Rockman Perfect Memories

Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: Waifu on October 17, 2010, 03:27:54 PM

Title: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on October 17, 2010, 03:27:54 PM
I do agree that the game needed to be worked on a few places and the levels could had been designed way better but it is quality game and it gave us a proper ending to Zero's story. Or it would be a proper enidng if Capcom didn't screw it up for us by bringing back Zero in X7.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on October 17, 2010, 03:53:28 PM
I don't hate it. In fact I prefer it over X5-4.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 17, 2010, 03:57:19 PM
It was never a "Zero ending" they didnt screw anything up. His ending does not take place right after the game. It takes place some time in the future.
Of course, that is another thing X6 could have specified better.

I like X6. I like it above X5, (though X5 is a nostalgiatrip) and about on par with X4.

Some of the levels were just bad, (theres no excuse for Heatnix's stage) but others were just challenging.

X6. The game that is always challenging no matter how many times you play it.

Unfortunately, most of the 8 bosses are [acid burst] easy. Only Mijinion is any real threat.

People hate it because they need to suck less and be less butthurt about the fact.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on October 17, 2010, 04:10:04 PM
I don't like because it was boring, hard and the boss fights were no fun.
I don't like X5 aswell, X4 is meh...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 17, 2010, 05:22:59 PM
People hate X6 because of it's extreme level designs.

like how X has that "Leap of faith" section in Gate's laboratory

another reason why is that X5 was going to be the last game, but they made X6
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: GP Aznable on October 17, 2010, 05:43:46 PM
Well, it's story might suck but it's a fun game for me.



Too bad that those bosses are pushovers. They could use some more complex patterns.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 17, 2010, 06:48:11 PM
Well, it's story might suck but it's a fun game for me.



Too bad that those bosses are pushovers. They could use some more complex patterns.

Gate can be a real dick.

Him and his stupid energy balls that hit himself
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 17, 2010, 08:31:24 PM
Anybody that thinks X6's story sucks needs to get over the shoddy translation; X6 has what is probably the best story in the series.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on October 17, 2010, 08:51:54 PM
Anybody that thinks X6's story sucks needs to get over the shoddy translation; X6 has what is probably the best story in the series.

Not to mention tons of awesome music.

I love X6, Personally. X5 is OK, I don't really care for X4.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: MrBaryl on October 17, 2010, 08:52:26 PM
Anybody that thinks X6's story sucks needs to get over the shoddy translation; X6 has what is probably the best story in the series.
I wouldn't call it the best but It's fairly nice, also the levels were ultra-challenging (Turtloid, Metal shark, Heatnix, Wolfang, Gate's lab was merciless) plus it has the best music in the X series.
I love X6, beats X4 and is way more fun than X3.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 18, 2010, 03:30:11 AM
X6 is the the deepest of any of the X games before it. we had a REAL Antagonist, with REAL motivations and desires. Gate is one of the better fleshed out villains. And sensei put thought into his design. Wasnt Gate his favorite? he was sad when he found out he wasnt going to be in another game
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 18, 2010, 04:21:01 AM
"One of" his favorites, yes (MMXOCW, page 57).

Of course, that is another thing X6 could have specified better.
Perhaps, but Capcom's guilty of the same thing when it comes to explaining Sigma's demise.  In both X5 and X8 they failed to do so properly.  For that matter they also failed to kill Zero properly in X5.  Boss explosion?  Seriously?  In general I'll take X-series over Zero-series any day, but Inticreates DEFINITELY one-upped them on that one.

X6 is my favorite main-series X game, no doubt.  It fixed a great deal of what was wrong with X5 (parts system, ranking system, player-specific availability of power-ups, linear armor setup, Zero's moronic boss AI), and its core level design is among the deepest the series has seen.  There's a slight touch of "Metroidvania" in it as nearly every stage forks and near every impass has multiple solutions, allowing greater leeway for individual play style.  There's an insane level of power-ups to collect, and at the same time, an equally insane number of enemy mobs to plow through, providing a greater sense of scope to the fight through each stage than any other MegaMan game.  You're powerful enough to take on gigantic masses without having to tip-toe through them, but at the same time can't afford to get too careless, an excellent balance.

At the same time, I can see why the game isn't a crowd-pleaser.  The enemies and levels provide a far more head-scratching experience than MegaMan is known for, and the series in general is already considered difficult by non-fans.  When players are greeted by shoddy localization and some admittedly low-grade boss sprite work, it's easier for them to simply dismiss the game as broken and give up.  The Nightmare System is more often than not an annoyance, particularly in regards to the complete inability to return a stage to its neutral state.

I often refer to X6 as being to Mega Man what the Lost Levels are to Mario.  They reek of low development time, they're tough as nails, they're exceptionally rewarding for those players who are up to the challenge, but they're also not the best way to win over new or less dedicated fans.

I love X6 to death, and I maintain that the majority of players who complain about its allegedly "impossible" segments simply gave up too easily.  I have completely lost count of the number of times I've had to correct people on what the bare minimum requirements are for any given obstacle.  I can see why its not a very approachable game, but at the same time, I'm glad that Capcom threw the (for lack of a better term) "hardcore" fans a bone, because it was freaking awesome.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: OBJECTION MAN on October 18, 2010, 04:21:48 AM
X6 had a great story, but damn were there a ton of level and design blunders. Compressors, inconsistent graphics, rushed localization, not to mention Zero's suicide dive. The list goes on and on.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on October 18, 2010, 04:46:01 AM
I enjoyed the game myself but Blizzard Wolfang's and Blaze Heatnix's levels are just  >_< while Ground Scaravich's level is just  o-O.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: MrBaryl on October 18, 2010, 05:50:41 AM
I enjoyed the game myself but Blizzard Wolfang's and Blaze Heatnix's levels are just  >_< while Ground Scaravich's level is just  o-O.
I think Capcom weakened Heatnix on purpose, I mean his stage was hardcore and I was expecting the boss to be the same.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 18, 2010, 09:14:48 AM
I honestly found the dive to not be a problem. I rarely NEED it anyway, what with Zero's broken Buster and his saber doing a good chunk of damage too.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 18, 2010, 10:14:00 AM
I hate X7, not X6!  8)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Fxeni on October 18, 2010, 01:28:33 PM
I hate X7, not X6!  8)
Unlocking the main character in his own series... such shenanigans.

Anywho, I don't hate X6. Some elements could really stand to have been better though, such as level design, general design (for example armours could have been better, blade in particular) and some control issues (you know exactly what I mean by this).
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 18, 2010, 10:40:48 PM
A couple of X6 flaws:

Necroposting Sigma  8D (sorry I just had to)
Zero's ultra cheap Z Buster
Blizard Wolfang's stage is icy hell
Heat Pheonix's stage is a survival course (literally)
Gate's weakness is stupid
Heat Pheonix's weakness is stupid
Ground Scravich is easy to kill
Level designs are ridicously hard
Shield shelldon's stage is fairly easy
Nightmare Zero is hard to kill with armor less X
Rock beats Fire for some reason  o~O
X's gate stage has the "leap of faith"
"leap of faith" is impossible with shadow and armor less X

heres a tip:

If you were playing as Armorless X (for some reason) to pass that "leap of faith" section, dash jump off the wall, them use Blaze Saber, then switch To Ground Dash and repeat until you get to the other side.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hiryu on October 18, 2010, 11:13:41 PM
This is one of the Megaman games I will most likely not play again. It's not bad, but Infinity Flea is a pain to kill, and the 1st and 2nd gate stages are annoying to get through. This makes me hesistant to play it again.

EDIT: Oh yea, and Metal Shark Player's stage.  >_<  -AC
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 18, 2010, 11:32:12 PM
Why are we making up names for the Irregulars?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: UrielManX7 on October 18, 2010, 11:32:19 PM
I think the main reason above all is its difficulty, most people dont enjoy a game if it beats the [parasitic bomb] out of them.
The game its ok but i think X5 has a better story (in fact the best ending of all megaman games).
Personally my favorite X game is X3  XD.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: ViperAcidZX on October 18, 2010, 11:45:43 PM
A couple of X6 flaws:

Necroposting Sigma  8D (sorry I just had to)
Zero's ultra cheap Z Buster
Blizard Wolfang's stage is icy hell
Heat Pheonix's stage is a survival course (literally)
Gate's weakness is stupid
Heat Pheonix's weakness is stupid
Ground Scravich is easy to kill
Level designs are ridicously hard
Shield shelldon's stage is fairly easy
Nightmare Zero is hard to kill with armor less X
Rock beats Fire for some reason  o~O
X's gate stage has the "leap of faith"
"leap of faith" is impossible with shadow and armor less X

Rock beats fire in Pokemon. lol? Zero's Gate stage was the worst for me (or whichever has Metal Shark Player's X Pancake Maker of Death) I would have to agree that Ground Scravich is pathetic, even on Extreme mode. Commander Yanmark is pretty easy, too (expect in Extreme mode where he as this danmaku / bullet hell attack that's almost impossible for me to dodge). Gate will always be a punk-ass in the X series for me because of weakness. (Seriously, why I can't I just spam Nova Strike with Ultimate Armor and get it over with?)

Hey, you forgot Necroposting Dynamo.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Gaia on October 18, 2010, 11:58:57 PM
Infinity Flea

Huh, I thought he was a mininopo-whatever he was. The more you know.

I had no problem with Infinity's stage, people were being babies about it because of the huge gaps and wires you had to cross. But the nightmares made it annoying, I wish there was a gameshark or somethin' to have them rescued already before the start of the stage. >.>

Heatnix's was more of trial-n'-error, But alas, himself, the sub-bosses, and the enemies were easy to avoid. Try doing this in Web Spider's stage in X4 (I had NO freaking clue to trigger Spidey's weakness button when Twin Slasher connects, arrgh).

Ground Scarvitch: Annoying stage, dissapointing boss battle, but eh.

Well, the oppisite can be said for Wolfang without his weakness weapon.

Others are BLAH. Though, the music's badass, especially the Japanese rock they offered us. Plus it was a good break from..well.. you know (had more annoyances with X4 than X5 and X6, mainly the boss' large attacks)..  -u-'

Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 19, 2010, 01:36:38 AM
I honestly found the dive to not be a problem. I rarely NEED it anyway, what with Zero's broken Buster and his saber doing a good chunk of damage too.
It's less a matter of needing it and more a matter of activating it when you don't want to, particularly when trying to do battle from wires.  But yeah, you can just skip Skaravich if you're not as obsessive-compulsive as me; it's not as if his weapon is particularly useful.

But this is true: The Z-Buster and the Ensuizan are both freaking awesome.  Those two weapons alone can annihilate near anything.

Unlocking the main character in his own series... such shenanigans.
Tell that to ZX Advent.  At least in X7 you actually do get to play as X, as opposed to having Axl transform into X.

He's also insanely powerful, so there is some justification to his delayed entry.  Being unavoidable and carrying over into New Game Plus, I consider the whole thing a nonissue.  X's dialogue in X7 disturbs me far more than his availability could ever hope to.

A couple of X6 flaws:

Necroposting Sigma  8D (sorry I just had to)
Zero's ultra cheap Z Buster
Blizard Wolfang's stage is icy hell
Heat Pheonix's stage is a survival course (literally)
Gate's weakness is stupid
Heat Pheonix's weakness is stupid
Ground Scravich is easy to kill
Level designs are ridicously hard
Shield shelldon's stage is fairly easy
Nightmare Zero is hard to kill with armor less X
Rock beats Fire for some reason  o~O
X's gate stage has the "leap of faith"
"leap of faith" is impossible with shadow and armor less X
I find it refreshing to kick the baddie while he's down.
This is a bad thing?
You're surprised to see ice in an ice boss's stage?
Stop sucking.
Stop sucking.
And a scissors/boomerang combo defeating electricity makes any more sense?
Many games have their Top Man.
Stop sucking.
There is no pleasing you.
You have redefined "suck." (Seriously, NIGHTMARE ZERO?!!)
Redundant.
Stop sucking.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 19, 2010, 01:54:37 AM
Tell that to ZX Advent.  At least in X7 you actually do get to play as X, as opposed to having Axl transform into X.

He's also insanely powerful, so there is some justification to his delayed entry.  Being unavoidable and carrying over into New Game Plus, I consider the whole thing a nonissue.  X's dialogue in X7 disturbs me far more than his availability could ever hope to.

X isn't the main character in the ZX series, from my understanding. Vent & Aile are, followed by Grey & Ashe.

Insane power does not justify having to unlock him or use save data. Blues is insanely powerful in MM:PU and you have to unlock him, but he is not the main character of the series (even though he should be XD). Not to mention, you unlock him outside of the actual game, in challenges or by the later download if you do it the pussy way. It's an issue of principle. Stupid, yes, considering it's a video game. However, after actually being forced to play the game, I see that I missed absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: borockman on October 19, 2010, 02:06:18 AM
I actually like X6 a lot. I never really care about the story (it's in Japanese and I wasn't good with English at that time).

But the music is the main thing I love about it, especially the ending credit song.



([tornado fang] I just love this song I dunno why)


... Also Shadow armor FTW.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 19, 2010, 02:08:55 AM
I'm partial to The Answer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-4ZiHdjcx0) myself.  Actually, I like both of the X6 openers, but Soul Eraser commercials may have swayed me a bit. 8)

X isn't the main character in the ZX series, from my understanding. Vent & Aile are, followed by Grey & Ashe.
Point missed.

I was referring to the title character.  X is to the X-series as Model ZX is to the ZX series.  And we have a ZX game in which you cannot, EVER, play as MegaMan Model ZX.  You can only A-Trans it.  Not acceptable.

I think Advent's a great game, but I'm just saying, the title/player conflict is a lot worse there than in X7.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 19, 2010, 02:40:30 AM
Without Z saber
I said Icy hell because.... its hell but icy
Cheap Z-buster is just a little "flaw" its able to kill necro sigma is 6 hits

I dont suck....  :(

and I suppose you play better?   -_-
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Solar on October 19, 2010, 02:45:13 AM
He beats the whole game with unarmored X, so I'd say yes.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 19, 2010, 04:20:21 AM
*post*

heres a tip:

If you were playing as Armorless X (for some reason) to pass that "leap of faith" section, dash jump off the wall, them use Blaze Saber, then switch To Ground Dash and repeat until you get to the other side.

How is a broken buster a BAD thing? it has increased range and power, and at least doesnt re-use X4's stock charge sprite for the shot. In a game like X6, having an "unlockable" Zero with broken moves is just the way it is. you can choose to take your time and learn the layouts and strategize with X, making the final victory that much more sweet, Or fight Nightmare Zero, Unlock Zero, and just tank through the game as him with Ensuizan and the Z buster. Not to mention his saber cancel works MUCH better with his first slash being an across horizontal sweeping slash as opposed to his previous (and X's) overhead swing.
Quote
Cheap Z-buster is just a little "flaw" its able to kill necro sigma is 6 hits
His saber alone can kill Sigma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3tKRo1T604) Though... Not that it takes much to begin with (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvB1cyYqICU)

Also, Really? Nightmare Zero? Hard? Someone missed the memo on his weakness and abusable AI.
Quote
Without Z saber
Hes still easy. Abusable AI and pretty simple, predictable pattern. The most random thing he will do is that buster spazz move.
Gate's weakness was actually really innovative. he's so powerful that you cannot damage him- So do the next best thing- use his own weapons against him!

the rock -> Fire thing is actually very easy to understand. Rock could be considered an "earth" type element. And as we all know, you can smother fires with dirt/sand.

Sheldon's stage is only a joke if you ignore the alternate route. Which... Is still [acid burst] easy, but at least is closer to typical stage length.

Also, heres a tip to counter your tip. You dont need Heatnix's weapon for that. Not even an armor either. Just Jumper. Do you never pay attention to Hypershell constantly mentioning the fact?


Quote
I dont suck....  :(

and I suppose you play better?   -_-
your complaints say otherwise.

Ihe sure can. And Im pretty certain i can too. X6 is pretty easy.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 19, 2010, 04:54:47 AM
Point missed.

I was referring to the title character.  X is to the X-series as Model ZX is to the ZX series.  And we have a ZX game in which you cannot, EVER, play as MegaMan Model ZX.  You can only A-Trans it.  Not acceptable.

I think Advent's a great game, but I'm just saying, the title/player conflict is a lot worse there than in X7.

If that's your point, there's a flaw.

The second game is called ZXA, not ZX2. With the A there, it still works, if you are going by title.

Also, there's a total difference. X is the main character of the series. He is the main protagonist. Model ZX is not to the ZX series as X is to the X series, because Model ZX is not the protagonist. Vent & Aile are, and in ZXA, Grey & Ashe are. It's similar to Metroid, in which you go through the game unlocking parts & weapons of Samus' suit. But you don't have to unlock Samus herself.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Rad Lionheart on October 19, 2010, 05:10:30 AM
I'm only just noticing this topic now, and going by the title without reading the first post or any other post.

I don't know a lot of people who hate X6, personally it's one of my preferred X titles.
So where all the haters at?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 19, 2010, 05:44:54 AM
If that's your point, there's a flaw.

The second game is called ZXA, not ZX2. With the A there, it still works, if you are going by title.
Except there is no "Model (A)dvent"

Still it carries the ZX name, and one expects to PLAY as ZX, not a copy.

Quote
Also, there's a total difference. X is the main character of the series. He is the main protagonist. Model ZX is not to the ZX series as X is to the X series, because Model ZX is not the protagonist. Vent & Aile are, and in ZXA, Grey & Ashe are. It's similar to Metroid, in which you go through the game unlocking parts & weapons of Samus' suit. But you don't have to unlock Samus herself.
Think of it this way- like Samus without the arm cannon. Model ZX is the titular Model, I should be able to play it, not copy it.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Mirby on October 19, 2010, 05:47:21 AM
There is a Model A though, just like there was Model ZX in ZX.

That, and I think Advent was more referring to the story than the actual model.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 19, 2010, 06:01:18 AM
Except there is no "Model (A)dvent"

Still it carries the ZX name, and one expects to PLAY as ZX, not a copy.

Fair enough about the Advent thing. My apologies.

Quote
Think of it this way- like Samus without the arm cannon. Model ZX is the titular Model, I should be able to play it, not copy it.

My point was more about characters. Model ZX is not the main character. It is the main Model, main R.O.C.K. ON, but it is not the main character. My point still stands. You could feasibly make a Metroid game in which you play as Zero Suit Samus, and play without the Arm Cannon. I'm not saying it would be good, or even that smart of a move (although I think the drooling fans would probably love it anyway), but I'd still find it more acceptable than being forced to play as someone completely different to unlock Samus herself, Suit or no Suit.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 19, 2010, 06:30:09 AM
I was originally going to say "Like a metroid game without metroids"... but... its not like that isnt too strange.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on October 19, 2010, 06:51:14 AM
Well, even in Metroid Fusion they had to put the metroids somewhere :D
Also, I'm surprised that this many people like that game...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 19, 2010, 10:44:16 PM
Nightmare Zero spasms are funny  >0<

He's already dead! what should I do? I cant stop!  ;^;
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 20, 2010, 02:37:38 AM
The second game is called ZXA, not ZX2. With the A there, it still works, if you are going by title.
So what I'm hearing then is that such a maneuver would have been perfectly acceptable in Rockman X Cyber Mission?

Nope, not buying that.  "Advent" in "ZX Advent" has no character ties (Flame beat me to that particular punch).

And besides, "ZXA" over "ZX2" means one thing and one thing only: Marketing.  Somebody at Capcom thought that forgoing the numbered sequel would make the game less intimidating to newbies; that's pretty much it.

Quote
Also, there's a total difference. X is the main character of the series. He is the main protagonist. Model ZX is not to the ZX series as X is to the X series, because Model ZX is not the protagonist. Vent & Aile are, and in ZXA, Grey & Ashe are.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)

You're adding ambiguity where I specified otherwise.  "Model" can refer to a character or a Biometal, but "MegaMan" specifically denotes the character.  My previous post read, "...you cannot, ever, play as MegaMan Model ZX."

"Vent and Aile *ARE* "MegaMan Model ZX", term coined by Prometheus.  He continues to refer to them as such throughout ZX's lategame as well as the Gigamix drama.  In light of that fact, Vent and Aile remain the title protagonists.  The name could be passed on, yes, but that's an irrelevant hypothetical scenario; it never actually happened.  Grey and Ashe never adopted that title.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: OBJECTION MAN on October 20, 2010, 02:40:11 AM
How is a broken buster a BAD thing? it has increased range and power, and at least doesnt re-use X4's stock charge sprite for the shot.

(http://www.court-records.net/rips/bubble-objection.gif)

Maybe to the untrained eye there would be no noticeable difference. True, the shots both use a blue base with a golden shock wave running along the outside, but they're entirely different sprites!

(http://www.court-records.net/rips/bubble-takethat.gif)

http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/files/X/X4/Wep/x4StockChargeBusterShots.png
http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/files/X/X5/WepZ/x5zerobuster.gif

I think this says it all. Zero's X5 buster shot is a lot smaller. It is clear they didn't reuse any portion of the stock shot for Zero's buster!
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 20, 2010, 02:47:36 AM
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)

Double-check your sheets, Objection Man.  While the shots themselves are unique, the "discharge" effect is very much copy/pasted from the Stock Charge.  In the X5 Z-Buster sheet, compare the first five frames, as well as the rings on the sixth (that's actually two objects overlapping, I believe), to X's equivalents; they're identical.

Same thing happens across a great many of X's armors (pretty much all but Blade and the aforementioned Stock Charge), but we expect that from him since it's the same character merely using different upgrades.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: OBJECTION MAN on October 20, 2010, 02:51:22 AM
Bad choice of words. OK, they didn't reuse the entire thing. Fixed.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 20, 2010, 05:04:37 AM
So what I'm hearing then is that such a maneuver would have been perfectly acceptable in Rockman X Cyber Mission?

Nope, not buying that.  "Advent" in "ZX Advent" has no character ties (Flame beat me to that particular punch).

And besides, "ZXA" over "ZX2" means one thing and one thing only: Marketing.  Somebody at Capcom thought that forgoing the numbered sequel would make the game less intimidating to newbies; that's pretty much it.

Could've sworn I already admitted my error with ZXA... LOL, and as for what you're hearing, I have NO idea, cause judging by the Cyber Mission post, you're not listening at all. You brought up the title thing with ZX. I have CLEARLY stated time and time again that I find it unacceptable for X, the main character of his series, having to be unlocked in his own series. So why you would think I'd find it acceptable in Rockman X Cyber Mission is mindboggling, title or not.

Quote
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)

You're adding ambiguity where I specified otherwise.  "Model" can refer to a character or a Biometal, but "MegaMan" specifically denotes the character.  My previous post read, "...you cannot, ever, play as MegaMan Model ZX."

"Vent and Aile *ARE* "MegaMan Model ZX", term coined by Prometheus.  He continues to refer to them as such throughout ZX's lategame as well as the Gigamix drama.  In light of that fact, Vent and Aile remain the title protagonists.  The name could be passed on, yes, but that's an irrelevant hypothetical scenario; it never actually happened.  Grey and Ashe never adopted that title.

LoL, I'm adding ambiguity? NOW you've specified this fact with the characters. Before you didn't, and just said that one thing.

However, yes. If this is the case with the characters, then yes, it is bad to a degree. Be that as it may, the X7 scenario is still worse, IMO. ZXA is still only the second game in the series, and from what I understand, despite the title, Grey/Ashe, via Model A, is the main protagonist of this game. I don't know much about the ZXA storyline, so if I'm wrong then I apologize. However, it's not like this is that deep into the series, like say the 7th-9th game, in which it's already been clearly established early on that X is the main character. For all we know with the future ZX games, they'll have new protagonists, for the series is still young.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 20, 2010, 05:09:06 AM
Actually, given that its only the second game and already its happening- id say that makes it a bit worse than X7, where its already 7 games in that they tried it.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 20, 2010, 05:14:57 AM
This is why I said, IMO. It just my own personal opinion. I think it's worse to do it with established characters in a long running series with many, many games, rather than characters only one game in. Like I've said before, to me, it's the equivalent of doing it with Samus in the Metroid series.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hiryu on October 20, 2010, 06:26:53 AM
Huh, I thought he was a mininopo-whatever he was. The more you know.

I think that's correct too. I called him Infinity Flea because I read it in a FAQ once, and people say that he's a water flea.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 20, 2010, 07:21:22 PM
he might be one, but its not his name. Not even the Japanese name.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Mirby on October 20, 2010, 07:33:03 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, aren't all of X6's Mavericks named the same in the US as in Japan?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 20, 2010, 07:41:00 PM
I thought the X6 names were pretty cool actually.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 20, 2010, 07:47:40 PM
yeah, they are the same in both, with only one or two differences with letters.

(Im certain Metal Shark Player was SUPPOSED to an should have been brought over as Prayer, due to his ability to revive dead Mavericks, but switched because of the LOL R=L in JAPAN thing.)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 20, 2010, 08:03:13 PM
Quote
"Vent and Aile *ARE* "MegaMan Model ZX"

Yes, they are Rockman Model ZX, but no, they are not Rockman ZX, much like Zero isn't Rockman Zero. Besides, the second title in the ZX-series is named Advent for a reason: it is not ZX2 and was never advertised as such. It is simply another title in the setting established in ZX; therefore it can take a different route and exclude Rockman Model ZX from the role of main character.

Quote
in which it's already been clearly established early on that X is the main character.

Since when have you been under the mistaken assumption that X is the main character and Zero isn't?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 20, 2010, 08:05:31 PM
Since when have you been under the mistaken assumption that X is the main character and Zero isn't?

LoL, well the SNES games mainly. And I suppose X6? XD
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 20, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
X6 was simply the first game in which you had to unlock the main character in his own series.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on October 20, 2010, 10:40:55 PM
I thought that was X7...Oh you mean Zero
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 20, 2010, 10:41:41 PM
X6 was simply the first game in which you had to unlock the main character in his own series.

LoL, then I stand corrected! XD
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 20, 2010, 10:53:05 PM
X6 was simply the first game in which you had to unlock the main character in his own series.

Zero doesnt own the X series

unless you mean X7 and X
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 21, 2010, 01:49:48 AM
Zero doesnt own the X series

X4-6 seems to want to say otherwise...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Acid on October 21, 2010, 01:56:36 AM
X4-6 seems to want to say otherwise...

X4-X6 aren't the whole series.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 21, 2010, 02:06:43 AM
no, but they are incredibly Zero-centric. In fact- Zero was always the "spotlight stealer" since X1, as the "Cool character who steals the good scenes"! So technically it is as much his as it is X's. Moreso since he became playable in X4. (X3 doesnt count)

Hell, X7 has him trying to one up X by having X unlockable and Zero as the main playable character. (with Axl as the other option)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on October 21, 2010, 02:16:24 AM
no, but they are incredibly Zero-centric. In fact- Zero was always the "spotlight stealer" since X1, as the "Cool character who steals the good scenes"! So technically it is as much his as it is X's. Moreso since he became playable in X4. (X3 doesnt count)

Hell, X7 has him trying to one up X by having X unlockable and Zero as the main playable character. (with Axl as the other option)

.........LoL

Yeah, I think I'm done here.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Gotham Ranger on October 21, 2010, 02:47:35 AM
What? People liked X6? Dear god, why?

I used to like it. I honestly did. When I first got the chance to play it way back when after borrowing it from a friend, it was frustrating but I was able to enjoy it.

Then I got older, time passed, and I realised how terrible the whole Nightmare Zero thing is. In the grand scheme of things, Nightmare Zero was useless and if he was never in the game, very little would have ever changed for the story. Also, regarding the story, I don't wanna hear any "well it was badly translated" stuff. Doesn't change the fact the story we got was still meh and affects the game.

Then, I tried playing it again last year on X Collection. And.. I.. What? Either I had more patience 6 or 7 years ago than I do now or this game really, really loves to kick you in the balls. I actually just stopped playing X Collection despite beating each and every other game on there. I really should finish the game but trying to beat Heatnix's bullshit level just tries my patience way too much.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on October 21, 2010, 02:51:08 AM
no, but they are incredibly Zero-centric. In fact- Zero was always the "spotlight stealer" since X1, as the "Cool character who steals the good scenes"! So technically it is as much his as it is X's. Moreso since he became playable in X4. (X3 doesnt count)

Hell, X7 has him trying to one up X by having X unlockable and Zero as the main playable character. (with Axl as the other option)

Zero was going to be the main character originally butr you know what happened, I guess it is a subconscious thing.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 21, 2010, 03:00:07 AM
no, but they are incredibly Zero-centric. In fact- Zero was always the "spotlight stealer" since X1, as the "Cool character who steals the good scenes"! So technically it is as much his as it is X's. Moreso since he became playable in X4. (X3 doesnt count)

Hell, X7 has him trying to one up X by having X unlockable and Zero as the main playable character. (with Axl as the other option)

Naw, X just became a pussy in X7 whining over peace and stuff.

But in X8 he acts like his X7 breakdown didnt happen
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 21, 2010, 03:07:41 AM
That's not really true.  X spazzes out a bit after the first Maverick in X8, and suffers a serious loss of resolve both during and after the Lumine battle.  It's just that Zero and Axl are working to keep X's head on straight.

Yes, they are Rockman Model ZX, but no, they are not Rockman ZX, much like Zero isn't Rockman Zero.  Besides, the second title in the ZX-series is named Advent for a reason: it is not ZX2 and was never advertised as such. It is simply another title in the setting established in ZX; therefore it can take a different route and exclude Rockman Model ZX from the role of main character.
I disagree.

You are being overly literal on the title.  There is no "Live Metal Model ZX", there is only "Rockman Model ZX".  So "ZX" in and of itself, can refer only to that.

The second game is not "Rockman Advent", it is "Rockman ZX Advent".  Whether or not the game is titled "ZX 2" is irrelevant; no matter what you call it, it is the second game of the ZX series.  And it was always advertised as that.

This is why I said, IMO. It just my own personal opinion. I think it's worse to do it with established characters in a long running series with many, many games, rather than characters only one game in. Like I've said before, to me, it's the equivalent of doing it with Samus in the Metroid series.
I dunno, I think a game where you start as Rundas and unlock a Hyper Beam wielding engine of destruction Samus would be pretty damn badass.

Could've sworn I already admitted my error with ZXA... LOL, and as for what you're hearing, I have NO idea, cause judging by the Cyber Mission post, you're not listening at all. You brought up the title thing with ZX. I have CLEARLY stated time and time again that I find it unacceptable for X, the main character of his series, having to be unlocked in his own series. So why you would think I'd find it acceptable in Rockman X Cyber Mission is mindboggling, title or not.
Because you claimed that tacking on an additional label, "Advent" justifies ignoring previous character references in the title.

You admitted your error but the lengths to which those implications extend were not specified, plus I prefer to add my own input on a discussion I'm already part of, rather than rely solely on Flame (not to discourage others jumping in; this is a community after all).  However, since you and Flame already dove into that (which I acknowledged in my previous post, mind you), I kept that segment short.

LoL, I'm adding ambiguity? NOW you've specified this fact with the characters. Before you didn't, and just said that one thing.
...
My previous post read, "...you cannot, ever, play as MegaMan Model ZX."
You are either unfamiliar with ZX series terminology or you are not paying attention.

Zero doesnt own the X series
Considering that Inafune's idea of "finality" in the X-series is to simply kill Zero, that is HIGHLY debatable.  The game outright states that a still-off-screen character wants X dead, for crying out loud.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 21, 2010, 03:25:39 AM
Quote
I dunno, I think a game where you start as Rundas and unlock a Hyper Beam wielding engine of destruction Samus would be pretty damn badass.

Actually, the more I think about it, Metroid is not named after Samus, but the mainstay energy sucking enemies.

Its about the Metroids. Samus just happens to be the protagonist that has a history with their makers. (both of them, Chozo and Pirates) and the (so far) only one who can do something like ridding an entire planet of the species.

So a Metroid game where Samus is not the main focus is absolutely plausible, (and I would TOTALLY support a game with Rundas) as opposed to the MEGA MAN series, where the focus of the series as stated by the title, is about Mega Man.

Also, just thought it was a funny coincidence- On X9.com, there is more or less this same exact thread, but about Megaman 8.
http://megamanx9.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3010-looking-back-at-mm8/
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 21, 2010, 03:38:03 AM
Actually, the more I think about it, Metroid is not named after Samus, but the mainstay energy sucking enemies.
Obviously true.  But then, nobody brought that up during Prime Hunters.  *shrugs*

Quote
http://megamanx9.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3010-looking-back-at-mm8/
As much as I love X6 I can see why people may dislike it, but I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why anyone in their right mind would hate MM8.  It's my third favorite Classic-series game after 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Acid on October 21, 2010, 03:47:21 AM
And I don't get how anyone can dislike MM7.

Just wanted to throw that in.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Irgendein on October 21, 2010, 03:48:55 AM
I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why anyone in their right mind would hate MM8.
Nostalgiafags that don't like any of the new gameplay elements or changes, and prefer the same ol' MM2-style crap.

Edit: Same goes for 7
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 21, 2010, 06:23:39 AM
And I don't get how anyone can dislike MM7.

Just wanted to throw that in.
I dont hate 7 itself, I just hate Rock's sprite. Blame bad sprite comics. Bob and George the primary offender.

Nostalgiafags that don't like any of the new gameplay elements or changes, and prefer the same ol' MM2-style crap.

Also this.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Gaia on October 21, 2010, 07:29:21 PM
I dont hate 7 itself, I just hate Rock's sprite. Blame bad sprite comics. Bob and George the primary offender.
Also this.

Also happens to be those who poorly edit Roll's head onto other's body sprites. eeuugh. Why can't we see more like Soviet Commando quality?

But yeah, I found X6 and Prinny to be hard, but that didin't stop me. That didin't stop Capcom and NIS for including a mode for the babies that complained about the difficulty in their respective sequels ("easy mode" in the form of Axl, and "Baby"/[acid burst] easy mode) either.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 21, 2010, 11:45:18 PM
Quote
The second game is not "Rockman Advent", it is "Rockman ZX Advent".  Whether or not the game is titled "ZX 2" is irrelevant; no matter what you call it, it is the second game of the ZX series.  And it was always advertised as that.

To me, not being named "2", but instead "Advent" for such a deviation is the best option. It's much less of outrage than having to unlock the titular character in a game numbered "7". Furthermore, the choice of a game's main character should not be mandated by the series' title; if done in good taste, anybody could be a main character.

Overall, I feel ZX is entirely free to take on any number of characters that are not Vent/Aile Aile as the main. As long as there is a purpose to the "ZX" name in the end. After all, there's after all no telling where the series will take us, and what significance the term "ZX" will have in the end. We already established that livemetals are not limited to a single chosen one, and we already separated Model Z from Model X. Who will become Rockman ZX at the end of the series is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 22, 2010, 01:05:54 AM
And I don't get how anyone can dislike MM7.


A cool [Top Spin] named Brentalfloss said so, So everbody said that they hate MM7
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: MrBaryl on October 22, 2010, 01:53:02 AM
Quote
A cool [Top Spin] named Brentalfloss said so, So everbody said that they hate MM7

A better excuse to flame the game is "The graphics affect gameplay, I always fail a jump because it takes a eternity to change the frame!"
Wuss.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 22, 2010, 01:57:25 AM
You cant even Cancel the slide with a Jump over a gap without dying in Megaman 7
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on October 22, 2010, 02:38:52 AM
Yeah you can.

While I'm here, I'll chime in that both MM7 and MMX6 are awesome games.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Acid on October 22, 2010, 02:40:08 AM
I think I will now update my post and state that I loved every MM game I played so far. I did not hate a single one.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 22, 2010, 02:54:09 AM
All of the Megaman games are good.

Except Rockman and Forte 2
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: MrBaryl on October 22, 2010, 03:56:19 AM
All of the Megaman games are good.

Except Rockman and Forte 2

If it wasn't Quint X and or the fact that the jackhammer is in the game, R-shadow would have been a decent enemie.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Gotham Ranger on October 22, 2010, 09:56:10 AM
I think I will now update my post and state that I loved every MM game I played so far. I did not hate a single one.
Same.

Except Rockman & Forte 2.

And maybe X6.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 22, 2010, 02:06:56 PM
I think Acid was talking about the classic games

I didnt like command mission. the X series needed to end at X8
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 22, 2010, 03:02:36 PM
Im still waiting for the impossible Command Mission 2. ;__;

I REALLy like how they handled an X RPG. I think they did a great job.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Acid on October 22, 2010, 04:25:32 PM
I think Acid was talking about the classic games

No. MM games in general.

I loved the ones I played.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on October 22, 2010, 06:05:39 PM
No. MM games in general.

I loved the ones I played.

oh
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 22, 2010, 06:43:10 PM
Overall, I feel ZX is entirely free to take on any number of characters that are not Vent/Aile Aile as the main. As long as there is a purpose to the "ZX" name in the end.
My point: I do not consider one A-Trans among 12 others to be adequate purpose.

During Advent, Vent/Aile are still MegaMan Model ZX.  And as I already stated earlier, I am aware that any other Chosen One *COULD* assume that title, but the fact remains that nobody else actually did.

X *could* jump onto the field in the beginning of X7.  He *didn't*.  The issue is what is, not what may be.

Nostalgiafags that don't like any of the new gameplay elements or changes, and prefer the same ol' MM2-style crap.

Edit: Same goes for 7
I don't even understand that much.  I get it for 7, I get it for MM&B.  But to me, 8 is a lot closer to the "nostalgic trifecta" of 1-3 than most other titles, even certain NES-styled ones (barring the obvious physics and character/screen size ratio differences).  Sans Duo, the use of post-MM3 characters is kept to a minimum.  There are no more Adapters, the "new" power-ups are both optional and neatly segregated, Rush returns to the role of main-yet-unmerged support unit, his support is rewarded via combat prizes rather than fetch-quests, and you have fully mobile Rush Jet for the first time since 3.

Plus, the Arrow Shot kinda lends that Contra Spread Gun charm as well. 8)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Acid on October 22, 2010, 06:49:43 PM
Nothing will ever beat the arrow from MM5.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on October 22, 2010, 06:55:43 PM
The thing was more useful in Darkwing duck :D.
I don't hate any game. The fact that I don't like X5, X6 RnF 2 and World 2 doesn't mean that I hate them.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 22, 2010, 06:57:39 PM
A wise man, you are. :cookie:
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 22, 2010, 07:26:28 PM
Quote
My point: I do not consider one A-Trans among 12 others to be adequate purpose.

During Advent, Vent/Aile are still MegaMan Model ZX.  And as I already stated earlier, I am aware that any other Chosen One *COULD* assume that title, but the fact remains that nobody else actually did.

X *could* jump onto the field in the beginning of X7.  He *didn't*.  The issue is what is, not what may be.

Except ZXA is still not a numbered title. It is simply another game in the series that that continues the story. This is a crucial point; if not numbered, the game's title does not carry all the expectations of its predecessor and thus can be solely in reference to which "series" it falls under, and not to the protagonist the series is named after.

From what I can see, by your logic, you can't make someone else the protagonist of a single arc just because someone else's name is in the title. This is simply not true. A short deviation is entirely justifiable as long as the actual main character returns to the spotlight when the arc is over.

ZXA to me, is a set up game, just like Rockman Zero 2 was. If Rockman Model ZX returns as the main protagonist in ZX2, then what's the problem? The titular gameplay was never removed and the story has greatly benefited from taking a less obvious course.

All in all, I'd much prefer ZXA's change of protagonist over the X-series'; they were open about the change, they never told us otherwise. Meanwhile the X-series stealthily tried to sneak in both Axl and Zero, whilst still keeping up the charade that X was supposed to be the main character.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 22, 2010, 11:13:06 PM
Except ZXA is still not a numbered title.
Irrelevant, it is still the ZX series.

How long do you think the RPM community is going to put up with us repeating ourselves?

Quote
This is a crucial point; if not numbered, the game's title does not carry all the expectations of its predecessor and thus can be solely in reference to which "series" it falls under, and not to the protagonist the series is named after.
That is an exceptionally selective bit of logic which could *EASILY* be turned around.  You claim forgoing numbered sequels justifies forsaking the protagonists so long as it otherwise retains series staples.  MegaMan X Command Mission did the complete opposite.

Quote
From what I can see, by your logic, you can't make someone else the protagonist of a single arc just because someone else's name is in the title.  This is simply not true. A short deviation is entirely justifiable as long as the actual main character returns to the spotlight when the arc is over.
NEVER did I say that.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth in the future.

You failed to take heed of the difference in how we perceive Advent.  I've already told you quite a while ago that I see no relevance in the game's title lacking a number, and just because you can explain your rationale for believing otherwise to us, does not mean that I agree with it.  You do nobody any favors by arguing under such an assumption.

ZX Advent is not a "short deviation".  It is literally half the series at this point, as it has been for the last 3 years.  Your entire argument is based on the premise that Advent is a side game, but that distinction cannot be made when the series has no numbered sequels to distinguish Advent from in the first place.  Your position is based solely on a hypothetical scenario.

There is no game titled ZX2.  There are no numbered ZX sequels, at all.  The ONLY reason ZXA is not ZX2 is IF a future title proclaims to be ZX2.  Whether or not that will actually happen is not a given.  (Would you fault someone for referring to Armored Core: Project Phantasma and Armored Core: Master of Arena as direct sequels before Armored Core 2 had ever been announced?)

Quote
All in all, I'd much prefer ZXA's change of protagonist over the X-series'; they were open about the change, they never told us otherwise. Meanwhile the X-series stealthily tried to sneak in both Axl and Zero, whilst still keeping up the charade that X was supposed to be the main character.
It's called a "costar".  And if Axl and Zero appear more interesting it's because they have more of a story to tell.  Even in those X-series games which feature no other playable characters, we don't really learn much about X.  Hell, it'd be fairly easy to argue that we've received greater insight into X's character from those games which featured multiple player characters.

I will not deny that X4 and X7 both shafted X in terms of cutscene time.  However, he remains both playable and unavoidable in every X-series title.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on October 22, 2010, 11:57:18 PM
Quote
That is an exceptionally selective bit of logic which could *EASILY* be turned around.  You claim forgoing numbered sequels justifies forsaking the protagonists so long as it otherwise retains series staples.  MegaMan X Command Mission did the complete opposite.

I don't mind if you turn it around, because we do not fault XCM for being a different genre. So why fault Advent for changing its protagonists?

Quote
Irrelevant, it is still the ZX series.

The setting of Command Mission is still RockmanX, the setting of Advent is still RockmanZX. Despite genre and protagonist differences. Why must Capcom avoid marketing the ZX name with Advent when it's so obviously part of that series in both setting and gameplay? If anything, the one time they chose not to carry the series name with a new protagonist, they really should have for marketing reasons.

Quote
ZX Advent is not a "short deviation".  It is literally half the series at this point, as it has been for the last 3 years.  Your entire argument is based on the premise that Advent is a side game, but that distinction cannot be made when the series has no numbered sequels to distinguish Advent from in the first place.  Your position is based solely on a hypothetical scenario.

ZXA had no choice but to devote the entire game to the new protagonists for the sake of both plotline and gameplay. That no sequel as of yet exists is no fault of ZXA. With the continuation of the series' story having been conceptualized and revealed to us, Advent is but one step in a greater plan; a plan we cannot begin to grasp. Saying that ZXA is half the series is like saying the DASH series ended with a cliffhanger that will never be resolved. You should fault neither until the series is truly over; time will show if this deviation was truly necessary. We're getting DASH3, so anything is possible nowadays, even ZX2, 3 or whatever.

Quote
And if Axl and Zero appear more interesting it's because they have more of a story to tell.  Even in those X-series games which feature no other playable characters, we don't really learn much about X.  Hell, it'd be fairly easy to argue that we've received greater insight into X's character from those games which featured multiple player characters.

It is not that X does not have more of a story to tell, it is simply that they chose no to tell it. Both Irregular Hunter X and Rockman Zero confirm this. Shifting the focus to Axl and Zero whilst shafting X was their conscious choice.

Not that that is necessarily bad, I don't even fault X7 for it, considering that it was needed for the plot. But marketing as a direct sequel to X6 was just bad; they really should have been more open and clear about these kind of deviations.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on October 23, 2010, 05:05:52 AM
I don't mind if you turn it around, because we do not fault XCM for being a different genre. So why fault Advent for changing its protagonists?
Yes, but XCM, despite not being a numbered sequel, still retains the same protagonists.  One could arguably say that it does a better job of highlighting the title character than the main series.

My point is that you were implying a rather rigid standard as to naming trends where none exists.

Quote
ZXA had no choice but to devote the entire game to the new protagonists for the sake of both plotline and gameplay.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
Programming minor stage tweaks based on character selection is a fairly simple and well-established task in gaming.  And quite frankly I think a "what-if" scenario of MegaMan Model ZX challenging Albert would be a highly valuable one; more so than Vile in MHX, and certainly more so than the Navigators in X8.

See, Advent doesn't just shaft Vent/Aile in gameplay, it de-values them by MegaMan Model A defeating/A-Transing them and implying MegaMan Model A as being the sole worthy challenger to Albert.  In no way am I against the focus on Grey/Ashe, they add plenty to the story.  I simply feel that failure to provide Vent/Aile as even an unlockable option was an inexcusable mistake.

Quote
That no sequel as of yet exists is no fault of ZXA.
"Fault" is irrelevant.  I am not assigning blame, I am citing your use of situations that may or may not exist as the sole basis of your views, which is simply flawed logic.  You cannot know that the next ZX game will or will not be titled, much less treated as, ZX3, or that the next Vent/Aile game will or will not be a numbered sequel, until it actually happens.

Just because the second game in a series is not numbered in its title, in no way whatsoever does that mean the third game will not be numbered 3 in its title (see Toejam & Earl 3).

Quote
It is not that X does not have more of a story to tell, it is simply that they chose no to tell it. Both Irregular Hunter X and Rockman Zero confirm this. Shifting the focus to Axl and Zero whilst shafting X was their conscious choice.
Interesting choices.  MHX is a remake of the original, Zero is a new series with a century or two of backstory to cover.

See the connection?  They're both beginnings.  Little is known of X, lots of out-of-game setup has been going on, so yes, there is PLENTY to tell.  But if we're at the 4th or 7th entry of a series respectively, the mere fact that the pre-existing protagonist is well established says that naturally there is more to say about the new one.  By no means does it have to stay that way as the series continues; I for one think X got far more significant character development in XCM than Axl or Zero.  Same for X6.

Quote
Not that that is necessarily bad, I don't even fault X7 for it, considering that it was needed for the plot. But marketing as a direct sequel to X6 was just bad; they really should have been more open and clear about these kind of deviations.
From the very first trailer they were clear that the game was 3D, in and of itself a severe deviation.  As for X, I really consider that (in gameplay) to be inconsequential.  He is unavoidable (which puts him in a better boat than Zero in X6), and his power more than justifies his delayed entry.  It's rare to see X as the high-attack character when compared to Zero.  My only concern as a matter of focus in X7 is why X got so little cutscene time, but quite frankly X's general character in the game is far more troubling than any cutscene absence could ever be.

Even numbered sequels can heavily deviate from their predecessors (Zelda 2, Metroid 4).  It's considered risky, yes, but it's by no means unheard of.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Mr. E on October 24, 2010, 11:15:06 AM
I don't hate the game, but...

Sentsuizan (on the pipes) =  ...  owob

Shoenzan is not good as Ryuenjin  -_-
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: MrBaryl on October 27, 2010, 06:34:26 AM
Overpowered attack by overpowered Zero is overpowered.

Aww..Dude I remember beating the crap out of sigma over and over just to listen I.D.E.A.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on October 27, 2010, 07:08:37 AM
I.D.E.A. Is catchy.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Cyberpunk on August 04, 2011, 05:08:08 AM
The way I see it, X6 just didn't meet expectations. I remember when X5 came out; for us RMX fans, it was a real titanic super-game, continuing the story after a long hiatus and introducing lots of great new elements. And when X6 was announced, we expected nothing short of awesomeness.

What we got was a mediocre plot, some of the worst translation seen in a video game, hair-pullingly difficult levels with push-over bosses, a cop-out Zero resurrection, and my favorite complaint; most disappointing Armor EVER. X6 had a very clear bar to jump over; it just kinda tripped at the start line.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 04, 2011, 07:16:25 AM
The plot was far from mediocre- and Gate is probably one of the best characters in the series, and was incredibly fleshed out.

Blade certainly cant top Falcon;s free flight, but for the game, Mach Dash works just fine. Its helpful in Gate's stages. Especially since you can just sit there in midair if you need to calculate your move a bit more.

Shadow armor is definitely better than Gaea however. For one, it isnt big bulky and slow. Second, while it is just as short ranged as Gaea was, it's regular shots have normal range (although as spread shots). It also lets you high jump, stick to the roof, and fire downwards from it.

X5 is not without it's own problems... Mainly the power up distribution, which forced you to evenly distribute certain power ups between X and Zero.

X6 however, lets you fully power one character. The chip system in X6 is also improved from X5, making the chips equip to the character, not the armor, and increasing the max quantity. Although it now works by rank determining how many you can equip.

Zero's resurrection isnt as cheap as you think, when you take into consideration what the game actually tells you about it. (Zero admits to Light that he does not know who repaired him, and Isoc claims to have seen Zero alive)

It certainly is no cheaper than Zero's death by boss explosion in X5 REGARDLESS of his actual proximity to the explosion.

It was also the first X game to give us an antagonist that WASN'T Sigma pulling the strings.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: megaman24681012 on August 04, 2011, 07:29:47 AM
Watch The Great Clement's LP of the game, you'll find out why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysngFQshy4I&feature=channel_video_title
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: slayer on August 05, 2011, 12:42:07 AM
funny... i never used the chips in x5 or x6, well in x6 a friend of me teach me the how to get the ultimate armor...even so the game was relentless
maybe as a game was fun, but if you care aobut the history, the game is far from history..... -_-
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 05, 2011, 10:09:07 AM
Zero's resurrection isnt as cheap as you think, when you take into consideration what the game actually tells you about it. (Zero admits to Light that he does not know who repaired him, and Isoc claims to have seen Zero alive)
Of course, both those bits of dialogue are missable...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 05, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
They are still there though. Also, I dont see how Isoc claiming to have seen Zero alive is missable when it is part of a story scene.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 05, 2011, 01:31:40 PM
The problem is mistranslation more than anything. Zero more than makes clear that the circumstances of his revival are similar to X's.

Zero: In the short time I’ve been away, people think so much less of me they associate me with a toy like this…
X: …Zero? Zero, you’re alive?
Zero: [sighs] So are you, X, aren’t you?
To begin with, we’re not going to let the likes of Sigma do us in… am I right?
X: I searched… but I couldn’t find anything… no data response… no parts… so…
Zero: Sorry to cause you worry. I lay low until I was fully recovered from the damage.
Meanwhile it looks like this “toy” was stirring up a fuss.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 05, 2011, 06:14:55 PM
....

Not really...

I can kinda see how that could be implied by that exchange, but more than anything it looks like some sort of meta-humour.
Anyway, I thought you had to be playing as Zero to see Isoc mention Zero being alive? Or was that in the intro? I always figured he was talking about the Nightmare copies.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 05, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
Quote
....

Not really...

I can kinda see how that could be implied by that exchange, but more than anything it looks like some sort of meta-humour.

Zero brushes off X's question by saying the circumstances are the same. If X survived, so did Zero. It's as easy as that. They do address that Zero's body vanished, leaving nothing to be found.

Quote
Anyway, I thought you had to be playing as Zero to see Isoc mention Zero being alive? Or was that in the intro? I always figured he was talking about the Nightmare copies.

It's said when X beats one investigator. Good luck getting Zero that early.

Gate:    By the way, did you find what you’re looking for?
I doubt it exists anywhere in the world…
Isoc:    No, that's not so. I saw it…
And he’s not the sort of low-ranked Repliroid who would die so easily…
Gate:    X and he are certainly tough guys. So he may be alive… though the chance is low.
Isoc:    I will find him without fail.
Gate:    Hmph. It doesn’t matter to me.
Do as you please. I don’t need… the “true Zero”.
Just make sure you take care of X and that experiment.
Isoc:    Yessir.

Only the talk between Dr. Right and Zero capsule is easily missed.

Right:    Zero… you’re safe?
Zero:    …I won’t die. --is what I’d like to say. But my memory is vague… I don’t know if my recovery function revived me, or somebody picked me up… The next thing I knew, I was able to move…
Right:    …The world still needs both X and you… Isn’t that why you revived?
And you must put an end to this nightmare…
Sorry, I’d like you to pass this armor program on to X…

Right:    X, Zero. I’m praying for your safety.

Zero:    Please wait! Was it you who rescued X?
Right:    …………
Zero:    Do you know anything about who rescued me?
Right:    I really don’t know anything. Forgive me.
Didn’t X call it a truly miraculous return?
Zero:    If there’s anything you know about me…
Right:    Zero, I’m sorry…I can’t even analyze you…
Zero:    I see… I’ll pass the program on to X…


Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 05, 2011, 06:35:53 PM
Zero brushes off X's question by saying the circumstances are the same. If X survived, so did Zero. It's as easy as that. Do remember in X5 that Zero's body vanished.
Well yeah, but it'd be more easily understood if X's body had vanished as well. I mean, of course X is alive, that's not really unexpected at all.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 05, 2011, 06:43:59 PM
Quote
I mean, of course X is alive, that's not really unexpected at all.

Signas: It truly is a miracle... Not only did he come back... but without so much as even a scratch!
Douglas: It's hard to repair the bodies of X and Zero because they're still a mystery...
Alia: It's not a miracle, I bet...
Signas: You never believe it's a "miracle"...
Alia: I'm not interested in miracles... I don't think Reploids dream of miracles, either...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 05, 2011, 06:58:42 PM
When is that seen?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 05, 2011, 07:13:28 PM
X5 ending, Zero Awakened.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 05, 2011, 09:12:26 PM
If it had been in X6 I might've agreed that the conversation made the implication obvious.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 05, 2011, 10:42:01 PM
Well yeah, but it'd be more easily understood if X's body had vanished as well. I mean, of course X is alive, that's not really unexpected at all.
You're only saying that because X's name is in the title.

X and Zero were in the exact same battle in X5.  The circumstances behind their damage were the same.  X is repaired by his creator.  Zero is seen by X before X is shot, yet Zero is not found after X is repaired.

So what do you THINK that means?

X6's opening shows that they both went up against Sigma and states that they "barely escaped with their lives".  If you are unfamiliar with the scenario beyond that then you are in no position to judge.  You can't gauge how plausible a given scenario is if you don't know the setup.  In fact, ignorance of X5 actually works in the player's favor, since only X5 when taken alone suggests the idea that Zero was dead rather than missing at all.  Even so, nobody bothers to take notice that in X5, X is only alive due to deus ex machina.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 05, 2011, 10:51:17 PM
Quote
Even so, nobody bothers to take notice that in X5, X is only alive due to deus ex machina.

I noticed! :( Of course, my memories of reading about that are fuzzy...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 06, 2011, 12:32:51 AM
Without Light, he would have died. Rather- stayed dead. Pretty sure he was already dead by the time Light repairs him.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 06, 2011, 02:52:49 AM
"Dead" can be a very vague term when it comes to artificial life forms.  You could utterly vaporize the body while its memory is backed up in external storage (Mega Man Juno), or the body could be completely intact while the brain collapses on itself due to an internal error (Iris).
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 06, 2011, 03:02:40 AM
I suppose. Normally I would classify Death in the Mega man universe as when the body is destroyed, but then we have X, who is still floating around while his body is still actually live. Though by that I guess you could consider him disembodied instead. But would that mean he is technically "dead" for real once Elpis destroys his body?

Although having his memory backed up doesnt make Juno's death any less dead. All it means is he can be given a new body and revived. In iris' case, her program failed and she died that way. I take it the same way Humans can die. either the body stops functioning, or the brain does. either means death, and for reploids, similar is true. If their bodies are destroyed, despite being able to be revived, they still are considered to have died. Zero for example- his body was destroyed, but his control chip survived intact. But he was still considered dead.

I suppose it depends on the situation, and the artificial lifeform in question.  Way I see it, if their body or mind dies, they are dead. The likes of Phantom, X are more akin to ghosts.

Doesnt Phantom mention something in regards to the matter? im too lazy to go look.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 06, 2011, 04:39:09 AM
Phantom is a "mere soul" that drifted into Cyberspace.  He has no presence in the substance world unless you have e-Reader cards.  ...or if you're observing retconned artwork.

Posted on: August 05, 2011, 10:21:44 PM
I take it the same way Humans can die. either the body stops functioning, or the brain does. either means death, and for reploids, similar is true. If their bodies are destroyed, despite being able to be revived, they still are considered to have died. Zero for example- his body was destroyed, but his control chip survived intact. But he was still considered dead.

I suppose it depends on the situation, and the artificial lifeform in question.  Way I see it, if their body or mind dies, they are dead.
Naturally "death" of an artificial life refers to "non-functional", however when a person is "non-functional" temporarily, they are considered seriously ill or injured, not dead and revived.

"Death" refers to "permanently non-functional", and the ambiguity strikes when you consider that programs can be copied and machines can be rebuilt.  A human may reach a point where he/she has lost consciousness and will die if left untreated; for a robot drawing that line is a bit trickier.  Under what circumstances would you call a robot comatose rather than dead?  What about losing consciousness due to shock from serious injury?

That's about where X and Zero are in X5.  You could say they "escaped with their lives" in that their creators can repair them, or you could call them "dead" in that they're both inactive and damaged beyond the help of any "modern medicine".
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 06, 2011, 05:06:12 AM
Oh what a tangled web we weave etc etc
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 06, 2011, 03:18:03 PM
You're only saying that because X's name is in the title.
And because I've played as him up to that point in the game, so I've only seen things from his perspective.

Quote
X and Zero were in the exact same battle in X5.  The circumstances behind their damage were the same.  X is repaired by his creator.  Zero is seen by X before X is shot, yet Zero is not found after X is repaired.

So what do you THINK that means?

X6's opening shows that they both went up against Sigma and states that they "barely escaped with their lives".  If you are unfamiliar with the scenario beyond that then you are in no position to judge.  You can't gauge how plausible a given scenario is if you don't know the setup.  In fact, ignorance of X5 actually works in the player's favor, since only X5 when taken alone suggests the idea that Zero was dead rather than missing at all.  Even so, nobody bothers to take notice that in X5, X is only alive due to deus ex machina.
My problem isn't believing that Zero was mysteriously missing and repaired by an unknown entity, it was that "So are you X. So are you." isn't enough on its own to make this clear.
Of course, if it replaces the "I hid while I repaired myself" thing we english-speakers got, that's a good step on its own...

EDIT: But looking at Zan's post now, it seems I was either hallucinating last night or he edited it, and it looks rather more helpful now. Different source of translation?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 06, 2011, 06:17:43 PM
I edited it with the actual translation instead of going by memory.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 08, 2011, 12:39:47 AM
And because I've played as him up to that point in the game, so I've only seen things from his perspective.
My problem isn't believing that Zero was mysteriously missing and repaired by an unknown entity, it was that "So are you X. So are you." isn't enough on its own to make this clear.
Of course, if it replaces the "I hid while I repaired myself" thing we english-speakers got, that's a good step on its own...
We in the U.S. saw a reference to auto-repair way back in X1.  And we know Zero isn't the talkative type when it comes to mysterious scientists.  His conversations with Light show that he knows someone repaired him but doesn't know who that someone is.  He wasn't lying when he said that he's been hiding, either.

I'll admit there's a lot that can be read between the lines with that scenario, however background information being absent from the games is pretty par for the course with the X-series.  X6 didn't come CLOSE to starting that.

X2 - Heavy Sigma Virus involvement, particularly with Magna Centipede's stage.
X4 - Iris and Colonel.
X5 - Zero Space.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 08, 2011, 10:53:00 AM
It's certainly not the first instance, but it's still a flaw to leave it unexplained... and unlike those you mentioned, this one is fairly major since it's right at the surface where even casual players who don't stop and think more deeply about the game will spot it.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on August 08, 2011, 05:02:56 PM
The fun part is entering Sigma's final stage by selecting Magna Centipede's!
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 09, 2011, 01:52:40 AM
It's certainly not the first instance, but it's still a flaw to leave it unexplained... and unlike those you mentioned, this one is fairly major since it's right at the surface where even casual players who don't stop and think more deeply about the game will spot it.
Zero Space is every bit as "at the surface", when you consider it's our only justification of why Light can operate outside of a capsule.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: slayer on August 09, 2011, 06:40:15 AM
honestly every game is the same, fun 2d action, but when the game is good people care about plot, maybe that`s anger many people (me included) i dont hate the game, i prefer this than mmz anytime, is just i really wanted to see what happen with the original megaman and dr. wily, and this i think is the factor that "Doomed" the game....welll i think
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 09, 2011, 11:27:58 PM
Zero Space is every bit as "at the surface", when you consider it's our only justification of why Light can operate outside of a capsule.
A hologram being projected isn't all that surprising, and the physical actions happen off-screen, so I don't think the average player is going to think much about that being a problem. Especially compared to a good-guy character (Zero) outright lying (repaired himself) on-screen, which is really rare.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on August 10, 2011, 01:58:25 AM
But one thing always bothers the fandom, where the [parasitic bomb] is Wily and what exactly is his plan?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 10, 2011, 02:03:32 AM
Quote
Especially compared to a good-guy character (Zero) outright lying (repaired himself) on-screen, which is really rare.

He wasn't lying. He was mistranslated.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Reaperoid on August 10, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
But one thing always bothers the fandom, where the [parasitic bomb] is Wily and what exactly is his plan?
He's out there somewhere, I guess. His plan is to give Right his comeuppance 8D

Wily: Zero...
Zero: Who are you?
Wily: My masterpiece...
Zero: But... who are you?
Wily: After him! He is my nemesis. Our rivalry is what gives me motivation in life. Now go!
Destroy him! That's an order.


Zero is basically like
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 10, 2011, 02:36:07 AM
Zero needs to hire a better translator.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 10, 2011, 02:48:12 AM
You know, looking back at that "repaired myself/waited 'til I recovered" bit. I may be wrong, but US-Zero could be referring to self-repair systems; in a way, that could mean the same thing as what was originally said.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: slayer on August 10, 2011, 02:55:14 AM
But one thing always bothers the fandom, where the [parasitic bomb] is Wily and what exactly is his plan?
plot holes, capcom lives from plot holes :)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 10, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
He wasn't lying. He was mistranslated.
That just shifts the blame from the writers to the translators.
You know, looking back at that "repaired myself/waited 'til I recovered" bit. I may be wrong, but US-Zero could be referring to self-repair systems; in a way, that could mean the same thing as what was originally said.
I always thought of it that way, but it's not much less preposterous than taking a wrench with his one arm and fixing the rest of his body. Nanites can do an awful lot but they're not magical...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 10, 2011, 02:56:54 PM
That just shifts the blame from the writers to the translators.

Seriously--I don't think ALL of the X series story's problems can be blamed on "mistranslations" (or perhaps "shoddy localization").

I was thinking the other night--you know how a lot of the story is inaccessible to us? Maybe the translators and localizers didn't have it either. Not very fair to blame them for divergences if that's the case.

Quote
but it's not much less preposterous than taking a wrench with his one arm and fixing the rest of his body. Nanites can do an awful lot but they're not magical...

Not too out of place next to X being saved by deus ex machina, though, is it?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 10, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
not having accesss is no excuse to just completely rewrite entire story scripts and badly translate things. Its not relevant at all in fact. Not unless Capcom USA was making their own Mega man X game.

Also, While light may be, nanties are not deus ex machinas. No self repair system can repair THAT kind of damage.

i always took it as Zero just lying to not make X worry over mysterious revivals.

And X being sappy enough to buy it. Somehow.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 10, 2011, 04:28:22 PM
Quote
not having accesss is no excuse to just completely rewrite entire story scripts and badly translate things. Its not relevant at all in fact.

What if it couldn't be helped, though? Maybe the translators did a competent job, and the localizers refined it (for lack of a better word) without knowing there was something else to the story that wasn't the same as what they came up with?

And yet it's all the translators' fault for not being clairvoyant?

Also, IIRC a few changed words does not equal "total story script rewrite". All of these accusations of mistranslating just feel really knee-jerk to me now.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 10, 2011, 04:52:45 PM
To be honest, if they don't get it right they aren't doing their job as professional translators.
Carpe Fulgur (2 people) has one guy that knows japanese well and one that writes english well. The translated script goes back and forth between them to make it well-written but also correct, and they make sure to consult the original writers about tone and intent etc. What excuse does Capcom have, to be any worse than 2 semi-amateur guys?
Although that last doesn't apply much to their modern day work, and I suppose there just weren't that many jp-speaking people back when X6 was ported.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 10, 2011, 05:00:19 PM
Eh, good point, I guess. But I was also talking about localizers, not just translators.

Quote
What excuse does Capcom have, to be any worse than 2 semi-amateur guys?

Maybe CoJ just didn't bother telling them anything about tone, intent etc. Wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Reaperoid on August 10, 2011, 07:39:39 PM
Providing the localisers know the context of what they're working on, in which case part of the deal would be writing the english script in context to how they interpret the game's events.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 12, 2011, 11:25:11 PM
A hologram being projected isn't all that surprising
It is when there's nothing to project from.  For five games straight the hologram has appeared only within capsules, never free-roaming.

Quote
and the physical actions happen off-screen
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
Double-standard.  You just named the exact problem everyone has with Zero's revival.

Which is even more preposterous when you think about the fact that X's "creator/avatar thereof" lacks any physical limbs to do salvage and repair work, while Zero's "creator/avatar thereof" freely interacts with the real world.

i always took it as Zero just lying to not make X worry over mysterious revivals.

And X being sappy enough to buy it. Somehow.
I'm sure Zero still required a few touch-ups after he woke up (why else wouldn't he have surfaced beforehand?).  He's not lying, it's just that he himself only knows part of the story, so that's all he can tell.  He's not saying "this is how I survived", he's saying "this is what I was doing after I had legs again".

It's not that X doesn't realize this, either, it's that he's in the same boat.  Neither X nor Zero knew for sure how they survived.  Zero took a shot in the dark and said that Light fixed them.  He was half right.

Seriously--I don't think ALL of the X series story's problems can be blamed on "mistranslations"
Of course not.  No translator is responsible for X5's ranking system completely contradicting the default ranks of X and Zero (you are literally punished for killing enemies and yet X gets shafted for disliking combat).

No translator is responsible for the complete absence of any explanation as to why Sigma is supposedly dead for good after his skull takes a Z-Buster to the face.

No translator is responsible for the fact that this "other person" who hates X did jack [parasitic bomb] about it for four games since.

No translator is responsible for the fact that X gets a few scuff marks from the same explosion that vaporized half of Zero's body, regardless of whether or not said explosion happens directly in front of X's face while Zero was in some nearby hallway.

No translator is responsible for defining "finality" as "kill the co-star and nobody will give a crap about the blue guy."
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 12, 2011, 11:59:37 PM
Quote
No translator is responsible for defining "finality" as "kill the co-star and nobody will give a crap about the blue guy."
This. Just... This. Inafune's idea of "finality" is pretty far from final. And leaves more questions than it answers. (Zero's very death, EG the very 'finality' itself)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 13, 2011, 12:11:21 AM
It is when there's nothing to project from.  For five games straight the hologram has appeared only within capsules, never free-roaming.
I didn't mean it made sense to the player as in "what is canon", more in the way of "I guess that would work, even in the real world". It doesn't hurt the suspension of disbelief.
Quote
Double-standard.  You just named the exact problem everyone has with Zero's revival.
I'm taking care to note this as something that mostly concerns players who don't think a step beyond the surface (which is embarrassingly frequently the case for me, myself) - as the problem isn't in what actually happens, but what the player sees.
The player doesn't actually see Light repair X, it's just more-than-strongly implied. But s/he WILL see Zero claim to have repaired himself, which is at best improbable (he was a torso and an arm), at worst impossible (he was dead.).

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I'm sure Zero still required a few touch-ups after he woke up (why else wouldn't he have surfaced beforehand?).  He's not lying, it's just that he himself only knows part of the story, so that's all he can tell.  He's not saying "this is how I survived", he's saying "this is what I was doing after I had legs again".

It's not that X doesn't realize this, either, it's that he's in the same boat.  Neither X nor Zero knew for sure how they survived.  Zero took a shot in the dark and said that Light fixed them.  He was half right.
An interesting interpretation, and it looks perfectly valid, but certainly not something that came to mind when I saw the exchange.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 13, 2011, 02:14:24 AM
I'm taking care to note this as something that mostly concerns players who don't think a step beyond the surface (which is embarrassingly frequently the case for me, myself) - as the problem isn't in what actually happens, but what the player sees.
The player doesn't actually see Light repair X, it's just more-than-strongly implied. But s/he WILL see Zero claim to have repaired himself, which is at best improbable (he was a torso and an arm), at worst impossible (he was dead.).
The player also sees Zero ask Light if he knows who repaired him.

Is that dialogue optional, and possible to miss?  Certainly.  But so is X and Zero's reunion in and of itself.  For that matter, so is Light repairing X in X5 (play as Zero, and X is believed to be dead), which is not referenced in X6 outside of the above-mentioned conversation between Light and Zero.

Incidentally, the one who repaired Zero is also implied, though never stated, within X6.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 13, 2011, 10:25:21 AM
The player also sees Zero ask Light if he knows who repaired him.

Is that dialogue optional, and possible to miss?  Certainly.  But so is X and Zero's reunion in and of itself.  For that matter, so is Light repairing X in X5 (play as Zero, and X is believed to be dead), which is not referenced in X6 outside of the above-mentioned conversation between Light and Zero.
True enough. But finding the Light capsule as Zero takes more know-how than finding Zero. And if you found the capsule as X at any point, you cannot see that conversation unless you play the game again. Even then, that doesn't guarantee you'll see it.

Might be more personal opinion, but I'd also say it's poor design to not even hint that a lie has been spoken in a conversation (with a few exceptions like setting up for a big Reveal much later in the story, which is not the case here), and with X & Zero they seem to just accept what's being said without questions nor hesitation.
If we go with your alternate interpretation instead of the common "lie" one, I feel that the meaning is too subtle and rephrasing is needed.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 14, 2011, 06:10:11 AM
True enough. But finding the Light capsule as Zero takes more know-how than finding Zero. And if you found the capsule as X at any point, you cannot see that conversation unless you play the game again. Even then, that doesn't guarantee you'll see it.
Literally every X game in existence requires, to some degree, multiple playthroughs if you want to view all dialogue.  The immediate predecessor, X5, took that to a greater extent than ever before, in addition to well establishing Zero and Light having some interesting conversations.  It shouldn't be any far stretch that those interested in what happened to Zero in X6 might actually want to play as him (nevermind the benefits of the awesomely broken Z-Buster).

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If we go with your alternate interpretation instead of the common "lie" one, I feel that the meaning is too subtle and rephrasing is needed.
X6 localize...not amazing...

Remember what game we're talking about; the whole damn thing needs rephrasing.  And besides, didn't Zan already tackle the phrasing of that particular conversation last page?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 14, 2011, 01:46:33 PM
So? What we've been talking about this whole time is whether it's surprising that people ridiculed that passage in the translation, and that it desperately needed work. Not that it was the only flaw of the game, or that it was the fault of the original writers.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 14, 2011, 04:50:56 PM
In that case you're presenting the conversation out of context.  If the entire game's localization is shoddy, which it clearly is, then common sense (not so common, I know) dictates that face-value is unreliable.  And face-value is the only way you get "Zero lied and X is a moron".  It's also the same way that one establishes that Erasure was centered around a reploid bathroom.

If you want to know why that passage is ridiculed, I'll tell you: Because people see what they want to.  It is the inverse of "Zello", which is to say people assume poor translations where it suits them (Sigma actually was suffering slurred speech), and deny them in the same manner (Zero and X are in the same boat in terms of their surviving X5).  It's not the passage that is being ridiculed, if it was then translation errors would be the first thought to pop up.  What's being ridiculed is the concept of Zero surviving.  X5 showed us both X and Zero as good as dead.  X5 showed us X's creator saving him.  X5 told us Zero's creator was "out there" somewhere.  And X5 told us that three years later (retconned), Zero is still out of the picture.

What happened was that the audience bought into Inafune's negligence sense of finality, and assumed that Wily was content to leave Zero in a scrap heap for a century.  Well, the notion that he wasn't shouldn't be all that surprising, so I'm sure Capcom felt justified in their search for more money.

Then there is to add to that the fans who thought that X should be carrying the series solo. XD *clears throat* Sorry.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 14, 2011, 05:12:49 PM
Quote
It's also the same way that one establishes that Erasure was centered around a reploid bathroom.

Am I the only person who thinks this might be just a typo? A really bad one?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 14, 2011, 06:58:57 PM
It is a typo, Gonz. He's making a point.

Also, X6 only furthers my idea that Wily is in fact the CEO of Capcom- Inafune wanted the series to end with Zero dead, and Wily doesnt want that! so he had X6 made!

Which brings me to another thing. The hell, Inafune's idea of finality involves KILLING off his favorite character while X, whom he constantly tries to 1up, lives?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on August 14, 2011, 07:31:31 PM
The hell, Inafune's idea of finality involves KILLING off his favorite character while X, whom he constantly tries to 1up, lives?

Sounds like Japanese storytelling to me.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 14, 2011, 08:28:09 PM
Sounds about right.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on August 14, 2011, 08:37:51 PM
YOu usually kill off someone you´d miss the most to leave an impact
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 14, 2011, 09:42:03 PM
Was X5's story all just Inafune's work, though...?

In that case you're presenting the conversation out of context.  If the entire game's localization is shoddy, which it clearly is, then common sense (not so common, I know) dictates that face-value is unreliable.  And face-value is the only way you get "Zero lied and X is a moron".  It's also the same way that one establishes that Erasure was centered around a reploid bathroom.
A single word being exchanged for one that sounds similar is an understandable typo, and not comparable to an insane line being spoken and accepted without question. And while the entire translation is bad, it's more in the sense of being hard to understand than being factually incorrect.
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If you want to know why that passage is ridiculed, I'll tell you: Because people see what they want to.  It is the inverse of "Zello", which is to say people assume poor translations where it suits them (Sigma actually was suffering slurred speech), and deny them in the same manner (Zero and X are in the same boat in terms of their surviving X5).  It's not the passage that is being ridiculed, if it was then translation errors would be the first thought to pop up.
I don't know what you're used to, but when I think translation errors I think typos and awkward grammar, not changing the story. It's happened, but it's uncommon.
Though I was surprised to find out people thought Sigma's slurred speech was an error, considering how blatant it was. Sometimes it's just not possible to lay it on thick enough...
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What's being ridiculed is the concept of Zero surviving.  X5 showed us both X and Zero as good as dead.  X5 showed us X's creator saving him.  X5 told us Zero's creator was "out there" somewhere.  And X5 told us that three years later (retconned), Zero is still out of the picture.

What happened was that the audience bought into Inafune's negligence sense of finality, and assumed that Wily was content to leave Zero in a scrap heap for a century.  Well, the notion that he wasn't shouldn't be all that surprising, so I'm sure Capcom felt justified in their search for more money.

Then there is to add to that the fans who thought that X should be carrying the series solo. XD *clears throat* Sorry.
I don't think people would have minded about Zero coming back again if they had just seen an explanation other than "I hid to repair myself".
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on August 14, 2011, 11:40:13 PM
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Was X5's story all just Inafune's work, though...?

The basic premise was his.The way it was executed was the team's derision.

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Also, X6 only furthers my idea that Wily is in fact the CEO of Capcom- Inafune wanted the series to end with Zero dead, and Wily doesnt want that! so he had X6 made!

It was the development team that felt the story had so much more potential and thus had to be continued.

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I don't know what you're used to, but when I think translation errors I think typos and awkward grammar, not changing the story. It's happened, but it's uncommon.

In videogames, especially Mega Man, it's far more common than you think.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 14, 2011, 11:56:13 PM
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In videogames, especially Mega Man, it's far more common than you think.

I was told that most of the "story-changing" in MM (Classic mostly, I think) amounted to fluff. >.>
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 15, 2011, 01:05:14 AM
Define "fluff".

Also, well fine, Wily is part of the dev team then.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on August 15, 2011, 01:07:55 AM
Define "fluff".

The example I was given was the method by which Dr. Cossack contacted Light in MM4.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 15, 2011, 01:23:14 PM
In videogames, especially Mega Man, it's far more common than you think.
Depressingly true. But all the same, I don't think it's the first thing that comes to mind for the average player when something outrageous is said (or even physically happens, in the case of MM7's ending), since the majority of the plots are left untouched.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on August 17, 2011, 01:29:29 AM
Was X5's story all just Inafune's work, though...?
Word of god here, via MMXOCW:

"I had very little to do with 'X5.' I just told the team to 'finish off the series with this title,' and left it at that. That's why the game itself has a real feel of finality to it." (Inafune)

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A single word being exchanged for one that sounds similar is an understandable typo, and not comparable to an insane line being spoken and accepted without question. And while the entire translation is bad, it's more in the sense of being hard to understand than being factually incorrect.
I believe I have already established that statement as never being proven factually wrong.  What is wrong is the circumstances, which are assumed by the fans, not stated by the game.  X didn't ask Zero how he survived, he asked Zero where he's been.  Two different questions.  Zero's answer is not factually wrong, it is in need of clarification.  Two different problems.

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I don't know what you're used to, but when I think translation errors I think typos and awkward grammar, not changing the story. It's happened, but it's uncommon.
There are several "factually wrong" translation errors from X5 alone.  A few more in the games that followed, especially if you count the manuals.

Often times a "typo" may appear coherent and yet change the meaning entirely.  Case in point: Zero1, "Z-Buster"

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Though I was surprised to find out people thought Sigma's slurred speech was an error, considering how blatant it was. Sometimes it's just not possible to lay it on thick enough...
Very true.

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I don't think people would have minded about Zero coming back again if they had just seen an explanation other than "I hid to repair myself".
When the explanation of how he died is, "the same boss explosion we see over a dozen times per game, while only X is on-screen"?  I don't know about you, but I wasn't expecting much after that.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 17, 2011, 09:29:34 AM
I believe I have already established that statement as never being proven factually wrong.  What is wrong is the circumstances, which are assumed by the fans, not stated by the game.  X didn't ask Zero how he survived, he asked Zero where he's been.  Two different questions.  Zero's answer is not factually wrong, it is in need of clarification.  Two different problems.
As long as it's a problem.
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There are several "factually wrong" translation errors from X5 alone.  A few more in the games that followed, especially if you count the manuals.
Important to the plot, too?
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When the explanation of how he died is, "the same boss explosion we see over a dozen times per game, while only X is on-screen"?  I don't know about you, but I wasn't expecting much after that.
What scene was that anyway? It's been so long since I played X5 (and I really don't feel like playing it again, ever) that I only remember Zero being shot through the chest after losing his legs somehow.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 17, 2011, 04:18:04 PM
Important to the plot, too?
Remember X's evil comrade?

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What scene was that anyway? It's been so long since I played X5 (and I really don't feel like playing it again, ever) that I only remember Zero being shot through the chest after losing his legs somehow.

Ending. Sigma explodes and talks [parasitic bomb] to X about how he's gonna take Zero down with him. And next scene- we see Zero with no legs and one arm. we have No idea WHERE the hell he was, but even though X was the one right next to Sigma, he gets away with only a few scuff marks and a sore arm.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on August 17, 2011, 06:00:21 PM
Remember X's evil comrade?
Double?
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Ending. Sigma explodes and talks [parasitic bomb] to X about how he's gonna take Zero down with him. And next scene- we see Zero with no legs and one arm. we have No idea WHERE the hell he was, but even though X was the one right next to Sigma, he gets away with only a few scuff marks and a sore arm.
I vaguely recall a scene where Sigma is standing over X with glowing hands, and Zero throwing himself in front of him, is that if you play as Zero or something?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 17, 2011, 07:28:33 PM
Double?
"Here I am. You can challenge me at anytime. I have delightful news. I've recently acquired a new partner. He has been very supportive. He seems to have created quite a few robots. And he gave me the toughest body that you will ever see. You got here sooner than I expected, so it is not yet complete... But...it is enough to defeat you... He is an excellent partner... I believe you two know each other... In fact, he used to be a comrade of yours. He was very persistent about you... and that makes him very helpful to me. You see X, there is someone other than me...who hates you... Now feel our combined rage and die! ...But not before suffering horribly, ha ha ha! ...Goodbye, X!"

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I vaguely recall a scene where Sigma is standing over X with glowing hands, and Zero throwing himself in front of him, is that if you play as Zero or something?
thats if you beat Awakening Zero. The normal scene involves Zero fending off Sigma with his Buster instead of throwing himself in the way.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: dragontamer272 on December 05, 2011, 07:05:01 AM
Hey, I don't hate X6, in fact it's one of my personal favorites in the X Series. X6 in my opinion had one of the BEST Soundtracks in a Mega Man game.

Favorite games from the X Series (in exact order):

#1: X1
#2: X5
#3: X6
#4: X4
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: persistentgrunt on February 11, 2012, 06:58:28 AM
Ways in which X6 > X5
*Alia isn't channelling Navi
*Parts system isn't nearly (NEARLY) as retarded
*X's special weapons seem fun to use
*Shadow Armor > Gaea Armor
*Most bosses don't have ridiculous health (127 HP in X5 at level 96? Really?)

For me, (X4 = X2) > X1 > (X8 = X6) > (X7 = X3) > X5
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 11, 2012, 03:13:46 PM
Ways in which X6 > X5
*Alia isn't channelling Navi
*Parts system isn't nearly (NEARLY) as retarded
*X's special weapons seem fun to use
*Shadow Armor > Gaea Armor
*Most bosses don't have ridiculous health (127 HP in X5 at level 96? Really?)
And here I thought I was the only one who noticed that stuff...

To add to that, X5 is easily the most linear game of the X series platformers (it's very obviously designed with an intended order of Grizzly->Rosered), while X6 is by contrast the most open-ended.

And while the Parts distribution is a HUGE issue with X5, it actually goes further than that.  Even the typical stuff like Heart Tanks and Armor capsules are badly done, with many of them being completely inaccessible as Zero.  The Gaea Armor is absolutely impossible to obtain without having visited every stage, and of those stages that didn't have Gaea Armor parts, defeating all but one of them (Volt Kraken/Squid Adler).

In X6 you could get EVERYTHING without obtaining a single Maverick weapon.  As either X or Zero.  In no other X game can you do that without password hacking or New Game Plus (or, more recently, giving Capcom extra money).
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Jericho on February 11, 2012, 06:53:56 PM
How interesting that this thread gets bumped when I'm nearing a completion of the game again. I really really think that if some of the receptional issues weren't present and the translation were better, this game would be one of the strongest X titles beside X1 & X4. There are a few genuinely broken things in the game usually involving screen scrolling jumps and leaps of faith, but that's nothing a tweak in the system couldn't fix.

The game has multiple manners through which you can reach its conclusions both in a single level sense and on a greater level, the best secondary armor in the series, overpowered ass Zero, a great sense of scale with the multiple enemy barrages without making you feel like you're overloaded or can't deal with everything around you, a really awesome story line, the absolute best portrayal of X in the series, plays off of one of the greater intrigues in the series with the Wily/Zero angle and introduced an antagonist that had every ounce of potential possible. I mean seriously, who else before the Zero series got that close to not only understanding X & Zero, but managed to weaponize the Reploid DNA altering aspects of the latter's code, something intrinsically linked in concept to what Cyber Elves do in the successor series?

There are times where my inner fan gets pissed off that the Maverick Hunter X line continues to stay dormant, X6 has the absolute highest potential for awesome if it were ever revisited and "fixed", let alone given any further supplemental material similar to the Day of Sigma OVA.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 11, 2012, 08:15:35 PM
The Gaea Armor is absolutely impossible to obtain without having visited every stage

Not true. The two parts that the game wants you to use the Falcon Armor for can actually be gotten in other ways. Spike Rosered's capsule can be reached with either Zero's double jump and Jumper or, as in this recent TAS that gets everything only as X (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjE8KMAjWHs), Wing Spiral and Nova Strike.

As for Spiral Pegacion's, Zero to the rescue again. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyjxRc6eROQ) Hyper Dash is absolutely required, but I'm not sure if Jumper is necessary.

I'm kinda ashamed I know this much about X5.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 12, 2012, 06:49:45 AM
Technically, yes, but the requirement of Jumper in Rosered's stage makes it impossible to obtain Speedster, which is ABSURDLY useful with the Falcon Armor; nobody in their right mind would give that up if they want to be using X primarily.  I'm aware of Zero's access to both capsules, however they require quite a bit of prep work, part sacrifices, and mad physics exploits in Skiver/Pegasus's case (respawning the same enemy repeatedly).  And there's still no getting around the need to kill Grizzly (at high rank for Hyper Dash), and Firefly for Necrobat's capsule, so even if deliberately trying to obtain Gaea early you have it for two stages, tops, at the expense of handicapping your other options.

I will admit that Wing Spiral's abuse was news to me, but I'd be curious if that works without Nova Strike (which is only available that early by both cheating and foregoing the Z-Buster).
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 12, 2012, 08:10:35 AM
You do know you can get the Ultimate Armor and Black Zero legit, right?

And yeah, Falcon is [tornado fang]ing broken and fun with Speedster. But in a speedrun that used those tricks, Falcon would be rendered useless.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on February 12, 2012, 09:52:51 AM
You do know you can get the Ultimate Armor and Black Zero legit, right?

(which is only available that early by both cheating and foregoing the Z-Buster).

He means before Zero Virus Stage 3.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 12, 2012, 08:25:01 PM
How in the blue blazing [tornado fang] is the Shadow Armor better than the Gaea Armor?



Can't do that [parasitic bomb] with the Shadow Armor!
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Nexus on February 13, 2012, 06:50:12 AM
Perhaps one of my issues with X6 is the relative lack of explanation (aside from a manual) of the Nightmare Effects. Sure, common gaming sense/knowledge dictates that if a level is highlighted with red on the selection screen, you probably shouldn't choose it or should be cautious. Until you go into what seems like an unaffected level and then there's Nightmare Blocks on Metal Shark Player's stage or falling fireball spam all over the place on Blizzard Wolfgang's stage. Granted, some of these result from defeating one of the other Mavericks beforehand, but it's really just trial-and-error in figuring out how to approach the least 'in the way' effects. Add in the fact that the game can be hit-or-miss with difficulty at times, and sometimes it'll just seem like things are happening for practically no reason at all.

Also the fact that probably some of the very little character development/backstory that Alia gets in the entire series and a flat-out explanation of why Gate's doing what he's doing (he does some minor explanation, but doesn't really delve into it), is reserved for grinding 3000 Nightmare Souls - something no player would probably reasonably do unless they knew about it beforehand or figured that, for some reason, replaying things to constantly collect more and more Nightmare Souls will pay off somehow (which it does, in that you can equip more parts the more souls you collect overall; was this noted in the manual?). You get a clip of Alia in a scientist garb alongside Gate at the credits, and X notes that he's her colleague which gets the emphasis across (not to mention the X version of the scene before the Gate's Lab stages are unlocked), but still.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 15, 2012, 02:20:07 AM
Parts/Souls connection is noted in-game, so yeah, that's a pretty good reason to grind for 'em.  Alia mentions Gate in the post-Maverick messages a lot, and she also confronts him directly before his levels if playing as Zero, and briefly addresses him after the first laboratory stage as either character.

The Nightmare System is definitely one of X6's weaker points, but it's far from a deal-breaker IMHO.  The only one that really irritates me is Mijinion's spotlight effect.  The rest are minor annoyances, and two of them (MSP's blocks and Heatnix's fireballs) can actually be helpful.

Can't do that [parasitic bomb] with the Shadow Armor!
While the Gaea Armor's anti-boss engine of destruction is quite possibly one of the most under-appreciated qualities of the series, Shadow Armor can bust one hell of a lot of heads in its own right.  Ultimate Buster, Overdrive, and your ever-trusty Giga Attack will dismantle pretty much anything.

Although if you want a REALLY satisfying/humiliating win, take Ultimate Armor against High Max.  "No chance to lose" indeed. XD

If there's one single thing I love above all else in X6, it's that victory was damn well satisfying.  There's a tremendous difference between how powerful you are at the start and how powerful you can potentially become, far more so than in the other games, and it nicely compliments the unusually high challenge, making you feel that you have overcome great obstacles and relish in how badass you are compared to a couple of hours ago.  I certainly cannot say the same thing for a game that ends with half of Zero's body vaporizing when he wasn't even on screen to begin with.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Zan on February 15, 2012, 11:04:24 AM
Quote
I certainly cannot say the same thing for a game that ends with half of Zero's body vaporizing when he wasn't even on screen to begin with.

Why mix gameplay and story?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: The Great Gonzo on February 15, 2012, 11:56:50 AM
Why mix gameplay and story?

Because gameplay can affect how one interprets the story?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on February 15, 2012, 03:26:40 PM
Why mix gameplay and story?

Because it can throw you off otherwise.  It took me a while to figure out that the boss explosion was the thing that damaged Zero, as the game doesn't really make it that clear (and truth be told, it doesn't really make sense).  Simply putting Zero's sprite on screen at that moment would've made it a little clearer.  The whole Soul Body thing after the X/Zero fight took me a while to catch too, though that's because I never noticed it flying towards me during the boss explosion. XD  Honestly, storytelling isn't exactly X5's strong suit.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 16, 2012, 01:51:46 AM
I love how X and Zero both have boss explosions when you beat them, and despite that are both fine afterwards. (well, yknow, aside from battle damage)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 16, 2012, 02:29:18 AM
But then again, it would be weird to not have them have a explosion.

IMAGINE IT
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 16, 2012, 04:17:25 AM
Very, very true.  The X series has to appeal to our inner pyromaniacs. XD

Why mix gameplay and story?
For one thing, Zero's survivability has a direct impact on gameplay at an earlier point.  It's one hell of a letdown to either suck or have rotton luck, crawl through the Awakened Zero battle, then go back and do it right, only for Zero to die at the end anyway.  Besides, X6's story impacts its satisfaction as well; how awesome is it to kick the series baddie while he's down?  I loved that part.  It breaks the stereotype of "fantasy good guy always plays defense".

Also, I was deliberately trying to be brief.  If you want a gameplay justification for X5's lack of satisfaction, that's easy: You start with an armor that is offensively far more powerful than either of the two sets that you have to collect.  Hell, it's literally the end-of-game secret minus Giga Attack (they could have at LEAST used the Stock Charge...), and the only armor outside of said secret that can charge special weapons.  The whole lack of proper access to power-ups applies, too.  X5 downplays the usual series theme of growing stronger, more through blunders in the way of balance and availability than through any deliberate action that I can see.  It is perhaps the single weakest entry in the series in that regard.  Ditto for the non-linear nature of stage selection.  Both of these are key elements to Mega Man's appeal, especially in the X series, and they are both severely weakened in X5.

I love how X and Zero both have boss explosions when you beat them, and despite that are both fine afterwards. (well, yknow, aside from battle damage)
They have nothing on Dynamo.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 16, 2012, 09:09:51 AM
True that, but I remember the SNES games not doing the boss explosion when a character lives past the battle. Battle simply stops and dialogue happens. Kinda like Highmax in the intro stage. (except for the fact that you couldnt beat him anyway) but the PSX games had the best boss explosions of the X series, so hey, might as well flaunt it right?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 20, 2012, 08:45:46 AM
If there's one single thing I love above all else in X6, it's that victory was damn well satisfying.  There's a tremendous difference between how powerful you are at the start and how powerful you can potentially become, far more so than in the other games, and it nicely compliments the unusually high challenge, making you feel that you have overcome great obstacles and relish in how badass you are compared to a couple of hours ago.  I certainly cannot say the same thing for a game that ends with half of Zero's body vaporizing when he wasn't even on screen to begin with.

Technically the game ends after you've narrowly wrecked Sigma's [parasitic bomb], which by his second form is no small feet.

I never really got that with X6. Probably because I wasn't having that much fun. High Max was a challenge, but his role was pretty much a blatant ripoff of Vile's role in X1, only with less impact and relevance to the story. Gate was a dandy. Nightmare Sigma is Sigma's coolest looking second form, but also goes major cheapo at the end with the undodgeable energy balls. Reminds me of those cheap purple squares from Gamma Sigma in X5. God I [tornado fang]ing hated those things.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 20, 2012, 09:38:48 AM
Those purple squares.

All of my hate.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 20, 2012, 10:56:36 AM
Those purple squares.

All of my hate.

Heaven help you if you were trying to beat Gamma Sigma as unarmored X.

Which, if you're an old school boss, you should play through and beat every X game with.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Rin on February 20, 2012, 11:25:38 AM
Because of you guys, I'm playing through X6 again...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 20, 2012, 05:45:45 PM
Sigma never used the Purple XBox of death on me, what gives?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on February 20, 2012, 08:18:48 PM
Very, very true.  The X series has to appeal to our inner pyromaniacs. XD
For one thing, Zero's survivability has a direct impact on gameplay at an earlier point.  It's one hell of a letdown to either suck or have rotton luck, crawl through the Awakened Zero battle, then go back and do it right, only for Zero to die at the end anyway.  Besides, X6's story impacts its satisfaction as well; how awesome is it to kick the series baddie while he's down?  I loved that part.  It breaks the stereotype of "fantasy good guy always plays defense".

Also, I was deliberately trying to be brief.  If you want a gameplay justification for X5's lack of satisfaction, that's easy: You start with an armor that is offensively far more powerful than either of the two sets that you have to collect.  Hell, it's literally the end-of-game secret minus Giga Attack (they could have at LEAST used the Stock Charge...), and the only armor outside of said secret that can charge special weapons.  The whole lack of proper access to power-ups applies, too.  X5 downplays the usual series theme of growing stronger, more through blunders in the way of balance and availability than through any deliberate action that I can see.  It is perhaps the single weakest entry in the series in that regard.  Ditto for the non-linear nature of stage selection.  Both of these are key elements to Mega Man's appeal, especially in the X series, and they are both severely weakened in X5.
They have nothing on Dynamo.




Not mention that X5 had some horrible level desgins and it bashes for mssing any small itme or task.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 20, 2012, 08:19:55 PM
Sigma never used the Purple XBox of death on me, what gives?

Did you [twin slasher] him with the Ultimate Armor before he got the chance?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 20, 2012, 08:33:47 PM
Nope  :\
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on February 21, 2012, 02:28:19 PM
Nightmare Sigma is Sigma's coolest looking second form, but also goes major cheapo at the end with the undodgeable energy balls. Reminds me of those cheap purple squares from Gamma Sigma in X5. God I [tornado fang]ing hated those things.

Dude, the purple cube attack is on a completely different level than those energy balls.  They're dodge-able, you just have to leave the green platforms alive so you can jump over the high ones.  The low ones of course can be ducked under.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 21, 2012, 10:41:12 PM
You're right. I remember them being much cheaper than they are.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 24, 2012, 02:00:30 AM
High Max was a challenge, but his role was pretty much a blatant ripoff of Vile's role in X1, only with less impact and relevance to the story.
I majorly disagree.  Even though yes, High Max role mirrors that of Vile in X1, there are some differences that I feel make him majorly relevant to the series and to X's character.

Numero uno is that X1, for both X and Zero, is their "infancy" when clearly neither of them has matured into the force that they've later become.  It actually lends a lot of clarification on what X is, to be reminded that he is continually growing more powerful.  Not only that, but when you DO defeat High Max, you do so without any outside aid.  X really never got to go solo against Vile until X3, which somewhat undermined the "growing stronger" theme that X1 was trying to set up.  In X6, the difference in X's power is shown within gameplay twofold.  Not only are newer abilities relevant to High Max's defeat, but his default abilities that previously failed are making a stronger impact than at the first encounter (the X-Buster previously has no effect on High Max but will later stun him).

There's also the fact that when X confronts High Max for the final time, we see X's total disregard for an outsider's rationale about why he is inferior.  For a character who is otherwise very hesitant and conflicted, it's very refreshing, and about as badass as he's going to get.  X6 kept X passionate but made him a *LOT* less whiney and more determined; beneath that shoddy localization is one of the best representations of X's character as his fans envision him.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 24, 2012, 02:33:15 AM
I majorly disagree.  Even though yes, High Max role mirrors that of Vile in X1, there are some differences that I feel make him majorly relevant to the series and to X's character.

Numero uno is that X1, for both X and Zero, is their "infancy" when clearly neither of them has matured into the force that they've later become.  It's actually lends a lot of clarification on what X is, to be reminded that he is continually growing more powerful.  Not only that, but when you DO defeat High Max, you do so without any outside aid.  X really never got to go solo against Vile until X3, which somewhat undermined the "growing stronger" theme that X1 was trying to set up.  In X6, the difference in X's power is shown within gameplay twofold.  Not only are newer abilities relevant to High Max's defeat, but his default abilities that previously failed are making a stronger impact than at the first encounter (the X-Buster previously has no effect on High Max but will later stun him).

There's also the fact that when X confronts High Max for the final time, we see X's total disregard for an outsider's rationale about why he is inferior.  For a character who is otherwise very hesitant and conflicted, it's very refreshing, and about as badass as he's going to get.  X6 kept X passionate but made him a *LOT* less whiney and more determined; beneath that shoddy localization is one of the best representations of X's character as his fans envision him.

[tornado fang], man.

NOW I have to go play that [tornado fang]ing game again. Thanks, Hypershell *sigh*.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 24, 2012, 02:39:44 AM
I thought High Max was annoying.

Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 24, 2012, 02:52:20 AM
I think Falcon Armor is about the only form in the game that DOESN'T have some way of utterly dismantling High Max.

[tornado fang], man.

NOW I have to go play that [tornado fang]ing game again. Thanks, Hypershell *sigh*.
You're welcome. 8)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 24, 2012, 07:33:31 AM
No, seriously man. [tornado fang] you.

I just finished going through a lovely endless loop of facing off against the fourth Nightmare Snake in Blaze Heatnix's stage, with unarmored X on X-treme mode, before I decided to break out of it and regroup with some armor. I would've had a much better time of it--and probably beaten it too--if it weren't for THE BEES:

(http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/files/X/X6/Enemy/mmx6_nightmare_bug.gif)

THESE LITTLE SHITS are why everyone hates X6. I'd like to [twin slasher] whoever programmed and designed those little nightmares with a spiked mace.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on February 24, 2012, 05:20:42 PM
Well, you can always swap the nightmare effect to the silver boxes (MSP's stage), which may or may not be a better fit.  That said, the dragonflies aren't really the reason people don't like X6, or at the very least they're low on the list.  What gets most people is either the segment after beating High Max in Gate's lab that requires certain parts if you're unarmored/Shadow, Blaze Heatnix's donuts, or Mijinion's blinding nightmare effect.

X6 is one of those games that you have a love/hate relationship with.  Some segments are really well-done, and others make you want to kick a puppy.  Multiple people have put it this way: Megaman X6 is to the the X series what the Lost Levels are to Mario.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 24, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
They may not be the only reason, but they're a perfect example of an obstacle or enemy that literally does nothing for the experience but ruin it or make it worse. Especially during Blaze Heatnix's stage.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 24, 2012, 10:47:55 PM
This reminds me, I tried to beat MMX6 again, but gave up at Mijion's boss battle because it's just.....i dont even know how explain it.  -AC
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 24, 2012, 11:50:08 PM
Mijinion, you just have to buster him in the face the entire time. Hitting him with a saber is suicide. There's still luck involved though. If he decides to stay close to the ceiling, be wary. If he goes WOO-HOO, you're in trouble.

I just finished going through a lovely endless loop of facing off against the fourth Nightmare Snake in Blaze Heatnix's stage, with unarmored X on X-treme mode, before I decided to break out of it and regroup with some armor. I would've had a much better time of it--and probably beaten it too--if it weren't for THE BEES:

(http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/files/X/X6/Enemy/mmx6_nightmare_bug.gif)

THESE LITTLE SHITS are why everyone hates X6. I'd like to [twin slasher] whoever programmed and designed those little nightmares with a spiked mace.

No wonder you hate this game. Playing it unarmored is just plain insane.

The dragonflies are one of the least annoying Nightmare effects because you can get rid of them. Just keep Yammar Option on at all times. And they drop health and ammo too. Nothing else in the stage drops ammo, and the only other way to get health is Reploids.

Having said that, though, I did change my route in the 8boss run so that I could avoid them in Heatnix. Specifically, the one in the top third doughnut room. I have a much easier time setting up my charged Metal Anchor with having to deal with the 50/50 shot of him hitting me.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 25, 2012, 12:01:05 AM
No wonder you hate this game. Playing it unarmored is just plain insane.
Uh, yeah, unarmored X exists pretty much just to show off your manliness.  If you're going to [sonic slicer] about that, then don't use him.

Honestly, if I were to start X6 without going on the old Reploid scavanger hunt first (I love gathering up all the parts/armor before beating the Mavericks; also Shadow Armor vs Nightmare Zero is FUN), I'd start with Blizzard Wolfang.  His weapon is extremely useful for accessing hard-to-reach places.  Turtloid, Shark, then double back to Blaze Heatnix, and you can wail on his minibosses with the charged Metal Anchor, and complete the Shadow Armor.  Also, besides the Central Museum, the Reploids in the other levels generally don't cough up any good parts.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 25, 2012, 12:12:36 AM
i never use the buster, I always use the "Hyper Saber Dash trick" when playing as X.

And also I used Zero for Mijinion
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 25, 2012, 01:36:17 AM
That was what I was referring to mostly, even though it does apply to both characters. Z Buster all the way, baby.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on February 25, 2012, 02:14:18 AM
I actually had a lot of trouble with Wolfang especially the first part. you cannot climb the walls or do jack without dying.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 25, 2012, 04:22:02 AM
Uh, yeah, unarmored X exists pretty much just to show off your manliness.  If you're going to [sonic slicer] about that, then don't use him.

Oh, nooo no no no no. I'm not bitching because unarmored X is challenging. I'm bitching because the level design consists of mounds of bullshit. Make no mistake! I'd be just as pissed if I went through the whole game as Falcon Armor X or even Zero.

i never use the buster, I always use the "Hyper Saber Dash trick" when playing as X.

How the hell do you do that anyways?

I actually had a lot of trouble with Wolfang especially the first part. you cannot climb the walls or do jack without dying.

You mean the stage or the boss fight? I found an easy way to clear the first--even though I did feel cheaped out by an unanticipated spike pit in the second iceberg room. Had a surprisingly easy time beating Wolfang with blue X.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 25, 2012, 04:58:31 AM
How the hell do you do that anyways?

Well basically for X, the saber can be cancelled into ANYTHING (a buster shot, crouching, jumping, moving forward) and be used again.

-> -> /_\ -> -> /_\ -> -> /_\ -> -> /_\ As fast as you can.

O /_\ O /_\ O /_\ O /_\ O /_\ Alt version

also Zero's version;

-> -> [] [] -> -> [] [] -> -> [] [] -> -> [] []
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 25, 2012, 05:40:42 AM
Zero's saber cancel is so much easier to use than X's.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 25, 2012, 07:26:12 AM
Apparently I'd never put myself through enough suffering to get over 3000 Nightmare Souls, because I've just seen a brief but interesting pair of cutscenes involving Alia, Gate, and X. It also unlocked Gate's lab before I even beat Rainy Turtloid's or Blaze Heatnix's stage.

Does anything else cool happen if I collect more souls?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on February 25, 2012, 08:26:08 AM
Had a surprisingly easy time beating Wolfang with blue X.

Wolfang's a joke when you fight him in his own stage.  On the other hand, he goes absolutely berserk in the rematch.  Spikes all over the place...

Does anything else cool happen if I collect more souls?

Nothing besides your rank going up.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 25, 2012, 08:28:00 AM
And the higher your rank, the more power up parts you can equip.

And if you get what was it? 3000? I dont remember- you get that special cutscene where Alia talks about Gate.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 25, 2012, 09:54:02 PM
And the higher your rank, the more power up parts you can equip.

And if you get what was it? 3000? I dont remember- you get that special cutscene where Alia talks about Gate.

That's the one. Such a good scene too. It's unfortunate you had to dig through so much crap to get to it.

The only parts I care about having are Speedster, Jumper, Quick Charge, and either Ultimate Buster or Buster Unit equipped. I don't really feel like farming 9999 souls to equip 5 parts.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 25, 2012, 10:08:25 PM
What do the Green orbs do after you beat a boss? Give you more nightmare souls?

I always wondered.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 25, 2012, 10:54:22 PM
Yeah. The green orbs give you 200 souls each.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on February 25, 2012, 11:29:50 PM
So..do we all agree that this game is an unenjoyable chapter of Megaman history?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 25, 2012, 11:37:26 PM
yes.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 26, 2012, 12:42:24 AM
I say no, and I know there's another no coming. But I admit it's not for everyone.

Though, are we in agreement that X6 is at least better than X7?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on February 26, 2012, 01:02:19 AM
They have their ups and downs...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 26, 2012, 01:27:08 AM
So..do we all agree that this game is an unenjoyable chapter of Megaman history?
I find it quite the opposite. A fun and challenging chapter of Megaman history, which has it's frustrations.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 26, 2012, 02:11:48 AM
It's a load of [parasitic bomb]. Challenging for the wrong reasons, encourages tedious resource farming, arguably mis-balances X and Zero's abilities, and the Nightmare System is literally the stuff of nightmares.

I'd go so far as to argue X7 is more fun, but that isn't saying much. The developers of Mega Man X6 just said "[tornado fang] it" and decided to make the most difficult, frustrating, cheap, and unfairly punishing Mega Man game of all time. It's like an ambitiously sadistic rom hack, through and through.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 26, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
Which Gate stage is it?

The one with the shitload of enemies and the Totem poles you HAVE to destroy to advance? I [tornado fang]ing hated that stage.

and also the stage in which you go UP, with the walls poking with SPIKES? jesus christ.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Satoryu on February 26, 2012, 03:18:19 AM
Second stage had the totem poles. I don't they're that big a deal. If you have the right equipment, you can jump on top of the third one for a cool shortcut. Blade Armor can skip them all in fact.

As for spikes going up, that could be either 1 or 2.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 26, 2012, 03:22:44 AM
Blade Armor is definitely useful in Gate's stages. Also, something about X6, is that you WILL find yourself using special weapons alot. You cant just blaze through with the buster. ( I mean, you can, but using weapons makes your life easier)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 26, 2012, 06:40:33 AM
Weapons or parts.  Neither are outright required, it's a matter of what tickles your fancy.  That's why I love the game.

So..do we all agree that this game is an unenjoyable chapter of Megaman history?
ABSOLUTELY not.  For all of the ambition that X5 showed, X6 pretty much perfected everything it attempted (other than the armor-must-be-completed-before-use thing, dunno what they were thinking with that one).  X6 is one of my favorite main-series games, right up there with X1 and X4.

arguably mis-balances X and Zero's abilities
(http://home.comcast.net/~anguirus/objection.gif)

Holy hell, is that ever burying your head in the sand.  All of the game's "standard" forms (Falcon, Blade, Shadow, Zero) are balanced according to offense, defense, and mobility (mainly in mid-air).  Falcon is the all-arounder without excelling in anything in particular.  Blade is more mobile, less offensive.  Shadow is more offensive, less mobile.  Zero is both offensive and mobile at the expense of defense.

Beyond that we have the cheat code unlocked Ultimate Armor and Black Zero which both excel across the board, and plain vanilla X, who as previously mentioned exists for no reason other than challenge.

It's also worth mentioning, as far as "balance" goes, that this is the *ONLY* PS1 game where the Ultimate Armor is not "abilities you already had + infinite Giga Attack".  I still don't get why X5 didn't just give 4th Armor the Stock Charge...

Quote
The developers of Mega Man X6 just said "[tornado fang] it" and decided to make the most difficult, frustrating, cheap, and unfairly punishing Mega Man game of all time.
While X6 does pretty much throw the kitchen sink at you, I don't agree in the SLIGHTEST that it is unfair (well, besides maybe Mijinion's nightmare effect).  It is more open, and expects you to think for yourself, and the solutions run considerably deeper than the formulaic obstacles that the other games present.  While it presents tremendous challenges there's also a wealth of work-arounds to its many challenges, which engages the player by having them find *a* solution without it necessarily being the only arbitrary strategy that the developers just decided should work.  Further, the game takes what X5 attempted to do with the expansion to armor and parts, adds more to the mix, and unlocks its full potential in a way that X5 simply does not allow.  The increased difficulty is the natural evolution to continue to keep the game balanced in the face of all that power.  Otherwise, you get Xtreme 2 (which I also love, but not everybody likes easy games).

As was said above I too get that X6 isn't for everyone.  But the things it does differently are an extension of what Mega Man is built on: non-linear progress, growing more powerful, and finding the best weapons and equipment to tackle a given obstacle.  They were simply taken to a far greater extreme than ever before (or since).  To me, that is challenging for all of the RIGHT reasons.  Unfortunately, it also makes the game less approachable, both to outsiders and to the not-so-hardcore fans.

As I always say, X6 is to the X-series what Lost Levels is to Mario.

And by the way, X6 may be the toughest X-series game, but it is a long way from being the most sadistic Mega Man game.  That title, far and away, goes to Powered Up.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on February 26, 2012, 09:25:49 AM
Seems like a masochist is playing devil's advocate....
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on February 26, 2012, 03:47:48 PM
You asked for opinions and you got it.

EDIT: Say, Hypershell, you've watched Sequelitis, right? Would you say there's a similarity in the difficulty of X6 and CV1?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 26, 2012, 04:14:55 PM
I haven't actually played CV1 (I've only in the last few weeks made it a point to get back into 4), but based on Egoraptor's descriptions, I do see some similarity.  X6 places a greater emphasis on some of the special weapons (especially if you're using Blade Armor), and when you start out, you most definitely need to proceed cautiously.  As you collect more power-ups, rushing the enemy head-on becomes more viable.

What seems to most turn people off about X6 is the possibility of reaching an impass (although this is limited to alternate routes and the game's final stages, and is FAR less likely than most players seem to believe; generally they just give up too easily).  Many of them seemed to never discover "Start, Select, Use Previous Data", either, although in all fairness that option was removed from the X Collection version (so save often if that's the one you have), and it would have been more straightforward to just allow the direct return to Stage Select from the weapon screen at any time.



Blackhook's just making me feel old.  If X6 is your idea of torture, then late 80s/early 90s gaming would have eaten you alive.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: VixyNyan on February 26, 2012, 04:50:26 PM
late 80s/early 90s gaming is the type of gaming I grew up with, and I am quite fond of the challenge. :3
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on February 26, 2012, 06:45:12 PM
So am I...yet, I found no enjoyment in X6...

though honestly...I really enjoy only X1 and X8 from the x series....
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 26, 2012, 08:06:08 PM
X6 is Nintendo hard.

Which is funny because it's on a Sony.

X8 just feels bland to me overall the more I play it. Its a good game, but levels feel bland and boring and linear. And X4 is STILL the only game to actually do Jetbike stages well. Good God Man-o-war's stage is such a nightmare...

I attribute some of the blandness to the way power ups work, which is, just grind metals and find poorly hidden rare metals and buy from the shop. (and capsules aren't too hidden either.) Though that's hardly an excuse, since Classic 9 and 10 do the same thing and they still have better level design than X8. X8 simply has more linear levels that are easy to go through without weapons.

I dont know why, but I sometimes find myself enjoying X7 over X8. I must be silly.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 26, 2012, 08:33:08 PM
Yeti's stage is worse, it has a bunch of crappy ways to die, and you NEED both characters to survive if you want that armor piece (Zero and X)

why do you have to get killed for touching a wall? why cant they just move you over a bit when you hit it? (like when the Stingray ship appears the 2nd time)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Blackhook on February 26, 2012, 10:53:11 PM
Well..I like X8 mostly due to it's soundtrack and Zero's weapons >3>
That's where my enjoyment comes from.And some of the boss battles. For me it's gennerally hard to enjoy something. The games I enjoyed the most get replayed by me the most....I've played each of the X games once (besides X1 which I can replay any day without getting tired of it)
There was literaly nothing for me to return to after playing the rest once...
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 26, 2012, 11:18:08 PM
Weapons or parts.  Neither are outright required, it's a matter of what tickles your fancy.  That's why I love the game.
ABSOLUTELY not.  For all of the ambition that X5 showed, X6 pretty much perfected everything it attempted (other than the armor-must-be-completed-before-use thing, dunno what they were thinking with that one).  X6 is one of my favorite main-series games, right up there with X1 and X4.

I wouldn't call grinding for Nightmare Souls and forcing you to reload saved games to save a corrupted Reploid here and there "perfected", but it's a little better than how X5 handled it. And as rewarding as that secret info cutscene was, inadvertently collecting 3000 souls to get it--and then removing High Max from the secret areas--wasn't the best way to do it.

Holy hell, is that ever burying your head in the sand.  All of the game's "standard" forms (Falcon, Blade, Shadow, Zero) are balanced according to offense, defense, and mobility (mainly in mid-air).  Falcon is the all-arounder without excelling in anything in particular.  Blade is more mobile, less offensive.  Shadow is more offensive, less mobile.  Zero is both offensive and mobile at the expense of defense.

Isn't defense merely a factor who rescues more Reploids and collect life-ups with? Also, Zero's Z-buster is stronger than X's standard buster while X's saber is much weaker than Zero's. Sure, you can only fire the Z-buster when you're standing, but you can still take out a wider range of enemies in midair in a single swipe of the Z-saber than X can, making short work of mid-bosses and the like, so it hardly matters. The saber does like 5-10 hits of chip damage whereas X does 1-2. Oh, and get this: the Z-buster is devastating against High Max, whereas the X-buster only manages to stun him. Evidently just hitting him with Zero's saber is enough to do damage to him, whereas X's doesn't even do damage. Same deal with the Blade Armor. How [tornado fang]ing retarded is that? So you can't even blame me for fighting High-Max with regular X (and even if you did, I'd point you to the name of the game).

I really expected the Blade Armor to be more offensively capable than X's standard buster and saber, but that's incorrect. The only good things about the Blade Armor are mobility (particularly to rescue Reploids and get the Shadow Armor) and a decent Giga attack. I'd much rather just use vanilla X with some parts equipped, but clearly the game doesn't want me to do that, because certain stages require greater mobility than he's capable of in order for me to progress and not die. Central Museum is one example. The least they could've done is just given the air dash to regular X and scrapped the Falcon Armor altogether, but they decided to wait until X8 to do that.

Beyond that we have the cheat code unlocked Ultimate Armor and Black Zero which both excel across the board, and plain vanilla X, who as previously mentioned exists for no reason other than challenge.

I mean, besides the game being called Mega Man X. That reasoning is just a step away from being the optional unlockable. >.>

It's also worth mentioning, as far as "balance" goes, that this is the *ONLY* PS1 game where the Ultimate Armor is not "abilities you already had + infinite Giga Attack".  I still don't get why X5 didn't just give 4th Armor the Stock Charge...

Because nobody liked the Stock Charge, despite it being better than the Plasma Shot if you knew how to use it.

Also, the Ultimate Armor shouldn't have been reused so much. Even as a cheat code. It's just lazy.

While X6 does pretty much throw the kitchen sink at you, I don't agree in the SLIGHTEST that it is unfair (well, besides maybe Mijinion's nightmare effect).

And the general game design. They do literally throw [parasitic bomb] at you that you couldn't have possibly seen coming.

If it's not unfair, it's probably just put there to have no effect but annoy and frustrate you, despite your best efforts. Those [tornado fang]ing mosquitos, man. During Blaze Heatnix's stage, no less. And how about that stupid blackout rave party effect? [tornado fang] the Nightmare System.

It is more open, and expects you to think for yourself, and the solutions run considerably deeper than the formulaic obstacles that the other games present.  While it presents tremendous challenges there's also a wealth of work-arounds to its many challenges, which engages the player by having them find *a* solution without it necessarily being the only arbitrary strategy that the developers just decided should work.  Further, the game takes what X5 attempted to do with the expansion to armor and parts, adds more to the mix, and unlocks its full potential in a way that X5 simply does not allow.  The increased difficulty is the natural evolution to continue to keep the game balanced in the face of all that power.  Otherwise, you get Xtreme 2 (which I also love, but not everybody likes easy games).

You're making "excessive, overly punishing trial and error" sound deeper and more fun than it is.

As was said above I too get that X6 isn't for everyone.  But the things it does differently are an extension of what Mega Man is built on: non-linear progress, growing more powerful, and finding the best weapons and equipment to tackle a given obstacle.  They were simply taken to a far greater extreme than ever before (or since).  To me, that is challenging for all of the RIGHT reasons.  Unfortunately, it also makes the game less approachable, both to outsiders and to the not-so-hardcore fans.

Oh, seriously man? I don't enjoy X6 because I'm a less hardcore fan than you? The one that's bothering to play as vanilla X on Xtreme difficulty? Give me a break.

It's a poorly balanced, chaotic, and marginally rewarding Mega Man X game. It punishes you for using and exploring stages with X (just about any variation) by giving you an unwinnable fight with High Max and giving you arguably gimped weaponry and clearly substandard mobility compared to any other choice in the game. You can't even beat the game with just X because of how the Gate stages are designed, so finding armors (or playing as Zero) has now become a necessity where it used to be optional. Then there's the bullshit Nightmare System with it's bees, random blackouts, and spamming enemy placement with Nightmares all over the game. Even Ninja Gaiden isn't full of so much bullshit. It's not like any of this is fixed by not picking vanilla X, so that's hardly an refutation for why I think the game sucks--more like part of why I think it sucks.

If you enjoy it, I can't change your mind. But I sure as hell can disagree.

And by the way, X6 may be the toughest X-series game, but it is a long way from being the most sadistic Mega Man game.  That title, far and away, goes to Powered Up.

Make that thread. Right now. I want to read it.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on February 26, 2012, 11:21:41 PM
The least they could've done is just given the air dash to regular X and scrapped the Falcon Armor altogether, but they decided to wait until X8 to do that.

Actually that started in X7, though its easy to forget since nobody plays that.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 26, 2012, 11:25:58 PM
Well..I like X8 mostly due to it's soundtrack and Zero's weapons >3>
That's where my enjoyment comes from.And some of the boss battles. For me it's gennerally hard to enjoy something. The games I enjoyed the most get replayed by me the most....I've played each of the X games once (besides X1 which I can replay any day without getting tired of it)
There was literaly nothing for me to return to after playing the rest once...
Unfortunately music is another area where it falls short for me. Its nice, but only a few tunes stood out to me. Jakob, both Sigma battle themes, Lumine's themes, and Vile's theme I guess. The other stage themes are somewhat forgettable. im of the midn that X8 relies way too much on sounding like rock music with guitars and such, and ends up just feeling hollow. Or maybe I just dont like the guitar type they use for everything.

Zero's weapons WERE nice. So were Axl's. I loved the ice gatling. X however, got sort of shafted, as almost all of his weapons are useless unless he's grounded, or just kind of useless/cumbersome in general.


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The least they could've done is just given the air dash to regular X and scrapped the Falcon Armor altogether, but they decided to wait until X8 to do that.
X7 started that, as RMZX just stated.

That is however something I am against. Mainly because the usual point of how X works is that he has little mobility, and requires his armors in order to gain extra mobility like the air dash. Having it from the start makes the leg parts obsolete without giving them better more creative functions, which X7 and 8 sort of failed at, since the glide was all sorts of stupid and giving you a shadow dash dont quite cut it.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 26, 2012, 11:31:43 PM
Unfortunately music is another area where it falls short for me. Its nice, but only a few tunes stood out to me. Jakob, both Sigma battle themes, Lumine's themes, and Vile's theme I guess. The other stage themes are somewhat forgettable. im of the midn that X8 relies way too much on sounding like rock music with guitars and such, and ends up just feeling hollow. Or maybe I just dont like the guitar type they use for everything.

Aw come on, don't tell me you didn't like the Missile Base themes. Especially when you board the Ride Armor. That was awesome!

Zero's weapons WERE nice. So were Axl's. I loved the ice gatling. X however, got sort of shafted, as almost all of his weapons are useless unless he's grounded, or just kind of useless/cumbersome in general.

The ground crystal move for X is necessary to find some of Zero's weapons and other knick-knacks throughout the stages. The others are barely memorable, and you're better off just sticking with X's charged shots to clear the screen. I'm glad they buffed his charge shot this time around. Much more effective than in the PSX games.

That is however something I am against. Mainly because the usual point of how X works is that he has little mobility, and requires his armors in order to gain extra mobility like the air dash. Having it from the start makes the leg parts obsolete without giving them better more creative functions, which X7 and 8 sort of failed at, since the glide was all sorts of stupid and giving you a shadow dash dont quite cut it.

That's irrelevant, since air-dashing (and double-jumping) had become standard for Zero even before X7, and now that him and Axl have it by default, it'd be stupid to not let X have it.

Besides, it's not like air-dashing is the end-all-be-all of mobility upgrades in the X games. They can come up with more stuff for leg upgrades if they even tried a little bit to be creative.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on February 27, 2012, 12:01:16 AM
That's irrelevant, since air-dashing (and double-jumping) had become standard for Zero even before X7

Yeah, in X6. X5 he had Air Dash by Default but still had to obtain the Double Jump.

Axl is a newer reploid, and while this isn't that big of a deal normally, its a good excuse as to why he has Air Dash by default.

X I can assume finally integrated the Air Dash into his systems in X7 despite choosing to be some pacifist wuss.

Having it from the start makes the leg parts obsolete without giving them better more creative functions, which X7 and 8 sort of failed at, since the glide was all sorts of stupid and giving you a shadow dash dont quite cut it.
I'm not even really sure what X8's leg parts do (I thought Shadow Dash was part of the Ultimate Armor.) so I can't really comment on that.
X7's glide was extremely helpful when it came to A) Eliminating any need to play as Axl and B) Skipping large parts of levels, other than that it was really a little too slow.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 27, 2012, 12:08:32 AM
Yes, Zero and Axl have Air dash by default, but they dont get armors. X does. And they have to do things. X1 gave him dash, X2-4 gave him air dash, X5 and 6 evolved and gave free flight and a multidirectional mach dash, (which lets you hover in mid air until you let go of the button) but X7 which gave him air dash by default, went backwards and gave him a not so great glide, and X8 just gave him a higher jump, and a shadow dash.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Da Dood on February 27, 2012, 12:10:51 AM
X6 is one of my guilty pleasures in gaming. I gotta admit that back then I was in a serious Mega Man vibe and would play the hell out of anything they released in the series. Maybe it'd be a different story had I played it one year later.

I guess the fact that the engine and controls are the same as X4 and X5 made me feel right at home.

I don't bother arguing about technical stuff in X6 because it's obviously not a well designed game. My runs usually boil down to unlocking Zero, doing everything until Shadow Armor is available, then alternating the two. Sometimes I only collect the essential stuff and go straight to High Max, sometimes I get UH ranks. I like the options there. Nightmare system is dumb, but usually there's a least annoying effect that I can take advantage.

And I love the X8 soundtrack, even bought it from Japanland. :D

X8 Hermes Leg also allows him to run faster, by the way.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 27, 2012, 12:11:07 AM
Aw come on, don't tell me you didn't like the Missile Base themes. Especially when you board the Ride Armor. That was awesome!
Can't argue with that.

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The ground crystal move for X is necessary to find some of Zero's weapons and other knick-knacks throughout the stages. The others are barely memorable, and you're better off just sticking with X's charged shots to clear the screen. I'm glad they buffed his charge shot this time around. Much more effective than in the PSX games.
Charged Crystal Wall is essentially Rush Search X, which I feel is one of the worst ideas to hit Mega Man.  It's somewhat less insulting in X8 because you're not relegating a whole character to such a useless and unwieldy function, but it's still moronic.  Hiding crap in invisible spots in the ground only works when your method of uncovering them is fast and is not limited by ammunition.

I wouldn't call grinding for Nightmare Souls and forcing you to reload saved games to save a corrupted Reploid here and there "perfected", but it's a little better than how X5 handled it. And as rewarding as that secret info cutscene was, inadvertently collecting 3000 souls to get it--and then removing High Max from the secret areas--wasn't the best way to do it.
No gaming perfectionist expects to not grind or hit the reset button occasionally.  As far as killed Reploids go, most of them don't hold anything.  For practical purposes the only things at risk are Speedster, D. Converter, one Life Up (out of 16), and one Energy Up (out of 8 ).  None of that is vital, nor does it come CLOSE to the amount of crap that is absolutely impossible to obtain in X5.  As for rank, PA rank is perfectly reasonable to clear the game with and I hit it today by my fifth investigator (it helps to know Dynamo's weakness, but I hadn't deliberately camped him).  

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Isn't defense merely a factor who rescues more Reploids and collect life-ups with?
Nope.  Any of X's armors reduce his damage by half (besides Shadow they also reduce his weapon energy consumption by 1/4).  Zero (red) takes the same damage as unarmored X.  If you want to counter that, you have to blow a slot on the Shock Buffer part.

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Also, Zero's Z-buster is stronger than X's standard buster while X's saber is much weaker than Zero's. Sure, you can only fire the Z-buster when you're standing, but you can still take out a wider range of enemies in midair in a single swipe of the Z-saber than X can, making short work of mid-bosses and the like, so it hardly matters.
The Z-Buster is awesome, but it is also situational.  It specializes either against bosses (kinda like the Gaea buster) or at point-blank range (where it would otherwise have been redundant with the saber).  For distance attacks against standard enemies, it's actually rather weak.

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The saber does like 5-10 hits of chip damage whereas X does 1-2.
So Zero's better with the saber than X, shocker.

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Oh, and get this: the Z-buster is devastating against High Max, whereas the X-buster only manages to stun him. Evidently just hitting him with Zero's saber is enough to do damage to him, whereas X's doesn't even do damage. Same deal with the Blade Armor. How [tornado fang]ing retarded is that? So you can't even blame me for fighting High-Max with regular X (and even if you did, I'd point you to the name of the game).
You need to actually test this stuff before you go spouting it off.  As either character, High Max must be stunned first, then damaged (unless in the secret-routes battle he is low on health and uses his spread-shot, then you can skip stunning him).  As X, you stun with the charged buster, then damage with a special weapon.  As Zero, you stun with a special weapon, then damage with a normal attack (although the Ensuizan can count as both, it still has to hit twice).

X has quite a few methods of putting High Max to shame in ways that Zero is nowhere near capable of (and even the Z-Buster only works if you stun him at ground level, which is not always possible, and generally more trouble than it's worth).  Mach Dash and Guard Shell for one, bizarre as it is.  Shadow Armor's charged saber wails on him as it does pretty much everybody, and High Max is absolutely WRECKED by the Nova Strike (and I know what you're thinking, everybody is, but High Max is about as weak to it as Metal Man is to his own weapon).

"Vanilla" X is also able to bypass High Max's shield in the Gate's Lab fight by firing point-blank, something that Falcon and Blade armors are not capable of.

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I'd much rather just use vanilla X with some parts equipped, but clearly the game doesn't want me to do that, because certain stages require greater mobility than he's capable of in order for me to progress and not die. Central Museum is one example. The least they could've done is just given the air dash to regular X and scrapped the Falcon Armor altogether, but they decided to wait until X8 to do that.

I mean, besides the game being called Mega Man X. That reasoning is just a step away from being the optional unlockable. >.>
Falcon X is still X.  You're supposed to be familiar with what you're up against before you forsake what was given to you at the title screen.  If you're not, and it bites you in the ass, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

There is not a single obstacle in the entire game that cannot be cleared with unarmored X, you just need to know what weapons and parts are best used to compensate for the lack of armor.

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And the general game design. They do literally throw [parasitic bomb] at you that you couldn't have possibly seen coming.

If it's not unfair, it's probably just put there to have no effect but annoy and frustrate you, despite your best efforts. Those [tornado fang]ing mosquitos, man. During Blaze Heatnix's stage, no less. And how about that stupid blackout rave party effect? [tornado fang] the Nightmare System.
The Nightmare System is annoying as hell, but it's also predictable and easily manipulated.

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You can't even beat the game with just X because of how the Gate stages are designed
XD
You, sir, surprise me.  I thought one as stubborn as yourself would be more determined than that.  There is NO REASON you should not be able to clear Gate's Lab unarmored.  I've done it, and I never once played any mode BUT Xtreme, so if you're looking for bragging rights, you have a ways to go.

Quote
Make that thread. Right now. I want to read it.
An 8-boss teleporter room with absolutely no health restores.  X6 was never that crazy.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on February 27, 2012, 12:11:23 AM
Yes, Zero and Axl have Air dash by default, but they dont get armors. X does. And they have to do things. X1 gave him dash, X2-4 gave him air dash, X5 and 6 evolved and gave free flight and a multidirectional mach dash, (which lets you hover in mid air until you let go of the button) but X7 which gave him air dash by default, went backwards and gave him a not so great glide, and X8 just gave him a higher jump, and a shadow dash.

I might be the minority here, but I would personally like to see either the Mach Dash or X3's Vertical Air Dash return, Mach Dash probably more since it was a lot more useable than the PSX Air Dash.
X4's Armor also gave us a rather worthless hover move that lasted for 2 seconds.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Sigma Zero X on February 27, 2012, 12:22:21 AM
As far as Megaman X8's soundtrack goes, I really like it because it sounds excellent.  Me loving rock and metal music makes the soundtrack more meaningful.  I like Real Sigma's theme, Lumine's second form boss song, Paradise Lost, Jakob, Vile's boss theme , Angry Boss, and the ride armor theme at Pandamonium's stage the most.

Yeti's stage is worse, it has a bunch of crappy ways to die, and you NEED both characters to survive if you want that armor piece (Zero and X)

why do you have to get killed for touching a wall? why cant they just move you over a bit when you hit it? (like when the Stingray ship appears the 2nd time)

Finally someone besides me who says that Yeti's stage is harder than Manowar's.  I can beat Manowar's as long as I have weapon chips equipped and it is very short (I usually beat it in less than a minute.)  For Yeti's stage on Hard, I had to use X and Alia because the shot ranges of Zero, Layer, Axl, and Pallette were too close.  X and Alia were versatile for having regular and charged shots.  I did not have a problem with dodging the obstacles though.

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Actually that started in X7, though its easy to forget since nobody plays that.

Actually, I still play Megaman X7.

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That is however something I am against. Mainly because the usual point of how X works is that he has little mobility, and requires his armors in order to gain extra mobility like the air dash. Having it from the start makes the leg parts obsolete without giving them better more creative functions, which X7 and 8 sort of failed at, since the glide was all sorts of stupid and giving you a shadow dash dont quite cut it.

I'll admit that the glide ability was not too useful, but it was effective against Ride Boarski's fierce ram attack at Crimson Palace on Hard, especially when he does it four times in a row while Boarski's health is low.

The Shadow Dash from X8 is definitely useless against physical contact, grounded attacks (e.g., Antonion's blocks or Trilobyte's Crystal Wall), and attacks from swords (e.g., Sigma's sword attacks).  However, it does help against projectile attacks and I can hold the dash button to make the invincibility last a little longer since X's dash is quite good.  Of course the timing is everything (which I am also good at doing.)

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I'm not even really sure what X8's leg parts do (I thought Shadow Dash was part of the Ultimate Armor.) so I can't really comment on that.

Foot Parts I allows X to jump higher.  It is a double-edged sword, but I managed it by tapping the jump button softly to jump lower or pressing the jump button harder to jump higher.

Foot Parts H allows X to move faster and have the "invincible" shadow dash (the shadow dash which I just discussed in this post as well.)

Foot Parts U (part of the Ultimate Armor) has all of the abilities of Foot Parts I and Foots Parts H.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 27, 2012, 06:37:52 AM
Charged Crystal Wall is essentially Rush Search X, which I feel is one of the worst ideas to hit Mega Man.  It's somewhat less insulting in X8 because you're not relegating a whole character to such a useless and unwieldy function, but it's still moronic.  Hiding crap in invisible spots in the ground only works when your method of uncovering them is fast and is not limited by ammunition.

I wouldn't say that. If you look closely at the ground, you'll notice certain giveaways that tell you there's something buried in there.

No gaming perfectionist expects to not grind or hit the reset button occasionally.

Doesn't mean it should be built into the design! Especially to the degree that X6 does it.

Nope.  Any of X's armors reduce his damage by half (besides Shadow they also reduce his weapon energy consumption by 1/4).  Zero (red) takes the same damage as unarmored X.  If you want to counter that, you have to blow a slot on the Shock Buffer part.

I'm speaking from the perspective of unarmored X, so basically they're equal unless one collects more life-ups and Reploids with Life+ parts than the other. Doesn't Black Zero also increase Zero's defense?

The Z-Buster is awesome, but it is also situational.  It specializes either against bosses (kinda like the Gaea buster) or at point-blank range (where it would otherwise have been redundant with the saber).  For distance attacks against standard enemies, it's actually rather weak.

Point is it actually proves stronger at point-blank than X's. Even as much to damage High Max more than any other weapon.

So Zero's better with the saber than X, shocker.

My point is it could use some more chip damage hits.

You need to actually test this stuff before you go spouting it off.  As either character, High Max must be stunned first, then damaged (unless in the secret-routes battle he is low on health and uses his spread-shot, then you can skip stunning him).  As X, you stun with the charged buster, then damage with a special weapon.  As Zero, you stun with a special weapon, then damage with a normal attack (although the Ensuizan can count as both, it still has to hit twice).

Looks like I misremembered. Sorry about that.

That being said, the Ensuizan is thusly broken. And actually, so is the power of almost any of his techniques against High Max: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHCTEefO9SY&feature=related

Wow! I had to work way harder than that to beat High Max as unarmored X.

X has quite a few methods of putting High Max to shame in ways that Zero is nowhere near capable of (and even the Z-Buster only works if you stun him at ground level, which is not always possible, and generally more trouble than it's worth).

It's not as hard as you think (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Eih4UCIdk), and well worth it.

Mach Dash and Guard Shell for one, bizarre as it is.  Shadow Armor's charged saber wails on him as it does pretty much everybody, and High Max is absolutely WRECKED by the Nova Strike (and I know what you're thinking, everybody is, but High Max is about as weak to it as Metal Man is to his own weapon).

I'm gonna discount armors gained by cheat codes, but you're right. Shadow Armor's charged hit makes the fight a joke. Even moreso than with Zero. It's almost like using his Z-buster in midair, just less powerful. The Blade Armor doesn't compare.

"Vanilla" X is also able to bypass High Max's shield in the Gate's Lab fight by firing point-blank, something that Falcon and Blade armors are not capable of.

So I've discovered. 6 charged shots to breach his shield, which isn't saying much compared to the Shadow Armor's charged saber or even the Blade Armor's phase-through-matter shot followed by a Flame Sword wave. Nevertheless, I just managed to get through Gate Lab 2 (crossing that normally impassable pit by using the oldest trick in the book) and hand both High Max and Gate their asses with unarmored X. After much repetition, but victorious nonetheless.

Falcon X is still X.  You're supposed to be familiar with what you're up against before you forsake what was given to you at the title screen.  If you're not, and it bites you in the ass, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I'm not interested in using dumbed down, rehashed armors from previous games, and I'm not excusing the game giving regular X certain handicaps.

There is not a single obstacle in the entire game that cannot be cleared with unarmored X, you just need to know what weapons and parts are best used to compensate for the lack of armor.

Again, so I've found out. I still had to cheat to get to High Max, but it's a time-honored cheat in Mega Man lore.

The Nightmare System is annoying as hell, but it's also predictable and easily manipulated.

How do you manipulate your way through darkened areas or render those mosquitos helplessly benign?

XD
You, sir, surprise me.  I thought one as stubborn as yourself would be more determined than that.  There is NO REASON you should not be able to clear Gate's Lab unarmored.  I've done it, and I never once played any mode BUT Xtreme, so if you're looking for bragging rights, you have a ways to go.

Oh, I've earned my bragging right. I just had to cheat, and you probably did too. Got the helmet part for the Shadow Armor the same way.

An 8-boss teleporter room with absolutely no health restores.  X6 was never that crazy.

Is that all?

I might be the minority here, but I would personally like to see either the Mach Dash or X3's Vertical Air Dash return, Mach Dash probably more since it was a lot more useable than the PSX Air Dash.
X4's Armor also gave us a rather worthless hover move that lasted for 2 seconds.

Seconded. We may be in the minority, but we're better.

I'd like the Mach Dash more if you didn't stop in mid-air and you couldn't trigger it like a double jump. Reason for the former is so the developer doesn't get the idea of making an obstacle traversable only by the Mach Dash and only with pixel-perfect accuracy. Reason for the latter is because it's jarring.

HX in the ZX games perfected how air-dashing should feel. I wonder why it took them so long.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 27, 2012, 09:35:37 AM
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How do you manipulate your way through darkened areas or render those mosquitos helplessly benign?

By doing a different stage beforehand.

The blinds are Mijinion's nightmare effect, and the fleas... I have no idea. Go to another stage and clear/leave it. (possibly only clearing it works, not sure)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Da Dood on February 27, 2012, 03:04:25 PM
The insects are Commander Yammark's effect.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on February 27, 2012, 09:35:33 PM
Just how does the effect work? I'm dumb and never looked closely enough to figure out the connection, apart from the more obvious randomly generated stage sections (what the [tornado fang] who thought that was a good idea??)
Basically after playing some given stage, a specific effect appears in stages that are marked in red?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Da Dood on February 27, 2012, 09:57:21 PM
Yeah, every stage has one Nightmare effect that affects generally two other stages. When you beat Shield Sheldon's level, for example, it'll trigger X/Zero hologram enemies in two other stages (marked red on the area select screen). The holograms will replace whatever other effect that was happening in those stages before you visited Shield's.

Every stage is affected by more than one Nightmare effect, so you can manipulate the system to deal with the less painful effects.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 27, 2012, 10:40:44 PM
What are the nightmare effects for all stages anyways?

the only ones i know are...

Heatnix & Sheldoner - Dragonflies
Turtloid, Yammark & Minjion - Light problem
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on February 27, 2012, 11:21:52 PM
Do the effects go away once they're not marked in red or do they stay once toggled on?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Da Dood on February 27, 2012, 11:54:44 PM
Pretty sure they stay on until you change them somewhere else.

Yammark's effect is insects (affects Heatnix and Sheldon)
Heatnix's effect is fireballs (affects Wolfang and Mijinion)
Sheldon's effect is holograms (affects Wolfang and Turtloid)
Wolfang's effect is icy floor (affects Metal Shark)
Turtloid's effect is rain (affects Yammark and Scaravich)
Metal Shark's effect is metal blocks (affects Heatnix, Mijinion and Scaravich)
Mijinion's effect is the stupid spotlight (affects Yammark and Turtloid)
Scaravich's effect is the weird colored blocks (affects Metal Shark and Sheldon)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 28, 2012, 12:24:08 AM
And they can all be destroyed by their respective Maverick weapons ...

Not that you'd know "mosquito" translates to "Use Yammar Option" or "metallic block" translates to "Metal Anchor", so it's still pure guesswork. I figured the game was [tornado fang]ing with me when there was a metallic block obstructing the very small corridor leading up to the Shadow Armor part. Eventually I came upon the Metal Anchor and got through, so I didn't ended up bashing my head into the television.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on February 28, 2012, 01:09:59 AM
Heatnix's effect is fireballs (affects Mijinion)
Wolfang's effect is icy floor (affects Metal Shark)
Turtloid's effect is rain (affects Yammark)

Hmmm, I've never had these happen before....
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 28, 2012, 01:45:11 AM
IMO X6 was a bit too ambitious with what it wanted to do. I recall they originally wanted the Nightmare system to randomize stage layout didnt they? In the end, they ended up with minor stage alterations and gimmicks. kinda sad. Imagine the game actually altering stage layouts more radically, or actually making random level designs? [parasitic bomb] would be awesome. Though im not sure just how possible that even is.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 28, 2012, 01:58:35 AM
Well, Scaravich's level sorta-kinda does that, not only with its random courses, but with some random block placement within each course.  Not one of my favorite levels, though.

*stuff*
I'm not sure what you define as "cheating" to get around as unarmored X, but the only time I had to do ANYTHING that I consider a physics exploit (which was cancelling air momentum to reset your jumping arc) is the pit in Yammark's alternate route, and there's actually nothing there except the Dynamo boss room.  No reploids or items of any sort, and no other obstacle in the game requires that.  Certainly not Shadow Armor's helmet.

Why should unarmored X be Zero's equal?  X has armor.  Zero doesn't.  If the game were balanced as you suggest, Zero would be underpowered.

It might be worth mentioning that while the Falcon Armor's abilities were overall nerfed, it was given the ability to charge special weapons, which it cannot do in X5.

Your High Max video says nothing; as I said earlier the Z-Buster is situational.  When I said "more trouble than it's worth", I meant to rely on it.  To seize the opportunity when it arises, that is something else entirely.  But it's all a moot point, because the Z-Buster has NOTHING on the Blade Armor when it comes to fighting High Max.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?MegaManX6_8boss_2314
Part 15, 1:43
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 28, 2012, 05:10:44 AM
EDIT: Oh hey you guys might like this (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF54F6B62B54A534A&feature=plcp). You can skip to the No Dash Boss Rush clips for the really good stuff, but whatever you do, read the video descriptions.

I'm not sure what you define as "cheating" to get around as unarmored X, but the only time I had to do ANYTHING that I consider a physics exploit (which was cancelling air momentum to reset your jumping arc) is the pit in Yammark's alternate route, and there's actually nothing there except the Dynamo boss room.  No reploids or items of any sort, and no other obstacle in the game requires that.  Certainly not Shadow Armor's helmet.

That's exactly it. Manipulating your air time by pressing start and using weapons that cancel your momentum. I hope you didn't forget that one part in the Gate Stages where there was a huge pit meant only to be crossed by Zero, the Blade Armor, or the Falcon Armor. Neither unarmored X nor Shadow Armor can air-dash, and you can't just make a dash jump off the side of the platform because there's another upside-down platform in your way. So as either of them--even with Speedster and Jumper parts--you have to cheat.

Why should unarmored X be Zero's equal?  X has armor.  Zero doesn't.  If the game were balanced as you suggest, Zero would be underpowered.

And we wouldn't want that.  8)

Between X's greater mobility but weaker strength with the X buster and Zero's greater strength but less mobility with the Z-buster, it sort of balances out. It's just weird that between the ranged expert and the melee expert, it's the melee expert with a stronger ranged attack than the ranged expert. I know Zero wrecked Vile's first Ride suit in X1 with a single shot, but the series has come a long (although not necessarily great) way since then, and I'd imagine X's buster has come to either match or exceed Zero's while he excels with the saber, not have Zero excel at both while X compensates with armors. Call it nitpicking if you like, but I just don't like the PSX games for the most part.

It might be worth mentioning that while the Falcon Armor's abilities were overall nerfed, it was given the ability to charge special weapons, which it cannot do in X5.

Seems like an unnecessary break with tradition, especially to recycle a second armor, along with the Ultimate Armor, and to keep regular X's basic start abilities from changing.

Your High Max video says nothing; as I said earlier the Z-Buster is situational.  When I said "more trouble than it's worth", I meant to rely on it.  To seize the opportunity when it arises, that is something else entirely.  But it's all a moot point, because the Z-Buster has NOTHING on the Blade Armor when it comes to fighting High Max.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?MegaManX6_8boss_2314
Part 15, 1:43

It said exactly what I wanted to say: The Z-buster is buffed. Even in the High Max fight, you could time almost any of Zero's techniques at just the right time to stun High Max at ground level. Then use the Metal Sword to destroy the barrier and squeeze off a quick shot. Even with X, you could time his charged shot just right (or jump right in front of his shield) and have it phase through the shield to make contact with High Max. It's a physics glitch, and no one is supposed to figure it that out, but there you go. This doesn't count how effective the Z-buster is against any other enemy, but that's moot anyways since you can just slash their face in half or dice them up using that insane saber cancel exploit. Zero's broken, but I'm not asking for him to be underpowered or for X to so much surpass him (what, like that's bad now? karma chameleon, [sonic slicer]!) as get a little buffed in relation. An air-dash here, an extra chip of damage there, that's all. The game's still made for Zero or the armors anyways, but I don't think it's asking for much to at least make the game a little more beatable with X without resorting to cheating. Veteran no-armor X gamers would expect that much at least.

It's Part 14, not 15.

How the hell is anyone supposed to figure out the Mach Dash was even capable of harming High Max after being stunned, much less being that powerful? Aside from the two obvious weapons and a Giga Attack you have already? I'm not impressed by the astounding lack of sense the game design has.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 28, 2012, 06:42:34 AM
Quote
I hope you didn't forget that one part in the Gate Stages where there was a huge pit meant only to be crossed by Zero, the Blade Armor, or the Falcon Armor.

All you need is jumper.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 28, 2012, 07:10:13 AM
I beg to differ. Unless you mean to tell me I just had to be right above the pixel cutoff line for death before I kicked off to the other side? If so, I'd like to see video of that.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on February 28, 2012, 07:12:16 AM
I beg to differ. Unless you mean to tell me I just had to be right above the pixel cutoff line for death before I kicked off to the other side? If so, I'd like to see video of that.

How the hell do you think people get to Gate with the Shadow Armor?

Hard Jump =/= Impossible Jump.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 28, 2012, 07:13:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvNv2E9k6Ic

0:52

EDIT: that's hyper dash, not jumper. My bad. Still, all you need is that part for X.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 28, 2012, 07:39:49 AM
Huh. Well I stand corrected then.

Never actually went looking for video of Shadow Armor vs. Gate, so it never occurred to me that it was even possible. This basically means that if you happen to lose the Reploid that has the jumper Hyper Dash part, you can't complete the game with either X or Shadow Armor, so you'll just have to use another armor/character.

Hang on, can the Shadow Armor even equip Jumper? Didn't look like it from the video. So you do have to cheat with that one.
According to the uploader, just Speedster is enough for the Shadow Armor.

Be that as it may, I still think it asks a bit much from the player to figure that jump is even doable, much less get it on the first try. It's a definite beginner's trap.

EDIT: It's worth noting that the video author also bothered to preface those strategies with actually impossible jumps, which pretty much just underlines the absurdity of this game's design.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 28, 2012, 07:58:46 AM
Nobody is saying it isn't a bad idea. Just that it's not impossible with normal X.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on February 28, 2012, 03:48:16 PM
Never actually went looking for video of Shadow Armor vs. Gate, so it never occurred to me that it was even possible. This basically means that if you happen to lose the Reploid that has the jumper Hyper Dash part, you can't complete the game with either X or Shadow Armor, so you'll just have to use another armor/character.

Hypershell mentioned earlier that only certain parts can be lost forever.  Hyper Dash isn't one of them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcmpO3CDcOE)

How the hell is anyone supposed to figure out the Mach Dash was even capable of harming High Max after being stunned, much less being that powerful? Aside from the two obvious weapons and a Giga Attack you have already? I'm not impressed by the astounding lack of sense the game design has.

The Blade Armor has numerous ways to defeat High Max.  The Guard Shell dash method is just one of many.  Sure, some take longer than others, but that's to be expected.

Neither unarmored X nor Shadow Armor can air-dash, and you can't just make a dash jump off the side of the platform because there's another upside-down platform in your way. So as either of them--even with Speedster and Jumper parts--you have to cheat.

Taking advangtage of a game's mechanics isn't cheating.  Cheating involves violating the rules of the game, such as using outside enhancements (i.e. Gamesharks).

Here's the thing, when you select normal X on the character select screen, you lose the right to complain about difficulty (especially on Xtreme mode).  You pretty much ask for the game to throw everything it has at you, knowing that you're using a character with obvious limitations.  Yes, normal X is capable of getting every part in the game on his own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be a cakewalk.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 28, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
Here's the thing, when you select normal X on the character select screen, you lose the right to complain about difficulty (especially on Xtreme mode).  You pretty much ask for the game to throw everything it has at you, knowing that you're using a character with obvious limitations.  Yes, normal X is capable of getting every part in the game on his own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be a cakewalk.

Nothing justifies absurd game design. Not Even Unarmored X.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on February 29, 2012, 02:15:38 AM
I imagine now I know what a dog-hater would think of Mega Man 3's level design...

That's exactly it. Manipulating your air time by pressing start and using weapons that cancel your momentum. I hope you didn't forget that one part in the Gate Stages where there was a huge pit meant only to be crossed by Zero, the Blade Armor, or the Falcon Armor. Neither unarmored X nor Shadow Armor can air-dash, and you can't just make a dash jump off the side of the platform because there's another upside-down platform in your way. So as either of them--even with Speedster and Jumper parts--you have to cheat.
What I find most hilarious about this entire thread is that Zero isn't even capable of reaching that pit.

Anyways, as we established above, Hyper Dash alone gets you through, albeit with some precision.  Adding Jumper to the mix makes it [acid burst]-simple.  And it is absolutely impossible to permanently lose either one of them.

Quote
it's the melee expert with a stronger ranged attack than the ranged expert.
You know, most Zero fans argue the inverse when they get one look at Shadow Armor's charged saber.  With good reason, too.

And unlike your argument, that one isn't specific to bosses.

Quote
How the hell is anyone supposed to figure out the Mach Dash was even capable of harming High Max after being stunned, much less being that powerful? Aside from the two obvious weapons and a Giga Attack you have already? I'm not impressed by the astounding lack of sense the game design has.
...do I REALLY need to explain why expecting Mega Man series weaknesses to make sense leads to disappointment?

But what the hell, I'll bite:  High Max is not supposed to be defeated easily, so it actually makes sense that his most critical weaknesses are unconventional.  The intent is that you are fighting an enemy who is immensely more powerful than you.  The game literally states that the odds against him being defeated are 5000:1.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 29, 2012, 03:04:27 AM
Anyways, as we established above, Hyper Dash alone gets you through, albeit with some precision.  Adding Jumper to the mix makes it [acid burst]-simple.  And it is absolutely impossible to permanently lose either one of them.

Whatever. It's still an unnecessary, but intentional crucial derail from the main objective in order to find two parts in separate ends of bum-[tornado fang]ing nowhere in the game. Never in the history of mainstream Mega Man games has something like that been made necessary, for players who just want to do a dry no-upgrades run with X, in order to progress all the way to the end of the game. But hey, why start there when we could start at the entrance of Gate Stage 1 or against the Nightmare Mother? Even Ground Scaravich's stage is guilty of this, but some recourse can be found in the random swapping of stage layouts between teleports.

You know, most Zero fans argue the inverse when they get one look at Shadow Armor's charged saber.  With good reason, too.

And unlike your argument, that one isn't specific to bosses.

So you agree that the abilities of both characters are somewhat misplaced? Or that I'm not alone in thinking that?

That being said, charging sabers seems more befitting of X than it does of Zero, assuming you'd allow X to have a saber in the first place.

...do I REALLY need to explain why expecting Mega Man series weaknesses to make sense leads to disappointment?

Considering we've been trained to expect to find the right weakness in a set of boss weapons, the last thing any Mega Man gamer would expect to be strong against an enemy is a mobility move. It's outlandish, far-fetched, and just stupid.

But what the hell, I'll bite:  High Max is not supposed to be defeated easily, so it actually makes sense that his most critical weaknesses are unconventional.  The intent is that you are fighting an enemy who is immensely more powerful than you.  The game literally states that the odds against him being defeated are 5000:1.

He's so powerful, he can be taken down in a matter of seconds by dashing at or in front of him. Truly he's a force to be reckoned with.

You know, his fight pattern is arguably the easiest in the game. Sure, he's got a hard shell and hits like a [chameleon sting]er, but once you find the right combination to breach his defenses, it becomes a simple rinse-and-repeat endurance match followed by a slightly different endurance match. Never tell me the odds, I guess, because odds are they'll be wrong. It isn't hard to dodge his DESS POOP spheres unless you swear off dashing, and even then it's still more doable than dealing with the Nightmare Mother or that leap of faith. The shield he puts up can either be destroyed or clipped through before he ever puts it to use, and in the case of his first match, you can just stand there against the wall as he tries to DESS POOP you in the face, but to know avail. Stun, hit, and off you go.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Sigma Zero X on February 29, 2012, 05:07:56 AM
Okay, since the thread is about High Max right now, I want to ask a question.  Between High Max and Sigma, who is the harder boss? 
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Police Girl on February 29, 2012, 05:20:15 AM
Neither of them are particularly tough, High Max is easy once you know how to beat him, and Sigma is a joke.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 29, 2012, 05:57:41 AM
Sigma is a slowass weakling in his first form, and immobile in his second. Therefore he is the easier boss. Highmax likes to move around a bit more, and then go into a loop where he keeps firing that sphere at you repeatedly.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on February 29, 2012, 06:47:24 AM
Hell Sigma's more of a tricky [sonic slicer] to kill, thanks to the spiked platform that shoves you around in mid air and the tricky timing it takes to dodge the green vertical beams. There's a chance you'll get royally screwed as regular X if Sigma fires that devastating concussion bomb at ground level, and you don't have a jumper part or Sigma's floating platform to use. I guess if you're playing as anyone else, Hell Sigma is easier, but then so is High Max.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on February 29, 2012, 07:14:26 AM
I know Zero can defeat Hell Sigma easily with his regular jump swing + Shield Sheldon's shield. Havent gotten to him as unarmored X yet though. got stuck on Heatnix's stage some time ago and havent really gone back to it yet.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on March 01, 2012, 01:37:38 AM
Really depends on who you're playing as.  Zero and Shadow Armor X may not be any slouch against High Max, but they make Sigma look absolutely pathetic.

So you agree that the abilities of both characters are somewhat misplaced? Or that I'm not alone in thinking that?

That being said, charging sabers seems more befitting of X than it does of Zero, assuming you'd allow X to have a saber in the first place.
The latter.  I, personally, don't find it all that odd that a limited set of either upgrades or situations on one character could be "stronger" than the character who has the better overall performance with the weapon.

Oh, and one more thing about buster performance: Overdrive.  X's version (it's the same regardless of armor) kicks the absolute crap out of Zero's, and makes *ANY* grounded boss not named High Max or Gate a complete joke.  When you combine that with the fact that Shadow Armor's saber pretty much rapes anything that doesn't have a mercy barrier, you have an engine of destruction that makes the Ultimate Armor look fairly balanced by comparison.

It's true that no other game throws out the same obstacles that X6 does, but no other game gives you the potential to become as insanely powerful as X6 does, either.  The only one that comes close is Xtreme2.  Even unarmored X can be quite a juggernaut with 16 Life-Ups and UH rank.

Quote
Considering we've been trained to expect to find the right weakness in a set of boss weapons, the last thing any Mega Man gamer would expect to be strong against an enemy is a mobility move. It's outlandish, far-fetched, and just stupid.

He's so powerful, he can be taken down in a matter of seconds by dashing at or in front of him. Truly he's a force to be reckoned with.
...
Nah, too easy.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on March 01, 2012, 04:30:59 AM
Oh, and one more thing about buster performance: Overdrive.  X's version (it's the same regardless of armor) kicks the absolute crap out of Zero's, and makes *ANY* grounded boss not named High Max or Gate a complete joke.  When you combine that with the fact that Shadow Armor's saber pretty much rapes anything that doesn't have a mercy barrier, you have an engine of destruction that makes the Ultimate Armor look fairly balanced by comparison.

More than bursts of 5 Z-buster shots? I guess I'll take your word for it, since I'm done with X6 for the time being. I can at least see now why people consider it better than the Gaia Armor by far, but just because I'm a stubborn dick, I'd go with the more buster-centric armor.

It's true that no other game throws out the same obstacles that X6 does, but no other game gives you the potential to become as insanely powerful as X6 does, either.  The only one that comes close is Xtreme2.  Even unarmored X can be quite a juggernaut with 16 Life-Ups and UH rank.

Maybe, but considering Overdrive only lasts for 10 seconds, and getting 9999 souls to equip an extra stat-boost part is rather tedious, I just don't think it's worth it. But more on that once I decide to play X6 again for whatever reason.

...
Nah, too easy.

No, please. Speak your peace. I don't think my position is at all unreasonable.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on March 01, 2012, 06:24:49 AM
Maybe, but considering Overdrive only lasts for 10 seconds, and getting 9999 souls to equip an extra stat-boost part is rather tedious, I just don't think it's worth it. But more on that once I decide to play X6 again for whatever reason.

IIRC the stat-boost part is equippable after you get like 3000 souls.  5000 lets you equip a 3rd normal part, and 9999 lets you equip a 4th.  And yeah, Overdrive turns X into a little monster for 10 seconds.  Zero's Z-Buster burst shot doesn't hold a candle to X rapid-firing charge shots like it's nobody's business.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on March 01, 2012, 06:38:11 AM
Suddenly, memories of Xtreme 2.

I find it interesting how Ultimate buster breaks Shadow Armor's roof shooting ability, since he cant shoot normal shots. he does the animation, but nothing comes out.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on March 01, 2012, 07:48:49 AM
Suddenly, memories of Xtreme 2.

I find it interesting how Ultimate buster breaks Shadow Armor's roof shooting ability, since he cant shoot normal shots. he does the animation, but nothing comes out.

ELEET PROGRAMING
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on March 01, 2012, 08:25:38 AM
Eh, well ultimate buster disables regular shots, and that move shoots regular shots, so thats what happens. and since theres no charged version of that attack, its just something that happened as a consequence.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on March 01, 2012, 11:39:38 PM
Indeed.  Thankfully ceiling-sticking is a fairly useless maneuver anyway when you're immune to spikes, but that did kinda disappoint me.  Either way, the lack of saber-lag still makes Ultimate Buster a much better fit with Shadow Armor than it is with Blade Armor, which I swear it actually cripples.  There are, what, two enemies in the game that trigger the buster shot's effect without being immune to it?

Another fun oddity is the fact that using Overdrive with the Shadow Armor results in the saber SFX accompanying your charged shots.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on March 02, 2012, 03:42:56 AM
how exactly DOES the Blade Armor's pseudo plasma discharge work anyway? it appears at random.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: AquaTeamV3 on March 03, 2012, 04:41:09 AM
how exactly DOES the Blade Armor's pseudo plasma discharge work anyway? it appears at random.

The Blade Armor's ghetto plasma ability activates when you shoot a larger enemy.  It still isn't that useful because the shot is rather weak anyway, and the hits afterward don't really help much.  Power definitely isn't the Blade Armor's strong point, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on March 03, 2012, 05:05:03 AM
Unfortunately it's based on the enemy's type rather than their health, which means that Nightmares simply laugh at you.

You pretty much need rapid-fire and special weapons to use the Blade Armor effectively.  It's charged attacks, and even its Giga Attack, are just too weak.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Align on March 03, 2012, 11:52:16 AM
The charged saber is almost a decent weapon, isn't it?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on March 03, 2012, 03:31:29 PM
Yeah.  Almost.  Certainly fares better than the charged buster against Nightmares, although that's not saying much.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on July 01, 2012, 06:36:22 AM
Bump.

I am replaying Mega Man X6 and I am beginning to understand why some people hate the game. Some levels are not really well designed and it almost feels that Capcom is honestly trying to hard to make difficult game. X6 is boatloads better than its predecessor but at same time I wished that Capcom actually make the effort to make the game fun. Some levels are honestly irritating and require certain parts to use, the nightmare effects could had expanded upon even more, the bosses were to easy even with unarmored X and I really wish that they used the Xtreme2 system for parts. The game is irritating but in a good way although I understnad why this game is hated most fo the fans.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on July 11, 2012, 04:53:00 PM
It's not that they didnt put the effort into it, it's that it had a rushed production schedule from the start and is therefore, IMO, basically unfinished. Look at Heatnix's stage. After the first miniboss, you have this wonderful little section of stage. Which then suddenly and abruptly ends and drops you into another miniboss fight. If you take the alternate pathway, you go to a vertical climb that again, resembles more of some kind of stage. Those two parts are shining examples of what they could have done and probably wanted to do, but ultimately couldnt finish due to time constraints and therefore used minibosses as filler.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on July 11, 2012, 07:52:49 PM
I've always wondered why Shield Sheldon's stage is really short.

I think Turtloid has the 2nd worse stage, the rain drains your health, and there's like the Nightmare clones of the opposite character chasing you, and then there's a bunch of enemies..
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Gaia on July 11, 2012, 08:36:05 PM
I can clear that stage in under a minute. Sheesh, to add insult to injury, Sheldon's stage is one of the few good ones!
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on July 12, 2012, 02:01:23 AM
No, no it's not. :/ It's one of the most disappointing pieces of level design I've ever experienced. Coincidentally, it's also the shortest.

Even if you take the long way to the optional sub-boss (before which you can't really tell where the doors lead), prepare to bungle through a shitload of mirrors and an even shittier load of zip lines and Nightmares past the portal jump. The only neat thing about that stage was the hidden wall hiding the armor. I'm not sure what to think about having your character stop there and comment about the breeze in order to indicate you should go through the wall. That's probably a good idea, but then I think it could've been done a little more subtly rather than stopping you.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on July 12, 2012, 03:45:04 AM
I think the battle with Gate should have been SO much better, but they went with a cheap excuse of a boss.

He could have had all the investigator's moves
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on July 12, 2012, 04:24:48 AM
That would've made it more interesting. As it is, he's challenging and unique enough with his can-only-be-damaged-by-himself shtick, but throwing in a mechanic where he's constantly changing his weakness and his power might've been interesting. Moreso than Lumine 1st form anyways.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on July 12, 2012, 09:39:21 PM
The Gate fight was even worse when you had to worry about the [tornado fang]ing pit on top of it. I really wish the designers had mroe time with this game.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on July 13, 2012, 01:11:00 AM
I think the Gate fight is perfectly fine except for the fact that he may randomly decide to not attack you for a while.  That gets a little annoying.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Sylkebeach on August 10, 2012, 08:08:04 PM
Gate's the reason. It's because he is...

 O:< AS CRAZY AS A SQUIRREL WITH RABIES!!! O:<
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Ladd Spencer on August 22, 2012, 08:14:02 AM
Ah, Gate's stage. What, you need to not have jumper on but need to have hyperdash to do it as unarmored X?
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on August 22, 2012, 06:12:54 PM
You don't need Jumper. Just Hyper Dash. But Jumper doesnt hurt.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Ladd Spencer on August 22, 2012, 07:15:52 PM
Sometimes it does I think. You wind up hitting the wall a lot.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Waifu on August 23, 2012, 04:59:02 AM
But you need to get past the 'leap of faith'.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Ladd Spencer on August 23, 2012, 05:05:23 AM
Remember how awful it was before you knew no amount of effort could make up for being improperly equipped?

I feel that's one of the big things that gets X6 a lot of guff.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on September 01, 2012, 07:13:43 AM
Well, X6 *IS* more open than any other game in the series, so I can see how that would catch people off guard.  Knowing the game is built that way, though, it's one of the things I love about it.  It's not just that the game doesn't hold your hand in equipping you for the obstacles, but rather, the fact that the obstacles themselves have multiple solutions.  It makes you use your head, find the method that best suits your preferred equipment, and such.

Such obstacles are confined to the alternate paths, which are in no way required, and the game's final stretch, when other than your own short-sightedness you really have no excuse to NOT be properly equipped.  I pity those who play the game for the first time on X Collection, though.  On the PS1 you have the Start/Select/Load Previous Data option available to you at all times.  On X Collection, you damn well better save frequently, especially if you don't enjoy X5-part-collecting levels of suicide.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on September 03, 2012, 12:18:53 AM
You're making it sound like there are clever workarounds to certain obstacles. To me it was more like every iteration of a character could bypass the same obstacles their own way. With the Nightmare System, the obstacles they'd generate didn't sense make when trying to match them up to the weapon to deal with them. Why would an anchor destroy a solid steel block, or a shield shoo flies away? The idea is good, but there could've been much better ways to implement that system.

As for the leap of faith segment, anyone can surpass it without part upgrades except X, and people shouldn't be punished for using him. It's challenging enough, without a technically impassable segment, to not have all the features the armors or Zero afford, and there's absolutely no way for me to know I had to use either a Hyper Dash or a High Jump part. As a rule, the parts system should've been optional. Plus, I enjoy the simplicity of X's unarmored form. If I can't reach certain areas with him, that's fine as long as it's not in my way.

I don't know about X6 being the most open game. I thought X3 was pretty open. It had better hidden secrets and more interesting things to find than a bevy of part upgrades, like [tornado fang]ing Ride Armors. Yeah, the Frog one was slow and plodding, but 3 out of 4 good ones is pretty damn good.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on September 03, 2012, 01:51:51 AM
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people shouldn't be punished for using him
The game sets the standard in the Intro stage, by starting you with an armor. It isnt for shits and giggles, The game is telling you there that you will NEED armor for this game, and if you decide to not use them, then game isn't punishing you, you are punishing yourself by ignoring what the game has told you is required.

X5 starts you with an Armor too. It too, sets the bar, telling you that for that game, Armor is a default. You will require an Armor. And that Armored X will be your "default X".

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more interesting things to find
That's entirely subjective.

yeah Ride Armors were cool, but they didnt feel all THAT useful, since they were hindered by first off, finding a summoning platform, and secondly, if the stage allowed you to use it for more than a minute or two before you hit a door or small corridor.

And X6 meanwhile, has some pretty interesting parts. Ultimate Buster for one. X6 also includes special parts that can be used once per stage, like, overdrive.

Overdrive plus Ultimate Buster is the CLOSEST we will EVER get to Xtreme 2's levels of Ultimate Buster Godhood with X.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on September 03, 2012, 06:01:34 AM
Well, Trel, most of your complains you've already made earlier in the thread, and for the most part Flame beat me to the punch on the response.  Although, in all fairness, starting with the armor is optional in X5 (pick Zero, you don't get it), and the extra part slots give you some incentive to experiment without armor.  Neither point is true in X6.  Your DEFAULT FORM in X6 is armored.  Unarmored is super-hard-with-no-point-except-to-prove-you're-a-badass mode.  It's that simple.  In no video game whatsoever is it considered remotely intelligent to turn off your default abilities without knowing what's ahead.

Yeah, I love Kangaroo and Hawk Ride Armors as much as the next guy, but in X3 you can use them for all of 2 minutes before the stage demands you leave them behind.  Not amazing.  You're further hindered by a generally weak arsenal; even if it barely beats out the Blade Armor, X3 has NOTHING on Shadow+Ultimate Buster+Overdrive.  Hell, no X game period has anything to that level of destructive power, save Xtreme2.

Yes, yes, I know, kill Zero for his saber, but the game is nearly over by then and you still have to stumble through the crapass double shot for every saber wave you fire.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on September 03, 2012, 06:06:25 AM
The game sets the standard in the Intro stage, by starting you with an armor. It isnt for shits and giggles, The game is telling you there that you will NEED armor for this game, and if you decide to not use them, then game isn't punishing you, you are punishing yourself by ignoring what the game has told you is required.

X5 starts you with an Armor too. It too, sets the bar, telling you that for that game, Armor is a default. You will require an Armor. And that Armored X will be your "default X".

Then why does "default" X even exist? For shits and giggles*? In any case, I don't like being started off with the armor from the last game, especially in the case of X5 and X6. Bringing over an ability or two into X's standard armor from the last game is fine, but recycling armor and telling the player they HAVE TO SHOULD use it is bullshit.

*By the way, that pretty much sums up X's involvement in his own series after X4: for shits and giggles.

That's entirely subjective.

yeah Ride Armors were cool, but they didnt feel all THAT useful, since they were hindered by first off, finding a summoning platform, and secondly, if the stage allowed you to use it for more than a minute or two before you hit a door or small corridor.

And X6 meanwhile, has some pretty interesting parts. Ultimate Buster for one. X6 also includes special parts that can be used once per stage, like, overdrive.

Overdrive plus Ultimate Buster is the CLOSEST we will EVER get to Xtreme 2's levels of Ultimate Buster Godhood with X.

I'll take the Ride Armors from X3 over either parts systems from X5/X6. Hands down. The Ride Armors were situational and limited, but they were fun to find and fun to use for the most part, and they didn't disappear after use. The parts change your gameplay slightly and there's an abundance of them, so I pretty much dislike them for the same reason I dislike Cyber-Elves: they're another step towards RPGing-up your action game. Too much clutter of powerups that mess with object variables like how fast you can move or jump or whether pressing X shoots lemons or fully charged shots--not even different shots, just the same ones you've always had. This is not my kind of action game. This is an RPG encroaching on an action game. I don't think having so much focus on that level of customization is what made Mega Man X fun to play. In part, Ride Armors were what made Mega Man X fun to play. Also finding a decent armor, instead of two middling ones.

Power's fine, but being ridiculously overpowered gets played pretty quickly. At least with a Ride Armor your punching the [parasitic bomb] out of stuff and stomping on things, which is way more fun to me than just starting out a level with a ridiculously overpowered buster. Even if the Ride Armors are highly situational, they're at least more fun to find in that you know you've found them. With the parts in X6, unless you have a guide on hand, it's a tossup.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on September 03, 2012, 06:14:06 AM
they're another step towards RPGing-up your action game.
You realize that's EXACTLY what the point of the armor system was in X1, right?

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starting out a level with a ridiculously overpowered buster.
Nobody in their right mind would defend starting the game with the end-of-game secret armor minus one attack.  Why Capcom couldn't at LEAST revisit the stock charge, I will never know.

In X6, oddly enough, your buster shot is the full and sole "practical" reason that anyone would ever use unarmored X over Falcon X.  It's larger and it actually has better piercing abilities; Capcom over-nerfed Falcon's shot to the point where any enemy whatsoever will stop it dead in its tracks.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on September 03, 2012, 06:26:48 AM
You realize that's EXACTLY what the point of the armor system was in X1, right?

Err, absolutely not? They're honest-to-god powerups, not stat boosts. They gave you abilities that usually came with unique visual components as well as tangible abilities. They were also the only choice besides going armorless. Interestingly enough, you can actually clear Mega Man X without even dashing.

In X6, oddly enough, your buster shot is the full and sole "practical" reason that anyone would ever use unarmored X over Falcon X.  It's larger and it actually has better piercing abilities; Capcom over-nerfed Falcon's shot to the point where any enemy whatsoever will stop it dead in its tracks.

It also looks better. I think the Fourth Armor is the first time I started to think that X looked better without an armor. The best looking one is the Max Armor.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on September 03, 2012, 06:45:31 AM
On X3's ride armors: They were "keepable" and had lifebars, and were summonable, but the fact is, they just were not implemented well. Only about 2 sections really utilize them fully. And even then it's only for about 3 seconds before you have to drop it to keep going on foot.

Almost every other X game has done Ride Armor's better, simply because they are part of the stage design, and are optional. They are things you come across, and can use. X3 however, while still optional, GIVES them to you to keep, like a power up, and Summon whenever you find the appropriate area to do so, and yet they have the same amount of utility they did in X1 and X2, and no more. They dont actually give you any obstacles or environmental bits for you to utilize the armors potential fully. They dont adapt the stages to them at all. At their worst they are for Item hunting. At their best, they are used for all of 20 seconds.

X4 and X5 actually come to mind most when thinking about Ride Armor's done well.

Err, absolutely not? They're honest-to-god powerups, not stat boosts.

Inafune:
"We were working on this at a time when RPG's were exploding in the market. The whole idea of experience points and additional powers according to your character's level was becoming mainstream. Then there was Mega Man, which was still a more of a classical representation of the action game gnere. I started to feel that mega Man was not shining as brightly in this light. That's why we wanted to bring in more power ups. As far as weapons were concerned, Mega Man always had the 'get new weapons by defeating enemies' system going, so we wanted to add another form of powering up. This train of thought led us to the armor parts that enhance your character."

Mega Man X Complete Works, page 7, The X1 Armor art section.

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It also looks better. I think the Fourth Armor is the first time I started to think that X looked better without an armor. The best looking one is the Max Armor.
I have no idea what this "Max Armor" you are talking about is, but I think you mean the X3 armor. I love it's design too, something about it just looks plain awesome. But the sprite itself for it was dreadful. The armor design simply outgrew the sprite style. I do love myself the X4 armor though. It's more- like the rest of X4- the last game that has that sort of classic X1-3 "feel" to it. X5 and 6 instead tried to use motifs for their armors. Falcon, Art Deco, Samurai, Ninja... The Glide armor seems more like an attempt at copying the Blade Armor, and just doesnt feel like it works design wise, and the Neutral Armor is just a bad design. Good ideas, (the bright lights whos colors represent which version of the Armor is being used was nice) but the design itself is not too great. especially the stupid collar.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Hypershell on September 03, 2012, 05:26:13 PM
On X3's ride armors: They were "keepable" and had lifebars, and were summonable, but the fact is, they just were not implemented well. Only about 2 sections really utilize them fully. And even then it's only for about 3 seconds before you have to drop it to keep going on foot.

Almost every other X game has done Ride Armor's better, simply because they are part of the stage design, and are optional. They are things you come across, and can use. X3 however, while still optional, GIVES them to you to keep, like a power up, and Summon whenever you find the appropriate area to do so, and yet they have the same amount of utility they did in X1 and X2, and no more. They dont actually give you any obstacles or environmental bits for you to utilize the armors potential fully. They dont adapt the stages to them at all. At their worst they are for Item hunting. At their best, they are used for all of 20 seconds.
One thing about X3's Ride Armors that irks me a bit is how utterly redundant the Kangaroo is.  I love it, it looks positively awesome, but for practicality's sake it is useless.

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I have no idea what this "Max Armor" you are talking about is, but I think you mean the X3 armor. I love it's design too, something about it just looks plain awesome. But the sprite itself for it was dreadful. The armor design simply outgrew the sprite style. I do love myself the X4 armor though. It's more- like the rest of X4- the last game that has that sort of classic X1-3 "feel" to it. X5 and 6 instead tried to use motifs for their armors. Falcon, Art Deco, Samurai, Ninja... The Glide armor seems more like an attempt at copying the Blade Armor, and just doesnt feel like it works design wise, and the Neutral Armor is just a bad design. Good ideas, (the bright lights whos colors represent which version of the Armor is being used was nice) but the design itself is not too great. especially the stupid collar.
Dammit, Flame, how do you keep reading my mind?

Well, anyways, the term "Max Armor" comes from X3 toy packaging, though it is believed to be simply the Japanese equivalent to "full armor" (Used to refer to X1, X2, and X4 armors in MMXOCW).  The confusion comes from the fact that the X3 armor is the only "unnamed" armor to appear in Bandai's Mega Armor Series.

And oi, X8's collar...  I don't think I've ever seen such a transparent attempt to cover a Mega Man artist's laziness in my life (we can't see X's mouth = we don't have to do armored expressions).  Yoshikawa had no business staying in the art director's chair after allowing a stunt like that.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on September 03, 2012, 06:10:37 PM
Lol, I know where Max Armor comes from. I was being smart.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on September 03, 2012, 07:13:56 PM
On X3's ride armors: They were "keepable" and had lifebars, and were summonable, but the fact is, they just were not implemented well. Only about 2 sections really utilize them fully. And even then it's only for about 3 seconds before you have to drop it to keep going on foot.

Almost every other X game has done Ride Armor's better, simply because they are part of the stage design, and are optional. They are things you come across, and can use. X3 however, while still optional, GIVES them to you to keep, like a power up, and Summon whenever you find the appropriate area to do so, and yet they have the same amount of utility they did in X1 and X2, and no more. They dont actually give you any obstacles or environmental bits for you to utilize the armors potential fully. They dont adapt the stages to them at all. At their worst they are for Item hunting. At their best, they are used for all of 20 seconds.

X4 and X5 actually come to mind most when thinking about Ride Armor's done well.

Technically, the Frog Armor was part of Toxic Seahorse's stage, but nobody likes that one, so it doesn't count (right?). The same could be said of the Chimera or the Kangaroo armors in Blizzard Buffalo's stage, where you use them to destroy the ice blocks to get to the life-up. The Hawk Armor is arguably the most useless ride armor in the game, but lemme tell you, I would've loved that Ride Armor in Crystal Snail's stage; and even though the Armor Chips were useless compared to the Gold Armor, the Hawk Armor was the best choice to get at the one in Blast Hornet's stage.

They're partly for item-hunting mostly, sure, but I never considered that a bad thing in X3 of all games. At least the items you have to find in that game are distinguishable, few, and simply distinct; or they were a Light Capsule, which were a real treat half the time. You don't need to rescue a random Reploid to get them or lose them to one of the many ubiquitous Nightmares floating around. Besides that, it's just fun to bash or blow stuff up with the armors even though they're confined to a limited space. This is literally the same condition that previous Ride Armors are confined to: about 10 percent of the entire stage they're in. Why is X3 criticized for this when it not only does the same thing, but even gives you choices between different Ride Armors, after having gone through the effort of finding them? They might not be the best use of Ride Armors, but they were the most fun and expansive use of them by far.

Ultimately, both the Ride Armors and the Parts systems have potential, but I argue that the Ride Armors are demonstrably more iconic to Mega Man X and part of what made that series fun from the start. The Parts system was nice, but better implemented in games like Mega Man 7 and 8. In X5 & X6 they become too complicated in an effort to be like RPGs, which is not what Mega Man X ever needed as an action game. If they wanted to make Mega Man X into an RPG, they should've just went ahead and made Mega Man X Command Mission well in advance of when it was actually made.

Ironically, didn't Inafune dislike Command Mission? Saying something like it wasn't a direction Mega Man X should've gone in?

Inafune:
"We were working on this at a time when RPG's were exploding in the market. The whole idea of experience points and additional powers according to your character's level was becoming mainstream. Then there was Mega Man, which was still a more of a classical representation of the action game gnere. I started to feel that mega Man was not shining as brightly in this light. That's why we wanted to bring in more power ups. As far as weapons were concerned, Mega Man always had the 'get new weapons by defeating enemies' system going, so we wanted to add another form of powering up. This train of thought led us to the armor parts that enhance your character."

Mega Man X Complete Works, page 7, The X1 Armor art section.

If the armors were inspired by RPGs of the time, that's great. But it's still a far cry from adopting hardcore RPG conventions like buying, selling, and finding equipment that changes your "base stats" a little bit. The armors don't raise X's hit points (those are confined to eight different powerups which fit better with an action platformer than an RPG) or his attack points or [parasitic bomb] like that. They change the way he functions in an action sidescroller: giving him a buster attack that looks and behaves differently than what he had before, the ability to dash, and the ability to bash things with his head. You just don't look at a game like Mega Man X and think, "Oh yeah, that's kinda like an RPG." It's still very much an action game. Any similarities it might have with an actual RPG are superficial at best and blatantly dubious at worst.

I have no idea what this "Max Armor" you are talking about is, but I think you mean the X3 armor. I love it's design too, something about it just looks plain awesome. But the sprite itself for it was dreadful. The armor design simply outgrew the sprite style.

I'd chalk it up to lack of initiative. If they could dramatically change Zero's basic sprite from game to game (and they've done so; the only exception is from X4 to X5), then they could've done a little more work with X's sprite as well.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on September 03, 2012, 08:32:33 PM
Hawk Ride Armor is in MY eyes, one of the best. And it is terribly underused. Again, they give you these walking tanks with their own lifebars and the ability to one shot enemies, you can summon them in stages, any one of them you like- and then the extent of it's usefulness is breaking ice blocks to a heart tank, something that could just as easily have been relegated to a special weapon. That's not good implementation.

When the game hands me something like those Ride Armors, I would expect them to be for something other than item hunting. I would expect the stages to be factored in.

Understandably however, it would have been nearly impossible to adapt the stages to the Ride Armors when there are different types with different abilites. Outside of alternate pathways, they couldnt have adapted one area to all of them.

That's the kind of Ride Armor utilization I like.

Meanwhile, every other X game that has a Ride Armor segment, adapts the stage to it, or at least makes it the most convenient way to traverse the stage. I think only X2 seems to have an X3 like problem with it's ride armor, particularly in the Dino Tank, But then again, at least it gives you some beefier enemies to fight with it, while X3 just has it's tiny little grunts.

It's why I love the Eagle Ride Armor so damn much. It was not only an improvement on what Hawk offered, but it was actually utilized in it's respective segments since it had that indefinite flight. The final stages even utilized the split paths concept, and made a Ride Armorless area, and a bottomless pit area traversable with the Eagle.

And X5 had an entire alternate pathway at the start of the second area of Mattrex's stage based around going THROUGH the lava with the Raiden Armor, as opposed to over it, which would instead net you a miniboss chase and battle.

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The armors don't raise X's hit points
They decrease the amount he loses though.
And Heart Tanks DO.

they may not be as RPG as Symphony of the Night or Command Mission, but for the time, they were by the team, considered RPG elements. The idea that you would get more items as you grew stronger. Whether you like it or not, they were there solely to introduce an RPG-like concept into the franchise.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on September 03, 2012, 08:53:53 PM
How did stages from X1 "factor them in"? They were just plopped there for their own sake, and they lasted about 20 seconds too. You never even got to fight Vile with one of them, which would've been awesome. The only way they were factored into the stage was by having enemy operators standing around to fight you in them until you showed up, which was actually absent from X3, so point against it. It's significant, but still pretty minor, considering you could just repel and destroy them with your own weapons anyway.

So yeah, item hunting is pretty much the only other thing you would use the Ride Armors for aside from just busting people up.

Adapting X3's levels to each Ride Armor would not have been impossible. Everyone complains about there being too much empty space in X3, so a good use of all that space could've been obstacles or secrets best suited to a given Ride Armor. Mind you, they shouldn't be required, but merely helpful and fun to use. X3 could've been the series' inaugural foray into nonlinear-ish Metroidvania type gameplay where the levels were a little more open-ended and the Ride Armors were a little more varied and even more useful than before. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

The chest part of the armor does decrease damage, but it only does it once. The heart tanks do increase health like in RPGs, but they were meshed so well with the exploration aspect of an action sidescroller like MMX that they were effectively just powerups. I see the similarity to RPG powerups, but I don't agree it should get any more complicated than that. Both the armors and the Heart Tanks may have been inspired by RPG conventions, but they became simple, fixed action-game staples to the MMX games: nothing more, and nothing less. MMX is more like Metroid than it is like Breath of Fire or Final Fantasy. If anything, I think MMX should be going in that direction.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on September 03, 2012, 10:01:59 PM
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but it only does it once

Chest pieces decrease damage taken, and convert it to Giga attack energy. That means every hit you take.

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Both the armors and the Heart Tanks may have been inspired by RPG conventions, but they became simple, fixed action-game staples to the MMX games: nothing more, and nothing less.
Noone's arguing that. We were just stating, that they were introduced solely to introduce an RPG kind of element of "growing stronger", when you mentioned that Power up parts are a step in "RPGing up the action". Armor poarts were exactly that, and the Power up parts from Xtreme 2 onwards are just another extension of that. In fact, I would say they are an extension of the X3 chip system, and they do it far better. I could use your argument for the Armors and Heart tanks for those as well. They are just power ups, and add replayability to the game.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Treleus on September 03, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Chest pieces decrease damage taken, and convert it to Giga attack energy. That means every hit you take.

I meant the percent of damage reduced stayed fixed. It didn't level-up with experience or anything like that, and that was the only armor in the game you could get.

Noone's arguing that. We were just stating, that they were introduced solely to introduce an RPG kind of element of "growing stronger", when you mentioned that Power up parts are a step in "RPGing up the action". Armor poarts were exactly that, and the Power up parts from Xtreme 2 onwards are just another extension of that. In fact, I would say they are an extension of the X3 chip system, and they do it far better. I could use your argument for the Armors and Heart tanks for those as well. They are just power ups, and add replayability to the game.

The armor parts were more substantial than the individual parts system, though. I agree that they do add an RPG-like element to the gameplay, and I don't have a problem with that, but it's in a more dramatic way than in the more minimalistically RPG-ish parts system. With the parts, you have some that give you a +1 to attack power or attack speed, or one that gives you a (very) temporary buster overdrive, or one that slightly extends your saber length. It's a level of customization that I think does too little and spreads itself too thin across several parts you salvage from random Reploids in each stage. The armor parts and even the heart/sub tanks do more by themselves or together than the parts do, and they're more fun to find. Basically, I feel the same way about the parts system that I do about the multiple forms in ZX or ZXA: too much customization.

I don't really mind having new items or powerups to collect, but the way X5 and X6 implemented them were too minimal and not very fun to find at all. They didn't mesh as well with the action gameplay of MMX as the armors, Ride armors, and heart tanks did.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Sigma Zero X on September 04, 2012, 07:37:05 AM
On X3's ride armors: They were "keepable" and had lifebars, and were summonable, but the fact is, they just were not implemented well. Only about 2 sections really utilize them fully. And even then it's only for about 3 seconds before you have to drop it to keep going on foot.

Almost every other X game has done Ride Armor's better, simply because they are part of the stage design, and are optional. They are things you come across, and can use. X3 however, while still optional, GIVES them to you to keep, like a power up, and Summon whenever you find the appropriate area to do so, and yet they have the same amount of utility they did in X1 and X2, and no more. They dont actually give you any obstacles or environmental bits for you to utilize the armors potential fully. They dont adapt the stages to them at all. At their worst they are for Item hunting. At their best, they are used for all of 20 seconds.

X4 and X5 actually come to mind most when thinking about Ride Armor's done well.

Inafune:
"We were working on this at a time when RPG's were exploding in the market. The whole idea of experience points and additional powers according to your character's level was becoming mainstream. Then there was Mega Man, which was still a more of a classical representation of the action game gnere. I started to feel that mega Man was not shining as brightly in this light. That's why we wanted to bring in more power ups. As far as weapons were concerned, Mega Man always had the 'get new weapons by defeating enemies' system going, so we wanted to add another form of powering up. This train of thought led us to the armor parts that enhance your character."

Mega Man X Complete Works, page 7, The X1 Armor art section.
I have no idea what this "Max Armor" you are talking about is, but I think you mean the X3 armor. I love it's design too, something about it just looks plain awesome. But the sprite itself for it was dreadful. The armor design simply outgrew the sprite style. I do love myself the X4 armor though. It's more- like the rest of X4- the last game that has that sort of classic X1-3 "feel" to it. X5 and 6 instead tried to use motifs for their armors. Falcon, Art Deco, Samurai, Ninja... The Glide armor seems more like an attempt at copying the Blade Armor, and just doesnt feel like it works design wise, and the Neutral Armor is just a bad design. Good ideas, (the bright lights whos colors represent which version of the Armor is being used was nice) but the design itself is not too great. especially the stupid collar.

I actually liked the Neutral Armor.  The white shoes look cool and the armor abilities rock.  However, I will admit that although the Neutral Armor is my favorite armor in design and probably function, it could have been better.  The black line streaks on the white shoes has got to go. 

Come to think of it, something tells me that the designers really wanted X to look like Casshern without being a direct rip off in design.  If they wanted X to really be more similar to Casshern, they should have done the following things:

1.  The black streaks on the white shoes must be moved to the leg guards if they want to keep it.  The shoes must be completely white and the black streaks should be present on the leg guards to show more similarities to Casshern's boots. 

2.  The collar needs to be moved behind X's neck.  If the designers wanted a mouth guard for X, they should have made the mouth guard similar to the Shadow Armor's.  This time, the Neutral Armor could have the mouth guard open and close at X's will when necessary.

Now if only Tatsunoko and Capcom could have X and Casshern team up and/or fight each other or something. 
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Flame on September 05, 2012, 03:47:54 AM
Well again, what bothers me MOST about the Neutral Armor, is the collar. Without it, I probably wouldnt have any issue with the rest of the design. I personally would consider it a bit lacking, but it makes up for it by the interesting gimmick of Red and blue lights for each Armor variation.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Karasai♪ on September 05, 2012, 04:08:54 AM
Speaking of Casshern and Neutral Armor, look at the first concept of Mega Man X
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110824020915/megaman/images/thumb/4/45/InafuneEarlyMMXseriesSketchs.jpg/640px-InafuneEarlyMMXseriesSketchs.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Ladd Spencer on September 24, 2012, 07:27:29 PM
Popped collar = Edgy

I love it.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Irregular Ass-R-Us on August 09, 2013, 09:35:10 PM
I don't hate X6 at all in fact personally i liked it more than X5 and a tiny bit more of X4. It had:
*Amazing Soundtrack.
*High Difficulty ( I love really hard games )
*Good/Ok Story for me.
*The Shadow Armor and Blade Armor are quite cool.
*I liked The bosses.
*Zero was improved more game play-wise.
*It had a better feel for me overall.

What i didn't like:
*I didn't like the levels.
*Gate.
*High Max.

So really i actually like X6. :)
 
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Mirby on August 09, 2013, 10:48:19 PM
Ahem.

Check the last post date, dude.

It was almost an entire year ago.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Protoman Blues on August 10, 2013, 12:45:19 AM
And it was on topic and used more than one word, so it's perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
Post by: Mirby on August 10, 2013, 07:21:34 AM
My bad. Forget I said anything then.

*slinks under the trash compactors in Metal Shark Player's stage...*