevant to it, that does not make XCM any less distant.

[Keno]

Good argument.

Don't forget Wily's unaccounted disappearance after X6.

[Zan]

Don't forget Wily's unaccounted disappearance after X6.

That's a completely separate matter altogether.