Rockman Perfect Memories

Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: Waifu on May 21, 2012, 08:49:08 PM

Title: X's characterization
Post by: Waifu on May 21, 2012, 08:49:08 PM
X's character has changed over the years from a gung ho type hero to a Gundam esque hero. In the first few games, X wasn't necessarily an idealist but he nevertheless wanted to stop Sigma from destroying the world and avenge hs fallen comrade Zero. Mega Man X wasn't really a peace loving robot hero in the first few games but he was somewhat pragmatic and he was a capable commander in X2. From X4 onwards, X started to become something of a pacifist who didn't like fighting but had to do in order to protect innocent lives. Unfortunately, that was also when the developers started to focus most of the character development on Zero leaving X in the dust.  X was at his lowest point during X7 where he started to become somewhat disillusioned and started to complain about the previous wars. In Command Mission, X somewhat more or less gung ho and behaved like an action hero in the game. X's character developed throughout the series but which characterization do you prefer? X, the action hero who is willing to get the job done or the pacifistic warrior who doesn't like fighting?
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Soultrigger on May 22, 2012, 12:38:12 AM
Honestly, I think X7 is probably the only real characterization of X that I extremely hate. Given the time placement in the series and his past developments, it just didn't make any sense, and was just a poor excuse to make him an unlockable/force Axl on players. X4 had that whole bad voice acting, but that was simply the result of reusing the MM8 voice actor.

Any other lack of development for X was either a result of:
-giving focus on Zero or Axl
-having little plot to begin with
-giving all the obvious moments to X

There is another thing that extremely annoys me, and is that there are WAY too many instances where bosses make X out to be a stupid, inexperienced pushover. The guy's design is the source of all freaking Reploids, which makes him older than everyone except possibly Zero. AND, he's a hero who has stopped multiple wars. And yet the writers constantly forget this when writing terrible boss dialogue.

I guess the Zero series did him justice when he finally became wiser. He was very cryptic, but that was for pacing of the plot.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Hypershell on May 22, 2012, 02:15:12 AM
In the game epilogues, X has pretty much always questioned whether or not violence was the answer, ever since X1, but throughout the main body of the SNES games he has too little dialogue for it to show (X3's manual also references this, IIRC).  X4 was the first time this properly showed in game dialogue, and coincidentally a character of his type takes fighting former allies hard (ie, Dragoon and Double), plus the whole voice acting thing, made it all appear a little more heavy than it was probably meant to.

It's hard to justify X7 as anything but giving people a reason they have to play as Axl.  In gameplay I don't mind so much because X is powerful enough to justify his late entry, but in storyline it makes very little sense.  X is halfway ready to throw Axl to the sharks at the beginning of the game, and he is not supposed to be THAT naive.

Command Mission represents what X's typical character should probably be: He believes in what he is doing but some part of him can't help but wonder why the enemy would instigate the level of violence that they have.  A person's motivation seems to be where X focuses his attention when it comes to judging character.  While it's not particularly difficult to win his trust, he doesn't easily forgive betrayal, and he recognizes a simple lust for power when he sees it.

X6 is perhaps X at his strongest.  One of the few times the battle was personal for him, X shows almost no sign of hesitation, no matter what the enemy's reasons or how great their power.  Rarely do we see him that determined, yet he still holds onto his compassion in the end.

In addition to his big heart, I think it's also because X is so old that his enemies tend to underestimate him, but around Xtreme2's timeframe the more competent villains began to realize what a mistake that was.  Since then, a villain's take on X tends to be a good indicator of how simple-minded the villain is.  If they're just full of themselves, they won't take the little softie too seriously, but an intelligent opponent knows that X is a force to be reckoned with, and a constantly growing one, at that.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Sigma Zero X on May 22, 2012, 06:15:41 AM
I like both characterizations, but I like X as a pacifist who does not like fighting.  Although X7 did take it a bit far, I did like the way X7 showed X's reluctance in fighting.  Once something or someone is destroyed, there is really no turning back and one has to move on.  I can relate to X on that level.  In terms of how one approaches aversion to violence, X is not Iori Yagami for crying out loud.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Waifu on May 22, 2012, 10:54:15 PM
I like both characterizations, but I like X as a pacifist who does not like fighting.  Although X7 did take it a bit far, I did like the way X7 showed X's reluctance in fighting.  Once something or someone is destroyed, there is really no turning back and one has to move on.  I can relate to X on that level.  In terms of how one approaches aversion to violence, X is not Iori Yagami for crying out loud.

I know X isn't Iori but I can understand where you are coming from. X7 was really the lowest point for X, why did derail his character to that?

In the game epilogues, X has pretty much always questioned whether or not violence was the answer, ever since X1, but throughout the main body of the SNES games he has too little dialogue for it to show (X3's manual also references this, IIRC).  X4 was the first time this properly showed in game dialogue, and coincidentally a character of his type takes fighting former allies hard (ie, Dragoon and Double), plus the whole voice acting thing, made it all appear a little more heavy than it was probably meant to.

It's hard to justify X7 as anything but giving people a reason they have to play as Axl.  In gameplay I don't mind so much because X is powerful enough to justify his late entry, but in storyline it makes very little sense.  X is halfway ready to throw Axl to the sharks at the beginning of the game, and he is not supposed to be THAT naive.

Command Mission represents what X's typical character should probably be: He believes in what he is doing but some part of him can't help but wonder why the enemy would instigate the level of violence that they have.  A person's motivation seems to be where X focuses his attention when it comes to judging character.  While it's not particularly difficult to win his trust, he doesn't easily forgive betrayal, and he recognizes a simple lust for power when he sees it.

X6 is perhaps X at his strongest.  One of the few times the battle was personal for him, X shows almost no sign of hesitation, no matter what the enemy's reasons or how great their power.  Rarely do we see him that determined, yet he still holds onto his compassion in the end.

In addition to his big heart, I think it's also because X is so old that his enemies tend to underestimate him, but around Xtreme2's timeframe the more competent villains began to realize what a mistake that was.  Since then, a villain's take on X tends to be a good indicator of how simple-minded the villain is.  If they're just full of themselves, they won't take the little softie too seriously, but an intelligent opponent knows that X is a force to be reckoned with, and a constantly growing one, at that.

I really like this post but I really hate how X got derailed in X7, he did nothing but angst and it made him look terribly bad. Command Mission was where X was at his most mature, he was still reluctant warrior who questioned wheer or not violence was the answer but he wasn't angsty teenager that he was in X7. That should had been the logical progression of his character after X6 even if he didn't agree with Axl's "methods", he was being somewhat unreasonable in X7.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on May 24, 2012, 08:48:04 AM
Command Mission represents what X's typical character should probably be: He believes in what he is doing but some part of him can't help but wonder why the enemy would instigate the level of violence that they have.  A person's motivation seems to be where X focuses his attention when it comes to judging character.  While it's not particularly difficult to win his trust, he doesn't easily forgive betrayal, and he recognizes a simple lust for power when he sees it.

Good observation. It's really easy for me to forget personality details like that because, to me, it comes across as corny in performance--like I can't take the writing or the actor seriously--and its an overdone occurrence. Let's make a list of all the people that have betrayed X, either directly or by association with the Maverick Hunters:

1) Sigma
2) Every Maverick from X1
3) Vile
4) Mac
5) Double
6) Dragoon
7) Shadow
8) Spider

It's quite a recurring gag. Not an unbelievable reality, but I kinda stopped caring about that plot device after seeing it used like it was a disposable. Maybe if these strings of betrayals actually built up to something, like X developing into a xenophobe or coming to distrust Zero, then that's something worth exploring. Otherwise it's not a terribly remarkable or distinct character trait, and it's one easily shared by Zero. Hell, he's the one who starts sounding really jaded about trusting people near the end of Command Mission. It really is easy for X to trust people.

As for that bit about recognizing power lust, it's another good observation about his character, but his motive for fighting Mavericks seems more along the lines of right vs wrong, good vs evil rather than a more pragmatic socio-psychological understanding of the opposition. "Mavericks are pure evil!", "You're insane, Sigma!", that sort of thing. He's not wrong, but when someone questions these basic assertions, X balks. He hasn't really thought that much farther than being a good guy fighting the bad guys, it seems.

X6 is perhaps X at his strongest.  One of the few times the battle was personal for him, X shows almost no sign of hesitation, no matter what the enemy's reasons or how great their power.  Rarely do we see him that determined, yet he still holds onto his compassion in the end.

It's the kind of basic determination to duty that we see in the less verbose of the X games, where X is very certain of his efforts and yet still recognizes (or feels) the value of mercy. It's when his duty and his desire for mercy come at odds with each other that we see X's development come to a real standstill: in X7 he abandons his old confidence in his duty and puts a lot of weight into what he wants: to not kill. This was handled poorly and abruptly in X7, but then it never happened earlier on in his career, so we've never seen him weigh the value of what he wants versus what he should do until that game. In the epilogue scrolls, it's only ever been asked how long he will keep fighting, not whether or not he should stop. The reason X decides to join the fray again, at least, made sense in X7's context: looking at Zero and Axl saving Reploids in the field helps him realize his own usefulness as a Maverick Hunter. Considering the entire context of the X series, though, this should've been fairly obvious to him.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Zan on May 24, 2012, 01:16:41 PM
Quote
Maybe if these strings of betrayals actually built up to something, like X developing into a xenophobe or coming to distrust Zero,

They did that for Zero.

Quote
here is another thing that extremely annoys me, and is that there are WAY too many instances where bosses make X out to be a stupid, inexperienced pushover. The guy's design is the source of all freaking Reploids, which makes him older than everyone except possibly Zero. AND, he's a hero who has stopped multiple wars. And yet the writers constantly forget this when writing terrible boss dialogue.

That's only in the first game. All later games treat him as someone not to be underestimated.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Hiryu on May 24, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
X (and Zero) also has a fear of uncertainty that has been expressed several times. After fighting Mavericks for so long, they ask each other if they too will go maverick one day. It would seem that they don't know how Reploids become Mavericks.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on May 24, 2012, 09:15:22 PM
They did that for Zero.

You mean in X5, where X and Zero fight each other, or the Zero series where (Copy) X becomes a tyrant distant from the people he's supposed to rule and protect without bias?
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Waifu on May 25, 2012, 05:29:14 AM
X (and Zero) also has a fear of uncertainty that has been expressed several times. After fighting Mavericks for so long, they ask each other if they too will go maverick one day. It would seem that they don't know how Reploids become Mavericks.

You mean in X5, where X and Zero fight each other, or the Zero series where (Copy) X becomes a tyrant distant from the people he's supposed to rule and protect without bias?

X and Zero are always dealing with the fear that they themselves would become Mavericks. They fear that they are going to become the very Mavericks that they fight agianst. They did come dangerously close but they really stayed in the dark side for long. Unfortunatley, X's dedication to justice is what is leading him to become even worse than any of thgem although it was the Copy X who took things too far.

Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on May 25, 2012, 08:06:21 AM
No no. My question was more about if X becomes a xenophobe and ends up distrusting Zero, since almost everyone else he's known has betrayed him. Then Zan said "They did that for Zero" and I didn't get it at first, but now I realize he means that Zero becomes the xenophobe who doesn't trust anybody. Except X, but even that trust gets strained now and then.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Zan on May 25, 2012, 01:09:33 PM
You mean in X5, where X and Zero fight each other, or the Zero series where (Copy) X becomes a tyrant distant from the people he's supposed to rule and protect without bias?

No, I mean in Command Mission where Zero's trust in others is severely compromised by Shadow.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Waifu on May 27, 2012, 05:58:50 PM
No, I mean in Command Mission where Zero's trust in others is severely compromised by Shadow.

Zero did seem apprehensive towards Massimo, Spider, Marino and Cinnamon. He didn't really trust them for the same reason is because they might go Maverick.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Flame on May 29, 2012, 08:57:28 AM
Spider sort of proved him right too, in a way...
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Waifu on May 29, 2012, 10:25:13 PM
To be fair, spider didn't really show his true colors until the end of the game. Spider is the mole.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on May 30, 2012, 02:44:58 AM
Speaking of Spider, didn't his reveal to be Repids feel like it made no sense? Maybe it's me, but it seems like the writers for the X games have this massive hard-on for traitors and whatnot. Problem is it never builds up to anything. It's always a one-off that just happens for the hell of it, and is then quickly forgotten.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Flame on May 30, 2012, 04:46:32 AM
How does it never build up to anything?

Spider turned out to be their commanding officer, a Colonel in the Maverick Hunters who they were answering to directly, and who turned out to be a New Generation Maverick who hung out with them in order to keep tabs on them, and who in the end only USED them in order to obtain two highly powerful and highly dangerous mineral fragments which literally made him invincible, in order to rule the Earth as a God.

That's not building up to nothing.

The mole, the traitor, your "ally" turned out to be the big bad, the final boss, the puppet master.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Sigma Zero X on May 30, 2012, 06:49:05 AM
Speaking of Spider, didn't his reveal to be Repids feel like it made no sense? Maybe it's me, but it seems like the writers for the X games have this massive hard-on for traitors and whatnot. Problem is it never builds up to anything. It's always a one-off that just happens for the hell of it, and is then quickly forgotten.

As far as Spider goes, to add on what Flame said, consider the following:

1.  Every time Spider said "I did not do that for you", he meant every word of it.

2.  Spider started off bad, then good, and acted strange every now and then.

3.  Wild Jango, Silver Horn, Mad Nautilus, Mach Jentra, and Incentas were bosses who Spider fought with the Hunters.  Ironically, they seemed to be revived and ended up fighting for Spider/Redips near the end.  Each of the respective bosses had their respective hunters acknowledging their revival and existence through the pre-fight dialouges.  For those who don't know what I am talking about, here is the breakdown of which hunter had dialogue acknowledging the revived boss:

X - Wild Jango

Massimo - Silver Horn

Marino and Cinnamon - Mad Nautilus

Axl - Mach Jentra (especially this one considering what Axl suppossedly said about Jango)

Zero - Incentas
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Soultrigger on May 30, 2012, 09:56:35 AM
That's only in the first game. All later games treat him as someone not to be underestimated.

Looking back, I guess the few examples I thought of were actually bosses intended to look simple-minded/foolish like what Hypershell said. MHX is the only game that exemplifies my statement, and it rightfully does so, being the first entry.

You mean in X5, where X and Zero fight each other, or the Zero series where (Copy) X becomes a tyrant distant from the people he's supposed to rule and protect without bias?

Ugh, X vs Zero...another example of [acid burst] poor writing. All that buildup from X2 to X4...poof! D:
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on May 30, 2012, 03:32:37 PM
I meant X and Zero seem quick to forget about these sort of betrayals across several games, which reflects how much the writers put into that plot device, or the story in general. They never seem to be wary of people within their own ranks, and so whenever the next Vile/Mac/Double/Shadow shows up, they act like they totally didn't expect that. With Command Mission, I just didn't get the sudden reveal. Maybe I need to play it again, but it just didn't come off right to me. I think it might've been the pacing. Or maybe not enough foreshadowing. Or maybe it was just a complete waste of Spider's character and development up to that point.

I guess I'm just missing some key slivers of foreshadowing that should've tipped me off about Spider, but his reveal didn't seem like it should've happened. It would've made more sense to me if Spider was Repids' agent rather than Repids himself. At least then Spider has the chance to rebel or redeem himself.

That aside, what was the point of Spider/Repids' character? To prove Zero right? In that case, that would lead either Zero or X to become such a xenophobe that they, I dunno, quit being a Maverick Hunter and go solo or into hiding.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Mirby on May 30, 2012, 07:14:58 PM
The point of Spider was so he could use X and Zero to gain what he wanted. In the end, they were only his tools.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Flame on May 31, 2012, 03:55:32 AM
The point of Spider was to be a plot twist, and to make the final boss.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on May 31, 2012, 05:25:37 AM
I guess I shouldn't be expecting much more depth from an X game. :/
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Hypershell on May 31, 2012, 11:55:53 PM
I don't think most 2D sidescrolling gamers would be observant enough to catch more depth than that anyway...
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Treleus on June 01, 2012, 03:57:44 AM
Yeah, but the thing is, I just don't see how that kind of plot twist is supposed to be deep or mean anything. It's just another betrayal resolved the same way: the good guys kill him and that's it. One of them momentarily reflects on it, but then nothing's said of it at the end. You have Ferham make an unnecessary sacrifice, watch X yell his rage into space, and then they all get back safe and sound. The subtext seems pretty simple--you can't trust anyone anymore--but there's never a sound conclusion or resolution to that.

My question wasn't really "what was the point of Spider's betrayal" but rather "what was the point of Spider being Repids"? I'll admit it's pretty clever, factoring in the New Generation reploids from X8 into the plot, but it felt like there wasn't enough build up to it, it happened way too late into the game, and it just didn't feel right. I got the impression that Spider was being developed into his own character for the grand duration of the game, getting the players invested into the character, only to be wasted with that whiplash of a plot twist. It feels like a misplaced plot twist relative to the game itself.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Sigma Zero X on June 02, 2012, 07:48:24 AM
My question wasn't really "what was the point of Spider's betrayal" but rather "what was the point of Spider being Repids"? I'll admit it's pretty clever, factoring in the New Generation reploids from X8 into the plot, but it felt like there wasn't enough build up to it, it happened way too late into the game, and it just didn't feel right. I got the impression that Spider was being developed into his own character for the grand duration of the game, getting the players invested into the character, only to be wasted with that whiplash of a plot twist. It feels like a misplaced plot twist relative to the game itself.

I think one reason that Redips was using his Spider persona aside from getting the Supra Force Metal is to gain more allies for his cause. 

Two ways he did so was this:

1.  Using public TV to gain supporters by falsely accusing X and his allies of joining the Rebellion, even with the death of Epsilon and the end of the Rebellion already known among Giga City.

2.  Spider's battles against the main chapter 2-6 bosses.  As a result, Wild Jango, Silver Horn, Mad Nautilus, Mach Jentra, and Incentas were revived and seemed to be on the side of Redips/Spider, despite suffering some behavioral problems. 
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Flame on June 04, 2012, 10:27:39 AM
They werent "revived", they were copied. the rematches in Eastern MH HQ are New Generation Reploids copying them. Though your idea still stands. since he defeated them, he was able to snag DNA samples. I mean, they apparently did something with em, considering latecomer Axl still gets DNA for Jango, Silverhorn, and Psyche and such. (and this is considering the fact that X doesnt obtain Special weapons this game)

another purpose is really just that in that way, he could gain X's trust and join his group to keep tabs on him. he was spying on them in first person. Would be mighty odd of the Maverick Hunter Colonel to suddenly appear in Giga City to join X and crew. This way he can play off some small backstory and pretend to be a new addition to the group.

Quote
I'll admit it's pretty clever, factoring in the New Generation reploids from X8 into the plot, but it felt like there wasn't enough build up to it, it happened way too late into the game, and it just didn't feel right.

Keep in mind Command Mission came out before X8. X8 was still in production when it came out, as evidenced by the unlockable X8 demo. So they probably didnt have all of the X8 story fully mapped out yet. so CM is the first usage of New Generation Reploids.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Sigma Zero X on June 05, 2012, 07:09:51 AM
They werent "revived", they were copied. the rematches in Eastern MH HQ are New Generation Reploids copying them. Though your idea still stands. since he defeated them, he was able to snag DNA samples. I mean, they apparently did something with em, considering latecomer Axl still gets DNA for Jango, Silverhorn, and Psyche and such. (and this is considering the fact that X doesnt obtain Special weapons this game)

another purpose is really just that in that way, he could gain X's trust and join his group to keep tabs on him. he was spying on them in first person. Would be mighty odd of the Maverick Hunter Colonel to suddenly appear in Giga City to join X and crew. This way he can play off some small backstory and pretend to be a new addition to the group.

Keep in mind Command Mission came out before X8. X8 was still in production when it came out, as evidenced by the unlockable X8 demo. So they probably didnt have all of the X8 story fully mapped out yet. so CM is the first usage of New Generation Reploids.

I see.  But there are several parts that supported X's conjecture of Wild Jango being Wild Jango instead of another Shang Tsung-like reploid.

1.  The way that of the rest of X's Hunter comrades addressed their respective bosses at Far East HQ during chapter 10:

Massimo to Silver Horn:

"You Rat, Silver Horn!!  Even you're here?!"

"I'm not weak like before!  Now I ... am Steel Massimo!!  Prepare yourself, Silver Horn!!"

Marino and Cinnamon to Mad Nautilus:

Marino -

"Well, well!  Who'd think that we'd meet you again?"

"Dr. Psyche!  We're sending you back to where you belong!"

Cinnamon -

"And I'm not just a helpless little girl anymore!"

Axl to Mach Jentra:

"Him again?  He really doesn't give up, does he?" 

"You sure you don't need the help of your Mechanoloid hordes?  Here goes nothing!"

Zero to Incentas:

"You!  Hmph!  Very well..."

"You owe us more than you could know!  And payment is due, right here and now!  Face your fate!"

These quotes from the show that the Hunters acknowledge that the bosses from chapter 10 are indeed the real things and no one else becoming them, especially Axl's pre-battle quotes to Jentra.  X already acknowledged Wild Jango's appearance as the real thing earlier in chapter 10 after Jango was destroyed again.

2.  Mach Jentra was able to summon Preons in chapter 10, despite the fact that Epsilon and the Rebellion were destroyed in chapter 9.  The Preons were Preon Shielder, Preon Soldier, and Preon Tank, just like in chapter 5.  Who else can summon Preons easily like Jentra and Duboar?

3.  When the bosses are destroyed, they do not change form like the copied bosses at Gateway did in Mega Man X8.  The bosses die as they way they are shown. 
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Flame on June 05, 2012, 08:11:10 AM
Do note that after you beat Jango the note that it was a reploid copying him.

X: It's Jango! It's gotta be him!

Axl:someone used a Chameleon ability like mine, and copied Jango's abilities

And they dont say anything when you meet them either, just growl.

the rest of the refights therefore, are assumed to be more newgens. And with the head of Eastern Maverick Hunter HQ an awakened newgen, it's really not surprising.

But even as new gen copies, they still represent that reploid, and it works as character development, with each character noting how they have grown in one way or another since them. Even if they arent the originals, they still throw that in their faces because the battles are personal.

also, jentra shouldnt be able to summon preons at all because of duboar's destruction. That was due to gameplay demanding it.

also, again, remember it was before X8. It also uses a transformation effect that looks more like a teleportation. Some of the X8 details were not ironed out yet. Most notably the name of the ability. Referred to as just a Copy Ability in X8, coming from a Copy Chip, in CM it's just referred to as a Chameleon Ability, and there isnt any specific name for those kinds of reploids.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Hypershell on June 06, 2012, 01:40:48 AM
there isnt any specific name for those kinds of reploids.
Not only that but there is reference to non-New Gen Reploids seeking the ability to upgrade themselves, such as Marino and Spider.  The copy/chameleon ability in XCM is less a matter of identity than it is in X8, where solid lines were drawn between "new generation" and "old model" Reploids.

I suppose it stands to reason that as the technology advanced, its restrictions may have been eased up, broadening its potential application.  This could possibly apply to Axl's ability being stronger in Command Mission than it is in X7/X8.
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Flame on June 06, 2012, 06:04:28 AM
I would wonder though, are newgen bodies special themselves or is it just the copy chip?
Title: Re: X's characterization
Post by: Waifu on June 06, 2012, 08:54:06 PM
I believe its the next gen reploids but its the copy chips that just in effect.