RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: Blackhook on July 06, 2012, 07:03:10 PM
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Something I never understood in the X series. Why was reploid reviving considered Illegal?
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Because someone might try to revive a Maverick? I dunno...
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I would assume with AI getting closer to natural intelligence, reviving reploids would be considered equal to necromancy.
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Adding to what Acid said, there's an off-chance that reploid was a criminal "maverick" in his past life, increasing the chance of a maverick attack after the resurrection, though Zero's been "revived" numerous times thanks to dumb luck having his Personality Drive (and DNA Soul) managing to survive each time, similar to Sigma's survival due to him being a virus.
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As I recall, it's specifically "DNA Resurrection" that is considered illegal. Basically it amounts to cloning the dead Reploid's data as opposed to repairing it, two different things. Zero is technically considered "repaired" because his Control Chip miraculously survived intact (even though his body in X2 is pretty much all new).
I would imagine that there is, justifiably, some fear in such DNA manipulation going on unregulated. Creating Reploids from "nothing" that are alleged to be something they may well not be, that's unnerving enough. But an unexpected error, whether the original subject is Maverick or not, can be extraordinarily dangerous. See Copy X.
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Ill always remember that one chick in Command Mission who had that view on death like, you live on as part of a new Reploid when your parts are recycled. Thought that was a neat way for a reploid to look at death.
And yeah, DNA resurrection is illegal.
Basically, if you dont have it's original brain, it's dead Jim, you cant bring that back. You try, You break the law. Thats more like trying to drag the dead back from the netherworld.
see unlike Humans, when reploids die, you can just shove their brain into a new body if it is still intact. (Zero's done it at least twice)
Gate's Metal Shark Player in particular, got into big trouble because he was really into studying DNA resurrection, and Gate encouraged him. So they both got in trouble.
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It'd be nice if someone could supply the exact quote. If I recall right, the law might apply to Mavericks, not to Reploids in general.
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Ask, and ye shall get equipped with it:
"Metal Shark Player. An ex-investigator of Recycle
team. He studied recycling in order to create a new Reploid from Parts of disposed Mavericks.
His most important work was to analyze and control DNA data of the Mavericks. His analysis
ability was so great, that he succeeded in resurrecting dead Mavericks. Since DNA resurrection
is explicitly prohibited, the law instantly dealt with him. Gate was also interested in DNA
resurrection, so he encouraged him to collect the DNA data instead of stopping him. Metal
Shark would have continued if Gate had stopped him."
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I always liked Metal Shark Player, dunno why but him just bringing back dead mavericks has always made him an interesting boss for me.
You guys pretty much listed off the reasons why Reploid Reviving is illegal, though I've always found it weird that Reploids have DNA, even though they were created in labs, if you have DNA that means you are a living being, I never noticed how advanced the future in the X series and so on is, hell it makes you wonder if they can bring back dead humans as well, then again there is probably a law against that as well.
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I think "reploid DNA" is just data, given an organic-sounding name to make them seem more not-reploid.
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Yeah, it describes a functionally similar concept, but isn't similar in physical composition or anything (in fact reploid DNA isn't really physical at all).
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First of all, that's baseless speculation. To say they are functionally alike but different in composition is to merely split hairs over the storage medium, which in the case of Reploid DNA, we know nothing about (the "function" of DNA is information storage via a four base system). Secondly, assuming they are different, then at the very least one must be capable of mapping the other, or else Model A would be unable to copy a human Mega Man.
The idea of utilizing or mimicking biological information processing for technological purposes is a relatively common theme in sci-fi, so I don't know why Reploid DNA throws people for a loop. Just off the top of my head, there's Kiryuu's DNA computer (Godzilla) and Voyager's bio neural gel packs (Star Trek).
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The idea of utilizing or mimicking biological information processing for technological purposes is a relatively common theme in sci-fi, so I don't know why Reploid DNA throws people for a loop.
I think it's 'cuz they're inorganic robots.
(...I'll bet that at least some of them are the same people drawing/writing MM porn without a hint of irony.)
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Ask, and ye shall get equipped with it:
"Metal Shark Player. An ex-investigator of Recycle
team. He studied recycling in order to create a new Reploid from Parts of disposed Mavericks.
His most important work was to analyze and control DNA data of the Mavericks. His analysis
ability was so great, that he succeeded in resurrecting dead Mavericks. Since DNA resurrection
is explicitly prohibited, the law instantly dealt with him. Gate was also interested in DNA
resurrection, so he encouraged him to collect the DNA data instead of stopping him. Metal
Shark would have continued if Gate had stopped him."
So, DNA ressurection is explicitly prohibited, but the biggest problem with it is reviving Irregulars. Gotcha.
Kinda odd, though, since Dr. Vile and Neo Arcadia do it so regularly.
I've always found it weird that Reploids have DNA
DNA Program
Program that makes up the characteristics of a repliroid. Zero's Learning ability utilizes this, but Axl's ability to completely copy a repliroid is rare.
Erasure
The phenomenon where a repliroid's operation program disappears all the sudden. An erased repliroid loses all consciousness, reduced to being like so much scrap iron. During the Nightmare Incident, a phenomenon similar erasure happened to Isoc.
DNA Soul
A repliroid's operational [mobilization/movement] DNA program that has been pulled out. It appears that Berkana took the souls from the erased repliroids and inserted them for use in the bodies of Iregulars.
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First of all, that's baseless speculation. To say they are functionally alike but different in composition is to merely split hairs over the storage medium, which in the case of Reploid DNA, we know nothing about (the "function" of DNA is information storage via a four base system). Secondly, assuming they are different, then at the very least one must be capable of mapping the other, or else Model A would be unable to copy a human Mega Man.
The idea of utilizing or mimicking biological information processing for technological purposes is a relatively common theme in sci-fi, so I don't know why Reploid DNA throws people for a loop. Just off the top of my head, there's Kiryuu's DNA computer (Godzilla) and Voyager's bio neural gel packs (Star Trek).
They're functionally similar only in that they both describe the shape and workings of a being.
It might admittedly be a little too generic to say they're "functionally similar" from that alone, but it's the only way I could see why the name "DNA" was used, since normal DNA is used to shape an organic being as it grows, and it's a minor plot point in later series that reploids do not physically grow.
As Zan notes, there's DNA programs and DNA souls, and they're kind of distinct things (a DNA soul is a specific DNA program of a reploid, that has been pulled out) - as such I don't think it's unreasonable to think just "DNA" in the context of reploids describes their entire physical composition, in the form of data in cyberspace, since altering data in cyberspace also alters reality as we see it - otherwise it's hard to explain how Axl copying DNA leads to him changing his shape, rather than his mind.
As for mapping one to another, sure, why not. They don't need to be similar for that, just accurately translated.
So... I suppose it IS a whole lot of speculation, but mostly based on reasoning out some way of making the logic behind the stuff work together. It's more fun if it makes sense, to me, rather than just saying "robots have DNA, just like humans" and leaving it at that. But then I favour harder sci-fi.
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Secondly, assuming they are different, then at the very least one must be capable of mapping the other, or else Model A would be unable to copy a human Mega Man.
As for mapping one to another, sure, why not. They don't need to be similar for that, just accurately translated.
ZX alone provides more than enough precedence for the mapping of human DNA to Repliroid DNA programs. Albert's human form obtained a machine body, that DNA was not just embedded with the Chosen Ones (both Repliroids and humans with machine bodies) but also inherited by his human ancestors and converted into Ashe's machine body. And all that's before mentioning that humans can be converted into Cyber Elves like Repliroids can.
As Zan notes, there's DNA programs and DNA souls, and they're kind of distinct things (a DNA soul is a specific DNA program of a reploid, that has been pulled out) - as such I don't think it's unreasonable to think just "DNA" in the context of reploids describes their entire physical composition, in the form of data in cyberspace, since altering data in cyberspace also alters reality as we see it - otherwise it's hard to explain how Axl copying DNA leads to him changing his shape, rather than his mind.
I'm not sure whether we should attest the form changing ability of the copy chip to a cyberspace program rewrite, or the natural variability of Repliroids as derived from X's Limitless Potential (the two might very well be synonymous given Cyber Elves). In addition to the above, we see similar effects to the copy chip occur whenever a Repliroid's DNA is rewritten by the nightmare, which doesn't really give us any answer.
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If and when Archie Comics ever get around to writing Mega Man X comics, I hope they clear this bullshit up instead of prolong it or obfuscate it even more. I've never liked the use of the term DNA to describe anything about a Reploid. It sounds stupid, it's hardly ever explained well, and it's clearly misleading. I blame X3 for starting it all off with the Virus trend.
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Virus was around since X2, and probably planned from the beginning, since the Sigma/Wily connection sure was.
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ZX alone provides more than enough precedence for the mapping of human DNA to Repliroid DNA programs. Albert's human form obtained a machine body, that DNA was not just embedded with the Chosen Ones (both Repliroids and humans with machine bodies) but also inherited by his human ancestors and converted into Ashe's machine body. And all that's before mentioning that humans can be converted into Cyber Elves like Repliroids can.
[parasitic bomb], I forgot.
...I got nothing.
I'm not sure whether we should attest the form changing ability of the copy chip to a cyberspace program rewrite, or the natural variability of Repliroids as derived from X's Limitless Potential (the two might very well be synonymous given Cyber Elves). In addition to the above, we see similar effects to the copy chip occur whenever a Repliroid's DNA is rewritten by the nightmare, which doesn't really give us any answer.
I always assume any "magic" in MM is related to Cyberspace, since that's an established concept of the universe. It's something I can accept even if I don't really understand it at all.
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If and when Archie Comics ever get around to writing Mega Man X comics, I hope they clear this bullshit up instead of prolong it or obfuscate it even more. I've never liked the use of the term DNA to describe anything about a Reploid. It sounds stupid, it's hardly ever explained well, and it's clearly misleading. I blame X3 for starting it all off with the Virus trend.
X5 first introduced the term "DNA" into the series. It was subsequently explained by Soul Eraser. The only reason there's so much misunderstanding is because we never ever seem to get anything properly localized.
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Well, there's that. There's also the fact that ambiguity keeps the fanbase talking. :P
I think it's 'cuz they're inorganic robots.
(...I'll bet that at least some of them are the same people drawing/writing MM porn without a hint of irony.)
That's some fun food for thought, there. :V
But in all seriousness, that is an extraordinarily weak argument. Humankind has been capable of synthesizing organic substances since 1828. Urea, the first of which, is utilized in such "inorganic" applications as plastics, adhesives, explosives, and the reduction of air pollution. I probably shouldn't have to tell you that's just the tip of the iceberg.
DNA in the literal, "biological" sense, is a molecule. Plain and simple. Finding a new application for it in data processing, when you consider that's WHY it exists in the first place, is far less of a logical stretch than programming emotional responses and self-awareness.
And add to the pile that man-made DNA already exists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleic_acid_analogues).
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But in all seriousness, that is an extraordinarily weak argument.
Yeah, and it's pretty much the only one I remember seeing (if people accept it, they assume it's a fancy term for data, or Reploid-specific data storage or something).
I dunno whether or not Capcom's writing has led to such arbitrary amounts of "human" the fanbase will accept in their robots/Reploids (this, coming from someone who likes their robots fully-sentient/free-willed and sexually inert).
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Kobun #40 (http://www.rockmancorner.com/2008/06/design-magazine-right.html) would disappoint you.
(relax, it's a Protodude's Rockman Corner post)
Although, as with all "technological mimicking biological" discussions within the Mega Man series, the existence of Legends makes it a matter of "when", and not of "if" for other reasons.
In the grander scheme of sci-fi writing as a whole, though, anatomy and physiology at the end of the day boils down to one big complicated pile of chemical mechanisms. Any can be replicated with the appropriate level of scientific understanding. "Consciousness" itself is the biggest question mark in that phenomenon that we call life, so once we've crossed the bridge of creating THAT from scratch, I tend to not concern myself with how realistic the idea of mimicking anything else is.
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That's all well and good, especially from a perspective of time rather than plausibility, but there's at least one thing working against those observations: it's been established that Reploids are robots (androids, sentient machines, pick a term), not cyborgs. The fundamental theme and backdrop of the Classic and X games are that these are technologically sentient beings, not biologically or evolutionarily sentient. You could split hairs and say something like Reploids and/or machines are made up of molecules or could use DNA as a storage medium for machine code instructions, but at this stage in the continuity, Reploids are nevertheless more machine than human ... and yet perfectly emulating those sophisticated, human cognitive functions like love, fear, and cogito ergo sum--"I think, therefore I am". That's what makes them interesting, even with a hypothetical use of DNA as a storage medium, but only up to such a point where the uniqueness of Reploids as a sentient specimen is preserved relative to that of a human specimen. If the writers and the fans just accept conflating traditionally biological terms and constructs like DNA and viruses, or poetical psycho-spiritual terms like souls, then they risk glossing over what makes Reploids interesting: how can they be so human-like? How do Reploids succeed or fail to emulate human behavior, or more importantly, human thinking and judgment?
I'm perfectly fine with a robot race and a human race reaching a sort of biotechnological singularity, but treating them like they work the exact same way en route and not trying to explore that further disappoints me.
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Humans are machines too. Just made of different stuff. I dont find it a stretch for reploid DNA to contain their programming, weapons data and personality program and such. Also, do note that the way X and co switch hand from hand to buster or how Axl transforms, at least as far as MHX goes, seems to imply some level of nanotechnology too. i they have nano technology DNA, then its not a stretch at all.
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I'm perfectly fine with a robot race and a human race reaching a sort of biotechnological singularity, but treating them like they work the exact same way en route and not trying to explore that further disappoints me.
Agreed.
I've seen plenty of arguments in favour of robots/Reploids being "equipped" (mostly so that they can be "more human", which disregards their sentience and is really offensive to asexuals, like myself), and I just have to wonder...from a storyline standpoint, what's the point of them being robots/Reploids if they're exactly like humans (but usually with all the weaknesses and miscellaneous suck ironed out)? It's like a strategy game where all the factions have the exact same stats, abilities, etc.
(I think I helped derail the thread. D: )
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I am proud of you RPM. *wipes a tear*
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That's all well and good, especially from a perspective of time rather than plausibility, but there's at least one thing working against those observations: it's been established that Reploids are robots (androids, sentient machines, pick a term), not cyborgs. The fundamental theme and backdrop of the Classic and X games are that these are technologically sentient beings, not biologically or evolutionarily sentient. You could split hairs and say something like Reploids and/or machines are made up of molecules or could use DNA as a storage medium for machine code instructions, but at this stage in the continuity, Reploids are nevertheless more machine than human ... and yet perfectly emulating those sophisticated, human cognitive functions like love, fear, and cogito ergo sum--"I think, therefore I am". That's what makes them interesting, even with a hypothetical use of DNA as a storage medium, but only up to such a point where the uniqueness of Reploids as a sentient specimen is preserved relative to that of a human specimen. If the writers and the fans just accept conflating traditionally biological terms and constructs like DNA and viruses, or poetical psycho-spiritual terms like souls, then they risk glossing over what makes Reploids interesting: how can they be so human-like? How do Reploids succeed or fail to emulate human behavior, or more importantly, human thinking and judgment?
I'm perfectly fine with a robot race and a human race reaching a sort of biotechnological singularity, but treating them like they work the exact same way en route and not trying to explore that further disappoints me.
What you need to bear in mind is that the journey started in the Classic series. So in X, we're looking at neither the beginning nor the end, but rather one of several midpoints. While the specifics are often open to some degree of interpretation, X represents a "new generation" in robotics in that he established the independence of their consciousness from human guides, as well as the closest parallel ever developed to their emotional complexities. That does not necessarily mean that the topic of a Reploid's consciousness has no further room to advance in its journey to mimick the more subtle aspects of human consciousness, though; X went largely unsurpassed in the latter of those two traits for multiple centuries. The sharper, clearer distinction between X and first-generation Reploids was pretty much the entire point of Maverick Hunter X's story. Advancements in Reploid personality naturally progressed over time but some distinction still existed over the ages. Even by the Zero series there's still an arguably greater distinction made between humans and Reploids in their respective mentalities than in their outward appearances, most especially in Zero4. Reploids have a pretty shaky track record when it comes to things like empathy and ambition. ZX is the earliest game in which one could claim that the fundamental differences between Reploid and human mentalities had been overcome.
The physical side of Reploids and how closely they mimick biological life is not often touched upon due to it being largely irrelevant to a platforming action game. There are, however, some key points worth considering. Physical development of a Reploid's body is alleged to be a design possibility as early as Xtreme2 (among character artists, that is). Reploid children exist in Command Mission. Reploids consume Energen by ingestion during the Zero series. Humans may be relatively indistinct from Reploids in regards to casual observation during the Zero series. Between Zero and ZX several Reploid children are seen to grow older in appearance. The human machine body is also known to grow and develop during the ZX series. Finally, there's an NPC Reploid in ZX that references genetic lineage spanning 8 generations (thank Zan for spotting that one).
And then of course, there is Legends, where an entire planet's population is artificial in nature without ever realizing it. The emulation of "natural" life was perfected, yielding a self-sustaining culture completely ignorant to their origins. "Evolution" is not a viable theory if you still need to construct your offspring.
I've seen plenty of arguments in favour of robots/Reploids being "equipped" (mostly so that they can be "more human", which disregards their sentience and is really offensive to asexuals, like myself), and I just have to wonder...from a storyline standpoint, what's the point of them being robots/Reploids if they're exactly like humans (but usually with all the weaknesses and miscellaneous suck ironed out)? It's like a strategy game where all the factions have the exact same stats, abilities, etc.
See above on both mental and physical distinctions and how long they've endured.
Now I want to preface by saying that I sincerely doubt X is packing a smaller buster. But you could just as easily apply your argument to devalue romantic interest among Reploids as you could sexual interest. Likely no game will EVER tackle a Reploid's sexual characteristics beyond the secondary (again, see Xtreme2), where once again the same arguments could just as easily apply (What is the point of Reploid breasts, again?), but consider two things: One, the possibility of a given design not make it a requirement in all Reploid models. Two, the presence of any "equipment" on an individual Reploid does not make the use of it a necessity. While I concede that I know nothing about your own body, I sincerely doubt you're going to tell us that asexuality exists only as a matter of anatomical coincidence.
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While I concede that I know nothing about your own body, I sincerely doubt you're going to tell us that asexuality exists only as a matter of anatomical coincidence.
Definitely not; IIRC the fellow(s) I was arguing with seemed to be equating true humanity (in the mental sense) with sexual functionality and activity, because apparently asexual and agender people don't exist/are sub-human (and no one took into account the lack of humanity in sexually-functional/active animals). Whether not it was considered more important than sentience, I can't remember.
I wouldn't rule out romance, if only because of Zero/Iris, but I'd like to think that it plays out differently than the human variety, because I find psychological differences between robots/Reploids to be interesting (and why I find most MM porn to be annoying at best, because those differences are rarely even considered).
I would like to get back to topic, but I can't think of anything to say about robo-necromancy that hasn't already been pointed out...
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Neither can I. *shrugs* It's RPM. Topics change. The fact that we got this far without an ecchi pic is probably some kind of record.
I wouldn't rule out romance, if only because of Zero/Iris, but I'd like to think that it plays out differently than the human variety, because I find psychological differences between robots/Reploids to be interesting (and why I find most MM porn to be annoying at best, because those differences are rarely even considered).
Being intellectually provocative is not the purpose of porn.
Anyways, I should hope hope you wouldn't discount the ol' Zero/Iris factor since that particular relationship is canonical according to multiple books, most recently Mega Man X Official Complete Works. What I meant is that such things are just as easily dismissed from the cynical standpoint of serving no "practical" purpose outside of emulating humanity. But really, emulating humanity is the whole point; otherwise Light would have built Elysium units right from the get-go. Creating others of equal value to ourselves helps us to better understand and appreciate our own subtleties, one hopes, to the betterment of both parties. ZX is about as close to that ideal as we've seen until it all came crashing down sometime between then and Legends.
In questioning the validity of a sexually functional Reploid, you must first question the functional purpose of sex among humans. There are three answers to that one: Reproduction, pleasure, and the consummation of a relationship. I think we can safely agree that sexual reproduction among Reploids is out of the question for at least a couple of centuries. Likewise, creating such a design for the sole purpose of pleasure is largely pointless and is the main reason that the casual observer is quick to dismiss the idea. The third answer, however, is where things come into play, as it provides both an emotional and a sociological validation. Now, it is true that in any given individual the idea of living a full emotionally developed life in the absence of sexuality is perfectly valid. However, that is but one possible course of life among many, and as your "human derivative" population of Reploids grows and the relationships grow more numerous and diverse within it, the topic of sex becomes an eventuality, whether the anatomical design accommodates it or not. If it does, someone will ask why, and if it doesn't, someone will notice the difference, and ask why not. Either way they will pursue an answer. The important distinction to make, then, is that when dealing outside of the "practical" purpose of reproduction, it is humanity (or the "human" traits, if you will, of emotion, social structure, and curiosity) that justifies sexuality, not the other way around.
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If I remember my reaction to that other conversation correctly, no one gave me an answer along those lines; would've been much less bitter if they had.
(On a side(?) note, someone pointed out that it would be "cruel" not to give Reploids naughty bits, and while I didn't actually say it, my reaction was something like "the same humans who would cry "Maverick" if a Reploid spilled some lukewarm coffee, would give them the ability to do it?". Not trying to disregard what you've just said, but in the context of anything before ZERO or ZX, "it would be cruel" seemed like a gigantic stretch to me.)
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Who says there's no seX in Mega Man X?
Joking aside, I get that each series in the Mega Man continuity demonstrates a snapshot of the robot society's development, but my problem with the X series in particular is with the devil in the details. That devil is disappointment, as it were. It disappoints me not just because they conflate traditionally biological terms with a race of purely technological beings (as opposed to a cyborg race like the Borg), but also because the overall drama bores me. Reploids are portrayed so much like humans and given scary epidemics like viruses and soul erasures that I fail to see what makes them interesting outside of X and Zero being badasses. Viruses are like, well, viruses; soul erasures are a fancy way of saying their hard drives got wiped and are now vegetables (or just clinically dead); and Reploid revival is necromancy/resurrection. Worse yet, Reploid revival and soul erasures could've been fleshed out a bit more, but they seemed more like throw-away plot devices or minor details based on their mentions in one or two games. The last two games put cloning in front-and-center, which is fine, but doesn't that almost make Reploid revival irrelevant?
I guess I'm asking too much from what is essentially an action game, but then if that's the case, maybe the action game is getting too dramatic and ambitious for it's own good. Or maybe it's just doing it all wrong and doesn't know what kind of story it wants to tell. Revenge, romance, tragedy, apocalypse, ascension to godhood, evolution. It's become a case of Flavor of the Day with the theming, don't you think? The central theme from X1 seems to have become largely irrelevant in favor of light by-the-game experimentation with a hodgepodge of different themes, all told with presentations that either interrupt gameplay or are interrupted by gameplay.
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Heh, to flesh out these things you'd think they would turn Megaman X into an RPG by now...oh wait. Kinda dissapointing that Command Mission wasn't much different story wise than the action games
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It was still definitely story heavier than most X games though.
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But was it much better or more memorable than X1?
I pretty much consider X1 to be the gold standard of how to convey story in an action game like Mega Man X. Mega Man 7 gets honorable mention. Zero and ZX do a decent job, but I feel bogged down by the story moreso than I'm interested in it.
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I don't consider X1's story particularly deep or interesting, it just HAPPENS to be well balanced and well executed for the purpose of moving an action game.
I mean, it basically goes: "Robots decide they're better off without humans, and our hero taps into some unknown power along the way." Um, yay? The deep central theme as I perceive it is growing more powerful to spite evil people who underestimated you. And that's pretty consistently referenced across nearly every game in the series, possibly barring X7 and Xtreme1.
If you really wanted to, I suppose you could argue that further similarities with human conditions render humanity redundant thus referencing the former point as well (although, really, "computer virus" is a real and valid technological term, so I gotta call bull on criticizing that one).
The Copy Chip isn't really "revival" because in theory it was to duplicate only the body, for use as a temporary tool by a previously existing and completely independent individual. The complications that arose along the way are the big twist, particularly since they challenge pre-conceived notions about viral threats.
(On a side(?) note, someone pointed out that it would be "cruel" not to give Reploids naughty bits, and while I didn't actually say it, my reaction was something like "the same humans who would cry "Maverick" if a Reploid spilled some lukewarm coffee, would give them the ability to do it?". Not trying to disregard what you've just said, but in the context of anything before ZERO or ZX, "it would be cruel" seemed like a gigantic stretch to me.)
Oh, I can certainly see and appreciate that line of logic. It's a valid point. But there are two things to consider on top of that. The first is that there is a likely difference between mentalities of the individual designer and the dumb, panicky masses. The second is that it is not in the least unusual for Reploids to design other Reploids.
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Oh, I can certainly see and appreciate that line of logic. It's a valid point. But there are two things to consider on top of that. The first is the difference between mentalities of the individual designer and the dumb, panicky masses. The second is that it is not in the least unusual for Reploids to design other Reploids.
Point taken.
I probably shouldn't keep referring back to that other thread if my memories of it are hazy, but I don't think anyone brought those points up, so to me, the whole thing came off as "it works because we say it works". Not unlike SMeyer and her sparklepires, really.
If you really wanted to, I suppose you could argue that further similarities with human conditions render humanity redundant thus referencing the former point as well
Maybe that's why there's so few prominent humans in the X series that I can think of (D. Cain, the US-continuity-exclusive Bradbury K. Wells--assuming he was human--and Deneb and Phoebe if Rockman Online survives)?
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(On a side(?) note, someone pointed out that it would be "cruel" not to give Reploids naughty bits,
My reaction to seeing a reploid "nude" every time:
"How the steamin' hell do they take them off on their own?! It would've very much required a re-fitting from a battle body into a civillian one by machine."
Which confuses the hell out of me since underneath the "armor" would be nothing but wiring, metal, coolants, and all that technical stuff. Have you drawn a reploid getting caught "stripping down" yet?
Aside from Reploids and human nature, reploid "sexuality" hasn't been touched as otherwise the series would've seen a nice, big, letter "M" on the game box.
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Which confuses the hell out of me since underneath the "armor" would be nothing but wiring, metal, coolants, and all that technical stuff. Have you drawn a reploid getting caught "stripping down" yet?
Well, Rock Light can remove his armour, so it's generally assumed that most Reploids can, too. Even the less humanoid Mavericks, apparently.
That reminds me--Hypershell once brought up that X is the only Megaman who hasn't been seen out of his armour or even helmetless yet (he regularly went helmetless in Novas Aventuras de Megaman, but that's an alternate continuity). Strange, considering how "human" he's meant to be.
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That reminds me--Hypershell once brought up that X is the only Megaman who hasn't been seen out of his armour or even helmetless yet (he regularly went helmetless in Novas Aventuras de Megaman, but that's an alternate continuity). Strange, considering how "human" he's meant to be.
I don't recall that one, although I do often comment on Trigger being "more human" than the general public seems to believe based on Legends2's opening, so the topic may have come up.
It is one of the major continuity oddities to me, though; that Rock is capable of removing his armor (and at least frequently removes his helmet) and yet X, his successor who is supposed to be a revolutionary bridge in the gap between humans and robots, has never been seen to. I mean, we already know that he sleeps in it, as does Zero. When you think about it there should be no design reason that X couldn't sport a "casual" look, given that his armor programs are known to reconstruct his body to some degree already (certain armors include translucent parts and/or dimensions that clearly do not "overlap" with X's default armor). Rock, by comparison, has no other reason to be switching body modes outside of the usual hand/buster deal.
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Again, there's NAdM, but again, it's not the same continuity. Thinking on it, though, NAdM-X didn't seem to be too different tech-wise from Rock, the latter's 30-years-worth-of-upgrades aside, and he's the version of X who gets to remove his helmet...huh. (As far as I know, Iwamoto-X didn't remove the helmet either; Zero got to, though)
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I don't consider X1's story particularly deep or interesting, it just HAPPENS to be well balanced and well executed for the purpose of moving an action game.
I mean, it basically goes: "Robots decide they're better off without humans, and our hero taps into some unknown power along the way." Um, yay? The deep central theme as I perceive it is growing more powerful to spite evil people who underestimated you. And that's pretty consistently referenced across nearly every game in the series, possibly barring X7 and Xtreme1.
Well, I wouldn't say it's referenced so much as it goes without saying, but the reason I praised X1's story aspect was because of how well it executed that basic narrative, not because the narrative was deep in and of itself. It could have been deeper, had more content, and probably been better for it, but then it also risks bogging itself down with too much story for a fun action game, and the more story you have, the more likely you are of losing your audience. It's worth pointing out here that the audience here is very different from the audience of moviegoers or the well-read, so there's some important design tradeoffs to be considered here.
I think it comes down to a well-crafted story (and yes, it's fairly subjective, but I'll just say "less is more" in this case), a well-crafted game, a group of very talented artists and composers to give the meat and potatoes a distinctly memorable flavour; and a director that believes less is more and unifies both story and gameplay together into an effective, interactive experience with that philosophy in mind. That's how and why X1 succeeds to me: it might not be working with much in the way of story, but it gets that and everything else just right. The story's not everything, but if you're going to have one and bank on it, then make it a good story. Or a handful of good stories, like an episodic TV drama or something. Just make sure the action ties in really well with the story, if only in just a few well-placed, well-choreographed scenes.
If you really wanted to, I suppose you could argue that further similarities with human conditions render humanity redundant thus referencing the former point as well (although, really, "computer virus" is a real and valid technological term, so I gotta call bull on criticizing that one).
Computer viruses are legit, so you got me there. Assuming Reploids are constantly connecting to any one of several wireless networks each day, and there are just some free-floating packets of data the most robust anti-virus or viral prevention mechanisms (like NoScript and do not automatically download cookies) cannot defend against, they could make themselves extremely vulnerable to Trojans, spyware and rootkits at any time. I can accept that, but while I guess we could take the next step and start calling source code DNA, I'd still say it just sounds really, really stupid and I don't like it. I'd much rather Reploids be treated like what they are: highly sophisticated, self-aware, silicon-based computers with robotic appendages, senses, and feelings governed by human-engineered computer programming, not biological or natural programming. If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?
Sorry if I'm playing the part of debby-downer here, but I don't mean to be taken too seriously. I'm just making the point that the more Reploids are explained in biological terms, the less their uniqueness shows. Just because computer viruses are a legit thing doesn't mean "Reploid DNA" or "DNA Souls" are too. I definitely don't buy it. I'm interested in how humans succeeded and failed in making beings like Reploids in their image with nothing but a box of scraps, not in how nature or the universe managed to become aware of itself through humans over billenias of time.
The Copy Chip isn't really "revival" because in theory it was to duplicate only the body, for use as a temporary tool by a previously existing and completely independent individual. The complications that arose along the way are the big twist, particularly since they challenge pre-conceived notions about viral threats.
Something that could've been easily challenged anywhere between the onset and the aftermath of the Doppler incident without them. This is another one of my problems with the Maverick Virus: what makes a Reploid a Maverick? Is it the fundamental capacity for free will they've been programmed with, or free-floating viral code they can't defend against and makes them go all mad-cow and stuff? The answer could be either one, which turns this into a socio-political propaganda scare incident not unlike the McCarthy Red Scare. Unfortunately, the accepted narrative just became the latter and eventually led to magical Cyber Elves curing everything oh for [tornado fang]'s sake forget this I'm outta here--
*stamp* *stamp* *stamp*
*slams door*
*until the year 800X
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I'm just making the point that the more Reploids are explained in biological terms, the less their uniqueness shows.
It wouldn't surprise me if this was the reason, at least in part, why humans and Reploids became more-or-less one and the same by ZX.
The Carbons could've had a hand in it too, but from what I heard, Capcom was once vague about Legends being the distant future or past, so they could've settled on "past" if they felt they'd written themselves into a corner...though that'd open up another can of worms regarding "humans" and robots, methinks.
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(As far as I know, Iwamoto-X didn't remove the helmet either; Zero got to, though)
He has, at least 3 times that I can remember, but he never actually showed X's head without his helmet. The closest we got was this (http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg528/scaled.php?server=528&filename=x403083.jpg&res=landing)
Im just gonna guess that since X was built primarily as a battle robot, Light just never really bothered to give him a civilian form, and instead concentrated on making him tougher, stronger, and more advanced in AI.
I'd much rather Reploids be treated like what they are: highly sophisticated, self-aware, silicon-based computers with robotic appendages, senses, and feelings governed by human-engineered computer programming, not biological or natural programming. If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?
I think you are just overthinking DNA as far as the X series goes. Robot DNA is their source code basically. Contains everything that makes them who they are. Their personality program, their weapons data, even their appearance data. by using that, X and Zero can get new moves based on that Reploid's specific weapon ability. While Axl and New Gens, can use the appearance data to morph into that Reploid, with what i can only assume is some kind of molecular level nanotechnology or liquid metal technology akin to Double's.
You dont have to envision it as some kind of organic thing, after all, when robots blow up in the X series, they still have all kinds of metal junk in them, not guts. and yet still have DNA. If an energy based free floating computer virus can exist, Robot dna can too.
what makes a Reploid a Maverick? Is it the fundamental capacity for free will they've been programmed with, or free-floating viral code they can't defend against and makes them go all mad-cow and stuff? The answer could be either one, which turns this into a socio-political propaganda scare incident not unlike the McCarthy Red Scare.
The very definition of Maverick, is, in the original japanese word- to be "irregular". Which is self explanatory. it means you are not functioning regularly. As far as X series goes, Mavericks are only those who malfunction due to some kind of bug, glitch or virus.
I can only recall once where it was used as a label, and that was X4. But X4 in it's entirety, was caused by one big misunderstanding between both sides perpetrated by Sigma and a traitor within the Hunters. The Hunter hierarchy had genuine reason to declare Repliforce Maverick. They were framed for dropping an entire floating city/highway thing- down on top of the City below, annihilating it. And when it's Colonel was asked to come in for questioning, he vainly refused, and even encouraged the Hunters to call him and his men Mavericks if they wanted. From there, the entire Repliforce declared independence from Humanity. They declared it was not about rebellion, but it just came across as turning tail and running away.
Only once the Energy Crisis started in Neo Arcadia under Copy-X's watch, did the term begin to be misused as a way to commit mass Reploid genocide for the sake of pleasing the Humans. And anyone who would dare oppose this, was also labeled Maverick. When Weil took over, he would declare anyone who opposed or decried him as Maverick, even if they were Human. Afterward, by ZX, the term returns to more or less the same meaning as the X series.
And by Legends, it's meaning seems to be a bit ambiguous, since those who go against the system are considered Irregulars, (Abberants in the English version)but we dont quite know the circumstances there, since it seems the system liked to keep a pretty tight leash around it's Robots, limiting their intelligence, not allowing them to think outside the system's parameters, so it's possible that simply anyone who dared to question the system was put down, along with any who malfunctioned. Trigger rebelled against the System on the Master's last command, and was considered an Irregular.
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He has, at least 3 times that I can remember, but he never actually showed X's head without his helmet. The closest we got was this (http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg528/scaled.php?server=528&filename=x403083.jpg&res=landing)
Never saw that image before; thanks for posting that.
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Computer viruses are legit, so you got me there. Assuming Reploids are constantly connecting to any one of several wireless networks each day, and there are just some free-floating packets of data the most robust anti-virus or viral prevention mechanisms (like NoScript and do not automatically download cookies) cannot defend against, they could make themselves extremely vulnerable to Trojans, spyware and rootkits at any time. I can accept that, but while I guess we could take the next step and start calling source code DNA, I'd still say it just sounds really, really stupid and I don't like it. I'd much rather Reploids be treated like what they are: highly sophisticated, self-aware, silicon-based computers with robotic appendages, senses, and feelings governed by human-engineered computer programming, not biological or natural programming. If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?
You seem too fixated on how things are named, rather than what they are defined as.
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Well, yeah. I think it's pretty stupid to say that Reploids have deoxyribonucleic acid, if only because of the misleading implications it makes by its very use, but again, it's just a symptom of the problem I see with the X series as a whole: a poorly written, poorly executed story with characters that are memorable for little more than their power-boom-slash-cool-armor sex appeal, at least after X1. They've got a lot of potential to be more and better than what they are, especially X, but with the current track record I've mostly seen that potential either failed or ignored. Maybe the answer for the series is to be less rather than trying to be more--more dramatic, more serious, more heavy, etc. I find the questions of the how's and why's really fascinating, but maybe TMI is TMI in some cases.
The X series is reputed to have a much darker feel than Classic or Legends in comparison, but when you strip away all that narrative overlay and get down to the bare bones of the matter, what do you really like about the games or even the characters? Is it that much different from the way the Classic games played? It was definitely more hard-hitting with real death and sacrifice (until revival's brought into play), but the way the story and the action played out against each other wasn't all that different: minimal text, some character interaction, all action. And it still felt powerful. I feel like there isn't much to lose from chucking out the present drama that's been constructed, with some of it's sillier jargon; taking the good ideas that can be salvaged it, and starting over. One of the smaller things is rethinking the technical explanations behind what makes a Reploid a Reploid or what helps define the world of 21XX, but the bigger picture is what kind of story Mega Man X tells and how well it tells it. It may not even need a grand story; just a handful of plainly serviceable ones that convey a great, dramatic action game experience. Something less wordy and more theatrical. Remember how Super Metroid handled it's narrative? It was a lot more show and little to no tell. Even mere tone goes a long way to define an experience; Alien is a great example of this amidst its louder, more overt siblings.
I guess to rap this tangent up a bit, I'll say that even the mere concept of Reploid reviving as a plot device, while not a bad device or theme in and of itself, is symbolic of what's wrong with the series: a lack of respect for the dignity and finality of death in storytelling. Also how too much patchwork storytelling can muddle a good action romp.
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To be fair, Zero doesn't just magically come back in X2, and there's still the chance that he won't come back right. (X5/X6 is another story in both English and JP, I think.)
Iris is still dead, with no hope of revival; same goes for Colonel, Middy, and Techno, for the same reasons (though it seems a lot of fans forget that Iris, despite hints that she still cared for Zero somewhat, tried to murder his ass dead, and have her come back as if she didn't and everything's all sunshine and rainbows). I think any other dead Reploids could potentially be brought back, but it's still not quite on the level of Marvel and DC. (At least I hope not, or else I just made an ass of myself)
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To be fair, Zero doesn't just magically come back in X2, and there's still the chance that he won't come back right. (X5/X6 is another story in both English and JP, I think.)
Actually, he kinda does. It's not like X1 left off with an end note that said, "Well, Zero's still backed up at HQ and stuff. He'll be back." He died honorably on the field of battle, and that's how the game ended. Not that I wasn't thrilled to see him back in X2, like everyone else, but now it just seems like a cheap deus ex machina the writers pulled out of their netherports.
Iris is still dead, with no hope of revival; same goes for Colonel, Middy, and Techno, for the same reasons (though it seems a lot of fans forget that Iris, despite hints that she still cared for Zero somewhat, tried to murder his ass dead, and have her come back as if she didn't and everything's all sunshine and rainbows). I think any other dead Reploids could potentially be brought back, but it's still not quite on the level of Marvel and DC. (At least I hope not, or else I just made an ass of myself)
And they were better games for it, especially X4. Unfortunately, I think the makeup of Xtreme as a grabbag of recycled levels and music, ported the Game Boy Color, undermined the impact those characters and their story had on the game and the X universe. Might've also been the half-baked direction of the game's action. It was sad to see Middy die, but nowhere near as much as when Zero died. The way that whole event was built up to and orchestrated, it was a real punch in the heart that galvanized your motivation to stomp ass all the way to the top. With Middy, didn't he die at the very end, after all had been said and done?
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Actually, he kinda does. It's not like X1 left off with an end note that said, "Well, Zero's still backed up at HQ and stuff. He'll be back." He died honorably on the field of battle, and that's how the game ended. Not that I wasn't thrilled to see him back in X2, like everyone else, but now it just seems like a cheap deus ex machina the writers pulled out of their netherports.
Within the scope of an action game that shows little beyond the immediate. Do you think such a recovery operation could have been mentioned anywhere but the next game's manual? It was actually described in there, until some tidbits of localization removed it in full.
The only true objection to Zero's revival not being part of the plan from the very beginning is the ending line: "those who sacrificed themselves for the victory will never return." But that wasn't in the Japanese script either.
Well, yeah. I think it's pretty stupid to say that Reploids have deoxyribonucleic acid, if only because of the misleading implications it makes by its very use
The term is DNA data, though. For all we know it is coded like its biological counterpart. The information it contains is able to be converted from human to robot and vice versa as we established earlier. Using the term "DNA" definitely eased up the transition toward ZX.
I guess to rap this tangent up a bit, I'll say that even the mere concept of Reploid reviving as a plot device, while not a bad device or theme in and of itself, is symbolic of what's wrong with the series: a lack of respect for the dignity and finality of death in storytelling. Also how too much patchwork storytelling can muddle a good action romp.
The story concept of DNA resurrection was born from gameplay dating back to X1, MM1 even. Remember the boss rematches? Besides, it's not like it's easy, or legal to do for that matter. Whenever it is attempted, the result is often a mindless shell of the Repliroid that once was.
With Middy, didn't he die at the very end, after all had been said and done?
Middy died in the 'middle' of Cyber Mission's story, sort of.
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Within the scope of an action game that shows little beyond the immediate. Do you think such a recovery operation could have been mentioned anywhere but the next game's manual? It was actually described in there, until some tidbits of localization removed it in full.
The point is Zero simply came back in spite of the conclusive role he played in X1. The justification's not really relevant next to the reason of why he was killed only to be revived shortly after. The answer to that is because everyone liked Zero, but most especially Inafune and the Mega Man X team. I guess I can't blame them, but then why have him killed at all? So people will want him even more? If so, then why keep X around? I'm going off into a whole nother tangent, but you see where this is going.
The term is DNA data, though. For all we know it is coded like its biological counterpart. The information it contains is able to be converted from human to robot and vice versa as we established earlier. Using the term "DNA" definitely eased up the transition toward ZX.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH--you see what's happening, though? It's just like I said: we're already conflating human anatomy with Reploid construction, and it's too early for that in the X series. Way too early. Hell, it's even unnecessary. It'd make more sense to just call in nanomachine data than DNA data, if we're going with nanomachine fluid as the blood and matter of a Reploid. Either way, I'd much rather the uniqueness of these two sentient races be maintained and explored, at least within the confines of the X series, before they're synthesized into a singular cyborg race.
Also, wouldn't the phrase "DNA data" be properly read as "information about (an organism's) DNA"? How about program code instead? The interesting thing about program code is that not only are there several different kinds of programming languages, but a machine's software is often divided by at least two layers of program code: higher level programming (your Java, C++, or SQL code) and assembly code (your 1s and 0s). In the case of Java via the portable JVM, it's three layers: the high level Java syntax, the middle level byte code, and finally the assembly code. I haven't opened my biology textbook in a while, but isn't this distinct from how DNA governs or influences variation? That reminds me of another point: mutation. How would program code mutate and evolve? Can it? Ooh! And then there's some exciting development now with quantum computing, where any given state of a circuit board switch could be 1 and 0 at the same time instead of exclusively one or the other.
The story concept of DNA resurrection was born from gameplay dating back to X1, MM1 even. Remember the boss rematches? Besides, it's not like it's easy, or legal to do for that matter. Whenever it is attempted, the result is often a mindless shell of the Repliroid that once was.
It seems like the rather lofty term of "DNA resurrection" could actually describe something a little more mundane, like the robot being repaired, having had another copy manufactured for backup, or "cloned" with a machine (which reminds me of bottom-up manufacturing (https://www.google.com/search?q=bottom-up+manufacturing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)).
Middy died in the 'middle' of Cyber Mission's story, sort of.
Hm. My memory's fuzzy. I'm almost certain I remember seeing him die at the end after you've killed Techno, but then I'm not sure whether that comes before or after you fight Sigma.
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To be fair, Zero doesn't just magically come back in X2, and there's still the chance that he won't come back right. (X5/X6 is another story in both English and JP, I think.)
Iris is still dead, with no hope of revival; same goes for Colonel, Middy, and Techno, for the same reasons
Well, if you put some aspects from another series, say, Digimon which has similar aspects on the concept of death and rebirth, it could make a hell of a lot more sense. As you know, Digimon has this "data core" that keeps them kicking even after the most fatal of wounds, as the damage is so bad they revert back into their fresh data to recover from that kind of damage, and it is actually explained so it makes sense. Because their data cores were completely destroyed and had no backup unit, thus making them dead for good.
So if we apply some of that with the X series' concept of revival, it would just make much more sense since Zero's CPU is seemingly invincible.
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Zero's CPU is just lucky.
And I still done see what the big deal is. You are getting all worked up over what something is named. Thats like arguing over Rockman vs Mega Man. What it's called doesnt matter as much as what it is. It is the robot equivalent of DNA. it fulfills the same role, and when it's used to revive Reploids, they come back as copies, not the originals. Clones, if you will. DNA resurrection is little more than cloning a Reploid from it's DNA data. The data that contains who they are and every detail about them, sans their actual mind.
Now, When Gate resurrected his creations, are we to assume all their control chips miraculously survived, or that with DNA resurrection is possible to actually revive the Reploid? I mean, we know that Dr. Weil, once cyber elves came about, is an expert at literally pulling a Robot's ghost out of cyberspace to revive them and not just their body.
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It's like saying "God did it", or "a wizard" if you'd like. It explains little if not nothing about what's happening, or it gives a flimsy explanation, and isn't much more than a cheap plot device. Now, you shouldn't need to take computer courses in order to get the behind-the-scenes details of Mega Man X, but what I'm saying is it could start to be a lot more interesting and sensible with the right nomenclature. The naming is just a start, and more a pet peeve of mine; what it points to is the bigger picture I've talked about: if you're going to have big detailed stories, it helps if they make the most sense. A good story could work with or around some flaws, like the possessed arm in Metal Gear Solid, but Mega Man X doesn't really have a great narrative. It has good theming and some decent settings, but not great stories.
Also, the term "virus" works in both biology and computer/network science because it's actually a general term that describes a malignant agent. With DNA, you're describing an acid, with a specific function(s), that occurs in nature as opposed to human-engineered technology. It's two different provinces, and that's what should make the story of Mega Man X interesting: the provinces of man and Reploid.
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I'd like to see Inti Creates do a Mega Man X game. Not only would they nail gameplay, but since they love narrative and story, we would get a hell of an experience.
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Sounds pretty awesome.
Too late for established concepts, tho'.
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pfft, never too late. Whatever is there can just be refined. MHX did that just fine.
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Retconning's also on the table. ;)
I've got some faith in IntiCreates. Most (if not all of) their team worked on the first 5 X games and the handheld games after them. They're not perfect, but they're more than competent, and they should do more than well given the right environment: strong budget, good direction, good platform (16-bit pls), and a now rich bed of experience to draw from. I think they just need to go back to basics a bit and play around with the VWS a bit more. The stuff that's going in ZX now is all over the place, but I would LOVE to see the X games remade. MHX seemed like a pretty good start, but I think they could do even better than that.
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Back when I remember, being rebuilt origionally was a way to explain the "lives" part in the games mechanics in a sense. I think they kinda pushed it to a new level when the virus was first mentioned.
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I don't recall that ever being an explanation for lives...
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Jeez, I laxed in watching this thread...
(though it seems a lot of fans forget that Iris, despite hints that she still cared for Zero somewhat, tried to murder his ass dead, and have her come back as if she didn't and everything's all sunshine and rainbows)
It's not exactly a "hint" when she spends her entire deathbed telling Zero how badly she wanted to live with him.
Upon installing Colonel's chip Iris triggered "rejection symptoms" within herself, and is described as "out of control" (both quotes from Servbot20's collected info). Now the finer details of what those statements mean are up to debate, I suppose, but suffice to say there is a reason she and Colonel were not the same Reploid to begin with. Their personality traits are not compatible and in trying to merge them she was no longer able to function properly. Iris's body had only a few scuffs; her death is "internal" because she corrupted her own systems. And, as I often point out, the perceived direct conflict between her and Zero is actually the result of the player; Iris ejects the crystal on her own if Zero's in critical condition, so you don't really have to attack her to win that fight. It still ends with the same result.
If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?
Again, this is all a matter of "when" not of "if", but in the Classic/X context, we see many robots with faces of comparable expression and elasticity to a human's, so...yeah, not sure where your point is on that one.
Even assuming literal use of the term "DNA", nucleic acid as a storage medium does not necessitate the presence of protein, cell structure, capillaries, etc. We merely associate those with it because it's the "biological" application. But once we've crossed the bridge of manipulating it for a new application, we are in no way obligated to direct it towards the construction of those same structures. That's about as logical as claiming that because you have an SD card in your digital camera, anyone who has an SD card must also be using it for photography.
Just because computer viruses are a legit thing doesn't mean "Reploid DNA" or "DNA Souls" are too.
I feel the need to point out that the "soul" is NOT a biological term, but a philosophical one, and it is not clearly defined. Depending on who you ask, a "soul" may be considered by definition part of any self-aware entity. To say this term is not to apply to Reploids is to say that Reploids are not permitted their own sense of philosophy, which is to say they are incapable of thinking independently. We know this is not the case.
This is another one of my problems with the Maverick Virus: what makes a Reploid a Maverick? Is it the fundamental capacity for free will they've been programmed with, or free-floating viral code they can't defend against and makes them go all mad-cow and stuff? The answer could be either one, which turns this into a socio-political propaganda scare incident not unlike the McCarthy Red Scare. Unfortunately, the accepted narrative just became the latter and eventually led to magical Cyber Elves curing everything oh for [tornado fang]'s sake forget this I'm outta here
Anyone who has played X8 or MHX ought to know that the answer is both. The only excuse to not pick that up is failure to think through a story that is presented in the context of an action game; similar to how everyone ignores Zero's capsule dialogue when criticizing his account of his return in X6. Many players, unfortunately, have a tendency to look no deeper than the surface. "If a virus makes Reploids go Maverick then it MUST be the only reason they go Maverick." Such a statement is justified only by naivety. The unknowns of the possible causes of Maverick behavior have been touched upon in MHX, X4, X8, and XCM. All of these titles make it clear that "Maverick" is in fact a label, well before it became as loosely used as it was in the Zero series.
With DNA, you're describing an acid
The same acid you're describing with a virus before computers were invented. Repurposing terms for new technology is a very real practice in the world.
But again, even assuming literal use, this is an acid that is the oldest known storage medium in existence, to which man-made analogues actually exist in the real world. I'm sorry, Treleus, but I can't see that as anything but nitpicking. Besides, I've always seen the theme of how Reploids compare and contrast to humanity as being more a matter of mentality than anatomy. Especially because X's (known) anatomy is a step BACKWARDS from Rock in terms of how closely they match humans.
The Carbons could've had a hand in it too, but from what I heard, Capcom was once vague about Legends being the distant future or past, so they could've settled on "past" if they felt they'd written themselves into a corner...though that'd open up another can of worms regarding "humans" and robots, methinks.
I've not heard that one, but if there is any merit to it, it would apply only to the early segment of the Legends series' life. When the Zero series was up and coming, Legends was described as "thousands of years after the X-series."
Im just gonna guess that since X was built primarily as a battle robot, Light just never really bothered to give him a civilian form, and instead concentrated on making him tougher, stronger, and more advanced in AI.
I sincerely doubt Light wanted X to be anymore "primarily a battle robot" than Rock was. Obviously he made sure he was well prepared, his experience giving him plenty of reason to do so, but I'm sure Light would have been ecstatic had X been able to live a peaceful life.
I guess if I had to come up with some justification, one might be able to argue that the first independent artificial life form being "too human" in appearance would create a greater degree of skepticism and unease among people who are already slow to accept him. That's kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel, though.
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And, as I often point out, the perceived direct conflict between her and Zero is actually the result of the player; Iris ejects the crystal on her own if Zero's in critical condition, so you don't really have to attack her to win that fight.
So if she didn't intend to kill him, what was she planning on doing with him afterwards (I'm guessing she didn't know that installing Colonel's CPU would make her implode)?
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It's nigh impossible to answer that without speculating, but I personally see Iris as installing the chip out of desperation to hold onto her brother, either not thinking of or simply not caring about the consequences due to her extreme grief. Ideally, she did want Zero removed from the battle with Repliforce, but I'm not convinced that she was thinking that far ahead before she installed the chip.
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Guys, I might let you finish...but you are all just going REALLY offtopic right now and your arguments bring no answers.
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And I still done see what the big deal is. You are getting all worked up over what something is named.
This coming from the guy who got worked up over a helmet.
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Guys, I might let you finish...but you are all just going REALLY offtopic right now and your arguments bring no answers.
We supplied all relevant "cold hard facts" to the highly philosophical question of reviving from the dead quite some time ago. If you feel there is more to explore, by all means, offer some follow-up questions.
Well, I guess I could pick apart this:
So, DNA ressurection is explicitly prohibited, but the biggest problem with it is reviving Irregulars. Gotcha.
Kinda odd, though, since Dr. Vile and Neo Arcadia do it so regularly.
I'd be more concerned with the fact that X himself copies MSP's criminal activities in X6. Though it is possible some degree of immunity may exist for certain circumstances, like how police officers may possess objects that are otherwise illegal to possess when necessary for evidence and undercover operations.
Neo Arcadia isn't that unusual for a couple of reasons. One, their own Reploids would not be considered Maverick by the government. Two, they ARE the government, and can write themselves off as exempt to their own rules. Three, by the Zero series, there is a greater understanding of Reploid souls, cyberspace, etc., which is all highly relevant to the topic of avoiding the resurrection of an empty manipulable shell of a Reploid.
As for Weil, he isn't exactly known for his integrity. He has a long history of favoring radical solutions through questionable means, manipulating both people and the law to get his way. I'm not in the least surprised that "Thou shalt not conduct DNA revival" failed to deter him.
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Again, this is all a matter of "when" not of "if", but in the Classic/X context, we see many robots with faces of comparable expression and elasticity to a human's, so...yeah, not sure where your point is on that one.
My point was why not just make them like Terminators? Not that their function would be to terminate, but they'd basically be made up of a robotic endoskeleton overlaid with organic tissue.
Even assuming literal use of the term "DNA", nucleic acid as a storage medium does not necessitate the presence of protein, cell structure, capillaries, etc. We merely associate those with it because it's the "biological" application. But once we've crossed the bridge of manipulating it for a new application, we are in no way obligated to direct it towards the construction of those same structures. That's about as logical as claiming that because you have an SD card in your digital camera, anyone who has an SD card must also be using it for photography.
That's a good point, but the X series still does a poor job of explaining the usage or why it makes sense, like you did just now. That's why I suggest if they're going to be so light on the details, at least try to use terminology that maintains a better distinction between Reploids and humans. Otherwise, if they want to make the point that Reploids are a fusion of biology and technology, and not merely technology mimicking humanity, then they've got some more 'splainin to do.
I feel the need to point out that the "soul" is NOT a biological term, but a philosophical one, and it is not clearly defined. Depending on who you ask, a "soul" may be considered by definition part of any self-aware entity. To say this term is not to apply to Reploids is to say that Reploids are not permitted their own sense of philosophy, which is to say they are incapable of thinking independently. We know this is not the case.
My point here was that "soul" is, like you said, another vague term used to describe the uniqueness of humans, not a biological term. However, in the context of both religion AND Mega Man X, "souls" are used to mean something more literal rather than figurative. Combining it with DNA just compounds the poor usage. So when Reploids are said to have souls, or "DNA Souls", it's another step towards them being treated nondistinct from humans without much explanation. Nevertheless, I'll admit it's a minor nitpick. My bigger point ties in better with my pet peeve of DNA data in Reploids.
Anyone who has played X8 or MHX ought to know that the answer is both. The only excuse to not pick that up is failure to think through a story that is presented in the context of an action game; similar to how everyone ignores Zero's capsule dialogue when criticizing his account of his return in X6. Many players, unfortunately, have a tendency to look no deeper than the surface. "If a virus makes Reploids go Maverick then it MUST be the only reason they go Maverick." Such a statement is justified only by naivety. The unknowns of the possible causes of Maverick behavior have been touched upon in MHX, X4, X8, and XCM. All of these titles make it clear that "Maverick" is in fact a label, well before it became as loosely used as it was in the Zero series.
But the games haven't really done much with that over the course of the series. The question's been suggested in games like X4, X5, X8, CM, and now in the latest remake that hasn't gone anywhere, but there's been no climax or struggle based on challenging the meaning of the term "Maverick". It's always been a foregone conclusion until X8, but even then it underlines the flaws of how the term "Maverick" has been used: "We have the power to go Maverick at will," is like saying "We have the power to go insane at will!" What the hell does that mean? That you have true free will? That would've been a big revelation had we been told that Reploids, even X and Zero, don't have "true" free will, and Mavericks like Sigma did. It's good that there were at least a few games that touched upon it over the course of the entire series, but there wasn't enough focus on it.
The same acid you're describing with a virus before computers were invented. Repurposing terms for new technology is a very real practice in the world.
But again, even assuming literal use, this is an acid that is the oldest known storage medium in existence, to which man-made analogues actually exist in the real world. I'm sorry, Treleus, but I can't see that as anything but nitpicking.
It's because you're focusing too much on the term and not on what it indicates, for me at least: that the story's just not a very good one. As far as dark sci-fi goes, I think it can do a lot better to compete with sci-fi stories like Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell, which directly observe these questions about sentience in humanity vs technology. The whole DNA thing was just a nitpick that got me started, and admittedly the use of the term isn't the problem. It's how poorly the term and it's usage have been explained in the context of the X series. Nevertheless, I'll admit I did start all of this with just nitpicking. That's true enough.
Besides, I've always seen the theme of how Reploids compare and contrast to humanity as being more a matter of mentality than anatomy.
But what interests me is how the anatomy gives birth to the mentality. You can't have one without the other.
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We supplied all relevant "cold hard facts" to the highly philosophical question of reviving from the dead quite some time ago. If you feel there is more to explore, by all means, offer some follow-up questions.
And that's my point...if you have nothing else to add, the why derail the thread more?
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Because intelligent discussion has a tendency to branch out after a certain amount of dialogue has passed. People who actually socialize in the real world (I hear stories) tend to take notice of that.
First of all, you and I are not Mods here, and if you truly feel the thread is derailed then the proper course of action is to request it be locked. But there's a BIG difference between being disruptive and following natural progression. It's called a train of thought. The current discussion is derived from your original question (revival outlawed>DNA revival outlawed>Reploid DNA>Human/Reploid correlations), and not only that, but philosophical questions by their very nature tend to invoke a broad level of discussion (and I think, "What is wrong with reviving the dead" certainly qualifies as a philosophical question). Rather than start multiple new threads in which we are in reality quoting and responding to this thread, it makes more sense to avoid cluttering the board and pursue logical discussion here, provided of course that such can be done without interfering with other ongoing discussions to your original point. Which is why all involved back then posted to that point to the best of their ability before elaborating on the finer related details. Again, if you or anyone else feels there is more to discuss, then by all means do so. I'd be happy to contribute to such discussion. But how can you complain about derailing a topic when you yourself have nothing to add or to ask?
Anyways, it's late, and I don't have time to read/respond to Treleus. I'll have to tackle that one later.
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Again, if you or anyone else feels there is more to discuss, then by all means do so. I'd be happy to contribute to such discussion.
I think I've got something--how robots/Reploids would regard sex, or more importantly, how they regard ignorant humans who think sex equals humanity.
On top of not knowing which humans will turn you into a pile of spare parts just for existing (see: Emerald Spears), there's a chance that your human significant other could dump you because you're physically incapable of putting out (aside from squicky workarounds that I won't get into here).
You were basically told that your sentience, free will/self-determination, compassion, and other human traits weren't good enough, because you lacked gentials. Possibly even to your face. Hell, it wouldn't have to be your significant other.
I wouldn't be surprised if the topic of sex was a massive berserk button for robots and X-era Reploids.
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I wonder what kind of couple Andrew and his wife were...I mean, he was willing to get rebuild into an old man for her.
First of all, you and I are not Mods here, and if you truly feel the thread is derailed then the proper course of action is to request it be locked. But there's a BIG difference between being disruptive and following natural progression. It's called a train of thought. The current discussion is derived from your original question (revival outlawed>DNA revival outlawed>Reploid DNA>Human/Reploid correlations), and not only that, but philosophical questions by their very nature tend to invoke a broad level of discussion (and I think, "What is wrong with reviving the dead" certainly qualifies as a philosophical question). Rather than start multiple new threads in which we are in reality quoting and responding to this thread, it makes more sense to avoid cluttering the board and pursue logical discussion here, provided of course that such can be done without interfering with other ongoing discussions to your original point. Which is why all involved back then posted to that point to the best of their ability before elaborating on the finer related details. Again, if you or anyone else feels there is more to discuss, then by all means do so. I'd be happy to contribute to such discussion. But how can you complain about derailing a topic when you yourself have nothing to add or to ask?
If half of the post were pointless bickering about terms then yes, I feel like this thread has served its purpose. Otherwise I don't mind the discussion. Also the fact that I don't write in this thread doesn't mean that I am not reading it.
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Possibly even to your face
Or lack thereof
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But the games haven't really done much with that over the course of the series. The question's been suggested in games like X4, X5, X8, CM, and now in the latest remake that hasn't gone anywhere, but there's been no climax or struggle based on challenging the meaning of the term "Maverick". It's always been a foregone conclusion until X8
First of all, criticizing because something never happened except when it did, is obviously invalid as selective reasoning. Secondly, that's bull anyway, as Command Mission most definitely challenged the term.
"Didn't Epsilon tell you? Only future generations can judge whether we are truly Maverick or not."
"Maverick? You seem more Maverick to me, with all your stubborn nonsense about friendship, and your unwillingness to evolve."
A condition is not necessarily defined by its cause. "Maverick" as was coined in X1 referred to mentality and behavior, the cause or causes of which were unknown. The need to quantify such an intangible concept is the result of viewing Reploids solely as technology rather than as psychological individuals. For an entity claiming to be able to "think, feel, and make their own decisions", that is a severe logic error. And the fanbase is every bit as guilty of this as any in-universe character is. While many games continued to touch on the unknown and intangible aspects of Maverick behavior (nearly every game from X4 onward), there were many both in the story and in our real world who simply chose to ignore it all, and X8 blew the whistle on both.
but even then it underlines the flaws of how the term "Maverick" has been used: "We have the power to go Maverick at will," is like saying "We have the power to go insane at will!" What the hell does that mean? That you have true free will? That would've been a big revelation had we been told that Reploids, even X and Zero, don't have "true" free will, and Mavericks like Sigma did. It's good that there were at least a few games that touched upon it over the course of the entire series, but there wasn't enough focus on it.
Lumine's ramblings aren't supposed to make THAT much sense; why do you think Zero dismisses him so easily? The most generous description of his speech is that he's bragging about doing the same thing Sigma and Vile did, and they're both first-generation Reploids.
There's a philosophical question of where you draw the line between "insanity" and "freedom from conformity". It should come as no surprise that the insane would draw that line a bit differently than the rest.
But what interests me is how the anatomy gives birth to the mentality. You can't have one without the other.
This falls along the same lines that Flame was getting at with Gonzo, I think.
Let me ask you something, Reploids may have wings, tails, horns, beaks, etc. Any of that may make them "less human" in appearance, but does it make them less human in mentality?
The thing about Reploid anatomy, which is a big problem when debating it, is that it's not standardized. In Command Mission we saw an otherwise human-shape Reploid that lacked legs. We saw others that showed skin at the thighs. Assuming the *a'hem* hardware design exists, a Reploid may or may not be built with it just as easily as they may or may not be built with hair.
I wonder what kind of couple Andrew and his wife were...I mean, he was willing to get rebuild into an old man for her.
Happy and dedicated, if nothing else. After all, difference in aging is a long-term issue that would only surface after they had already been together for many years. Love in the long term is a funny thing, in that time always provides it with new challenges. The insecurities that led to Andrew's remodeling are simply a fantasy twist on a midlife crisis, as I see it. Your mate grows old, you don't, your mate feels unattractive, loses confidence in their "worth" to you, and you do what you can to reinforce how valuable they are to you.
If half of the post were pointless bickering about terms then yes, I feel like this thread has served its purpose. Otherwise I don't mind the discussion. Also the fact that I don't write in this thread doesn't mean that I am not reading it.
Well, that's why I limited the number of points in Treleus's post that I would respond to. Defining terms is important, but yeah, there comes a point where you are simply stirring over personal interpretation, which is senseless, I agree.
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Old Andrew's tales are always such a sweet read. make me awww every time.
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First of all, criticizing because something never happened except when it did, is obviously invalid as selective reasoning. Secondly, that's bull anyway, as Command Mission most definitely challenged the term.
"Didn't Epsilon tell you? Only future generations can judge whether we are truly Maverick or not."
"Maverick? You seem more Maverick to me, with all your stubborn nonsense about friendship, and your unwillingness to evolve."
You've got a point, but there's not much of a resolution to that challenge. Same with X4 and X8. Another thing that leaves me wanting is that not only was it not a persistent theme, it comes and goes right before the very end of the game, between the last battle and the last scene.
A condition is not necessarily defined by its cause. "Maverick" as was coined in X1 referred to mentality and behavior, the cause or causes of which were unknown. The need to quantify such an intangible concept is the result of viewing Reploids solely as technology rather than as psychological individuals. For an entity claiming to be able to "think, feel, and make their own decisions", that is a severe logic error. And the fanbase is every bit as guilty of this as any in-universe character is. While many games continued to touch on the unknown and intangible aspects of Maverick behavior (nearly every game from X4 onward), there were many both in the story and in our real world who simply chose to ignore it all, and X8 blew the whistle on both.
But who blew that whistle? The mad man did. And you made the point later that it's easy to dismiss what the madman says, so what it is that X8 says about Mavericks in the end? That it doesn't mean as much as we were led to believe? That they're just insane? Basically the same thing that CM suggested. Also that the good guys win, so who gives a [parasitic bomb] anyways? Let's fighting love!
Lumine's ramblings aren't supposed to make THAT much sense; why do you think Zero dismisses him so easily? The most generous description of his speech is that he's bragging about doing the same thing Sigma and Vile did, and they're both first-generation Reploids.
He's effectively no different than Sigma. Before there was ever even the suggestion of a Maverick Virus, Sigma played the same role Lumine did. This is demonstrated in no uncertain terms in MHX when Sigma talks of evolution while posturing himself as the harbinger of it. He's still dismissed as insane, so Lumine really just the second coming of Sigma 8 games and a side-RPG into the franchise. Basically, back to square 1.
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This reminds me--did the X series, at any point in time, make a clear distinction between a "viral" and "free-will" Maverick, or are we always left to speculate? (I think Repliforce might count as free-will Mavericks)
'cuz if EVERY Maverick turned out to be viral...that'd be depressing as hell, writing-wise. (Stupid question might be stupid, I know...)
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We're left to speculate because the virus frequently defies attempts at analysis. There are means of scanning for it but they are imperfect, as made abundantly clear in X5. Awakened Zero does not give any viral readings. There are times when you definitely know that the virus is at work, but rarely do you definitely know that it isn't. Throughout the entire series the determination of Maverick status is a judgement on behavior, not of any clear measurement, which is most clearly evident in the Repliforce, Shield Sheldon, and the Rebellion Army.
You've got a point, but there's not much of a resolution to that challenge. Same with X4 and X8. Another thing that leaves me wanting is that not only was it not a persistent theme, it comes and goes right before the very end of the game, between the last battle and the last scene.
The lack of resolution is deliberate, as often times happens when writing about moral judgement and intangible issues. Command Mission outright states at the end that the powers that be are not willing to label Epsilon as definitively Maverick or not, rather, since he's dead anyway, they simply deferred the judgement.
But who blew that whistle? The mad man did. And you made the point later that it's easy to dismiss what the madman says, so what it is that X8 says about Mavericks in the end? That it doesn't mean as much as we were led to believe? That they're just insane? Basically the same thing that CM suggested. Also that the good guys win, so who gives a [parasitic bomb] anyways? Let's fighting love!
Lumine merely confirmed what was suspected throughout the game: That the new-gen behavior cannot possibly be the result of viral infection. The significance of such a statement, the judgement of whether such reasoning is sane or not, and whether or not it calls for his level of bragging, all of that is highly debatable. But the facts are the facts, and it's something that before X8 was frequently swept under the rug. Assuming there is a right and a wrong choice, by definition a free willed entity must be capable of making either one.
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We're left to speculate because the virus frequently defies attempts at analysis. There are means of scanning for it but they are imperfect, as made abundantly clear in X5. Awakened Zero does not give any viral readings. There are times when you definitely know that the virus is at work, but rarely do you definitely know that it isn't. Throughout the entire series the determination of Maverick status is a judgement on behavior, not of any clear measurement, which is most clearly evident in the Repliforce, Shield Sheldon, and the Rebellion Army.
By the same examples, it's also been shown to be a powerful propaganda tool. That's something I just wanted to see the games admit and resolve, even if they continue to use the term. It'd be enough for me if X took a step back and realized that all the Reploids he keeps calling Maverick aren't always "pure evil" or deserving of the label, which he sorta almost did at the end of X8, but then Zero just dismissed it and the game ended on that note.
The lack of resolution is deliberate, as often times happens when writing about moral judgement and intangible issues. Command Mission outright states at the end that the powers that be are not willing to label Epsilon as definitively Maverick or not, rather, since he's dead anyway, they simply deferred the judgement.
I don't remember that part. I'll have to play CM again.
Lumine merely confirmed what was suspected throughout the game: That the new-gen behavior cannot possibly be the result of viral infection. The significance of such a statement, the judgement of whether such reasoning is sane or not, and whether or not it calls for his level of bragging, all of that is highly debatable. But the facts are the facts, and it's something that before X8 was frequently swept under the rug. Assuming there is a right and a wrong choice, by definition a free willed entity must be capable of making either one.
But like I said, it's going back to square one. Rather than realizing the term "Maverick" didn't actually mean what they thought it meant, and thereby prompting them to explore or reevaluate it a bit, our heroes resolved to just basically keep thinking and doing the same thing about it. At least that's the suggestion; I liked Zero's last line about fighting against destiny, but that was more in response to Lumine's comment about them being unfit to survive because ... they're old? I dunno.
It's like at the end of X4 when X asked Zero to kill him if he ever becomes a Maverick. To me that never made sense. It's as if X didn't learn anything from the plight of Repliforce or being manipulated by Sigma once again. To him it just went back to "well, I sure hope I'm never on the wrong side of the law." It's one thing to be afraid, but it's another thing to be so monumentally dense.
I'm exhausted. I'll concede that I should replay the games and pay closer attention to what the narratives are trying to say, but I still think they're too much fluff and not enough substance, leaving the fans to either substitute it themselves or pick it out from the leanest of subtext. For me, if they're going to have a story, I want a little more than that. If not, I'd rather it just be all action and little story if any.
But mostly I just need to play some more videogames. I'm tired.
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We saw others that showed skin at the thighs.
I keep forgetting which reploid had this "necesstitty". Also, in terms of gender considering reploids, was Iris truly the "first" to appear in the games? pre-X4, most reploid females were given the A-OK for mass production, which makes me question who was X's "eve", if he was the "adam"?
But on the case of mavericks, I think it would be the same for human peers if one were to deem a fellow man "insane" if he went against human law?
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None, they just applied X's design concept to male AND female Reploids. They dont seem to have any other gender defining characteristics aside from looks, voice and mind anyway, so they just give them a female body and a female mind and there you go.
I don't remember that part. I'll have to play CM again.
Basically, due to his actions and Redips involvement, it was a tough case- remember, Epsilon made absolutely SURE that no Humans were harmed during his take over of Gigantis. He exiled them peacefully and without incident, as well as making sure civilian reploids were not harmed by his actions either, as noted when Scarface challenges X and Zero to battle in Central Tower. But, he still used a Supra Force Metal missile as a bargaining tool, threatening to launch it, with the potential of creating thousands of mavericks through it if he did so. But Redips manipulated events and only eliminated Epsilon out of his own self interest, so the case against Esilon being a Maverick was very difficult to decide.
Even X seems to aknowledge that Epsilon was not(may not have been?) Maverick when he addresses Redips.
"Epsilon Knew from the start that the use of Supra Force Metal involved the possibility of going Maverick- But at least he- was BETTER than you! At least he wasn't a Maverick from the start!"
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Come to think of it, Epsilon is General Francis X. Hummel:
(http://static.moviefanatic.com/images/gallery/francis-x-hummel.jpg)
Far out.
I dunno. I guess I'm tired of X yelling MAVERICK all the time. It describes only the semblance of a behavior and doesn't go any deeper, which also describes the character to me: purely reactive. The more it's said, the more it loses it's meaning.
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I always found that scene where X calls redips a Maverick to be hillarious in CM
X: "Redips! You... You... MAVERICK!!!"
Redips: *DRAMATIC TURN*
*Battle riff*
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By the same examples, it's also been shown to be a powerful propaganda tool. That's something I just wanted to see the games admit and resolve, even if they continue to use the term. It'd be enough for me if X took a step back and realized that all the Reploids he keeps calling Maverick aren't always "pure evil" or deserving of the label, which he sorta almost did at the end of X8, but then Zero just dismissed it and the game ended on that note.
I believe that game is called Mega Man Zero.
It's like at the end of X4 when X asked Zero to kill him if he ever becomes a Maverick. To me that never made sense. It's as if X didn't learn anything from the plight of Repliforce or being manipulated by Sigma once again. To him it just went back to "well, I sure hope I'm never on the wrong side of the law." It's one thing to be afraid, but it's another thing to be so monumentally dense.
Repliforce isn't the whole story of X4, though. There's also Double, and the fact that over the years they never did figure out what set Sigma off in the first place, either. X reminisces over all three before Zero chimes in.
It describes only the semblance of a behavior and doesn't go any deeper
A lot of psychological terms are the same way. The definitive causes are unknown and the diagnosis is a judgement call. While the government is all too happy to refer to enemies of the state as "Maverick", X and Zero generally do not. The two of them certainly never referred to Repliforce that way, only that their superiors would "consider/think/treat" them as such. And all the way up to the General they try to reason with their opponents. Those who X and Zero directly call Maverick are generally those they dismiss as crazy, whether they are on the right side of the law or not (see Redips and Dr. Weil).
Epsilon is an odd case. X refers to him as Maverick at the start but backtracks on that opinion in the later chapters, particularly during his first duel with Scarface, and when facing Redips. The important distinction to make is that X does NOT question whether or not Redips needs to be stopped at any point during that time; never does he describe Epsilon's actions as anything but dangerous. So we can clearly see that being Maverick is not a simple matter of being in his, or the law's, crosshairs.
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I believe that game is called Mega Man Zero.
Fair point, but too little too late. Suffice it to say that MMZ isn't what I'm asking for. It's an X game I want, and preferably not on the GBA.
Repliforce isn't the whole story of X4, though. There's also Double, and the fact that over the years they never did figure out what set Sigma off in the first place, either. X reminisces over all three before Zero chimes in.
Good points. I guess for X, the unanswered questions leads him to suspect himself as well as those around him. I still think it's a sappy and needless scene, though.
A lot of psychological terms are the same way. The definitive causes are unknown and the diagnosis is a judgement call. While the government is all too happy to refer to enemies of the state as "Maverick", X and Zero generally do not. The two of them certainly never referred to Repliforce that way, only that their superiors would "consider/think/treat" them as such. And all the way up to the General they try to reason with their opponents. Those who X and Zero directly call Maverick are generally those they dismiss as crazy, whether they are on the right side of the law or not (see Redips and Dr. Weil).
Epsilon is an odd case. X refers to him as Maverick at the start but backtracks on that opinion in the later chapters, particularly during his first duel with Scarface, and when facing Redips. The important distinction to make is that X does NOT question whether or not Redips needs to be stopped at any point during that time; never does he describe Epsilon's actions as anything but dangerous. So we can clearly see that being Maverick is not a simple matter of being in his, or the law's, crosshairs.
My problem with most of this that there is no real judgment calling on either of their parts. It always ends the same way: with a fight and the suspected Maverick dying. It's the traditional trapping of the Mega Man action game. But with the X series, I think the games' could've handled both the gameplay and this dubious case of who-or-what-is-a-Maverick more intelligently by giving players some more choices and more consequences.
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My problem with most of this that there is no real judgment calling on either of their parts. It always ends the same way: with a fight and the suspected Maverick dying. It's the traditional trapping of the Mega Man action game. But with the X series, I think the games' could've handled both the gameplay and this dubious case of who-or-what-is-a-Maverick more intelligently by giving players some more choices and more consequences.
It wasn't until recently that Capcom gave Westerners manuals or guides outside of Japan on what they actually do with the Mavericks. I know we are not expecting a Bioware type game where your actions effect your morality meter but I agree that gameplay did need to accomodate this. In almost every X game, it always this:
Eight Mavericks, Irregulars or whatever are attacking and X and Zero must stop them
(X and Zero beat the level and get to the boss, busts down the door)
X/Zero: What is going on here?
Boss: I am evil and just want to do evil things, lol!!!
X: Is there any way we can about this?
Zero: Why aren't we fighting yet?
Boss: I don't want to talk, I want to destroy things and I want to beat people up for no good reason!
Zero: Have it your way!
X: We could avoided this!
(X and Zero beat boss)
Alia: You got the bosses weapon. It turns this guy wasn't evil at all but Sigma or some other Reploid manipulated this guy into commited these atrocities, he was actually nice guy until he went crazy some contrived reason. A pity though...oh well, on the next Maverick.
*rinse and repeat*
It would nice to put in some sort of morality where there was no clear hero or villain and even X admits that he may be the bad guy this time. Capcom will not allow this to happen to their blue bomber but it would be interesting what would happen if the line between Irregulars/Mavericks blurred.
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My problem with most of this that there is no real judgment calling on either of their parts. It always ends the same way: with a fight and the suspected Maverick dying. It's the traditional trapping of the Mega Man action game. But with the X series, I think the games' could've handled both the gameplay and this dubious case of who-or-what-is-a-Maverick more intelligently by giving players some more choices and more consequences.
I don't consider linearity to necessarily be a bad thing. The author has the right to define their character independent of the player, and quite frankly, most gamers wouldn't give a damn anyway. During the rare instances where the player DOES have a choice in a Mega Man game, they tend to simply take the path of least resistance and accept it as burned in stone (I am probably the only guy on the face of the Earth who appreciates the fact that I can get by the battle with Iris without directly attacking her in X4).
A "false Maverick" has a good chance of dying simply because the series treats its NPCs in general as disposable (whether dying or dropping off the Earth; Alia, Signas, and Light are about the only exceptions). But it's not always the result of battle. See Doppler (X3) and Ferham (XCM). They're removed for the sake of plot convenience; they did not die as a result of battle with X and Zero.
The open-ended "Mass Effect" route would be a cool mechanic to play with, I'll give you that EASILY. I just see it as "different" and "interesting", not objectively "better". There are a lot of games out there that aren't really supposed to be deep in terms of their narrative, and a lot of gamers who wouldn't appreciate it even if they were.
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I am saddened at your lack of mention of GBD.
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Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge the MMX games for being linear action-fests. That's what I love them for. It's just that no X game has ever made feel as invested in my quest or the events going on as X1. I can enjoy a strictly linear new X game as long as it weaves a plot with that kind of finesse. A game that makes me care about what I'm doing or what my goal is. Most of the time I just don't care. The glowing exceptions to these rules are X1 and X4 (as Zero) for me. The rest of the games I just wanna fight, fight, fight, and I don't have to tell you how much X's "BUT I DUN WANNA FAIGT" attitude clashes with that.
That's kinda why I suggested the "Mass Effect" style of giving player's choices that mean something or have some emotional/consequential weight to them. Poisonally I prefer the example of Deus Ex, but then I haven't played Mass Effect yet. Not sure how well my Intel Core i5 & Nvidia GeFORCE 310M can handle it, but its downloaded and ready, so I might as well give it a shot today.
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I am saddened at your lack of mention of GBD.
Forgive me, I was thinking of supporting characters. GBD doesn't do any supporting; he exists solely to be cannon fodder.
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Forgive me, I was thinking of supporting characters. GBD doesn't do any supporting; he exists solely to be cannon fodder.
I was mostly teasing you anyways, honestly. :P
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Yea, but X can't ever even dream of entering the same plane as GBD. That's gotta count for something.