RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Original => Topic started by: Waifu on August 12, 2011, 06:53:16 PM
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I am currently playing the Mega Man 9 and 10 respectively but Inti removed the Charge Shot adn teh slide despite it being a series staple since Mega Man 3. Why did they do this?
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By staple, if you mean the ability to charge a weapon, it started in Mega Man 2 with the Atomic Fire.
The Mega Buster didn't get a charge up ability until Mega Man 4. And the slide showed up first in Mega Man 3.
Inti Creates made those two newer games to fit in with the controls and mechanics of Mega Man 2, since that is to them (and Inafking) their favorite Mega Man game, and to them, it was the most loved game in the series as well. Proto Man did get the slide and charge abilities tho, but had to take twice the damage against enemies (plot related).
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ProtoMan takes double knockback as well, making it easier for him to get shot off a cliff.
I personally have gotten very sick of Classic re-imaginings that don't let you slide. Counting Universe, which I got to play at Comic-Con, it's been going on for four games straight now. Enough.
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what? you tell me they ruined 9 & 10?
now inticreates really [acid burst] me off.... O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:<
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I would HOPE that part of the reasoning behind removing Mega of his slide is to help further differentiate him from Proto, Bass, and any other playable characters. Granted, I'd rather they give him the slide back, too. Or if not, at least let him duck.
(Not that Proto doesn't play differently than Mega-slidey already)
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I dont see why I would care if they played the same at all. The novelty is in the character you are playing as, not the way they play. That said, if Rock kept his [parasitic bomb], it would be easy to simply make protoman play like in powered up. Shooting charged shots all over the place. And make him dash like he should. maybe make his shield work like it does in 7 too. (which I always figured made more sense) it sort of bothers me a slight bit that they used 4's mechanics for Protoman's charge shot. Not to mention the 4 charge shot itself.
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9 was a major let down, in my opinion. Let's get that out there. Opinion. Got it? Okay.
That said, it completely infuriated me. It ignores the evolution of Mega Man to pander to a vocal minority. If I wanna play Mega Man 2, I'll play Mega Man 2, not a bad knock off. Stage design was also shoddy and it felt more often than not that the challenge came not from actual difficulty, but how many things they could throw at you at once. And spikes. Spikes [tornado fang]ing everywhere, to a ridiculous degree.
I've enjoyed nearly every Mega Man game I've played and I've never played them in order. My first was X4. My first classic was Rockman & Forte. But 9 was just.. Bad.
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I definitely prefer 10 over 9. It feels just more polished and despite still pandering to 2, it is more of it's own thing, and feels fresher for it.
Still has no charge or slide though.
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Like I always say, Rock just decided to say "[tornado fang] it! I'm already like 14-0 vs. Wily. THIS time I'll give him a sporting chance!"
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MM4 had the best version of the charge shot.
Protoman have that version, but he still can't charge it while sliding, just like in MM5.
Why Capcom think this is good is beyond me. It's the same thing if in Megaman X, you couldn't charge while X is dashing. Just imagine. This is how I feel about MM5 and Protoman's charge mechanic.
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9 was a major let down, in my opinion. Let's get that out there. Opinion. Got it? Okay.
That said, it completely infuriated me. It ignores the evolution of Mega Man to pander to a vocal minority. If I wanna play Mega Man 2, I'll play Mega Man 2, not a bad knock off. Stage design was also shoddy and it felt more often than not that the challenge came not from actual difficulty, but how many things they could throw at you at once. And spikes. Spikes [tornado fang]ing everywhere, to a ridiculous degree.
Overall agreed. 9 spends way too much time (and too many jingles) pretending it's 2, has entirely too many blindsided deaths (those helicopter claws do not belong anywhere near spikes), and those stupid potted plant missiles that laugh at your inability to gain any additional speed over your basic walk. Plus the game is over-dependent on Auto's shop, as there are virtually no pickup items.
I have to say, after all of that, 10 surprised me. I was expecting more of the same, but they clearly took the level design (and the sound) up a notch. And even though Rock still can't slide (boo), the MMK weapons give him something unique to the others. 10 isn't perfect, but it's an infinitely better game than 9.
I dont see why I would care if they played the same at all. The novelty is in the character you are playing as, not the way they play.
This, this, this, and this. Ruling out the cancellation of Legends 3 for a moment, quite possibly the next most infuriating thing that I can hear from a game developer is "we know players wanted such-and-such a character, but we didn't include them because we couldn't make them different enough". To someone who killed Mario off when he couldn't find a second person to play SMB3/SMW, that is the entirely wrong thing to say.
I'm also inclined to agree with giving ProtoMan the whole PU charged shot (but no boss-flinching, that's overkill)/MM7 shield approach. It would make him strong enough to justify his lack of defense. Another shield idea might be to not have it activate automatically at all. He could guard when you press down on the D-Pad. Could even give him a shield-dash instead of a slide, like in Power Fighters.
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If they weren´t lazy they would give Bass a more unique sprite too...Atlest he kept his abilities sans double jump.
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MM4 had the best version of the charge shot.
Are you kidding me..?
If they weren´t lazy they would give Bass a more unique sprite too...Atlest he kept his abilities sans double jump.
yeah. At least they did that right.
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Just because it's not your cup of tea, doesn't mean the game is bad. The lack of charge and slide in itself was a novel idea to recapture the retro gameplay that made Rockman famous. For all the complaints about cheap difficulty, we were given a special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness, and an actual incentive to go about and use them. The next game simply took the same premise and re-balanced it to further suit their fancy.
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Are you kidding me..?
No, this is the honest truth. It's not too big and having the cool blue & acid green flashing instead of the boring blue + white.
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Are you kidding me..?
Can you completely [tornado fang] up a bosses attack pattern with the charge shot in 5 and 6? no? yeah I thought so.
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Are you kidding me..?
I must ask what you found flawed about MM4's Charge Shot, its fine.
At least one thing most of us can be happy about is that we haven't had another game with MM5's awful Rush Coil.
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Just because it's not your cup of tea, doesn't mean the game is bad. The lack of charge and slide in itself was a novel idea to recapture the retro gameplay that made Rockman famous. For all the complaints about cheap difficulty, we were given a special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness, and an actual incentive to go about and use them. The next game simply took the same premise and re-balanced it to further suit their fancy.
I don't think anyone in their right mind objected to "recapturing the retro", it's just that MM9 laid it on way too thick. There is an extreme difference between going back to form and outright ignoring the contributions of later titles.
Making such heavy attempts while at the same time failing to achieve the gameplay balance of the games they're tributing only serves to make the differences stand out like a sore thumb. There's a difference between a retro can of paint and retro game balance. The earlier says that you're probably intending the latter, and 9, while a solid game in its own right, failed in that regard. When people say that 9 has "cheap difficulty", they're not saying that the game is itself hard. Quite the opposite, it is easily broken with the combination of Jewel Satellite and a Tellybomb spawn point. What they're saying is that, when they do die, too often it is some cheap stunt from off-screen with no warning.
Overcoming the challenges of a game such as MegaMan comes from a balance of experience and reaction time. 9's biggest problem is that too often it almost entirely forsakes the latter. Beating it is a simple matter of knowing what it's going to throw at you. To hard for the first time, too easy for replays, all depends on how you look at it. It's not that the game's challenge is too hard, or not hard enough. It's that the game's challenge is shallow and unsatisfying.
Oh, and I must object to the phrase "special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness". That is an extremely lofty claim for a series that includes Metal Blade and Storm Tornado. I will grant that 9 probably has the best shield in the series, but I don't think that going for shopping sprees with Auto as opposed to actually finding crap that you need is the best incentive.
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Granted, I havent played 4 in a long time, so I didnt quite remember how powerful it was. What I didnt like was the loss of the shot when you got hit.
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Overcoming the challenges of a game such as MegaMan comes from a balance of experience and reaction time. 9's biggest problem is that too often it almost entirely forsakes the latter. Beating it is a simple matter of knowing what it's going to throw at you. To hard for the first time, too easy for replays, all depends on how you look at it. It's not that the game's challenge is too hard, or not hard enough. It's that the game's challenge is shallow and unsatisfying.
Oh, and I must object to the phrase "special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness". That is an extremely lofty claim for a series that includes Metal Blade and Storm Tornado. I will grant that 9 probably has the best shield in the series, but I don't think that going for shopping sprees with Auto as opposed to actually finding crap that you need is the best incentive.
I don't disagree that 9's balance is off, and that 10 fixed it. I just think the degree with which it is off is sorely exaggerated. Not to mention, it has nothing to do with slide and charge being excluded. There exclusion actually lends merit to an aspect of 9's broken difficulty that I actually did like, that being the special weapons.
Fact of the matter is that previous games in the series often had only a sole weapon stand out, and had an otherwise useless arsenal overshadowed by the buster. Rockman9 is different in that literally every single weapon is a great weapon to use in stages, further emphasized by the low mobility and low offensive of MM2 gameplay.
Again, Rockman 10 redid the balance and fixed every problem Rockman 9 had. If they continue on that course, I more than welcome more games without the slide and charge available as a default.
They do need to rethink their upgrade system, though. There's no excuse for not allowing their unlocking down the road.
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Not to mention, it has nothing to do with slide and charge being excluded.
Maybe not "difficulty" in the sense of getting you killed, but the absence of the slide coupled with the type of enemies introduced definitely increases the frustration level. Those potted plant missiles never cease to annoy me, a seeker-enemy should not be moving that fast in a game that has no slide.
The upshot of Powered Up being so claustrophobic is that you don't really feel the need to move quickly the way you do in 9.
Fact of the matter is that previous games in the series often had only a sole weapon stand out, and had an otherwise useless arsenal overshadowed by the buster. Rockman9 is different in that literally every single weapon is a great weapon to use in stages, further emphasized by the low mobility and low offensive of MM2 gameplay.
Very few of the weapons in 2 or X1 would fall into the category of being overshadowed by the buster. Maybe Rolling Shield if you disregard the charge.
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Very few of the weapons in 2 or X1 would fall into the category of being overshadowed by the buster.
It's the charge that overshadows the special weapons, especially in the later NES title. It's absence allowed greater focus on the special weapons once again.
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There's something wrong with me, I can beat Mega Man 2 easily, but I cant even beat one stage on Mega Man 9
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Just keep trying against Splash Woman, the game should get easier after that.
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Granted, I havent played 4 in a long time, so I didnt quite remember how powerful it was. What I didnt like was the loss of the shot when you got hit.
That didn't happen in 4. I think that happened in 5 and 6 though.
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It's the charge that overshadows the special weapons
There's no charge in 2, and MHX definitely wants a word with you.
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I still say that the best way to get the most out of special weapons is to allow the player to use their buster with a special weapon equipped. (Like with MM8/X4-onwards). You're still allowed to experiment without having to give up your primary source of damage.
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I don't disagree that 9's balance is off, and that 10 fixed it. I just think the degree with which it is off is sorely exaggerated. Not to mention, it has nothing to do with slide and charge being excluded. There exclusion actually lends merit to an aspect of 9's broken difficulty that I actually did like, that being the special weapons.
Fact of the matter is that previous games in the series often had only a sole weapon stand out, and had an otherwise useless arsenal overshadowed by the buster. Rockman9 is different in that literally every single weapon is a great weapon to use in stages, further emphasized by the low mobility and low offensive of MM2 gameplay.
Again, Rockman 10 redid the balance and fixed every problem Rockman 9 had. If they continue on that course, I more than welcome more games without the slide and charge available as a default.
They do need to rethink their upgrade system, though. There's no excuse for not allowing their unlocking down the road.
I pretty much agree with everything stated here.
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I keep hearing 10 is better than 9. That gives me a little hope in deciding to try it out. I'm hesitant on downloadable titles due to the fact that if you're unsatisfied, you're out of money. You can't return, you can't trade.
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To me,10 felt far fresher than 9.
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I keep hearing 10 is better than 9. That gives me a little hope in deciding to try it out. I'm hesitant on downloadable titles due to the fact that if you're unsatisfied, you're out of money. You can't return, you can't trade.
I liked 9 a lot and even I think 10 is a much better game.
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I liked 9 a lot and even I think 10 is a much better game.
Is this before or after you add the Blues factor? :V
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There's no charge in 2, and MHX definitely wants a word with you.
I don't think you quite realize what I'm saying. I'm saying that MM2 gameplay, without charge and slide, puts an additional emphasis on special weapons that later classic games do not. The only reason this is not true within MM2 itself is because a certain single weapon is far too versatile there. As for the likes of X and 8, the issue is addressed by Special Weapon charging and the secondary fire button respectively.
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Charge has nothing to do with the weapons. It's an OPTION.
There's no charge in Megaman 3, but it has the second worst arsenal after 5, because most of the weapons are bad in itself.
In 5, even uncharged shots are often better choice than using a weapon. It has nothing to do with the charge.
In 6, a good number of weapons are stronger than a charged shot.
Games with top-notch special weapons are MM4, MM&Bass, MM9, X, X2.
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The crappier the Special Weapons, the more the power of the charge shot will make you want to use them even less. Fact of the matter is, the more abilities Rock gets by default, the better the Special Weapons have to be to outshine that base.
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I found 8's weapons to be pretty useful.
Even the Mega Ball could be used to high jump before you get Tornado Hold. (or as the alternative when you dont want to waste the ammo on TH, like in Astro Man's maze)
Astro Crush was the only one I found to have limited use due to it's low ammo count, but its a good screen clearer.
And 8 is the one with not just the charge shot, but 3 different Charge shots.
The crappier the Special Weapons, the more the power of the charge shot will make you want to use them even less.
But if they are crappy, I wouldnt use them anyway. Id stick to the default buster or the better weapons. Like Shadow Blade and Spark in 3.
Fact of the matter is, the more abilities Rock gets by default, the better the Special Weapons have to be to outshine that base.
And whats wrong with that? Thats like Inti creates making Hard mode hard by nerfing Zero's default abilities rather than actually making things harder by making everything else faster and stronger. Its making them more useful by nerfing the player. That shouldnt be needed. 7 and 8's arsenals are good enough even with the Charge Shot. Even MM&B's weapons, while not always useful, were made useful by the game's broken difficulty as Rock.
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Is this before or after you add the Blues factor? :V
Haha, before. Playable Blues does make everything better though.
As for the Charge, I agree with Zan. Personally, when the charge shot was introduced, I pretty much never used the special weapons again cept on bosses sometimes and Wily.
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I found 8's weapons to be pretty useful.
Even the Mega Ball could be used to high jump before you get Tornado Hold. (or as the alternative when you dont want to waste the ammo on TH, like in Astro Man's maze)
Astro Crush was the only one I found to have limited use due to it's low ammo count, but its a good screen clearer.
I think MM8's arsenal is really underrated. As you said, Mega Ball gives you a really large number of vertical jumps, actually getting you places better than the Tornado Hold can if you use it correctly. Flash Bomb's a X4-6 plasma shot that you can have 2 of on screen at a time IIRC. Ice Wave wrecks anything on the ground/wall, Water Balloon has strength in numbers, and the sheer invincibility frames that you get from Astro Crush are more than enough to get you through some parts of the sled section in Wily Stage 1.
In the end, the only thing holding most of the weapons back in MM8 is the existence of the Arrow Shot. It's THAT broken!
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But you forgot also to mention the cleverness of 8's shop. You couldn't buy everything because you had only a set amount of bolts to spend.
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True. But you could still get both charge shot types.
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But getting them was more rewarding because you had to find and get the bolts first. No cheap farming.
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Yeah, and there were only certain essentials that you really needed before you could spend the rest on whatever you wanted. H. Speed Charge, Arrow, (and Laser if you're into that), Energy Balancer, Energy Saver, and Super Recover were mainstays.
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That said, there was also a lot of junk in there. I only really bother with Energy Saver, Energy Balancer and Arrow Shot.
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I love the laser shot.
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That said, there was also a lot of junk in there. I only really bother with Energy Saver, Energy Balancer and Arrow Shot.
If you bought Step Booster...yeah.
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or that one that made you fire normal shots while charging, that one was pointless. or was it charge TO rapid fire or something?
point stabnds though, despite the charge shot, 7-8.5's weapons were all useful. I actually never find myself using the buster in 8. I just flash bomb the [parasitic bomb] out of everything.
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Speaking of 8. Being able to use Buster and Special weapon at the same time. That was awesome and I want to see it back.
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Speaking of 8. Being able to use Buster and Special weapon at the same time. That was awesome and I want to see it back.
Remember it was done in X4-X6 as well, why they didn't include an option like that in X1-X3 and MM7 I have no clue (Since the PSOne and SNES have an identical setup other than the extra Shoulder buttons (Which were only used for Giga Crashes anyway) they could've mapped buster to two buttons and had special weapon usage on one of them, but I digress, i'm getting a little off topic.)
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Is this before or after you add the Blues factor? :V
Who do you think PB is? He'd have paid for Blues in 9 immediately.
9 had a female robot master, and revisited the concept of Light-bot Robot Masters. That was it. 10 did everything else better.
I don't think you quite realize what I'm saying. I'm saying that MM2 gameplay, without charge and slide, puts an additional emphasis on special weapons that later classic games do not.
Creating emphasis by removing abilities has been my biggest complaint with Inticreates ever since Zero1.
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Creating emphasis by removing abilities has been my biggest complaint with Inticreates ever since Zero1.
What about X4?
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What about it?
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X4 removes Zero's Z-Buster ability which was a staple from X1-X3 and puts an additional emphasis on his Z-Saber for the main purpose of aesthetic and to make him somewhat different from X.
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Granted on the Z-Buster, but this was a complete playstyle change. It was to differentiate the two characters, not because they cant come up with better special weapons. This isn't the same as removing the charge shot to force you to use special weapons. In fact, using his saber is still the main form of attack in X4, even with his special moves.
Making a character's playstyle different is one thing. Nerfing a character to improve the special weapons is another.
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It's not forcing you to use special weapons. It's forcing you to use his Z-Saber with its special abilities/techniques. It's still removing abilities to create emphasis on a certain attribute (special weapons or Z-Saber) and it makes ZERO sense for him not to have his buster, which for all intents and purposes was as strong as X's. Also, with MM9 & MM10, you could argue that they removed the charge shot & slide to make him different that Blues, and later Blues & Forte.
Zero was nerfed, just like Rock was, probably to make the game just a little more challenging. Like Zan said though, there's no reason not to make it an unlockable later on.
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What about X4?
One reason among several that I love X6 and TvC. :P
That said, I am referring more to play style than I am to character identity (if you want to talk Zero and signature abilities, that's a WHOLE OTHER discussion with what Inticreates was doing). Referencing X3, Zero's saber was the only thing to differentiate him from X. Further, to not nerf Zero would be next to impossible; the guy could kill any boss in two hits.
In X4, Zero's play style abandons a single-game presentation, which is not much of a precedent, and more importantly, the buster continued to exist in X with no real drawbacks. 9 and 10 do not have such a luxury, as selecting ProtoMan punishes you with double damage and knockback.