RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => ZX => Topic started by: Align on May 30, 2011, 05:09:14 PM
-
Why did they choose to limit reploid lifespans instead of allowing humans to change their bodies entirely to machines as they grew older? A workforce that can keep working indefinitely bar accidents, and grows ever more skilled... And overpopulation could be managed as long as you enforce sterility and abandon production of new reploids.
-
Review those last two measures. So those sound appealing at all? YOU CANT HAVE A FAMILY. NOPE.
Overpopulation would rock the place. no amount of sterility laws are going to prevent people from reproducing.
And besides, even with lifespans, they still live an exorbitant amount of time. Recall Ciel disappearing only shortly before ZX. That's 200 years after the Zero series. And whatsis name in ZXA claiming to be an "old model" reploid. (And looking it too) Reploids and humans have lifespans, but still live very long lives. lives more than long enough to set their affairs in order.
-
But they still die, which certainly isn't something everyone would choose if it was a choice, rather than a law.
As for family, if you had a machine body you could probably opt out of biological urges (and of course, just because you have an urge doesn't mean it's okay to act on it); people would adapt. And I meant law in the enforced sense, just like the limited lifespans.
-
So no family, no new people, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can hypnotize themselves?
Align, do us all a favor and don't dominate the world.
"Biological urges" are not a simple matter of a to-do list. People work for two reasons: to care for others, and to care for themselves. To many people of reasonable age, taking care of loved ones constitutes the better part of motivation in life. Deny the world the chance to start a family of their own, and your ideal work force breaks down. Do so to a population that is virtually immune to hunger and the elements and it only gets worse. Basic needs become non-threatening (the immortal don't really "need" food and shelter) and selfish gain becomes the only thing to work towards. Assuming for the sake of decency that you somehow curb that, and there's little to nothing left.
Immortality can be a curse if life becomes too monotonous. We, as a people, continually generate new experiences. When that is lost, life is meaningless. Weil himself suffered that, and MegaMan is far from the first piece of fiction to touch on the topic. "Death Wish" on Star Trek Voyager is one of my favorites. "Nobody says anything, because it's all been said."
Or hell, just look at the Master and Elysium in Legends 2.
-
So no family, no new people, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can hypnotize themselves?
Align, do us all a favor and don't dominate the world.
Heh, well, I wouldn't take such drastic measures without having a big debate first. I'm a fair ruler.
"Biological urges" are not a simple matter of a to-do list. People work for two reasons: to care for others, and to care for themselves. To many people of reasonable age, taking care of loved ones constitutes the better part of motivation in life. Deny the world the chance to start a family of their own, and your ideal work force breaks down. Do so to a population that is virtually immune to hunger and the elements and it only gets worse. Basic needs become non-threatening (the immortal don't really "need" food and shelter) and selfish gain becomes the only thing to work towards. Assuming for the sake of decency that you somehow curb that, and there's little to nothing left.
Reploids may not need to eat or sleep, but their existence isn't economically free at all, as MMZ tells us...
Your family as it is would still exist and of course you could still form bonds with new people, so it's not like society would become a sea of lone individuals. People would still care for each other, though things like marriage might become sort of nebulous; I could imagine both parts agreeing to see what life is like with other significant others.
Plus there are other things in life than working for money that people enjoy, like art and sciences of all sorts, so I doubt all that will be left for people to do is be selfish when they have little want of anything.
Immortality can be a curse if life becomes too monotonous. We, as a people, continually generate new experiences. When that is lost, life is meaningless. Weil himself suffered that, and MegaMan is far from the first piece of fiction to touch on the topic. "Death Wish" on Star Trek Voyager is one of my favorites. "Nobody says anything, because it's all been said."
I don't think that last would really happen; the universe is vast, our time in it short and our senses too narrow to get to appreciate all of it even if we live until the end of everything. And of course we're not going to FORCE people to stay alive; we're just not going to force them to age and die, either.
Or hell, just look at the Master and Elysium in Legends 2.
Not played it, unfortunately.
-
Reploids may not need to eat or sleep, but their existence isn't economically free at all, as MMZ tells us...
There are only so many kinds of labor that relate to energy resources.
Your family as it is would still exist and of course you could still form bonds with new people, so it's not like society would become a sea of lone individuals. People would still care for each other, though things like marriage might become sort of nebulous; I could imagine both parts agreeing to see what life is like with other significant others.
Defeats the point of marriage, I'd say.
"As it is" is the whole problem. Families are supposed to shift over time. You gravitate away from the people who raised you, and your ability to do so is a testament to how successful they were (or what a great self-tutor you are, if they sucked at it). The immature grow self-sufficient until they feel comfortable taking care of others, at which point they establish a new branch. If you enforce sterility, those who grow up find that they are not needed. The family unit hits an impass and only those who find fulfillment in work can adjust.
The core problem, both in family and labor, of "immortality + sterilization", is that the world effectively stagnates.
Plus there are other things in life than working for money that people enjoy, like art and sciences of all sorts, so I doubt all that will be left for people to do is be selfish when they have little want of anything.
You're still working for people, though, just not in the material sense. The arts exist either to inspire others or to express and satisfy yourself. But not everyone is creative, and not everyone who is feels that they can make a big enough impact that it's worthwhile.
I don't think that last would really happen; the universe is vast, our time in it short and our senses too narrow to get to appreciate all of it even if we live until the end of everything. And of course we're not going to FORCE people to stay alive; we're just not going to force them to age and die, either.
Irrelevant. Except in cases of extreme suffering, life is not something that is ended by choice.
Not played it, unfortunately.
You are dead to me, and can get started on your resurrection by watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXflsg011Es
Even so, you'd best get your soulless husk into some PS1 action. NOW.
Basically, perfection itself was the problem. There was no death, no hunger, no disease. And after about three millennia or so of no hardship, there was no appreciation. Those on top followed their whims, those on the bottom had their duty. That was all there was to life. The Master decided they'd lost too much in that shift.
-
There are only so many kinds of labor that relate to energy resources.
I meant energy would be the new food.
Defeats the point of marriage, I'd say.
I don't see the connection. If the love remains indefinitely, then there's no need to separate, but if it doesn't they shouldn't be forced together for eternity; the marriage contract as it is now doesn't actually expect the two to live forever, so doesn't take it account. Naturally it would change, or fall out of use.
"As it is" is the whole problem. Families are supposed to shift over time. You gravitate away from the people who raised you, and your ability to do so is a testament to how successful they were (or what a great self-tutor you are, if they sucked at it). The immature grow self-sufficient until they feel comfortable taking care of others, at which point they establish a new branch. If you enforce sterility, those who grow up find that they are not needed. The family unit hits an impass and only those who find fulfillment in work can adjust.
As someone who does find fulfilment in work I'm not sure how to approach this. Is it the case then, that most people would feel like they have no purpose in life if they can't have children? (which I guess is biologically correct, but doesn't have to be that way in practice)
The core problem, both in family and labor, of "immortality + sterilization", is that the world effectively stagnates.
Hmm... people would stop changing and learning?
You're still working for people, though, just not in the material sense. The arts exist either to inspire others or to express and satisfy yourself. But not everyone is creative, and not everyone who is feels that they can make a big enough impact that it's worthwhile.
So these people work for money in our current society, and would have nothing to do without that? I don't believe that, either.
Irrelevant. Except in cases of extreme suffering, life is not something that is ended by choice.
Which is my point. Enforcing death is the utmost cruelty.
You are dead to me, and can get started on your resurrection by watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXflsg011Es
Even so, you'd best get your soulless husk into some PS1 action. NOW.
Well, I played the first game for the 64, so I didn't completely miss out. Just wasn't impressed enough by it to get the sequel, though I had forgotten how bad Megaman's voice was.
Basically, perfection itself was the problem. There was no death, no hunger, no disease. And after about three millennia or so of no hardship, there was no appreciation. Those on top followed their whims, those on the bottom had their duty. That was all there was to life. The Master decided they'd lost too much in that shift.
This is perhaps excessively cynical, but how is that different from now? If you believe there's a better fate after death, I could see feeling that immortality does more harm than good, but...
-
Because as things are say, right now, even those on the bottom have whims, and live their lives. On Elysium, that was lost. the bottom did nothing but their duty, and nothing else. No lives, no whims, only their duty. And the top followed their whims with no aim, no goals or thoughts in life. A life of empty meaningless perfection.
-
Because if the population was gonna remain exactly the same and there wasn't a flux or a deadline or a target, the general robot/human/whatever sentient being will start to wonder
[spoiler]WHAT AM I WORKING FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR?![/SPOILER]
Also, children are cute. I sure as hell ain't livin' in a world without them.
On the serious side, basically, despair gives meaning to joy, hunger gives meaning to food, disease gives meaning to health. Death gives meaning to life.
Simple as that.
-
Exactly. Nothing has meaning, has purpose, without its opposite. Light needs shadow, cold needs warmth, loneliness needs company, wet needs dry, etc. When you take away half of the equation, its whole meaning is lost.
-
Yes, yes, there are loads of adages and sayings like that, but I can't help but feel it's a case of sour grapes; we've never been in a position to have anything else so we're going to justify it as being better in the first place anyway.
Because as things are say, right now, even those on the bottom have whims, and live their lives. On Elysium, that was lost. the bottom did nothing but their duty, and nothing else. No lives, no whims, only their duty. And the top followed their whims with no aim, no goals or thoughts in life. A life of empty meaningless perfection.
I see... but is that scenario really inevitable? Self-improvement and exploration seems like they'd go on forever.
Heck, consider terraforming Mars into a habitable planet; people could have children as long as there's space and resources, so huge projects like that could give them something to look forward to as well as something meaningful to work on, if the old urges are retained.
-
What. What? Whaaaaaaaat? Do you have no imagination? Or is your brain stuck in 'idealism'?
This is a simple matter of relativity. Walk from a bright room into a normal one. Does it look dark or light? Walk from a dark room into a normal one, does it look dark or light? You can try this at home by the way.
Go inside a 25 degree area after being out in the hot sun. Go inside a 25 degree area after being out in the snow.
People living in eternal happiness with no fear of death will never be able to appreciate the glory of being alive. Living and 'happiness' will be the normal state. There won't be anything higher to look forward to or to enjoy.
And then there is the question: Why? Why are you continually trying to work towards something 'better'? To continually improve technology and your skills and your self? What's the point? You're happy, you're immortal, you're perfect. Everyone is friends with each other, there are no flaws anywhere. What else do you want? Nothing.
...Oh.
Right well...that's awkward.
-
Its not an adage; its fact. Think on this: if there was no such thing as darkness, by what would we define light? There'd be nothing, as it would be a persistent condition that we wouldn't think on. The same goes for life without death. When there is no comparison, no opposite, there is no meaning. The very fact that death exists makes life precious; we only have a limited time in life so we use it the best way we can.
By giving Reploids lifespans, it gave their existence a value that simply didn't exist before.
-
Obviously. It's just not very meaningful, especially since death would still be there - at the end of the universe, if nothing else.
-
But that's after an eternity of meaningless existence, far too distant in time to give meaning to anything.
-
Obviously. It's just not very meaningful, especially since death would still be there - at the end of the universe, if nothing else.
Thats assuming their universe will end.
-
That's... true. I suppose with Cyberspace capable of altering reality, the MM universe isn't necessarily bound by inevitable entropy.
But that's after an eternity of meaningless existence, far too distant in time to give meaning to anything.
The fact that it's still there as a "threat" would be enough to give contrast. And what of non-aging-related deaths?
-
Such as? There would be none in a perfect world.
Except for mavericks of course, which even the master system seemed to have.
-
But the idea wasn't a perfect world, it was humans with machine bodies.
-
But the idea wasn't a perfect world, it was humans with machine bodies.
I thought they were like cyborg bodies o-O
-
Well, humans with machine parts. I don't remember how exactly they phrased it in MMZX...
-
After a certain degree of age, by law, the flesh body can partially or fully be replaced with machine. Those fully replaced will have their flesh bodies stored in a facility somewhere and are given a Hu Number to indicate such.
-
Hmm... Is it still a cyborg if it's 100% machine but was originally flesh?
Guess asking "why can't they have their bodies replaced" was incorrect then, but the question of the enforced ageing remains so I'll leave it for posterity.
-
Hmm... Is it still a cyborg if it's 100% machine but was originally flesh?
Guess asking "why can't they have their bodies replaced" was incorrect then, but the question of the enforced ageing remains so I'll leave it for posterity.
Your still a cyborg if you have a human brain.
-
Hmm... Is it still a cyborg if it's 100% machine but was originally flesh?
Guess asking "why can't they have their bodies replaced" was incorrect then, but the question of the enforced ageing remains so I'll leave it for posterity.
Note that only the humans that had their bodies fully replaced, are able to be Rockmen. Especially the model A user would require such, transforming the whole body to forms much bigger and much smaller.
The biggest message here; the equality laws are ultimately all part of two madmen's masterplans.
-
I guess the people didn't have much say in it.
Your still a cyborg if you have a human brain.
Does it count as human if it's inorganic?
-
It still stands you are a human with a machine body. And that makes you a cyborg
-
If I did it I'd probably think of myself as having changed species; "I was once human, I am now... something more"
I guess it'd be more of a case of post-op robot than a regular robot though.
-
Cyborg Mega Men? Not a bad idea.
-
Don't we already have those?
-
We do. Since Legends.
Volnutt is a cyborg Mega Man,
And the ZX protagonists Vent, Aile, and Ashe. As well as enemies Atlas and Aeolus.
-
Helios and Atlas 'might' be Repliroids. It's unspecified after all. As for Rockman Trigger; he's a who knows what.
-
He's a Purifier Unit, right?
-
He's a sex machine!
-
And he almost lost his crotch plate too.
-
Helios and Atlas 'might' be Repliroids. It's unspecified after all. As for Rockman Trigger; he's a who knows what.
MIGHT be. It isnt specified, but almost all reploids have their triangle very visible (even Prairie, who has it semi obscured) but those two have no visible red triangles at all.
-
Why would the law try and control Repliroid haircuts?
-
Haven't you heard of the fashion police, Zan? ;P
-
The fashion police has human prejudice?
-
If they find humanity to be fabulous, yes.
-
Maybe it IS a law that the triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_badge) should be visible if you have one.
-
Why would the law try and control Repliroid haircuts?
Would it be a stretch? they are already enforcing equality between reploid and Human via making both races mechanical and aging, I wouldnt be surprised if there was some sort of law that required Reploid triangles to be visible. I mean hey serve SOME purpose, given that Zero series reploids did not require any triangles or such on their bodies. Alouette did not have a crystal until she was fitted for the Reploid/Human Laws. They are either to mark Repolids as reploids, or for some sort of other purpose. (Solar energy collector maybe?) As such, if they have some purpose, I would assume they are required to not be entirely obscured.
Im just going by what the games present. I mean, even the reploid dog has it visible when it stands to reason that it should be covered by fur or not have one at all.
All reploids we have seen so far are marked by the red triangle, and they all have it visible. As such I would reason that if there is no triangle visible, they are Human.
-
Wait, even reploid dogs have triangles ?
-
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4407/unledlbf.png)
-
They are either to mark Repolids as reploids,
That's what they're there for. But why would a bunch of vigilantes hellbent on changing the world care about showing it at all times? No matter how much of an educated guess you'd make it, in the end it's still an assumption to call them humans; as it is unspecified, leave it unspecified.
-
Atlas is human. The precedent is established by Prairie that Inti will show partially-obscured marks. The gap in Atlas's bangs is too wide to cover the mark completely. Look at her art and try to "draw" a triangle on her in only the space covered by her hair. Doesn't work, the proper position would leave it partially visible, and by quite a large margin.
Aeolus's hair is actually thick enough to believably cover the entire mark.
Note that only the humans that had their bodies fully replaced, are able to be Rockmen. Especially the model A user would require such, transforming the whole body to forms much bigger and much smaller.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
That's a baseless assumption. From Albert's perspective, "the mere fusion of man and machine" is a simple matter beneath his evolutionary goals. They require only Albert's DNA; no further restrictions have been specified or hinted.
It is a fact that Model A and A-Trans can handle human DNA, otherwise Ashe's story doesn't work. She inhereted Albert's DNA by birth and her machine body was, by Albert's own words, "completely unaltered." In light of that, one of the following must be true:
A. Ashe's machine body is not a full replacement, or:
B. Human DNA can be mapped and converted for machine purposes.
The only way your statement is justified is if you take answer B and then go on to explain why neither the R.O.C.K. System nor A-Trans can do what Legion's facilities can.
We've seen human bodies transferred as data since the Zero-series, using portable devices no less. There is no reason to assume that technology cannot convert and rearrange the human body two centuries later. I'll also remind you that A-Trans is not bound by the mass of the user (weight mechanics of Bifrost). Assuming for the sake of argument that the human body is incompatible as "raw material" for other forms, storing it as data would be child's play compared to everything else that A-Trans does.
-
Atlas is human. The precedent is established by Prairie that Inti will show partially-obscured marks. The gap in Atlas's bangs is too wide to cover the mark completely. Look at her art and try to "draw" a triangle on her in only the space covered by her hair. Doesn't work, the proper position would leave it partially visible, and by quite a large margin.
I'm just playing devil's advocate, is all.
Your precedence requires that there are no oversights in the drawing of the characters. In Prairie's case it was clearly established by the plot that she is a Repliroid. Atlas has no such luxury.
I'd say er being human is likely. But it would be an educated guess, with no affirmation from the story.
That's a baseless assumption. From Albert's perspective, "the mere fusion of man and machine" is a simple matter beneath his evolutionary goals. They require only Albert's DNA; no further restrictions have been specified or hinted.
By his own admission, Albert's DNA is included with the machine body, every part of it. Any part of the flesh body that remains does not have Albert's DNA.
In Ashe's case, ofcourse human DNA and Repliroid DNA can be converted to one another. If it wasn't she wouldn't be a Rockman. It is after all the machine body's DNA that all other have to have for the transformation to work.
-
When I try to imagine a flesh bodied Human trying to use A-Trans I'm reminded of Metroid Prime 1's entries on the Space Pirates attempts to reverse engineer the Morphball.
-
It's a rather bizarre parallel with my previous post that Prime depicts Samus as becoming a mass of energy in a hollow semi-open sphere...
Hopefully Albert has greater expertise in that area than the Pirates. XD
By his own admission, Albert's DNA is included with the machine body, every part of it. Any part of the flesh body that remains does not have Albert's DNA.
In Ashe's case, ofcourse human DNA and Repliroid DNA can be converted to one another. If it wasn't she wouldn't be a Rockman. It is after all the machine body's DNA that all other have to have for the transformation to work.
The point then is that a "partial" replacement can just as easily contain Albert's DNA as a "full" replacement, and that there is no grounds to eliminating the earlier as a possibility for Albert's chosen ones. They must have a machine body for Albert to mark them, absolutely, but nothing says that the extent of their chosen machine body is a relevant factor. The claim that biological components throw a monkey wrench into the Biometal's workings is baseless.
I'm just playing devil's advocate, is all.
Your precedence requires that there are no oversights in the drawing of the characters. In Prairie's case it was clearly established by the plot that she is a Repliroid. Atlas has no such luxury.
I'd say er being human is likely. But it would be an educated guess, with no affirmation from the story.
In that case, anybody could hypothetically "disguise" the mark with the Reploid equivalent to a bald cap. The only "affirmation from the story" of any human is the letters "Hu" under the life bar.
Repetition with consistent results reduces the likelihood of what you're suggesting (that is, there is more than one drawing of Atlas, and the angle of her hair is revisited every time). That Atlas is human is a logical conclusion based on the evidence at hand, with nothing to contradict it.
If a definitive point arises to challenge that, it falls into "minor retcon" territory, in that it glazes over previous contradicting details, relying on suspension of disbelief to excuse the previous developer/artist neglect.
-
The point then is that a "partial" replacement can just as easily contain Albert's DNA as a "full" replacement, and that there is no grounds to eliminating the earlier as a possibility for Albert's chosen ones. They must have a machine body for Albert to mark them, absolutely, but nothing says that the extent of their chosen machine body is a relevant factor. The claim that biological components throw a monkey wrench into the Biometal's workings is baseless.
I'd like to put additional emphasis on Albert stating "every part" when speaking of the bionic bodies of those to become Rockmen. To become a Rockman is considerably hampered by only having a single arm or leg undergo the process. Albert was considerably more thorough in his selection of the Chosen Ones.
Also, I really do think the death animation being the same between human and Repliroid would be considerably awkward without a complete replacement of their flesh bodies with machine....
the letters "Hu" under the life bar.
Now that you bring up the Hu" under the life bar, I'm reminded; it was stated that those who's full bodies have been replaced are given a "Hu" number to indicate the flesh body being stored away. Although we won't know with Thomas' scheme of using those human bodies going nowhere fast, I'd be interested in finding out if a correlation between the two exists.
-
It's been far too long since we've had a nice discussion like this.
-
Indeed.
Also, I really do think the death animation being the same between human and Repliroid would be considerably awkward without a complete replacement of their flesh bodies with machine....
Its a kids game. One with a much lighter tone than the Zero series. They arent about to show a Human's guts all over.
Not to mention the staple Mega Man death animation used in every game is more just that, a staple. Something thats just there because every other game has it. We are meant to assume ( I assume, lol) they just explode, or fall dead. Otherwise id like to know how upon death robots mysteriously turn into energy bubbles.
it certainly would help with cleanup!
-
Whilst going tiun tiun tiun...
-
Its a kids game. One with a much lighter tone than the Zero series. They arent about to show a Human's guts all over.
They could have just animated it like in DASH.
-
Hey guys, I'll just add my two cents. This below is all my conjecture and assumptions and such that I culled from my mind and the internet, such as the MMKB, and other places. A note is that I'm assuming that certain elements that were put in probably for gameplay sake is true to the way their world works, like being in Human form in the presumably frigid weather of Area F and not freezing to death.
Reploid and Human desires aside, as well as their inherent differences (Manufacture (which is sort of creepy in my mind), vs birth). I'm wondering about the fundamental differences.
Reploids are still made, created in factories. Not really sure if they're born as children and their bodies are either upgraded as time goes on, or a pseudo-biological material allows their bodies to mature like humans so. Their minds also seem to have limiters that force them to learn like humans do, Andrew from Zero mentions that reploid children went to school with human children, and were better at sports and faster at learning, thus saying that unlike a normal computer which would only require one instance of an event to learn it, their minds emulate a human's a require at least a few repetitions to nail down a topic (This is assuming that Reploid science is still fundamentally the same over the course of 300+ years). Some of this explains how Giro, being only 15~25, is mature like a human adult, perhaps Reploids are made with developed minds, or learn at a quicker pace. Another theory could be that Reploids are created with adult minds, but different bodies which they can modify appearance-wise whenever they want based on their desire, but still keep their age programming.
Since Reploids posses programming on par with human personalities, they're capable of falling in love and possibly sharing the same carnal desires humans do. I theorize that Reploids posses sexual organs and sexual programming to facilitate emotional equality with humans, however, it's not known if Reploids have reproductive qualities of any kind, though this is highly unlikely. Also, apparently when a new Reploid is activated, they're also given a life-span (I'm assuming ~150 years as being the norm) to give them mortality. Humans cannot have immortality without sacrificing their unique trait, which is ironically their natural mortality. The Sage Trinity being a prime example as they're technically not human any more. It is still up for grabs whether or not Reploids receive anything organic in terms of modification, such as living skin tissue for their faces or something. Just being made and given a timer on your life would just suck for the humans who go through much more modification to be made equal.
Humans are still born as naturals (Cedre who sells E-tanks in ZX mentions to Aile that "Your parents gave you life"), which means that instead of being gestated in test tubes with a parent's genetic material, the parents still retain human reproductive organs with human children being born of the female womb. This means that the male genitalia and female genitalia and womb is left unmodified. At a certain age, perhaps around the end of adolescence, humans are given mechanical components replacing certain parts of their bodies, with their flesh parts being stored (For what reason?) in the Legion HQ. These modifications seem to include ear plates, probably linked to the brain in some fashion, and a fitting black bodysuit (Ciel the human is seen with one on at all times in the Zero series) probably for protection and hygiene and likely being their new skin, which would aid in healing from wounds and temperature control, especially in extreme conditions (How Aile/Vent make it through Area F without freezing to death). However in artwork for the Hunter's Guild, there is one hunter with his arms skin-colored, indicating that the pigment of the suit can be changed, or certain parts of the body can be left uncovered. The ear-plates and possible partial cyberization of the brain with implants make humans susceptible to turning into Mavericks through manipulation and leaving them susceptible to hacking and electronic warfare (Which is why Chronoforce's hacking "Timebomb" ability works on Ashe who is human). With all of these modifications, while biologically human, the humans of this era are cyborgs by definition, though by this time it's probably safe to assume that "Human" doesn't mean what parts of you are still natural, but rather how you came to be; i.e. born vs. made. Part of me wonders how a fully mature human natural (No modification to body) would be viewed in that universe. Like if some fully grown, unmodified adult fell through time and appeared in the ZX timeframe.
Truly the lines between man and machine have blurred to almost nothing.
Okay, I think I made enough rambling exposition there. I'm curious about how far the humans have been mechanized aside from the suits and ear plates. Vent and Aile can use Sub Tanks to recover "health" and use biometals to augment their physical bodies. I theorize that the only parts of humans that are replaced are the limbs, part of the torso, and certain important bone structures, like the spine, ribs, and hips. The reason I say this is because looking at the megamerged forms of the Chosen ones, every part of their body is covered in armor except for the full torso, which only has a breast plate over the rib-cage and their abdominal areas being uncovered. A reinforced body would also explain why the hero characters don't die in one hit from any attack, Grey/Ashe survived Prometheus' scythe attack while sustaining major damage in their normal forms. Human for Ashe, "Squishy" reploid for Grey.
I assume that nano-technology comes into play here when healing wounds in battle with health-items. Something that human bodies are probably capable to using in tandem with their mechanical organs and bodysuits, and something Reploids can do anyway because of their mechanical nature.
In the end, humans receive partial machine-bodies, with their flesh parts being held in cold-storage instead of disposed of (I can see a lot of limbs neatly cauterized in massive tanks, really creepy, eh? And to think Legion keeps those in the BASEMENT!). These bodies give humans longer lives and greater durability than ever before. I have no idea what Master Thomas plans to do with human body parts and pre-New Law reploid data as stated in the ZXA secret ending (Maybe a giant flesh-being with an immortal mind?)
On to my beef with Prairie. She's stated to have lived at least 200 years (post-Ragnarok Incident), and still appears youthful. Now, the Zero/ZX series has always been bad with lifespans, so we don't know how long she'd lived before you see her as Alouette in Z1. I assume her to be an old-type Reploid, one dating to before the new laws were implemented. Now, if she did comply with the new laws (She apparently DOES have a red triangle on her forehead like all new reploids which to me looks like an inverted Resistance symbol that's found on their old berets), she would have to have been marked and possibly reprogrammed with a new life span. Actually, I forgot where I was going with this... Sorry. Maybe she just was exempted or escaped the laws that gave Reploids mortality and is technically "immortal?" Maybe all she did was paste on a red sticker?
Last but not least, Reploid manufacture. Since Reploids are supposed to be identical to humans, each one has to have a different personality. I theorize that Reploids are made rather seldomly, or in small batches. I suspect its because creating a unique "Personality Matrix" or coding a unique Reploid "DNA" sequence takes time, as does making a new body with the high-specifications that the laws probably require. It also helps with population control and having a being with a complex mind makes them less vulnerable to turning Maverick, as opposed to mechaniloids who have basic programming that is easy to control.
On the topic of dying, I don't thing blowing apart is normal, just put in for tradition sake. They probably die by collapsing like most things do when killed by gunfire. Notice that only Pseudoroids and other boss characters explode. Except for Kraft who just went *fzzzzt* *dead*.
Any one have any thoughts on the Human's modification? Or anything else related? Sorry, this was the most relevant thread for me to post in. I hope this made sense, I just typed this out at once and lost my train of thought a few times.
-
That's more then two cents. That's probably one of the most likely theories that I've ever read regarding the human modifications of the ZX series.
-
Ciel is not a cybrog as far as the Zero series goes. Pre ZX when she was a Guradian, is much more likely, considering she was around 200 years after Zero 4.
Now just an idea, but aren't the Guardians a Government thing? I can see special Govt folks like leaders and such having longer lifespans than the average Human or Reploid.
On the topic of dying, I don't thing blowing apart is normal, just put in for tradition sake. They probably die by collapsing like most things do when killed by gunfire. Notice that only Pseudoroids and other boss characters explode. Except for Kraft who just went *fzzzzt* *dead*.
I dunno. Aren't most Reploids powered by what is essentially a miniature Sun? It's a solar energy reactor, but I don't remember if it's ever detailed in well, greater detail. And either way, it is still a generator that converts solar to electric. if that thing goes sour, given the amount of juice Reploids probably run on, it could most certainly explode. Ever seen a transformer explosion? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MywHqdA2_-8)
The Reploid power source does not seem to have changed in the hundreds of years since Light first stuck it in his robots, and X series robots exploded plenty. The grandeur and flashiness of the explosions are for show, because they HAVE to blow up, 9I recall the Big 4 blowing up in Z1 and 2 and then being fine right after- same for Copy X. But robots exploding when the wrong parts are broken wouldn't surprise me.
-
I recall the Big 4 blowing up in Z1 and 2 and then being fine right after- same for Copy X.
Neither the Big 4 nor Copy-X explode when beaten. They simply collapse and go down to their knees. Only ones to explode are Phantom during the rematch (he selfdestructs) and Copy X MK-II (due to the boobytrap placed in him by Vile, triggered when activating his Armed Phenomenon).
-
Ciel is not a cybrog as far as the Zero series goes.
I think it's a very real possibility that Ciel might have a partial machine body during Rockman Zero. The technology should already be available in that era.
Now just an idea, but aren't the Guardians a Government thing? I
Dunno, even the Sage Trinity do not seem much aware of Guardian's movements.
The US ZX site once defined them as a "secret government organization." But that information cannot be confirmed ever again cause the non-Japanese branches of Capcom can't be bothered to keep these kind of sites up and running.
-
But there's no precedent outside of Weil, to base that on, and Weil was a special case. I'm pretty sure something like that would have come up sooner in source material. What DOES come up is the fact that she was genetically modified and [parasitic bomb], and was essentially a super genius from birth. Nothing to suggest she is a cyborg or has any cyborg enhancement. As fast as the Zero series goes, being a "Cyborg" seems to be a big thing, as Weil is the only openly known one, and it's a plot point, since it's his reason for still being around.
-
I think it's a very real possibility that Ciel might have a partial machine body during Rockman Zero.
"[...] but we can see that Ciel looks very different as she was originally sketched as a half-machine, half-human character."
As compared to...?
The implication that Ciel is full human might be there but unfortunately, an implication is not fact.
-
Allow me to clarify.
During the Elf Wars cyborg technology is still rather crude. ZX's machine bodies, though, completely blur the line between men and machine. This supposed quantum leap has to come with about a century of gradual technological progression.
Ciel, unlike the humans from the Caravan, equips herself to great lengths with mechanical additions. Whether these are actual modifications to the human body or simply being something she wears, being a point of contention here. Undeniably, however, it is incredibly easy to confuse her for a Reploid. Zero himself had to be told of her humanity in the first game.
As such, I observe Ciel to augment herself with the 'eyes' of Reploids, the 'ears' of Reploids, the 'skin' of Reploids, and the 'feet' of Reploids. Several of these parts may connect with her human body to a greater extend than previously imagined. The ever increasing humanization of Reploids allows these elements to work well for both species alike.
-
I imagine there would other such parts aside from the visor, in her helm, then.
-
Undeniably, however, it is incredibly easy to confuse her for a Reploid. Zero himself had to be told of her humanity in the first game.
Are you sure about that? I don't remember anything of that sort. What I do remember is that Zero was somewhat dumbfounded that Neige and the members of the Caravan were human, though.
As for Ciel, I never considered her to even partially be robotic. I actually never even had the impression she could be Repliroid at all. That is further reinforced by the fact that she needs to use a visor built into her helmet-thingy in order to see Cyberelves, which have been noted in ZX to not by visible to humans by the naked eye and can only be observed by Repliroids (most humans are not even aware of the existence of Cyberelves, even well into ZX).
As such, I observe Ciel to augment herself with the 'eyes' of Reploids, the 'ears' of Reploids, the 'skin' of Reploids, and the 'feet' of Reploids.
You remember that artwork from PHYSIS set after the game, where the Resistance and the Caravan members are celebrating their working water pump? You can see Ciel there in a dress instead of her regular clothes and she has regular human ears as opposed to Repliroid ear shells.
Granted, Vile had regular looking ears, too, but with him, it seemed more like his flesh was gradually being replaced by machine parts via nanomachines due to his rejuvenation armor.
-
That is further reinforced by the fact that she needs to use a visor built into her helmet-thingy in order to see Cyberelves
Of which I can only recall her using at her lab.
I am otherwise uncertain, with the depiction of Ciel sans-visor alongside Cyber Elves for artistic purpose; I don't know the extent of Ciel's apparent "natural affinity" with Cyber Elves.
-
Are you sure about that? I don't remember anything of that sort. What I do remember is that Zero was somewhat dumbfounded that Neige and the members of the Caravan were human, though.
Z1
Alouette: To tell you the truth, Ciel is the only human in this base! Are you surprised?
Alouette's exclamation comes long after Ciel has told us the Resistance Base is a shelter for persecuted Reploids, speaking consistently in terms of "we" and "us". There is little indication that she might be human.
Z4
Zero: ... You're human?
Neige: Yes, we are. Are Humans outside of Neo Arcadia that rare?
By comparison, Zero quickly asserts Neige and the Caravan are human. Although he is quite surprised to see humans outside of Neo Arcadia, learning of Weil's regime answered that question.
As for Ciel, I never considered her to even partially be robotic. I actually never even had the impression she could be Repliroid at all. That is further reinforced by the fact that she needs to use a visor built into her helmet-thingy in order to see Cyberelves,
Of course, this relies completely on how observant Zero and the player are. He has this whole memory problem, after all. If people did not catch it during Z1, her winter coat in Z3 expels all doubt.
which have been noted in ZX to not by visible to humans by the naked eye and can only be observed by Repliroids (most humans are not even aware of the existence of Cyberelves, even well into ZX).
In all fairness, the Reploids aren't aware either. "People" aren't aware. Still, both Machine Body humans and Reploids could see them clearly. I agree though, Ciel's visor (like her winter coat) highlights her dominant humanity.
You remember that artwork from PHYSIS set after the game, where the Resistance and the Caravan members are celebrating their working water pump? You can see Ciel there in a dress instead of her regular clothes and she has regular human ears as opposed to Repliroid ear shells.
While the ears and skin are usually indicators of humanity (the Caravan lacks either Reploid skin and Reploid ears), that same artwork from Vile's Incident displays a great many Resistance Reploids following Ciel's example. When Reploids and Humans dress alike it becomes neigh impossible to tell. Over all, I thus feel that the lines between Human and Reploid are already very blurred during the ZERO-series. Neither the inclusion or exclusion of select mechanical features confirm one over the other; they provide only an indication in either direction.
There does however seem to be some precedence for Reploids to augment themselves beyond the limitations of their humanoid forms, whereas most humans prefer a more natural appearance. As an exception to the rule, Ciel being a human scientist living among Reploids does not shy away from incorporating the fashion sense of Reploids into her daily life. By ZX's account, she'd more than welcome the wide-spread emergence of cybernetics to unite herself with her Reploid brethren.
-
Isn't Alouette's comment more about how humanlike the reploids are now?
So you wouldn't be able to tell Ciel is the only human.
-
Isn't Alouette's comment more about how humanlike the reploids are now?
So you wouldn't be able to tell Ciel is the only human.
Except we've been told that this is a base for sheltered Reploids, nothing else.
-
Yes? That's why she is the only human, but it doesn't imply anything about her appearance relative to other humans.
-
I always thought of Zero's surprise more along the lines of the fact he's amazed that 1) A human is living away from other humans (The only human we've seen in the X series is Cain), and 2) She's still alive in such a desolate place. Zero's reaction to the Caravan would be more like "Holy crap, Humans? Outside of Neo Arcadia? Surely you jest." I seem to remember from some source material that Ciel is a genetically modified human who was manipulated to have superior intellect in order to better aid humanity. Her ability to see cyber-elves could easily be explained as simply as implants for her eyes that allow her to "see" cyber-elf traces. Her helmet kit itself serves her more for a AR (Augmented Reality) interface that allows her to use computers more efficiently, and perhaps as a recognizable personal effect. As to whether or not she has cybernetic enhancements, I'd say probably not. As my previous theory said, I think that her body suit would provide ample protection against most anything, and her youthfulness and longevity could be attributed to genetic manipulation. Ciel's character wouldn't seem like the type to modify herself just to prolong her life, for what purpose would she do that and for what reason? I'm sure that Alouette could easily follow in Ciel's footsteps. If compared to human-type reploids of the X-era, the bodies of the new Zero-era ones are startlingly human. However, as Andrew in Z1 or Z2 (I forgot) said, Ciel modified his appearance in order for him to live happily with his human wife who was in old age at the time. In the end, I propose that Ciel is simply a genetically enhanced human who was modified either in gestation or in a lab (from her ancestor's genes) to have among other things: superior intellect (either in the form of increased brain functioning or modified-genetic predispositions), extended natural longevity (cell manipulation or NANOMACHINES, SON!), and sensory modification for cyber-elf interface.
Now, about how Reploids operate. If I recall, it's only old-model robots that ran on solar engines. Zero being one of them can operate indefinitely away from a power source due to that. I believe that new reploids (at least z-series) operate on E-crystals, which is some form of crystallized (duh), clean energy, much like a battery. This non-reactive operating system would explain why a lot of the reploid corpses you see scattered in the game (dead resistance from the Z1 chase, dead soldiers in the Z2 residential area raid) are still intact. There is probably an area, like the energy engine in reploids, that could make an explosion, but I'm sure with technology the way it is, those areas would be either non-reactive, or highly protected from rupture. I support the theory that bosses explode because tradition dictates, and in reality, they simply collapse (not very dramatic, huh?) and are later retrieved by Neo Arcadian salvage teams to be repaired (Which explains the rematches). If a boss just exploded and destroyed the body, it would be costly and time-consuming to rebuild a custom mutos-class reploid again from scratch. Back-up bodies seem unlikely since I'm sure Neo Arcadia just can't foresee their top ranked reploids getting bisected by some red colored hunk of junk (joke). So in the end, E-crystals have replaced costly internal reactors as the reploid's source of power. If it wasn't, then why would there even be an energy crisis in the Zero series?