RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Original => Topic started by: HyperSonicEXE on December 05, 2008, 03:37:59 AM
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Hazards are actually avoidable the first time through instead of relying on memorization, meaning the developers actually took the time to consider human reaction times.
There are no enemies like the Hoppers in Shadow Man's stage. They're large enough for you to actually shoot. There are the floating tops, but those can be shot down. Only other troublesome enemies I can think of are the scissors and the flowerpots, but you generally have some way of dealing with them.
This game's large Jumper enemies can be shot down in a reasonable amount of time. For that matter, most enemies don't require you to spam the 2 button (okay, depends on your layout) like you're shivering to keep from getting damaged, which is really just a waste of everyone's time rather than a supposed show of skill.
The weapons are actually useful.
The bosses follow logical movement patterns, and Magma Man's "random" jump element can be worked around instead of "dealt with" like you would have to Pharaoh Man, Shadow Man, Flash Man, or Quick Man.
Stage puzzles are over with fairly quickly compared to previous puzzles in the series.
The graphics are fine (considering), the music is great overall, and the controls are fluid.
Mega Man 9 is, in every way, a better game than its 8-Bit counterparts. Kudos to the developers.
Agree? Or disagree?
I know this is a risky topic, but after having toyed around with MMAC just now, I think this needs to be said.
And if you think this topic is risky, ask me what I think about Megaman Legends or Chrono Trigger.
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i may have to think about this a little bit, but for now my gut says to agree with you.
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It was definitely really good. I'm not sure about the best though. If it had Bass in some way or form interact with your progress, then maybe. That was a major let down for me.
Oh also; Legends is super highly enjoyable. Best story in the franchise. Possibly Legends 2 being the best game in the whole franchise. So much heart in that game.
As for Chrono Trigger; best RPG of all time. The end.
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Haven't played it. The vids look nice though.
I think some of the points you make (especially the first one) depend on how good you are at these kind of games. I mean, seriously ... the disappearing blocks in Plugman's level ... if you didn't watch any vids of them you'd die on your first try. I can't see a real case of "no memorization" being made for that part. There's probably other parts like that too.
The main point RM9 has going for it is the amount of time since R&F was first released in Japan. We've had a long, long time to miss Megaman and absence makes the heart grow fonder and fans of MM (and maybe oldschool fans too) have been wanting some NEW oldschool action. Conversely, we've had plenty of time to play MMs 1-6 to absolute death.
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Haven't played it. The vids look nice though.
I think some of the points you make (especially the first one) depend on how good you are at these kind of games. I mean, seriously ... the disappearing blocks in Plugman's level ... if you didn't watch any vids of them you'd die. I can't see a real case of "no memorization" being made for that part.
Oh man, you're missing out.
Anyway, actually, I was able to manage through Plug Man's stage, but only because I knew Capcom's tricks relative to the stage layout, so I crossed my fingers and jumped ahead of the blocks that had just appeared. Thankfully, when I got to where I thought a block would pop up, it did.
But. Only because Capcom didn't place any disappearing blocks 2 steps out of sequence.
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Oh man, you're missing out.
Anyway, actually, I was able to manage through Plug Man's stage, but only because I knew Capcom's tricks relative to the stage layout, so I crossed my fingers and jumped ahead of the blocks that had just appeared. Thankfully, when I got to where I thought a block would pop up, it did.
But. Only because Capcom didn't place any disappearing blocks 2 steps out of sequence.
I am, I know. Hopefully some sort of suppliment will be made sometime.
Anyhow, you don't disprove my point. You KNEW Capcom's trick. Just like anyone who'se seen preview vids. Unlike the games of yore, this game is in the age of the internet. So it might not feel like a memorisation game in comparison, but you're getting knowledge in advance, therefore you have to try less. If you're good at these type of games, you can avoid obsticles.
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Anyhow, you don't disprove my point. You KNEW Capcom's trick. Just like anyone who'se seen preview vids. Unlike the games of yore, this game is in the age of the internet. So it might not feel like a memorisation game in comparison, but you're getting knowledge in advance, therefore you have to try less.
Ah, but knowing the mechanics of a puzzle is different from knowing the exact layout of it.
For example: I know full well that Quick Man's lasers will kill me, but I don't know where some platforms that will slow me down will be nor do I know where the lasers will come from, exactly. Not on my first time through.
Yes, the game is kind enough to scroll down ahead of time to where I can plan some action, but depending upon where I was on the last screen, it might be Game Over.
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Well, tbh, even if you haven't seen videos before there are only 4 parts tops where it's easy to die, and one of them is a cheap "lol, in your face" death. Almost all of it is jump forward>wait for a block to disappear>jump forward>repeat
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Precisely.
Now, I wasn't too good at the second Scissors part of Hornet Man's stage, though. That could have been poor skill on my part, seeing as how there are two paths you can take.
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But you could really say that about any hard part in a MM game. That they're mostly easy except for a few tricky parts. It still doesn't take into consideration that other people aren't as good as you might be, nor does it take into account that Capcom showed you a video of the trick (and someone else recreated it). I mean, they walked you through the trick on video. Before the game was even finished. You can't tell me that you would have seen it coming if you hadn't had known the trick before hand.
MM1-6 had no such coverage. No pre-release videos of those games. That means, less knowledge on how to beat them.
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I know, but my point is that most of it is simply jumping forward, you only need to see the pattern once.
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I know, but my point is that most of it is simply jumping forward, you only need to see the pattern once.
Well, HyperSonic said that it's avoidable the first time. So he's saying that you don't need to see the pattern at all (unless I'm misreading that first point). That it's passable on the first run. I disagree. We've had videos show us that one time that you'd really need to know before playing that part.
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But you could really say that about any hard part in a MM game. That they're mostly easy except for a few tricky parts. It still doesn't take into consideration that other people aren't as good as you might be, nor does it take into account that Capcom showed you a video of the trick (and someone else recreated it). I mean, they walked you through the trick on video. Before the game was even finished. You can't tell me that you would have seen it coming if you hadn't had known the trick before hand.
MM1-6 had no such coverage. No pre-release videos of those games. That means, less knowledge on how to beat them.
Most of them, yes. There are some puzzles where memorization was necessary/near-necessary, though. I'd like to meet the person that survived Quick Man's lasers the first time. Also, the only parts of the Plug Man stage I saw, it did show the blocks, but only the easiest parts. I knew they were coming up, and that's it.
True. The Disappearing Blocks must've been something else for people who grew up with MM2.
Well, HyperSonic said that it's avoidable the first time. So he's saying that you don't need to see the pattern at all (unless I'm misreading that first point). I disagree. And we've had videos show us that one time.
Correct; I didn't need to know the layout, though it does help immensely now that I know it. But, again, both luck and skill factored into that minor accomplishment. I just barely missed dying on the part before the E-Can.
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Well, most of it is avoidable, but then near the end is where you will die if you don't pay attention. You have enough time to see perfectly what's coming though, except for that one cheap death that is something you'd expect from a game like IWTBTG or Owata (I think that's how that flash game was called).
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That's another thing. You can sit and watch some of these puzzles progress, and then attempt them. Not the whole thing, sometimes, but you can do so.
Then there's Heat Man's stage where if you miss a jump, the block is over your head, and it pretty well spells trouble.
Ice Man's stage, yeah, you can just map out your jumps.
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So, if I'm to understand this correctly, MM9 is better than MM1-6 because of it's lack of trial and error?
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That along with some very subjective items of note that don't ring true for all six games.
Edit: And, personally, I think MM5's graphics wins over MM9. MM9 is trying to be retro, but MM5 is still better. But, again, pretty subjective. Saying things like that and "less tricky enemies" is a very subjective thing to say.
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So, if I'm to understand this correctly, MM9 is better than MM1-6 because of it's lack of trial and error?
I REALLY don't see how it lacks trial and error though. *glares at Concreteman's stage and Wily 3*
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Thing is, if people are gonna say this sort of thing , they really need to sit down and do some real comparisons. Quickman's beams, say, do not make MM2 inferior to MM9.
The "hopper" enemy and Shadowman's pettern alone don't make MM9 greater than MM3.
The weapon usefulnaess has a real good point against games like MMs 4-6 (I, personally, never used anything but the buster there and I tend to suck so you'd think I'd rely on them) because the Master Weapons are a central component in the Megaman games. That's a good point. BUT it doesn't apply to MMs 1-3. The gamnes force the weapons to be useful in MMs 1 and 2. In MM3 the Top Spin has some bosses pretty weak against it, but there's quite a few times when Magnet Missiles are useful or Search Snakes. So this point isn't true for every game.
The music and graphics are almost purely subjective. I think the series peaked at 5 for graphics and I love the MM4 soundtrack. MM9 loses a point in graphics for me since it actually reuses graphics from prior MM games. (how can it lose to MM2 when it uses graphics from MM2 in some areas?) Music is MUCH more subjective. I love MM4's music. But that doesn't make it the "best".
And the lack of memorization, again, really depends on luck and how good you are. And it might not even be a plus, depending on how you see it.
I think you need to prove your case more. If yer gonna say something like this seriously, I think you need to prove it more than casting MMs1-6 as one huge game VS the good points of MM9 (without any of the bad points mentioned).
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The weapon usefulnaess has a real good point against games like MMs 4-6 (I, personally, never used anything but the buster there and I tend to suck so you'd think I'd rely on them) because the Master Weapons are a central component in the Megaman games. That's a good point. BUT it doesn't apply to MMs 1-3. The gamnes force the weapons to be useful in MMs 1 and 2. In MM3 the Top Spin has some bosses pretty weak against it, but there's quite a few times when Magnet Missiles are useful or Search Snakes. So this point isn't true for every game.
You have a good point there, however, IMO MM9 has THE most useful weapons in the series. Not a single one of them is useless, none.
Anyways, I think choosing a best MM game is really difficult, hell, I haven't been able to choose between 2 and 3 for years. 9 just makes things harder @_@
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You have a good point there, however, IMO MM9 has THE most useful weapons in the series. Not a single one of them is useless, none.
Anyways, I think choosing a best MM game is really difficult, hell, I haven't been able to choose between 2 and 3 for years. 9 just makes things harder @_@
THAT depends on how you play. It truly does. Speedruns of MM2 show the Air Shooter used in some pretty creative ways. I never use the Air Shooter, but one speedrun shows it to be one damned effective MM weapon. I don't think everyone plays with, say, Conctrete Shot up to it's full usefullness. And I've seen other playthroughs that never use Hornet man's weapon at all (okay, except in boss fights).
I'll accept that there's some weapons in MMs 4-6 that never get used by me and likely nobody else. But on MM1-3, the weapons are pretty solid. And, even if the weapo ns on MM9 are truly the best, that doesn't quite make it THE best. It's one good point in it's favor, but not the ONLY point. MMs 1-6 are not one game.
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Hmm, good point about the playing styles, but I think that what matters the most is the weapon's potential, just because not many people use C.Shot it does not make it a worse weapon. Still, in the end all of this is a matter of opinion anyways.
And out of curiousity, how would the 1-3's weapons compare to 9's?
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Hmm, good point about the playing styles, but I think that what matters the most is the weapon's potential, just because not many people use C.Shot it does not make it a worse weapon. Still, in the end all of this is a matter of opinion anyways.
And out of curiousity, how would the 1-3's weapons compare to 9's?
Potential is as potential does. Used effectively even a so-called lame weapon has the potential to be really useful. But that doesn't really mean they're all usefull, right? In a pro's hands Air Shooter is awsome (like I said) but I have never used it.
Anyhow, I'll take a crack at the weapon comparison. It'll be tough since I haven't played MM9; I can't say which weapon I would find most useful.
MM1
Cut - First weapon I get; most used by me in MM1. Many minor enemies are one-hit kills with the cutter and it has range.
Guts - It's forced to be useful in Wily's Castle, Elecman's level (to get the M. Beam), and against "Bubble Boy".
Bomb - Most useless weapon in MM1 that isn't forced to be useful. Good against Guts but not against much else.
Elec - Range + three directions at once + pause trick = broken weapon and best against the Yellow Devil. Great weapon in tight spots.
Fire - Another great weapon in tight spots thanks to the sheild. I use this one whem Cutter runs out.
Ice - Great against Big Eyes sicne it freezes them in midair. You can use this in Wily 1 to get past that "outside" part easily. Great against the fire towers; has the potential to make Fireman's stage easy.
win - 5 / 6 (with Guts' weapon having forced usefullness)
MM1 has some losing weapons (bomb and guts), but even guts is forced to be useful, so it isn't a total loss. However, the weapons we're left with are pretty powerful. They're very good when playing the game.
MM2
Metal - Best weapon ever. Used constantly.
Heat - Key to win against *some*bosses. But it's charging drains so much energy that I, personally, never use it.
Crash Bombs - forced usefullness against Piko Kun. Forced usefulness as a blockade-destroying device (especially in heat's level).
Flash - Useful in Quick's area. Useful in Heat's area (freezing the tellys). In fact: useful wherever tellys are.
Wood - I never use it, but it's useful in Crashman's area and in Wily's area (with the platforms). Useful against Airman. Useful against anywhere with Pipis. Generally usefull to people who aren't really me.
Bubble - Forced usefullness against Wily. Useful against most ground-trodden enemies. Not a very useful weapon tho.
Air Shooter - Surprisingly useful if used correctly against all enemies directly above you.
Quick - I never use this weapon except against the dragon and Guts Dozer. Not very useful. Too much like the buster, not enough range. Easily wastes out.
win - 6/8 (with Bubble and Crash having forced usefulness)
MM2 is designed so that it's weapons are useful in parts of the game. As such, each one has it's time to shine even if some aren't used as often as others (bubble). Even if Bubble loses out, it still stands out in our minds, so I can't say it's a total loser. The rest are also very solid. Rather balanced. They're all made to be used a certain way in a certain situation.
MM3
Shadow - I actually don't use the Shadow Blade very often. Forced usefullness against Wily 1 boss. Useful against Gamma (VERY usefull). Still, too similar to arm cannon and not enough range. However, it CAN hit those frogs in Shadow's level that was previously mentioned. Others do seem to find it useful, even if I don't usually.
Magnet - Most useful weapon in MM3. Good against the stationary subboses.
Top - Useful against Gamma, Shadowman, Mega Clone, and at least one Doc Robot. Hidden usefulness.
Hard - Good against any number of fortress bosses. Good against the subbosses. Good for removing blockers. Useful.
Gemini lazer - Brings Needle down to size. I found myself using this a lot in my childhood because of it's range and ability to hit things above me. But time has worn on and I don't use it too often.
Neelde - I always find myself button mashing more than using Needle, but it actually uses very little weapon energy. Has the potential to be a much better weapon than I usually use it as. Good against the Docs. Semi-useful.
Spark - Freezes the big "jumpers" in place, so it shares that use with Ice Slasher in MM1. Still, it's too much like Arm Cannon.
Snake - Forced usefulness against Gamma if you used up all of Top or just don't know about that weakness. Good against the top-spewers. Good against the turtle enemies (Gem's level) and most other ground-based foes. I'd say it has hidden usefullness, but isn't really used too often.
win - 5/8 Weakly tho, Magnet is so useful it overshadows other weapons when I play.
Each weapon in MM3 is pretty good all in all, with Spark and Neelde losing a bit since they;'re so like the regular weapon. Top was fun as a kid because it was so unique. People never think to use it, but it does have it's uses. Snake's weapon also has hidden potential. This game was designed to be beaten with the arm cannon if possible, however, so only a few weapons get a chance to truly shine. Still, each one has it's strong suit. With the exception of Spark and Needle, each one is memorable.
MM9 (and brear in mind I watched only vids)
Plug - Most useless weapon in MM9. Has some uses, but mostly useless.
Hornet - Nice for average players to get powerups. Wins for that.
Concrete - I don't see myself actually using this weapon much. However, speedruns show this weapon as having hidden win.
Splash - Powerful and broken, but shoots straight ahead. Good for some key opponents, but I dunno how many others. Still, pretty useful from what I've seen.
Galaxy - Key for those bombs in Splash's level and against the dragon and the Devils. However, I see this used in only those places and not many others. Still pretty useful.
Tornado - I don't see this as having any more or any less win than Gravity Hold. Forced usefullness in Wily 1. But not really useful.
Magma - Inafune says "finally, the charge is a gimmick again". Useful against Hornetman, but I haven't seen it do things that Splash's weapon can't.
Jewel - possibly the best weapon in the game.
win - 5/8 I've never seen Plug or Magma used too often. Tonado is useful, but not overly much it seems to me.
MM9 tries to mimick MM2 in that each weapon is useful in a specific situation. It also purposefully breaks certain weapons. Liek MM3, this leaves some weapons to be overshadowed. However, I don't see magma or Plug as being especially useful. Tornado seems good in a jam, but that's true of most special weapons in general. If we stack them up, I think MM9 is mostly impressive because of the neat visual effects they put in to make the weapons more memorable (sucking the flames off the dragon). Objectively speaking, if this came out right after MM8 I don't think people would be all that wowed by the weapons.
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because you haven't played the game, it shows why you're underestimating some of MM9's weapons.
- Plug is a good rapid fire weapon when the pea shooter doesn't cut it, and when you need to conserve ammo.
- Concrete is not only a boss raper, but creates makeshift platforms, which are quicker to climb than using Rush Coil. oh, and you can do short little zips with them.
- Laser Trident should become your default when you get it. Goes through shields, and you get a ton of ammo.
- The BHB is incredibly useful to take out guys that are tricky to take out with other weaponry. the mine carts and totem poles are good examples.
- Tornado Blow is not only a Giga Attack, it extends you jump height.
- Mazooka up close does a lot of damage. a good way to take out the big hoppers.
and Plug Man's block puzzles were the easiest yet. it didn't take any memorization, and barely any trial and error. the first time, i was only tripped up in one place, and that was that cheap [tornado fang] you spot during the second? puzzle.
So, if I'm to understand this correctly, MM9 is better than MM1-6 because of it's lack of trial and error?
far from it. there's still a lot of trial and error in the game, maybe even more so than previous games. the first spike trap in Splash comes to mind.
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Yeah, I can only judge on what I've seen. I still don't see Magma Bazooka as being something that gets used very often, however. It has it's moments, but I see that weapon used the least in just about every run of the game I see.
Maybe Plug has it's uses. But I didn't count Bubble Lead as a "win" weapon, and Plug Ball is in the same veign.
Tornado might boost your jump, but again, I haven't seen it used in that capacity either. I've seen it used, mostly, as a deperation weapon and against magma. And that's well and good, but the full-screen weapons tend to be limited like that. It's usually pretty full by the end in the runs I've seen.
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far from it. there's still a lot of trial and error in the game, maybe even more so than previous games. the first spike trap in Splash comes to mind.
My comment was based on the first post.
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Tornado might boost your jump, but again, I haven't seen it used in that capacity either. I've seen it used, mostly, as a deperation weapon and against magma. And that's well and good, but the full-screen weapons tend to be limited like that. It's usually pretty full by the end in the runs I've seen.
Really? I've sees T. Blow used in the time trials quite often.
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Really? I've sees T. Blow used in the time trials quite often.
Not I.
But this just goes into the "how you play" point I made earlier. Like weapons from other games, their effectiveness is greatly dependant on who's playing.
Edit: Of course some weapons, like Hyper Bomb, can be said to be objectively useless. I think you need to prove how ALL of the weapons in MM9 win for, at least, most players and extend the same courtesy to MMs 1-6.
Just based on my experience, I can say I go for weapons in MMs 1-3 a lot. MM4 rarely. MM5-6 almost never. That's why I think the weapons from MMs 1-3 are pretty solid (I use them) and MMs 4-6 not so much. MM9 does have weapon use, to be sure, but I don't think it's completely right to say that all the weapons are used in an eaqual manner. Some aren't reached for quite as often as others. Saying it has the "best selection" is something you'll have to prove game VS game, to get an agreement from me. Not just an overall blanket statement treateing all six games as one huge one.
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Gauntlet, you are a disgrace to humanity as a whole.
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Gauntlet, you are a disgrace to humanity as a whole.
*pshhh*
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Lemme just post (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=135.0) these (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=123.0) topics (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=223.0) to show my love for "Mega Man" 9.
I'm not so good with handling different opinions on discussion topics, so... carry on. *leaves* >U<
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My comment was based on the first post.
Yes and no, PB.
Yes, I do think "taking the guesswork out" is part of any well-designed game. We already do enough mental calculation and guesswork just destroying the regular scope of enemies. There's the real fun.
And yet, no, it's not the only reason I'm thinking that MM9 beats MM1-6; 5's presentation and color balance is better, 3's bosses are equal, 4's story is equal or better than 9's actually, that's opinion, but, you get the idea. MM9 still seems to be the better game, overall, comparing itself to each game of MM1-6. Sure, I could write out comparative reviews of each, but that'd take forever.
Even then, I think only taking the best elements out of each game and putting it into one would beat MM9.
Gauntlet, you are a disgrace to humanity as a whole.
A bit rude? Yeah.
But I will say that there's something to be said for actually playing the game, and,
AND
you must do what I forced myself to do and eliminate any nostalgia or favoritism for any past games, especially a past game that you have a favorite character or avatar out of, say, Shadow Man, etc.
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You'll note that I did not favor Shadowblade in my weapons list. Magnet Missile is far more effective. But it seems like you're just saying that you're not very good at Shadowman ergo MM9 is better. Because he's too random. Not a very good reason, IMHO. It doesn't really make MM9 the better game.
If you honestly think MM9 is better, I'd like to see some method to the madness. Yes, against each game. It'll take a bit, but why not? If you're gonna open it up, open it up all the way I say! Mostly, I don't think you've argued your case too well, which is why I'm picking it apart a bit. If you like, we can forgo debating about whther it's better than MM1 (the least developed game in the series) and MM6 (which everyone agrees is the worst game in the NES series). But it does seem liek you've thought about it, and you've opened it up ... I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it. Sure, I have my favorite game, but I didn't crete the game. I'm really not taking this personally...
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Actually, I'm okay against Shadow Man. Seems kinda counter-logic to stay near to where he is than stay far away.
And yeah, I could objectively review each game and compare them to MM9, but it'd take far too long. You'd have to highlight the games from start to end:
The intros, the story, the music, the presentation of the graphics (overall, title screen, stage select, scenery), controls and fluidity (how Mega Man slides a bit and falls a lot faster in MM1, and in MM2 and 3 how the disappearing blocks are trickier in timing for whatever reason), puzzle mechanics, ladder/platform mechanics, stage layout, enemy design, enemy movement patterns, enemy attack patterns, hitboxes, recoil, special weapons, special abilities, whether or not the pause screen is intuitive (actually, MM9 lacks here), boss designs, boss movement patterns, boss attack patterns, appropriate damages and reactions of bosses to their weakness, appropriate nature of the weapons themselves (how Concrete Shot stops Galaxy Man's Black Hole Bomb is beyond me), stage length, pacing/progression of the game, pacing/progression of the Wily stages, believability of the plot twist (could be subjective), provided extra items like E-Tanks, difficulty, the ending, the accessibility of secrets, the value of the secrets,
And I'm already behind on studying for my finals.
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MM6 (which everyone agrees is the worst game in the NES series).
I don't.
Saying it has the "best selection" is something you'll have to prove game VS game, to get an agreement from me.
Well I did say IMO didn't I?
I can't compare the weapons in MM9 to the rest of the series because I'm the kind of player that prefers to go buster only for stages, so I'll just write why I think 9's weapons are good.
Laser Trident: Fast; you can rapid-fire it; pierces EVERYTHING; uses low amounts of WE and it's actually quite strong. If there's anything that's close to Metal Blade, it's Laser Trident.
Black Hole Bomb: One use of it kills almost all enemies; you can control it's direction and when it detonates; absorbs all projectiles; stays for a while absorbing anything that approaches it until it disappears.
Tornado Blow: Inmediately clears the screen of almost all enemies; makes you jump higher which can be useful for saving time in stages and also make some parts easier.
Concrete Shot: Quite strong; uses a decent amount of WE; creates platforms that unless you watch speedruns you'll have no idea of why they're so useful.
Jewel Shield: Unarguably the best shield ever in the series so far.
Plug Ball: Uses a small amount of WE; you can rapid fire it; goes along the ground and walls which makes destroying some enemies easier, faster and safer to destroy (for example those cannon things). It's pretty underused IMO.
Hornet Chaser: Chases the enemy, and if it is destroyed and does not leave an item it will go to attack the next enemy; gets you the dropped items without having to go back/out of your way to get them, and also grabs any items the stage has already (except the tanks I think); great for safely destroying enemies that are out of reach or in a tricky position.
Magma Bazooka: The 3-way shot makes it easier to hit multiple enemies; charged Mazooka is quite strong and does not use as much WE as Atomic Fire; if you position yourself correctly while shooting the enemy will get hit by the 3 shots and receive double or triple the damage, this goes for bosses too.
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Magma Bazooka: The 3-way shot makes it easier to hit multiple enemies; charged Mazooka is quite strong and does not use as much WE as Atomic Fire; if you position yourself correctly while shooting the enemy will get hit by the 3 shots and receive double or triple the damage, this goes for bosses too.
Well THAT certainly helps beat the bosses for the Quickdraw achievements, doesn't it? :P
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Very well then. Allow me to analyze your first statements and offer my opinion on them...
Hazards are actually avoidable the first time through instead of relying on memorization, meaning the developers actually took the time to consider human reaction times.
No they're not. The hazards in this game are the same as any of the classic games. Just like with Spikes and Horizontal Death Beams and other hazards in the past, It takes trial and error and memorization. Just like MM1-6, once you know the hazards, the games are easy. MM9 put spikes in the nasty places, just like MM1-6 did. Jump at the wrong time, jump the wrong way, or miss, and you die. Standard 8-Bit MM gaming. Nothing's changed. If anything, due to the lack of the Slide, they are actually harder to avoid, as taking away that element makes moving through the game more difficult.
There are no enemies like the Hoppers in Shadow Man's stage. They're large enough for you to actually shoot. There are the floating tops, but those can be shot down. Only other troublesome enemies I can think of are the scissors and the flowerpots, but you generally have some way of dealing with them.
The Hoppers in ShadowMan's stage can very easily be shot once they jump, just like the floating tops on JewelMan's stage can be easily shot while falling. As for troublesome enemies, they is always a way to deal with them, in every 8-Bit MM game, so that points kinda moot. If anything, due to lack of Charge Shot, MM9's enemies can be more annoying than MM4-6's.
This game's large Jumper enemies can be shot down in a reasonable amount of time. For that matter, most enemies don't require you to spam the 2 button (okay, depends on your layout) like you're shivering to keep from getting damaged, which is really just a waste of everyone's time rather than a supposed show of skill.
The only game in which the large Jumper enemies CAN'T be shot down in a reasonable amount of time is MM1. That's what Ice Slasher is for. It's why MM1 is still the hardest 8-Bit classic game there is. Also, you really don't need to Jump Spam in general in most MegaMan games. However, the Octopus in MM9 requires such Jump Spamming, so that's really a moot point right there. Most MM games have 1 or 2 enemies like that. Some have none. MM4-6 had the Charge Shot, which made such Jump Spamming pretty much unnecessary.
The weapons are actually useful.
Replace useful with overpowered. Look, I'm not denying the usefulness of MM9's weapon. However, they really are tremendously overpowered. I think. to make up for the lack of Charge Shot, they overpowered the weapons. But, going by that, the weapons are just as good as MM1-4. I don't count 5 or 6 because there's no reason NEVER to not use the Overpowered Charge Shot. However, in MM1-4, I used the Weapons constantly and they got me through the game no different than MM9. Metal Blade, Pharaoh Shot, Magnet Missle, Elec Beam, and others.
The bosses follow logical movement patterns, and Magma Man's "random" jump element can be worked around instead of "dealt with" like you would have to Pharaoh Man, Shadow Man, Flash Man, or Quick Man.
All bosses have logical patterns. Patterns which can easily be dodged. Some are harder than others, but it can still be done. Just like with MM9.
Stage puzzles are over with fairly quickly compared to previous puzzles in the series.
See Hazards post up above.
The graphics are fine (considering), the music is great overall, and the controls are fluid.
Graphics are 8-Bit and not all that different. I believe Gauntlet said that MM5's were better, but I honestly never really payed attention to graphics in 8-Bit MM games. Music is fantastic, no doubt, however I like some themes no better or worse than MM1-6's themes as well. Controls are pretty much exactly the same. On a personal level, MM1-6 beats out MM9 due to the NES Advantage.
Mega Man 9 is, in every way, a better game than its 8-Bit counterparts. Kudos to the developers.
Agree? Or disagree?
Absolutely disagree. This is not coming from any kind of favoritism or bias. I love MM9 a lot. It's one of, if not, my favorite game release of this year. If you like MM9 better than the previous 8-Bit Games, that's all well and good, along with your personal preference. However, for the reasons you stated in this post, absolutely not. If anything, due to the lack of Slide and Charge Shot, it's actually a worse game than the other. I don't miss either of them at all really, but still, there's no reason to take them out other than nostalgia. I'm perfectly fine with that, mind you, but it's still might suck for other MM fans out there for them to just simply remove a staple of gameplay like that.
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It's why MM1 is still the hardest 8-Bit classic game there is.
Huh what? Wait a minute, why is MM1 hard? Since when was it hard to begin with?
Have you tried Rockman & Forte for Wonderswan? MM1 got nothing on that. >U<
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Huh what? Wait a minute, why is MM1 hard? Since when was it hard to begin with?
Have you tried Rockman & Forte for Wonderswan? MM1 got nothing on that. >U<
In terms of the original 8-Bit Games 1-6 I mean.
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Nexus: the boss's actual weaknesses are better. though Mazooka is useful on the Shark boss' head. and it's a good substitute on the final fight if you run out of Hornet Chaser.
Vixy: MM1 is definitely the hardest NES Mega Man.
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Nexus: the boss's actual weaknesses are better. though Mazooka is useful on the Shark boss' head. and it's a good substitute on the final fight if you run out of Hornet Chaser.
True, it's great for when you run out of WE for some reason though (for example Plugman).
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Huh what? Wait a minute, why is MM1 hard? Since when was it hard to begin with?
Have you tried Rockman & Forte for Wonderswan? MM1 got nothing on that. >U<
You may find it easy (I watched your JTV plays shortly before MM9 was released, and I was flabbergasted), but it's still the toughest compared to the other NES MM/RM games. >.>;;
Nexus: the boss's actual weaknesses are better. though Mazooka is useful on the Shark boss' head. and it's a good substitute on the final fight if you run out of Hornet Chaser.
Do note that I haven't played Mega Man 9 yet, except for an Xbox Live trial version of Concrete Man's level, so I don't know how well it would really work. (BTW, I died at the beginning of the level, too; I always did suck when it came to the NES games >.<)
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Without seeing a good comparison I can't really agree that MM9 > MM1-6. Just picking some flaws in other games and comparing it to where MM9 succeeds doesn't work for me.
@ Taiyo
You like MM6? Your credibility just shot down 10 points, sir! ~w~
I kid.
Yeah, I don't disagree that MM9's weapons are good. They are. But, yeah, overpowered is a good word. And it implies the weapons from past games weren't as good. Well ... I disagree. Used effectively and with about as much respect as people seem to have for MM9's weapons they can be useful.
And, come on now, Magma Bazooka was completely overshadowed in the game. T Blow, M Bazooka, and Plug Ball are the ones people reach for last. Jewel Satillite, the trident, and BH Bomb overshadow all the rest the same way Metal Blades overshadowed everythign in MM2.
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You may find it easy (I watched your JTV plays shortly before MM9 was released, and I was flabbergasted), but it's still the toughest compared to the other NES MM/RM games. >.>;;
Maybe by the damage the bosses and enemies deal at you, it might be hard. Knowing the game in and out, and winning against every boss with the buster alone counts as a easy game to me. ^^
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Oh, MM1 is very easy for me now too. I can breeze through the game no problem, cept for those damn Shooting Copter Platforms. I'm just saying, it was the hardest 8-Bit MM game.
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T Blow, M Bazooka, and Plug Ball are the ones people reach for last.
you come on. watch more recent videos and you'll see how wrong you are.
as for the weapons being useful. sure the past weapons are useful. to kill things. but C Shot, T Blow, and JS are multipurpose, helping in navigation and defense. BHB helps defensively as well, as it can suck up projectiles.
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you come on. watch more recent videos and you'll see how wrong you are.
as for the weapons being useful. sure the past weapons are useful. to kill things. but C Shot, T Blow, and JS are multipurpose, helping in navigation and defense. BHB helps defensively as well, as it can suck up projectiles.
That's a good point. Okay, you might be right about the weapons if you put it that way,
Edit: you know, tho, the origional point was "weapons are actually useful" ... which is what I really disagreed with. Weapons in other games are useful. Somewhere along the lines it became "MM9 has the best set of weapons". But you got a good point with the "to kill things".
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I definitely need a break from Auditing homework.
So, I got a good passionate response out of PB:
No they're not. The hazards in this game are the same as any of the classic games. Just like with Spikes and Horizontal Death Beams and other hazards in the past, It takes trial and error and memorization. Just like MM1-6, once you know the hazards, the games are easy. MM9 put spikes in the nasty places, just like MM1-6 did. Jump at the wrong time, jump the wrong way, or miss, and you die. Standard 8-Bit MM gaming. Nothing's changed. If anything, due to the lack of the Slide, they are actually harder to avoid, as taking away that element makes moving through the game more difficult.
The Hoppers in ShadowMan's stage can very easily be shot once they jump, just like the floating tops on JewelMan's stage can be easily shot while falling. As for troublesome enemies, they is always a way to deal with them, in every 8-Bit MM game, so that points kinda moot. If anything, due to lack of Charge Shot, MM9's enemies can be more annoying than MM4-6's.
The only game in which the large Jumper enemies CAN'T be shot down in a reasonable amount of time is MM1. That's what Ice Slasher is for. It's why MM1 is still the hardest 8-Bit classic game there is. Also, you really don't need to Jump Spam in general in most MegaMan games. However, the Octopus in MM9 requires such Jump Spamming, so that's really a moot point right there. Most MM games have 1 or 2 enemies like that. Some have none. MM4-6 had the Charge Shot, which made such Jump Spamming pretty much unnecessary.
Replace useful with overpowered. Look, I'm not denying the usefulness of MM9's weapon. However, they really are tremendously overpowered. I think. to make up for the lack of Charge Shot, they overpowered the weapons. But, going by that, the weapons are just as good as MM1-4. I don't count 5 or 6 because there's no reason NEVER to not use the Overpowered Charge Shot. However, in MM1-4, I used the Weapons constantly and they got me through the game no different than MM9. Metal Blade, Pharaoh Shot, Magnet Missle, Elec Beam, and others.
All bosses have logical patterns. Patterns which can easily be dodged. Some are harder than others, but it can still be done. Just like with MM9.
See Hazards post up above.
Graphics are 8-Bit and not all that different. I believe Gauntlet said that MM5's were better, but I honestly never really payed attention to graphics in 8-Bit MM games. Music is fantastic, no doubt, however I like some themes no better or worse than MM1-6's themes as well. Controls are pretty much exactly the same. On a personal level, MM1-6 beats out MM9 due to the NES Advantage.
Absolutely disagree. This is not coming from any kind of favoritism or bias. I love MM9 a lot. It's one of, if not, my favorite game release of this year. If you like MM9 better than the previous 8-Bit Games, that's all well and good, along with your personal preference. However, for the reasons you stated in this post, absolutely not. If anything, due to the lack of Slide and Charge Shot, it's actually a worse game than the other. I don't miss either of them at all really, but still, there's no reason to take them out other than nostalgia. I'm perfectly fine with that, mind you, but it's still might suck for other MM fans out there for them to just simply remove a staple of gameplay like that.
Hazards: I've still gotta disagree on this one. These puzzles seemed fairly reasonable compared to, say, MM5's disappearing blocks in the after-game stages. Granted, you could sit there and watch those, but they were more complex than either Plug Man's blocks or even Hornet Man's Rollout platforms. Perhaps not as an absolute, but I can safely say that you don't have to memorize the puzzle layouts of MM9 (certainly if compared to those of previous games). And the strange part, the majority of my opinion on that is based on how narrow the required jumps involved are. Puzzles are fairly straightforward unlike Dust Man's junk compactor; look, I shot a one-square hole for me to slide through, can't I just go on? Geez.
Hoppers: I hear ya on the Charge Shot. I'll admit, I was a bit disheartened to see the MM4 charge shot rather than the MM6, 7, or 8 shot which has a wider range. Regardless, what makes Hoppers more annoying is their placement relative to Mega Man's entrance onto the screen. I don't believe the enemy regeneration rate factors into those little guys, but it sure makes Mega Man 2 annoying.
Jumpers: Agreed, though I would say that a proper Mega Man game should be able to be beaten without using any special weapons. If Mega Man 2 ever did have Challenges, "Clear the game without using any Special Weapons" couldn't be one of them, thanks to the 2nd Wily Stage boss and Alien Wily.
Weapons: They're definitely strong, and I love it. But the good weapons to use take a very large chunk of energy. You don't even have enough weapon energy for Tornado Blow to finish Magma Man. As far as Plug Ball and Laser Trident go, well, we're used to having good weapons at a low cost, like Metal Blade. There should be at least one of those.
Sidenote - Gauntlet, actually, Plug Ball's even better than Bubble Lead. It goes up walls, follows around ceilings, and even erases Tornado Man's gusts of wind. Not to mention doing decent damage and taking very little weapon energy.
Boss Patterns: But you've got to admit, MM9's bosses don't have very random movement patterns like Quick Man and Flash Man. Shadow Man's randomness...well, double-edged sword, here. He either jumps high or low three times, then either slides or uses Shadow Blade. Still, it's enough to where considering how far he moves, you don't really have time to get far enough away to evade attack. Same for Hard Man.
Graphics: For all the trouble Inticreates went to to be "authentic", the "fades" in MM9 are way too fluid (between stage select/boss intro/game over/weapon get/etc). That said, everything else still meshes well, and the only ambiguity on hitboxes that I could find was on Magma Man. You could have done a short hop, looked like you didn't even touch him, and BAM, you're hit. And as far as controls, maybe there's not much difference between 2-5 and 9, but 1 sure has some issues.
Even for all its ups and downs, MM9 can be more fun than some of the older, supposedly "harder" games. Perhaps they are, but is it due to player error, or design flaw? The decision to remove the Slide? Eh, that I can let go. Sliding makes the bosses far too easy. Charge Shot? Yeah, that one I have a bit of an issue with, too. But, it seems like they designed this game to compensate for the loss, and yet didn't explain in the story why.
I can see why people wouldn't like MM9 for all the subjective reasons. Story, graphics, people might actually be really turned off by the concepts of Jewel Man and Splash Woman; we know Inafune was nervous about how people would react to her. There's just a really good chance that, objectively, it has the fewest design flaws, even if it removed or attempted some things.
I guess writing responses is where I shine. I'd never have recalled all this on my own.
Keep those thoughts coming!
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From what I've seen you need a good bit of luck and a great memory not to need any practice in the hazards and puzzles in MM9. I haven't encountered anything in any other MM game that didn't follow this concept. From Quickman's beams to Shadowman's or Flashman's pattern, all are memorisable and beatable. There's strategies to use against all of them, no matter how random they are. If you're great or / and lucky you can get by them in one go.
though I would say that a proper Mega Man game should be able to be beaten without using any special weapons.
Then wouldn't MM9 fail that criteria? You definately need Splash Woman's weapon in one of the Wily stages to get by. Unless you don't count Rush (I would) you also need Tornado Hold in Wily 1.
You can get by the large jumpers in MM1 without any weapons. Just run under them when they jump high. It's tricky, but doable.
edit:
The fogs in Shadow's level are designed to make things a bit harder. Like the fleas and the gabryols (sp?) they're annoyances that make the game a bit more challenging. Conversly, MM9 also has the sparks in Plug's level that don't seem to be beatable easily with the Buster. Like the frogs in MM3, you can beat them with a special weapon (that is, if you don't wait for the frogs to jump). Arguing their placement seems odd, considering many enemies can be said not to fit into their level. Why are there suddennly MM1-era mets all over MM9?
Speaking of new problems, Protoman being a playable character is a bit of one. Namely, the lack of story and ending. I felt the cutscenes added a rather nice touch to the game, so it's odd that Proto doesn't have any. But not only no cutscenes, but no ending as well. This is something I don't understand and it feels like they just didn't have enough time to polish Protoman up before releasing him. If we ever got an official answer to this, I'll bet it's just something they didn't have time to finish.
Like many people said Roll's costumes costing so much and providing so little is another pitfall in the special features of the game. For so much, wouldn't playing as Bass be a better feature? Or getting Protoman's shield? Or ... maybe a heck of a lot of costumes? Again, it feels like there was more to that that didn't get put in.
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There's just a really good chance that, objectively, it has the fewest design flaws,
Although the player usually has plenty of Laser Trident. Even so, yes, that is a hindrance.
Rush can withstand spikes (lucky dog), so it's beatable. You can also use the Rush Jet/Rush Coil trick to get up high.
Here's the thing about them:
You try to run under them. Okay. IF, by chance, it jumped too low, you get hit, like, half your life. This happens often.
Try to shoot 'em down. Fine, but by the time you defeat it before getting hit (IF you do), the regeneration rate kicks in.
Heh, the fleas didn't bother me so much; the bouncing balls on the first cat were the tricky part. Ugh.
I didn't mind Proto Man not having a story; alternate timelines and whatnot have plagued MM games (namely, MM&B and MMX4). The Roll Costume thing, though...and especially since both Roll and Proto Man were playable in MM:PU...
Even then, these secrets beat just having Proto Man's shield, and certainly beat a...balloon power-up (though that Grappling Hook was cool).
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I'm not that great of a player and I don't have that hard of a time with the Big Eyes of MM1. If I can get by them, so can the average player. It's just a matter of staying reletively close and then running at the right time. Or hitting them with a buster barrage until they fall. Similar jumpers in 3 account for the slide to get you by easily or are placed in such a way that beating them is easier if you wait for them to make their move.
Anyhow, I'm not sure requireing Master Weapons is really a design flaw. It's just a different mindset in making a Megaman game. You could argue that making MM2 rely on master weapons made each one of them justified. And that it added to the challenge. It's a cheap shot, but sometimes that's what games are for.
Some of the things you're chalking up to design flaws seem to me to be the MM teams trying different sets of challenges. Enemies too low to shoot until they jump were introduced in MM1 and the Fleas were far more annoying than MM3's frogs. But both enemies could be easily dispatched with master weapons tho. MM9's spinners and sparks seem to have the exact same concept.
Edit:
I mean, your definition of a "design flaw" doesn't seem to actually be a true flaw, but is just a part where you think the game designers were, perhapse, a bit unfair. Megaman is a memorisation game. Dying and anticipating a pattern is a part of the memorisation process.
I mean ... to me King's 3-in-one level in R&F suffers from a design flaw. Each stage is complete and challenging, but it doesn't give players a break if they die. You gotta repeat three entire stages because they are, technically, one stage. This is a design flaw because the difficulty level skyrockets on the final King, while the prior two levels aren't quite so bad.
MM1 has one very big design flaw: they allow you access to Wily if you don't collect Magnet Beam. This is probably why essential items are just given to you in later games rather than found in the stages. And if you don't have it you ar stuck and have to reset the game. This is a design flaw.
You can say MM2's first Wily level suffers from a design flaw becuase there's few enemies to farm powerups from if you waste out of item energy. That's a flaw because it negates the amount of lives you have and is more of a time waster than a challenge. It's not the use of items, it's the lack of enemies to farm off should you fail multiple times. There's a Joe and a Scworm, but they don't drop things very quickly.
MM3 has a similar flaw in Doc Gemini's level, according to Zan. If you manage to make it to the other side of the great abyss without any Rush Coil and Rush jet weapon energy you are stuck just below the door. Even if you have to be a total idiot mixed with a great gamer to manage this feat, it's still a flaw in level design.
But the "randomness" of some RMs and the pattern of the dissappearing blocks don't really seem like objective flaws to me. They seem like the nature of the beast. Okay, you don't feel like they should be programmed that way. You could say this adds a level of frustration maybe. But ... that is not a true flaw. The disappearing blocks are beatable. Especially if you know that, eventually, they're going to appear right above your head .... and especially if they're in a single screen.
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Hazards are actually avoidable the first time through instead of relying on memorization, meaning the developers actually took the time to consider human reaction times.
I don't know what the hell game you were playing. MM9 throws some of the cheapest death-traps in the series against you, barring MM1's dreaded gun platforms in Wily Stage 1. There are several death traps with no way of forseeing them, including the entirely too abundant helicopter claws and the first spikes block in Splash Woman's stage. Spark Man Doc Robot has nothing on that.
As far as I'm concerned there is too LITTLE in MM9 that relates to reaction times as compared to other NES games, MM3 especially. And not only does this mean more cheap deaths, but it also means that once you learn them, the game is too simple. MM9 is nowhere near the greatness of its predecessors in that department. It was saved by one thing: DLC. For the basic package, it doesn't live up to its heritage.
And while you are certainly welcome to your opinion, if the Shadow Man/Top Man hoppers are your idea of troublesome then I think you need to fine-tune your skills a bit.
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I don't know what the hell game you were playing. MM9 throws some of the cheapest death-traps in the series against you, barring MM1's dreaded gun platforms in Wily Stage 1. There are several death traps with no way of forseeing them, including the entirely too abundant helicopter claws and the first spikes block in Splash Woman's stage. Spark Man Doc Robot has nothing on that.
I've never seen what was so troublesome about those spikes Splash Woman's stage, never gave me trouble. However, I do agree 9 has the cheapest deaths.
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I think the series peaked at 5 for graphics
Now what's this all about? I have trouble thinking of any real stand-out moments in 5's graphics, but 6 had some of the most advanced and beautiful graphics in the NES series. Or maybe I'm just easily dazzled when an NES game actually bothers to have background graphics in outdoor levels, because I always think back to TomahawkMan's sunset and YamatoMan's mountain at the beginning, though YamatoMan's stage looked nice overall. And you had the nice new animations with the Rush Armors... MM4 and 5 were no slouches in the graphics department, either, though. Maybe I'll have to look over screenshots of all the games again sometime.
Quick - I never use this weapon except against the dragon and Guts Dozer. Not very useful. Too much like the buster, not enough range.
Eh, I find those to be good points. It's got the speed and effectiveness of Metal Blade, but confined to a small area so you can really wail on an enemy once it gets in range. I found it helpful against Springers in some places and against Sniper Joes when there wasn't room to dodge, for example. I think Quick Boomerang even beat that giant fish in one hit, at least in the NES version.
Magnet - Most useful weapon in MM3. Good against the stationary subboses.
I never found it very useful because it's such an energy guzzler, especially for a weapon whose intended use allows it to miss fairly often against fast enemies and enemies that fire projectiles.
Spark - Freezes the big "jumpers" in place, so it shares that use with Ice Slasher in MM1. Still, it's too much like Arm Cannon.
Um, Spark Shock freezes ANY enemy in place that's not a boss or invulnerable. It's nothing like the Mega Buster. In fact, it's really more like a combination of the worst traits of Ice Slasher and Time Stopper: You have to freeze individual enemies by aiming at them, but you can't switch weapons while an enemy is frozen, frozen enemies still hurt you, and once two enemies are frozen, you can't fire anymore. (I believe this is because the game considers the "static field" around an enemy to be one of your projectiles. Just watch what happens when a moving enemy collides with a frozen enemy in the NES version.)
MM1 has one very big design flaw: they allow you access to Wily if you don't collect Magnet Beam. This is probably why essential items are just given to you in later games rather than found in the stages. And if you don't have it you ar stuck and have to reset the game. This is a design flaw.
Well, it's not a fatal flaw in that you merely have to lose all your lives so you can revisit ElecMan, but it could easily make new players give up the game in frustration if they fail to think of doing that.
You can say MM2's first Wily level suffers from a design flaw becuase there's few enemies to farm powerups from if you waste out of item energy. That's a flaw because it negates the amount of lives you have and is more of a time waster than a challenge. It's not the use of items, it's the lack of enemies to farm off should you fail multiple times. There's a Joe and a Scworm, but they don't drop things very quickly.
I remember that was also an issue with Boo Beam Trap, which drains most or all of your Crash Bomber and some of your Items. When I fail at it, I've found myself journeying back to the Metalls in the first vertical section for easier energy farming.
And that's why I don't like energy guzzlers. (Some weapons that use more than 1 unit don't really count as guzzlers due to their nature, though. For example, who would bother to use 14 of GutsMan's blocks in a single level without ever refilling?)
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Hazards: I've still gotta disagree on this one. These puzzles seemed fairly reasonable compared to, say, MM5's disappearing blocks in the after-game stages. Granted, you could sit there and watch those, but they were more complex than either Plug Man's blocks or even Hornet Man's Rollout platforms. Perhaps not as an absolute, but I can safely say that you don't have to memorize the puzzle layouts of MM9 (certainly if compared to those of previous games). And the strange part, the majority of my opinion on that is based on how narrow the required jumps involved are. Puzzles are fairly straightforward unlike Dust Man's junk compactor; look, I shot a one-square hole for me to slide through, can't I just go on? Geez.
Um, not to be rude, but the two things you mentioned from MM4 & MM5 are not only easy, but PAINFULLY easy. In the history of me playing those two games, I've NEVER died at any of those point. Ever.
Hoppers: I hear ya on the Charge Shot. I'll admit, I was a bit disheartened to see the MM4 charge shot rather than the MM6, 7, or 8 shot which has a wider range. Regardless, what makes Hoppers more annoying is their placement relative to Mega Man's entrance onto the screen. I don't believe the enemy regeneration rate factors into those little guys, but it sure makes Mega Man 2 annoying.
Again, I've never had a problem with those things. But, if you want to talk about screen placement like that as an example, sometimes those Spiders in MM9 are the exact same way, in terms of placement. So this point is once again moot.
Jumpers: Agreed, though I would say that a proper Mega Man game should be able to be beaten without using any special weapons. If Mega Man 2 ever did have Challenges, "Clear the game without using any Special Weapons" couldn't be one of them, thanks to the 2nd Wily Stage boss and Alien Wily.
MM9 doesn't have that challenge either. The challenge is, "CLEAR THE GAME BY USING THE LEAST AMOUNT OF WEAPON ENERGY POSSIBLE!" which can be done in any MM game, by the logic you've stated above.
Weapons: They're definitely strong, and I love it. But the good weapons to use take a very large chunk of energy. You don't even have enough weapon energy for Tornado Blow to finish Magma Man. As far as Plug Ball and Laser Trident go, well, we're used to having good weapons at a low cost, like Metal Blade. There should be at least one of those.
Yes you do. Tornado Blow can finish Magma Man off with all it's weapon energy. It just depends on where you hit him. Also, that point is moot being the in the majority of Classic MM games, the Weapon used to beat said RM usually does it with the greatest of ease. No, the MM9 weapons are definitely overpowered, even with a couple of them using high weapon energy. But Jewel Satellite doesn't, can stay on you for a long time, and that's the best weapon in the game, by far.
Boss Patterns: But you've got to admit, MM9's bosses don't have very random movement patterns like Quick Man and Flash Man. Shadow Man's randomness...well, double-edged sword, here. He either jumps high or low three times, then either slides or uses Shadow Blade. Still, it's enough to where considering how far he moves, you don't really have time to get far enough away to evade attack. Same for Hard Man.
That's because some of the MM9 bosses have downright Wii-tarded patterns. Most of them are easy to figure out, and the harder ones just take trial and error, just like the 3 you mentioned. And seriously, HardMan? Terrible example, cause if you have trouble beating him, then man o man...
Graphics: For all the trouble Inticreates went to to be "authentic", the "fades" in MM9 are way too fluid (between stage select/boss intro/game over/weapon get/etc). That said, everything else still meshes well, and the only ambiguity on hitboxes that I could find was on Magma Man. You could have done a short hop, looked like you didn't even touch him, and BAM, you're hit. And as far as controls, maybe there's not much difference between 2-5 and 9, but 1 sure has some issues.
Well that's because it's a more polished 8-Bit game. I'm not disagreeing with that. However, graphics, especially the close to exact same graphics as the other MM games do not make the game any better. As for controls, MM1 was the first, so it stands to reason that the sequel games are going to be better.
Even for all its ups and downs, MM9 can be more fun than some of the older, supposedly "harder" games. Perhaps they are, but is it due to player error, or design flaw? The decision to remove the Slide? Eh, that I can let go. Sliding makes the bosses far too easy. Charge Shot? Yeah, that one I have a bit of an issue with, too. But, it seems like they designed this game to compensate for the loss, and yet didn't explain in the story why.
I can see why people wouldn't like MM9 for all the subjective reasons. Story, graphics, people might actually be really turned off by the concepts of Jewel Man and Splash Woman; we know Inafune was nervous about how people would react to her. There's just a really good chance that, objectively, it has the fewest design flaws, even if it removed or attempted some things.
Okay, and here's where your argument, like most Greater or Less than discussions come to a halt. You like MM9 better because of personal preference. This is why this debate will get us nowhere. This could go on and on, but even if I were to logically answer every single point you make, chances are you'd still think MM9 was better or more fun. From what I've debated with you about, it seems that you like MM9 better than the other's because it's easier, in regards to hoppers, puzzles, boss patterns, and so on. You've mentioned parts in the old Classic MM games that I've NEVER had a problem with. So again, I absolutely disagree that MM9 is a better game than MM1-MM6.
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if it helps, ALL nes megarockmans are hard.... for me :3
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This topic has mainly turned to a Mega Weapons debate, but I will offer some thoughts about other things as well:
I agree. MM1 was hard.
The funny thing about MM9 is that it's the first time that I enjoy every weapon in that game. It's the first time I make full use of every weapon, which in contrary to MM1-6, I pretty much was almost always using the Mega Buster only.
But that only applies to me personally. Here's a quick run down for the MM9 weapons:
Black Hole Bomb stands above Metal Blade for me. I just love the fact how multiple enemies can get insta destroyed by it, how it functions as a defense force, that it is operable to navigate and it's also another pause trick weapon, see Wily 3 Devil Blob boss.
Concrete Shot can instantly swallow huge enemies(But not the hopper, that takes 4 hits) such as the cannon, can instantly drain enemies and bosses plus it's like a semi Rush Coil weapon as well. That, and it stops beams.
Laser Trident is very useful throughout the whole game, being another spammable low WE weapon with a bonus that it pierces through shield enemies such as Sniper Joes as well.
Tornado Blow is useful to clear out many small enemies, but also to kill some of the bosses very fast such as Wily 2's 2nd robot phase, Magma Man and the flower mini boss. Still, there are much faster ways to kill that flower. I am not that fond of the extra high jump you can take while using it, but maybe that is because I haven't used it well yet.
I did not like Magma Bazooka at first, for being too primitive. But then stupid me found out that it was chargeable, plus the damage would be even worse when using this close up. It can kill the flower mini boss in possible the fastest way that I know of, reaches out very far with it's 3 shots, charges very fast, being like a better Atomic Fire and replaceable Mega Buster and it is quite spammable as well.
Plug Ball travels very fast, and is the second most spammable Mega Weapon in the game. Plug Ball might not seem useful at first, but I mainly use it throughout the difficult parts where the enemies are hard to hit without getting yourself hit. I am mainly talking about the Sniper Joes's positions in the Wily Stages then. I also of course use it against Tornado Man and Wily's Flying Saucer.
And lastly Jewel Satellite takes brokenness to a new level. I don't even need to explain this one.
As for Mega Man 9 being the best classic game yet...it isn't for me. That honor goes to Mega Man 3 for the obvious reasons many fans can state, plus the fact that it is a very memorable treasure from the past for me.
I really need to start USING the Mega Weapons, especially in MM4-6 from now on.
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I've never seen what was so troublesome about those spikes Splash Woman's stage, never gave me trouble. However, I do agree 9 has the cheapest deaths.
They don't give you trouble when you know they're there. When you don't (first time), you die. The game drops you right onto the middle of a four-block spike patch at the BOTTOM of an otherwise empty screen, meaning you have no warning as the screen shifts. By the time you see them, you're already falling and don't have enough time to correct your path. The only way you don't die there is to already know where you're going before you make the drop.
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Mind you, the Hoppers, puzzles, and whatnot are more of a hassle than they are difficult (only sorta, and they were only that difficult the first time you encountered them).
And while you are certainly welcome to your opinion, if the Shadow Man/Top Man hoppers are your idea of troublesome then I think you need to fine-tune your skills a bit.
And seriously, HardMan? Terrible example, cause if you have trouble beating him, then man o man...
Ooh, those Doc Robot stages. Really, talk about exact jumps.
...but now wait, if MM9's cheap, and I seem to be good at it, how do I somehow not have the skill?
Or do I have a different set of skills?
Yet another thing to consider.
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...but now wait, if MM9's cheap, and I seem to be good at it, how do I somehow not have the skill?
Or do I have a different set of skills?
Yet another thing to consider.
I never said MM9 was cheap.
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Actually, I was tying that in to my supposed lack of skill.
EDIT:
I figured at about the first half of the second page after someone had posed the question, it'd be over with, the hard part being actually saying which is the best.
Thinking back through each stage of each game, though, I can see preferences and various skills of each individual player, and then tastes, start to really make this complicated.
I doubt we could even come up with a universal "> List" of each game, at this point. It's no wonder Sonic games and the Mario Kart series seem to get off-track.
Being a game designer would be a lot harder than I thought.
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It's just difference in skills, not a lack of it. If you're already good at the previous MM games, then you don't really have any significant problems with this game either. Some of us use over-natural skills tho, that lets us beat the game under 25 minutes at the least. Different routes, different techniques. ^^
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I'm not much of a speed-runner, nor do I ever really investigate the fastest way around certain enemies or obstacles.
But I do know traps, and I know how they'll probably be sequenced, and I know how to survive them and judge whether or not I can make a long jump or not (the furthest jump Megaman can make if he's right on the edge is roughly a 4-tile jump @ same elevation; based on MM9's tile width).
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...but now wait, if MM9's cheap, and I seem to be good at it, how do I somehow not have the skill?
Or do I have a different set of skills?
I didn't say you don't have them, I'm saying some refinement may be in order. The lack of perfection is human nature.
Hoppers are, unlike mets, never invulnerable, they're just inconveniently flat. While you can kill them through timing alone, if that's too much of a hassle, you can always switch to a special weapon with wider coverage (ie, Needle Cannon).
And personally, on the topic of annoying enemies, I found MM9's pottet plant rocket launchers to be annoying. As you said, not difficult, but just a pain. You either have to approach them carefully (I hate tip-toeing in MegaMan games), get equipped with the broken Jewel Satellite, or curse at the game's lack of sliding.
That's another minor annoyance of MM9. There are many instances in which I feel the designers merely throw the control/game engine limits at you. It's not just enemy speed going beyond slideless MegaMan levels, either. A lot of obstacles, particularly in Galaxy Man and Jewel Man, are merely testing how well you can snake your jumping path in a restrictive game format. To me it feels cheap. MM1-3 weren't like that.
Yet another is that I feel the game's shop is badly done, but I lack either the will or the time to go into that in detail now.
I doubt we could even come up with a universal "> List" of each game, at this point. It's no wonder Sonic games and the Mario Kart series seem to get off-track.
Being a game designer would be a lot harder than I thought.
You have learned a very valuable lesson, although it shouldn't take long if you've ever read any "how to fix Sonic" discussions. But the same applies, to varying degrees, to all games.
It's just difference in skills, not a lack of it. If you're already good at the previous MM games, then you don't really have any significant problems with this game either. Some of us use over-natural skills tho, that lets us beat the game under 25 minutes at the least. Different routes, different techniques. ^^
Or No Damage Clear Avalanche Yeti.
Wrong series, I know, but I gotta bloat my ego somehow. 8)
Personally I think both Speed runs and "perfect" runs are a measure of dedication, not skill. They're just trial-and-error. Sometimes a FRICKIN' LONG AND INHUMAN amount of trial-and-error, but still.
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Some of us use over-natural skills tho, that lets us beat the game under 25 minutes at the least. Different routes, different techniques. ^^
but i suck at Classic games...
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Now what's this all about? I have trouble thinking of any real stand-out moments in 5's graphics, but 6 had some of the most advanced and beautiful graphics in the NES series. Or maybe I'm just easily dazzled when an NES game actually bothers to have background graphics in outdoor levels, because I always think back to TomahawkMan's sunset and YamatoMan's mountain at the beginning, though YamatoMan's stage looked nice overall. And you had the nice new animations with the Rush Armors... MM4 and 5 were no slouches in the graphics department, either, though. Maybe I'll have to look over screenshots of all the games again sometime.
I'm not gonna go into arguing statements about past weapons. It's neither here nor there. I was asked to give my take on how MM9 stacks up and that's what I did. You can disagree, but it's still what true for me. Feel free to make your own list. Although it's kinda pointless since the intent was showing that other games had useful weapons. They do, but it was pointed out that some in MM9 are useful in strategic ways.
As for MM5 being the best graphics-wise, I'm sticking by that statement. MM6 was good, but not better than 5. Crystalman's stage is like a better version of Geminiman's. While Napalm's is in the 'nam. Gyro could have a pretty boring design, but they didn't cut any corners and it had nice detail.
Meanwhile, when I think back too MM6, it's graphics don't really jump out at me. You're right, the outdoor scene of Yamato's is amazing. Too bad that's just the one screen. The rest isn't bad, by any means, but I can't help but like what I saw in MM5 either just as much or better than 6. And 4 had great graphics too, but MM5 just improved on tham. Which is only natural.
Getting to the topic, MM9 tries to emulate MM2. It has worse graphics on purpose. That's their artistic choice, but like game hacks, I'm more impressed when they push the NES capabilities as far as they can go. MM9 relies on the black quite a bit. Splash Woman's stage in particular struck me as much more empty and flat than they would really have made a game in even the early NES MM era.
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You have learned a very valuable lesson, although it shouldn't take long if you've ever read any "how to fix Sonic" discussions. But the same applies, to varying degrees, to all games.
At least we're not trying to perfect greatness in Sonic; we're just trying to get that to a decent level. :|
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I never ever thought I would say this in my wildest dreams, BUT, nostalgia bias aside, I would have to agree that MM9 > 1-6. I think it beats even 2 and 3.
I've weighed everything (difficulty, design, music, bosses, weapons, story, innovativeness, etc).
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As far as weapons goes, here's the order (8 bit games)
1. Megaman 9: Best weapon arsenal, period.
2. Megaman 4: Before MM9, MM4 was the ONLY game where the weapons are not just powerful projectiles, but almost all of them has some extra ability.
3. No, still not your Megaman 2, it's the original Megaman 1 hands down. Yes, hyper bomb sucks and super arm is the most situational weapon ever, but the other 4 are just plain win.
4. Megaman 2.
5. Megaman 6.
6. Megaman 10.
7. Megaman 3: Half of the weapons are generally weak, the second half is just MEH.
8. Megaman 5: Worst arsenal ever.
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You're two years late buddy