Rockman Perfect Memories

Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Original => Topic started by: Melsurigan on October 28, 2012, 04:52:56 AM

Title: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Melsurigan on October 28, 2012, 04:52:56 AM
I've been pondering this for awhile, but it kind of makes sense that Burner Man from MM&B would be a cyborg, or at least a human brain in a robot body. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but it explains a lot about the character. Just hear me out:

-It says right in his profile that King told him to burn down forests, otherwise a bomb implanted inside him will explode (whether King's lying or not, Burner Man's not in any position to question the threat). Which begs the question: what the HELL does King, or more importantly, Dr. Wily, need to do this for? Burner Man could easily be programmed to just burn stuff, rather than them having to resort to this measure. And mind you, we're not in the reploid era yet, so...

   The best answer? There's a human brain in that robotic body. Apparently he has a skill-set or mentality that is useful to them somehow, but the only way they can get him to follow their orders is by force. There's always the possibility that he is genuinely insane, but that makes it all the more important that they keep his rage directed towards their enemies. Also, considering the human brain, he cannot take the chance that the self-destruct threat is a bluff.

-He is insanely difficult to fight, especially with Mega Man (Bass is this game's "easy mode", with all due respect).

   Why, that would be the First Rule of Robotics in place, here. Mega Man realizes he has to be careful not to shoot Burner Man's head, due to the human brain and all, but because the guy is so fast he forces the blue bomber to be too cautious for his own good.
   There's also the possibility that Burner Man is just extemely clever, considering he uses bear-traps and constant ramming with his fire-helmet to make up for his Wave Burner's short range. But that's just the sort of creativity expected from a human.

-His weakness is the Ice Wall. However, the weapon has to be used carefully, with timing involed on Mega Man's part that borders on frustrating.

   It's the quicket way around the First Rule; for Mega Man to beat a cyborg, he has to do so indirectly. The Ice Wall has to hit Burner Man when he's either unprepared or completely unaware. By the time it gets momentum and hits him, it is too late to stop it and Burner Man gets pushed into the spikes. Mega Man runs too slow to save him, as well, making it a perfect way to get around his programming-induced hesitation. It isn't his "weakness", par say, but an ingenious way to defeat him.

-He's the only robot master in the game with a fully human face. Also, he is one of the only pre-X robot masters with a human face to ever show visible, realistic facial expressions in-game.

   Perhaps a nod to his humanity? While a lot of robot masters show "emotion" when they get hit with their weakness, most of the time they just look super-wacky and stand there while getting hit. Burner Man, on the other hand, looks convincingly surprised when the ice wall hits him successfully, and is grinning the entire time when fighting you. Very dynamic facial expressions, no? Similar to a human.


Maybe someone can counter me, but personally I think the idea is reasonable.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: The Great Gonzo on October 28, 2012, 05:12:29 AM
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Burner Man could easily be programmed to just burn stuff, rather than them having to resort to this measure. And mind you, we're not in the reploid era yet, so...

The amount of free will/humanity that Classic-era robots have seems to depend entirely on its convenience to the plot. (See: Megaman and Roll's inexplicably sociopathic non-reaction to expiration dates in MM9) So the superfluous bomb is probably just a consequence of inconsistency.

That, or King didn't like the idea of reprogramming...but picked an alternative that wasn't much better. King was kind of a dick prior to the end of the game.

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He is insanely difficult to fight

This might just be me, but EVERY boss in MMnB was a complete [dark hold] (well, excluding the Green Devil).

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Also, he is one of the only pre-X robot masters with a human face to ever show visible, realistic facial expressions in-game.

For the 8-bit/8-bit-like games, I'd chalk that up to graphical limitations. As for the rest--they're the kind of characters who would make goofy faces like that. Burnerman, by contrast, looks like has already torched dozens of people alive.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Gaia on October 28, 2012, 05:16:47 AM
This might just be me, but EVERY boss in MMnB was a complete [dark hold] (well, excluding the Green Devil).

I'm able to beat Cold Man with both characters no prob, heh. Dynamo Man is the real ass of the 8 bosses. Others have a slight learning curve which makes them a pain to fight early on, I learned this through the Magic Man boss battle on the jap release (played it under the mm9 alias when MM9 didn't exist yet and MM&B wasn't on US shores yet, so it was on an emulator).
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on October 28, 2012, 05:25:48 AM
.....Okay this is way more hilarious that the theory that Iris is human.  >0<

 Seriously Burner Man is a just a gullible trusting dude who is super hard to beat because in Megaman and Bass they really stack the odds against Megaman and Bass surprisingly has a easier time.  Not to mention the entire game is like Megaman X6 to most people, very hard and cheap.

 Like Gonzo said since King believed that humans are bastards and wanted to use robots in war so it makes sense why he wouldn't reprogram a robot because that's what a evil human would do but he's not above using other despicable means since he was made by Wily.

Besides there are other robot masters with a almost fully human face, Megaman, Roll, Protoman, Quickman, Splash Woman, and many others.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: The Great Gonzo on October 28, 2012, 05:39:55 AM
At least "Burnerman is a Cyborg Master" isn't directly contradicted by a sourcebook. I think.

Besides there are other robot masters with a almost fully human face, Megaman, Roll, Protoman, Quickman, Splash Woman, and many others.

He did specify that Burner's the only RM with a human face in MMnB.

Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on October 28, 2012, 05:41:52 AM
I suppose he did, guess I missed that when I skimmed it.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Quickman on October 28, 2012, 05:51:09 AM
.....Okay this is way more hilarious that the theory that Iris is human.  >0<

When was this? XD  I must have missed that one...

As for Burnerman's looks... I chalk it up to simple design aesthetics.  He just simply looked better with a face.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on October 28, 2012, 06:01:56 AM
I saw it in one of chat discussions in one of the articles on The Megaman Network or something.  Always the same guy too.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Flame on October 28, 2012, 06:08:32 AM
Burnerman is a fun design. But an [dark hold] of a boss. Only thing that makes Dynamoman any difficult is the fact that he can heal himself and if you are not Bass, you will have a more difficult time breaking his charger.

As for a Cyborg...

I don't think so... That kind of tech, that level of tech doesn't seem to have popped up until the Elf Wars, where it was used to Punish Weil for his crimes, and did not become more advanced until ZX, where it became commonplace. (Then again, having a nigh unkillable regenerative body is pretty damn advanced... even compared to ZX cyborgs)
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Joseph Collins on October 28, 2012, 06:36:38 AM
Interesting theory with some equally interesting things to back it up, I have to admit.  But... eh.  I dunno.
-He is insanely difficult to fight, especially with Mega Man (Bass is this game's "easy mode", with all due respect).
He is?  I never had any problem with him.  Buster-only, both with Rock and Forte.  And without any power-up items, too.  X3  Magicman, on the other hand...  What a freaking nightmare.  >_<  Without the Counter-Attacker module, Bass just... can't defeat him.  Either that or I'm just really, really lame at fighting him.  At least Rockman can do three times as much damage in one shot.  Geeze.

... I do wonder why Burnerman has a bomb in his chassis, though.  Maybe King didn't want to reprogram him or something...
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on October 28, 2012, 06:38:50 AM
Burner man doesn't have a bomb in his chassis, King tricked him.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Joseph Collins on October 28, 2012, 06:46:03 AM
King is a jerk.  :(
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on October 28, 2012, 06:50:39 AM
Well Wily did brainwash him to be that way.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Ladd Spencer on October 28, 2012, 07:46:35 AM
Shenron removed that bomb, guys. Burner Man is gonna be OK
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Align on October 28, 2012, 09:26:02 AM
It's the quicket way around the First Rule; for Mega Man to beat a cyborg, he has to do so indirectly.
"....through action or inaction...."
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Ladd Spencer on October 28, 2012, 10:00:35 AM
Firstly, a robot can serve as prosecutor, merely giving data sufficient to determine the accused of being a detriment to the society as a whole to the jury and judge, who convict and condemn the accused, and who order the executioner to execute the accused.

Secondly, a robot can create a ship that kills its crew, so long as they are alive after the jump.

Thirdly, robots were created in secret by United States Robotics and Mechanical Men who had an altered First Law, which merely stated "through action" in place of "through action or inaction". They were necessary for applications involving heavy radiation, where 30 minutes in a suit was the longest humans could remain out there. Regular robots with regular positronic brains would save them immediately, because they could not be sure if they or anything else would be there in time if the situation were to occur.

And lastly, King obviously was trying to throw Mega Man off the trail of Dr. Wily by putting those CDs all over the place. Mega Man asking Guts Man if he likes to sing karaoke was an incredibly devious one.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Mirby on October 28, 2012, 10:07:01 AM
And lastly, King obviously was trying to throw Mega Man off the trail of Dr. Wily by putting those CDs all over the place. Mega Man asking Guts Man if he likes to sing karaoke was an incredibly devious one.
Also he thinks Dr. Light is a douche.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Joseph Collins on October 28, 2012, 10:45:11 AM
But Dr. Right is a douche.  And also, a douchie.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Mirby on October 28, 2012, 10:49:21 AM
Douchey, actually, is how the game spells it. XD
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Flame on October 28, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
I totally missed this while reading earlier:

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Why, that would be the First Rule of Robotics in place, here.

   It's the quickest way around the First Rule;
Well now you are just assuming that Mega Man Robots even HAVE the rules of robotics hard coded and are bound by them. Mega Man sure doesn't, otherwise he would be completely unable to fight Wily 1 on 1 in their final showdowns. The rules, (or at least the first one,) exist in the mega man universe, but the robots don't seem bound by them, it seems like more of a moral guideline, since they are all sentient robots anyway and understand that hurting people is wrong. Or, as far as Classic goes, are just not programmed to do such a thing. Their programming is advanced and lifelike, but in the end it is still not entirely the same as a Human. Their personalities and moral compass are based on their creator's desires. Such as Rock having a strong sense of justice, or Bass being proud as a Peacock.

Also, non canon cameos to the universe for sure, but in MvC 1,2 and TvC, Rock and Roll have absolutely no problem fighting Human characters.
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his programming-induced hesitation. It isn't his "weakness", par say, but an ingenious way to defeat him.
He has no such thing. He attacks Wily all the damn time.

Also,

"....through action or inaction...."
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Melsurigan on October 28, 2012, 07:17:08 PM
Also, non canon cameos to the universe for sure, but in MvC 1,2 and TvC, Rock and Roll have absolutely no problem fighting Human characters.

You're backing your argument based on a non canon source? Seriously?

He has no such thing. He attacks Wily all the damn time.

Rock does not explicitly hurt Dr. Wily, but attacks the machine that Wily is inside, without harming him. He never kills Wily, let alone directly; not even in MM7, where in the Japanese version he obediently followed the First Rule of Robotics.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: The Great Gonzo on October 28, 2012, 07:33:23 PM
Rock does not explicitly hurt Dr. Wily, but attacks the machine that Wily is inside, without harming him. He never kills Wily, let alone directly; not even in MM7, where in the Japanese version he obediently followed the First Rule of Robotics.

I think there's at least one game (MMII) where Megaman has to shoot Wily directly, or Wily doesn't fall/hop out of the machine upon its destruction.

As for MM7, it didn't have to be THE First Law preventing Megaman from killing Wily; maybe Megaman realized that shooting him would bring more harm than good (he's supposed to be a defender of humans, yet he shot one in the face, and in the MM-verse humans outside of the doctors and Kalinka tend to be panicky, bastardly idiots).

(I noticed the "the Laws are totally programmed into Classic 'bots" thing too, but was afraid to bring it up in case the thread turned into a mess. Too late for that now?)
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Melsurigan on October 28, 2012, 08:26:15 PM
I wouldn't say the thread is a mess. I did invite people to counter my argument.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Flame on October 28, 2012, 08:32:36 PM
You're backing your argument based on a non canon source? Seriously?
Sure, why not? Made by Capcom, right? May not be a 100% best source, but certain elements are definitely salvageable, such as Zero calling Roll a Housekeeping Reploid because he just can't tell the difference, thus proving that in the 21XX world, Classic series robots would still be considered Reploids since they are also sentient androids, very similar to Reploids, simply set aback by inferior technology and mental capacity. (they sure as hell are not mechaniloids, right?)

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Rock does not explicitly hurt Dr. Wily, but attacks the machine that Wily is inside, without harming him.
Irrelevant.

"1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm."

Rock directly attacks a machine with Wily inside, causing it to explode. There is GREAT risk of Wily being seriously hurt. I wouldn't quite expect you to be fine after YOUR car blows up with you inside, no? Rock, far back in 1, had no way of knowing if Wily could or could not be injured by his machine's destruction.

And I mean, come on. You are attacking his machines with such things as tossed Sawblades, concussive explosives, and even miniature black holes. You cant seriously tell me There is absolutely no risk for him to get hurt, especially when you always attack the COCKPIT where he is seated once the initial Skull facade is broken.
And Wily DOES get hurt by it. Comedic value aside, he ALWAYS ends up scuffed, bruised, clothes torn, and sometimes missing a tooth or two.

 
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He never kills Wily, let alone directly; not even in MM7, where in the Japanese version he obediently followed the First Rule of Robotics.
Of course he would not kill Wily. You dont need the 3 rules to keep Rock from killing people. He knows it's wrong. He fights for justice and peace. When Wily, taken aback by Rock's sudden lapse of moral judgement, questioned it, Rock didn't say anything. he just stood there, most likely realizing it was wrong. Dont underestimate his sense of Justice. The same sense of Justice that had him volunteer to be converted into a battle robot to stop his rampant brother robots.

Also, there is this:

"2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law."

Rock would have to obey every order given to him by Wily. He would have to obey if Wily told him to stand down.

Asimovian Robots do not good battle robots make.

EDIT: the 0th law would also cause a paradox for Rock. It states that a Robot may not harm Humanity, or by inaction, allow it to come to harm.

so yes, that means he would have tofight against Wily to protect Humanity, since Wily can cause damages and harm people.

BUT, by attacking Wily and going against him, a Human, he would be breaking the first law, where he cannot allow Wily to be harmed or come to harm. he would also be breaking the second law, where he must obey any orders given him by a Human. And naturally, Any order Wily gives him would also break the first 2 laws, or the third even, if he were to order Mega Man to terminate himself.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Melsurigan on October 28, 2012, 09:43:25 PM
Okay, NOW you're starting to make sense. What you're saying, basically, is that robots and programming are far more complex than something like the Asimovian rules can really grasp.


That's a good argument. If that is the case, considering Mega Man has fought Wily consistently, he knows Wily's a threat and will wreck his machine with him in it, but holds back from shooting at him when he's defenseless, because of his personal sense of justice.


However, it is not explicitly stated in MM&B that he has any idea if King's invasion is backed by Dr. Wily. The whole deceit trick may have been done to death, but Mega Man does have a tendency to fall for it. True, he may have a hunch deep down, but he won't take his chances. So theoretically, if Burner Man was a cyborg, Mega Man can't just assume that he will become a repeat offender like Wily, so deep down he'll hesitate.


In the end, he does wind up defeating him. And he does explode. But mind you, I did say just the head was human, right? There are plenty of fictional cyborgs that can survive with only a brain, and since he comes back in the Fortress levels, perhaps his head was found and he was rebuilt?
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 28, 2012, 09:56:38 PM
I think due to King tricking him about a bomb in his body, he went insane in paranoia
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Flame on October 28, 2012, 10:03:59 PM
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However, it is not explicitly stated in MM&B that he has any idea if King's invasion is backed by Dr. Wily. The whole deceit trick may have been done to death, but Mega Man does have a tendency to fall for it.
You really can't ever be too sure. Its the way it usually turns out, but you cannot be entirely sure Wily IS behind it, until it is revealed. A random Robot comes out of nowhere, claiming to want to free robots and all that jazz, and supposedly attacked not only the Robot museum, but kicked Wily out of his own lab, and that was a pretty unusual, interesting plan Wily made.

I chalk up Burner man's weakness to simply game design. They created this ice block Rock can use as a platform since he cannot double jump or use the Rush adapter. So how do they incorporate it to the fire boss as a weakness? Well, why not have it push the boss into spikes? Burnerman cringes and kind of locks up at the block because he's fire and it's ice, and as a result, is pushed into spikes, which do the actual damage.

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In the end, he does wind up defeating him. And he does explode. But mind you, I did say just the head was human, right? There are plenty of fictional cyborgs that can survive with only a brain, and since he comes back in the Fortress levels, perhaps his head was found and he was rebuilt?
And Rock then kills him again.

I think you are just looking far too deeply into this. just because he is the only Human faced Robot master does not automatically make him a cyborg. Other Robot masters from other games have quirky weaknesses too, and or facial expressions, that doesnt make them cyborgs.
And again, the Classic series never delved into that kind of technology. It's far too serious a concept for the scope of Classic, which is googly eyed robots fighting other googly eyed robots, with a balding Einstein expy mad scientist as the ever foiled villain. X which is far more serious, only FLIRTED with the idea, with Serges and Isoc, with Wily somehow still being around, "brought back by the virus". Only the Zero series ever actually played it straight with Weil, and took him 3 of the 4 games to show up.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Ladd Spencer on October 28, 2012, 10:07:22 PM
Where the [tornado fang] did you get a 0th Law from? The 1st Law covers the good of the whole.

Also, everyone seems to have missed the part where I pointed out Asimov writing about the inadequacies of the applications of the laws.

Also, you guys know that Mega Man as a universe does not employ the Three Laws? That's just Mega Man X' English translation IIRC.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: The Great Gonzo on October 28, 2012, 10:54:09 PM
Where the [tornado fang] did you get a 0th Law from? The 1st Law covers the good of the whole.

I believe Asimov himself came up with the 0th Law? And just because the Laws turned out to be a pain in the ass didn't stop Capcom from trying to establish a version of them in MM (perhaps the inflexibility of the original Laws is why the MM version is so vague).

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Also, you guys know that Mega Man as a universe does not employ the Three Laws? That's just Mega Man X' English translation IIRC.

The guff about Laws is also in the JP version of MMX1; it's written in English in both versions.

I don't think they're Asmivion Laws for reasons Flame just talked about. Personally, anything that reduces the robot characters to non-entities ("they did/didn't do this because of poorly-defined robot laws, not because they wanted/didn't want or have to") simply doesn't belong in Classic. It doesn't belong anywhere, but in the context of MM, Classic is the least suited to Magic Asimov Asspulls due to its tone.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Flame on October 28, 2012, 11:06:52 PM
They do exist in the Mega Man world, just they dont seem to be actually hardcoded into Robots brains. Just more of a general rule of thumb, a sort of set of "commandments" for Robots.

After all, most people do the [parasitic bomb] the 10 commandments say not to do, right? All because the set of rules exists, doesn't mean Robots are forced to follow them.

When Light says he fears X could break the first rule, he wasnt talking as if robots are usually bound by them, he just fears X would break the rule. Like me saying I fear my kid breaks the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Yknow, when my kid is also years more advanced than any other living being and could become an unstoppable force if he went rogue.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: The Great Gonzo on October 28, 2012, 11:40:52 PM
They do exist in the Mega Man world, just they dont seem to be actually hardcoded into Robots brains.

Well, I was specifically referring to the internally-enforced variety (which "Asmovian laws" seem to be by definition?).


This thread makes me wonder about who else in the MM series someone has claimed was a cyborg. Ones I currently know of are Megaman (lots of US publications described him as being at least partially human) and Wily (he survived getting squashed at the end of MM3 and apparently caught Roboenza in 10, though I'm fairly certain it was just a normal cold).
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Gaia on October 29, 2012, 01:43:38 AM
It was not a cold in MM10's ending, Mega Man points out in the US release is that he had a mild fever (his sprite also showed that he turned red and steam came out, traits not normally shown in colds). Wily survived getting squashed in MM3 due to his INSANE amount of LUK he has. Remember, he's also an ebil scientist.

If Burner Man's a cyborg an Iris a human, what makes Kalinka? She apparently survived to 21XX in Xover into her sweet 16 apparently, but wouldn't that make her 20 or something if humans aged normally in the series? Ciel is an altered human herself, after all (able to recreate X at a young age, being able to create a substitute energy in her teenage years, and other feats).
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Zan on October 29, 2012, 02:29:20 AM
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She apparently survived to 21XX in Xover into her sweet 16 apparently, but wouldn't that make her 20 or something if humans aged normally in the series?

OVER-1 was made by Right and Cossack, 20XX.

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Ciel is an altered human herself, after all

Had her genes altered from birth, and is a prodigy among those.

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Also, non canon cameos to the universe for sure, but in MvC 1,2 and TvC, Rock and Roll have absolutely no problem fighting Human characters.

In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.

And in Megamix, Ringman is ensured to follow the rules of robotics by making his attacks weaker. His restrictions are removed for his battle against Rock. Contrasting that, Blues' weird A.I. power system thingamob grants him the potential to break the rules.

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-It says right in his profile that King told him to burn down forests, otherwise a bomb implanted inside him will explode (whether King's lying or not, Burner Man's not in any position to question the threat). Which begs the question: what the HELL does King, or more importantly, Dr. Wily, need to do this for? Burner Man could easily be programmed to just burn stuff, rather than them having to resort to this measure. And mind you, we're not in the reploid era yet, so...

King, being the leader of a revolt against the human race for enslaving robots, would not reprogram one of his kind. Is that not obvious? He had to resort to different means to have Burner Man act as he did. Besides, King leads the ROBOT army, not the robot and one cyborg army.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Gaia on October 29, 2012, 02:50:43 AM
OVER-1 was made by Right and Cossack, 20XX.

Why does this seem very vauge? Is it because the lack of visible birthdates among doctors?

Had her genes altered from, birth, and is a prodigy among those.

How does one alter sperm? Is it like in some shows and movies where people go into the body (in Ciel's case her mom's womb) and alter [parasitic bomb] from there (One show even has a sperm slaughterfest)? Must be some freaky [parasitic bomb]. Then again we have reploids go birds n' bees in our fanfics.

In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.

Rrrrrrrrrreally now?   [eyebrow]
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Joseph Collins on October 29, 2012, 04:52:47 AM
In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.
I... what?  Not my precious Roll-chan!  T_T

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: VixyNyan on October 29, 2012, 05:41:59 AM
In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.

v this

(http://lol.rockmanpm.com/OVA2_068.jpg)

oh wow, 9/11 2009, who would've known? ^^;
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on October 29, 2012, 05:46:54 AM
Whoa forgot about that, then again I didn't see the entire episode.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Align on October 29, 2012, 06:47:25 PM
How does one alter sperm? Is it like in some shows and movies where people go into the body (in Ciel's case her mom's womb) and alter [parasitic bomb] from there (One show even has a sperm slaughterfest)? Must be some freaky [parasitic bomb]. Then again we have reploids go birds n' bees in our fanfics.
Geneering would have to happen after the egg is fertilized, if you want the changes to definitely stick. Or of course you could just grow a clone from an unfertilized egg - either way, you don't have to bother with the sperm.

Anyway, 0th law alone would allow Megaman to attack Wily, should it become necessary. It has priority over the first, just like the first has over the 2nd and 2nd over 3rd.
Ultimately the laws aren't really relevant in the Megaman series. They could be enforced in the good robots, or not, and we wouldn't be able to tell. Well, assuming molesting doesn't count as harm...
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Ladd Spencer on October 30, 2012, 03:45:55 AM
I believe Asimov himself came up with the 0th Law? And just because the Laws turned out to be a pain in the ass didn't stop Capcom from trying to establish a version of them in MM (perhaps the inflexibility of the original Laws is why the MM version is so vague).
They do exist in the Mega Man world, just they dont seem to be actually hardcoded into Robots brains. Just more of a general rule of thumb, a sort of set of "commandments" for Robots.

When Light says he fears X could break the first rule, he wasnt talking as if robots are usually bound by them, he just fears X would break the rule. Like me saying I fear my kid breaks the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Yknow, when my kid is also years more advanced than any other living being and could become an unstoppable force if he went rogue.
Well, I was specifically referring to the internally-enforced variety (which "Asmovian laws" seem to be by definition?).
The laws aren't that inflexible. I've only read I, Robot, but some crazy [parasitic bomb] happens in that. I've never heard of the 0th Law though. The Laws usually come up in a puzzle solving sense, where they need the robot to do something but it is incapable of such, or in a comparison of priority, where a strong command with little intonation of loss of life causes a parallel between 1 and 2. Other such parellels occur, where people are only so relatively in danger, but the robot is in danger constantly, where the robot will run in circles, due to limitations on its sensors.

After all, most people do the [parasitic bomb] the 10 commandments say not to do, right? All because the set of rules exists, doesn't mean Robots are forced to follow them.
Kind of but it's more a matter of how you look at it. A mind-reading robot was unable to lie in any case where the person's feelings would be hurt, in fact actually lying to them for their benefit. Is imprisonment harm? Questions like that come to mind.

The guff about Laws is also in the JP version of MMX1; it's written in English in both versions.
Is it? Beats me. I heard an ultra nerd say that once. Zan, we need your awesomeness on this.

I don't think they're Asmivion Laws for reasons Flame just talked about. Personally, anything that reduces the robot characters to non-entities ("they did/didn't do this because of poorly-defined robot laws, not because they wanted/didn't want or have to") simply doesn't belong in Classic. It doesn't belong anywhere, but in the context of MM, Classic is the least suited to Magic Asimov Asspulls due to its tone.
The Laws have a lot more leeway than you would think. Read the man; it's [tornado fang]ing cool as [parasitic bomb].

This thread makes me wonder about who else in the MM series someone has claimed was a cyborg. Ones I currently know of are Megaman (lots of US publications described him as being at least partially human) and Wily (he survived getting squashed at the end of MM3 and apparently caught Roboenza in 10, though I'm fairly certain it was just a normal cold).
Wily is by either a brain in a robot body or some sort of brain backed-up dealy, because he definitely appears several times in X.

In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.
Well, assuming molesting doesn't count as harm...
That does not compute as harm.

King, being the leader of a revolt against the human race for enslaving robots, would not reprogram one of his kind. Is that not obvious? He had to resort to different means to have Burner Man act as he did. Besides, King leads the ROBOT army, not the robot and one cyborg army.
This is a great answer.

oh wow, 9/11 2009, who would've known? ^^;
Worst nickname for a catastrophe ever.

Geneering would have to happen after the egg is fertilized, if you want the changes to definitely stick. Or of course you could just grow a clone from an unfertilized egg - either way, you don't have to bother with the sperm.
Is it spelt Dolly or Dollie? That cloned sheep. They put the [parasitic bomb] in the embryo after the fact. And essentially aborted the test subject. Interesting morality there.

Anyway, 0th law alone would allow Megaman to attack Wily, should it become necessary. It has priority over the first, just like the first has over the 2nd and 2nd over 3rd.
This 0th Law really sounds made up to me, like something that spread across the Internet like Zero killing everybody.

They could be enforced in the good robots, or not, and we wouldn't be able to tell.
There's a whole thing in I, Robot about a robot serving better as a prosecutor or mayor even. At one point it becomes the Coordinator of the world.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Zan on October 30, 2012, 11:50:56 AM
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This 0th Law really sounds made up to me, like something that spread across the Internet like Zero killing everybody.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robots_and_Empire

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The laws aren't that inflexible.

Asimov isn't Rockman, is the main point. While a similar concept, the implementation is entirely different to allow robots a greater semblance of free will. It means that robots, combining independent thought and reasoning with a set conscience, should not be killing people. These robots are kept in line by logic, morality, and sometimes by powering down their capabilities.

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Is it? Beats me. I heard an ultra nerd say that once. Zan, we need your awesomeness on this.

It is. RockmanX, the game, has English text with Japanese subs for that one scene. One of those nods that Dr. Right actually is american.

This is what it says in Japanese:

“X” is a new type of robot with more complex, human-like mental capabilities. However, these capabilities are also extremely dangerous. If “X,” of his own volition, ever broke the basic law of robotics, “A robot must not injure a human,” likely nothing could stop him, and the results would be fearsome.

If I had 30 years, it would be possible to confirm his safety. However, my life will not last that long, and there is no one to whom I can entrust my research. Therefore I will seal him in this capsule. This capsule will test his internal structure for me until his safety is confirmed. Until then, please do not open the capsule.

“X” is laden with both unlimited possibility and unlimited danger. I just hope it turns out for the best.

20XX 9/18 Thomas Light


And this is the expanded version from the manual:

“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”

The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…

I conclude that “X” is an extremely dangerous being. If I am to send “X” out into the world, he must have a verification period of 30 years at the least. However, I do not have that long to live, and regrettably there is no one who understands all my research to carry it on for me.

Therefore I seal “X” here. If by some chance there is someone who discovers this capsule, as long as “X’s” thinking has not been fully analyzed, please leave him untouched. “X” is a robot laden with both unlimited possibility and unlimited danger…

Sep. 18 AD20XX
T. Right


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That does not compute as harm.

It sure looked painful.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Melsurigan on November 08, 2012, 04:42:26 AM
You guys have some very good arguments, though there is one thing that bothers me about what some of you said:


The Classic series not being advanced enough for cyborg technology.


Do bear in mind that this is a game about a tiny little robot boy who has a weapon that can basically mimic powers with the help of a computer chip. That means that it consists of a certain kind of matter than can transform into different kinds of stuff, which is evident by having ammo pickups refill any weapon that Mega Man has on him at that moment. And let's not forget the ability to create acme-style bombs from thin air, artificial gravity reversal, and the power to stop time.


In comparison to the things mentioned above, cyborg technology could very well exist. It doesn't necessarily have to be perfect, but the Classic series leaves a lot open for interpretation compared to the rest of the Mega Man franchise. I apologize if I'm overthinking this, but I do enjoy a good discussion.



(BTW, I've read this topic and somebody mentioned some crap about Iris being a full human. Where, pray tell, is that article?)
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on November 08, 2012, 04:56:08 AM
(BTW, I've read this topic and somebody mentioned some crap about Iris being a full human. Where, pray tell, is that article?)
It wasn't a article per say so much that it was this one guy on the Megaman Network or something said it in one of their articles, and I think it had nothing to do with the article, and people tried to tell him that it's not true but he was stubborn about it.  I think Hypershell may remember where it was, since he's a member of other Megaman related places while I'm not.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Ladd Spencer on November 08, 2012, 05:41:50 AM
It's impossible because Iris and Colonel are two halves of one.
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: Sakura Leic on November 08, 2012, 06:43:03 AM
Found it, a guy named Omar was the one who started it.  It was when Iris was revealed to be in Project X Zone.

http://www.themmnetwork.com/2012/09/18/iris-joining-the-hunters-in-project-x-zone/comment-page-1/#comments
Title: Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
Post by: The Great Gonzo on November 08, 2012, 01:35:37 PM
The Classic series not being advanced enough for cyborg technology.

Well, it's kinda hard to prove that the technology for it existed in 20XX when no canonical cyborgs show up until ZERO. Plus, there's quite a bit of tech in Classic that has to be chalked up to a lack of realistic physics (or something like that).

(As for human!Iris, at least Omar had some evidence to back it up. Granted, the source books directly contradict all of it, but I'm fairly certain he didn't know that until someone on TMMN pointed it out)