RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => ZX => Topic started by: CyberXIII on October 29, 2009, 01:27:45 AM
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In ZX, Ciel is shown to have created the original biometals and ROCK/MEGA system to combat Model W/V which was made from Ragnarok. ZXA implies that Albert created them, and built hundreds of Model W's based off the core fragment Serpent merged with in the previous game. Then it says that he encoded them with his own data so that only certain people could unlock and merge with them.
What am I missing here? I'm confused...
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I may be wrong, but Ciel created Models X, Z, L, H, P, and F; Albert created Model A (and may have messed with the originals).
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I don't see what there is to be confused about.
Model W - Albert
Model A - Albert
Model X - Ciel
Model Z - Ciel
Model H - Ciel
Model L - Ciel
Model F - Ciel
Model P - Ciel
Model O - Unknown; canonically questionable
Model a - Unknown; canonically questionable; actual fragment may not exist as it is an A-Trans form
Albert did not create anything from Serpent's core, he is the one who originally created Model W using what was left of Ragnarok. In other words, Albert is the original creator of Biometal, and of the R.O.C.K. System, which Model W uses the same as the other models. And he made Serpent's core the same as he made all the other cores.
The R.O.C.K. System works only with the Chosen Ones: those people which Albert has marked using his DNA. Ciel created her Biometals in order to counter Model W using her research on it, but she did not understand Model W fully, and thus that same restriction from Model W was carried over into her own Biometals. Those who can use Ciel's Biometal are the same as those who can use Model W: Chosen Ones selected by Albert (with the exception of Ashe).
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Let's talk about how Inticreates can't write storylines worth dick & how all the biometals are copies, not the originals in biometal form. Right? I was never too sure on that. X & Zero are dead at this point?
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Let's talk about how Inticreates can't write storylines worth dick & how all the biometals are copies, not the originals in biometal form. Right? I was never too sure on that.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Inti's writing in ZX and Advent.
Despite that, there's a shockingly vast amount of people that do not comprehend even the most basic plot points from these games.
And really now, the next person to seriously make the claim that the Livemetals are not the originals deserves to be "Gannon Banned." They can come back once they've taken the Reading Comprehension 101 course. More specifically, once they figure out the meaning of the word "consciousness".
X & Zero are dead at this point?
As dead as Phantom. Which only strengthens the fact that we are dealing with the originals.
Model O - Unknown; canonically questionable
Fleuve made it! >.>
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Let's talk about how Inticreates can't write storylines worth dick & how all the biometals are copies, not the originals in biometal form. Right? I was never too sure on that. X & Zero are dead at this point?
The game itself states it is the originals.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Inti's writing in ZX and Advent.
Despite that, there's a shockingly vast amount of people that do not comprehend even the most basic plot points from these games.
And really now, the next person to seriously make the claim that the Livemetals are not the originals deserves to be "Gannon Banned." They can come back once they've taken the Reading Comprehension 101 course. More specifically, once they figure out the meaning of the word "consciousness".
Gannon Banned... XD
I have to agree here... The writing seems fine to me, and pretty understandable. Story is pretty clear as well.
Consciousness, and the original which uses SOUL. when taking that into account, it should be blatantly obvious. Anyone who cant get it even though there are those 2 words used, will never get it even if it smacks them in the face.
Fleuve made it! >.>
yet you cant get it until after the game. Light gives X the Ultimate Armor in X4, but that doesnt mean it is canonical to the actual events of X4.
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Seems pretty canonical to me. Considering the thing is in X5.
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yeah, but in X5 it was actually a story element as X uses it against Zero. in X4 its only obtainable by cheat code. the matter is WHEN did it become canonical? definitely not in X4, and in X6, its back to just a mere cheat code bonus. X5 is the only one it is canonical in. (possibly X8, since you can get it legit- but like Ox, after you beat the game with certain requirements...
XCM is another one. Which im not too sure about. Signs point to it being canonical, but...
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Even if just a code, I think there always was some validity to Right creating an Ultimate Armor but it still being incomplete. If it was just a just in inconsequential bonus, they wouldn't have made Light explain it and just have X start with it from the get go.
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I guess they needed SOMETHING to say, just to validify it, I assume they didnt give it right off the bat simply because the way the put it in was as an upgrade by capsule- i dunno.
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yet you cant get it until after the game. Light gives X the Ultimate Armor in X4, but that doesnt mean it is canonical to the actual events of X4.
Minor correction there. You cannot use Model OX until after the game. You can, however, obtain Model O as soon as you have access to Area N. It just doesn't do anything until Fleuve examines it, which he refuses to until you're on a Clear file.
yeah, but in X5 it was actually a story element as X uses it against Zero. in X4 its only obtainable by cheat code.
However messing with that is the fact that the Ultimate Armor which X is using against Zero is very clearly the X4 design and not the X5 design.
X4's code doesn't directly unlock the UA but rather unlocks the scenario in which Light gives it to X. Such an alternate seems valid, and the mention that "this armor is not completed yet and your safety is not assured" at the same time gives X a reason to be hesitant to use it, not that he wouldn't be regardless as X isn't the type to wield overwhelming power without caution.
As for X6, if not for adding a third color scheme I'd have said that it was most likely supposed to be a "what if" scenario as to whether or not X had been using it in X5. Maybe that is it and X just decided during the last three weeks that black would look cool. >.>
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X was emo because Zero was dead, so he painted it black.
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They never actually said Zero was dead, just missing, they even have this little photo of this sign with a picture of zero, and in big bold letters it says MISSING.
The ultimate armor really isnt a big deal of the storyline seeing it not be of much importance or else X would have used it more.
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But everyone pretty much thought he was dead, but simply didnt want to believe it.
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Between "missing" and "never seen again", I think that's pretty much proof positive of his being dead.
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X himself states that he searched all over for his parts, his signal, "But..." (Or something like that)
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Ok, checking back, I see now... X5. Was talking about Z4 instead, my bad.
In regards to his X5 "death." Not unless you count X has having died as well. Everyone assumes his survival because X too survived. The fact that X didn't find anything but the Z-saber was all the more reason for Zero to be alive. X never had any doubts and even feels his presence at times. Nobody but Gate really assumes he has died, and even if he actually did, he was revived again. As a matter of fact, if Zero himself is to be literally believed; he never died, not even in X1.
Whereas in regards to Z4, him being missing is directly related to never being seen again, therefore he's dead from that point onward.
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Oh, for some reason I had thought that X & Zero were dead dead, like Mega Man dead.
I always figured the color scheme change was because the armor was in different stages of development. All those colors mean a lot in 21XX technology, otherwise Light wouldn't put lights all over them.
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It occurred to me that I forgot Model a in my last list, not that it means much. Nevertheless, for completion's sake, I added it.
Oh, for some reason I had thought that X & Zero were dead dead, like Mega Man dead.
I don't see how anyone who's actually played ZX gathers that, yet apparently many do. Their only basis of this is Ciel's statement as to "the data I have obtained on ancient heroes", and since when is a Reploid soul not considered data? I believe that was established in Xtreme2 some 450+ years ago, not to mention the fact that floating program life objects were everywhere in the Zero series.
Even if you completely ignore the use of the word "consciousness" by Prairie, there's no getting around the fact that Model H refers to the battle to protect humans hundreds of years ago as their own actions and not those of some ambiguous legendary heroes. So that is two in-game accounts which establish the Biometals as actually being the souls of the legendary heroes which they represent.
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I don't see how anyone who's actually played ZX gathers that, yet apparently many do.
Never mind anybody who's played the ZERO-series. Both the first and third game have pretty clearly established how far copying the legendary heroes will get you. The Livemetal's capabilities far exceed that of a copy.
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I don't see what there is to be confused about.
Model W - Albert
Model A - Albert
Model X - Ciel
Model Z - Ciel
Model H - Ciel
Model L - Ciel
Model F - Ciel
Model P - Ciel
Model O - Unknown; canonically questionable
Model a - Unknown; canonically questionable; actual fragment may not exist as it is an A-Trans form
Albert did not create anything from Serpent's core, he is the one who originally created Model W using what was left of Ragnarok. In other words, Albert is the original creator of Biometal, and of the R.O.C.K. System, which Model W uses the same as the other models. And he made Serpent's core the same as he made all the other cores.
The R.O.C.K. System works only with the Chosen Ones: those people which Albert has marked using his DNA. Ciel created her Biometals in order to counter Model W using her research on it, but she did not understand Model W fully, and thus that same restriction from Model W was carried over into her own Biometals. Those who can use Ciel's Biometal are the same as those who can use Model W: Chosen Ones selected by Albert (with the exception of Ashe).
Yes, but if Albert created the original R.O.C.K system, how did Ciel figure out how to make the other 6 biometals? Also, how could he mark those chosen ones if he didn't know the other biometals existed at the time?
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Yes, but if Albert created the original R.O.C.K system, how did Ciel figure out how to make the other 6 biometals? Also, how could he mark those chosen ones if he didn't know the other biometals existed at the time?
Little something called "reverse engineering".
After all, she has had access to a Model W fragment, and a Model W core. as well as Weil's area of expertise, reploid resurrection. (since Weil himself was bonded to Ragnarok Already. the others werent)
also, Albert marked the chosen ones for Model W, nothing else. they are people whom he has randomly selected to be elegible to use his model W's, of which he has made so many.
Ciel's biometals, since they use the same exact technology as model W, are therefore also compatible with anyone who is able to use Model W. Therefore, anyone Albert has put his DNA in to be a chosen one, can either wield Model W, or Ciel's biometals.
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Flame basically nailed it. Ciel's use of the R.O.C.K. System comes from researching Model W. The fact that she used that research in making her own Biometal is specifically stated in-game.
There is no reason Albert has to be aware of the existence of any other Biometals to mark multiple Chosen Ones since his plan involves the use of multiple MegaMen fighting each other to begin with. Albert simply planned to give them all Model W fragments, and the existence of Ciel's Biometal presented a unique opportunity. When exactly Albert became aware of Ciel's Biometal is not stated, but he did at some point collect data on them; his first second form in ZX Advent has an attack borrowed from all seven of the other Models.
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I think you mean his SECOND form, Hyper...
Also, its kind of making pasta, then someone comes up and adds oil and grated cheese. It wasnt what you originally intended to eat, but it presents an interesting taste. Some variety.
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Wat.
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Mmm... Pasta...
Mmm... Forbidden Donut...
I think you mean his SECOND form, Hyper...
Yes, I did, sorry. I'm in the habit of thinking of human-sized as the first and giant monsters as the final; Albert reverses that trend.
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Yes, I did, sorry. I'm in the habit of thinking of human-sized as the first and giant monsters as the final; Albert reverses that trend.
As well as making the first form more epic than the second.
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Model W - Albert
Model A - Albert
Model X - Ciel
Model Z - Ciel
Model H - Ciel
Model L - Ciel
Model F - Ciel
Model P - Ciel
Model O - Unknown; canonically questionable
Model a - Unknown; canonically questionable; actual fragment may not exist as it is an A-Trans form
I've always felt Model O and Model a were little bonuses like the street fighter moves in X1 and X2. They shouldn't be seen as canon at all, but are there for us to enjoy if we seek them out.
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We cant say that for sure. Omega himself is canon, as he has his own Datadisk. Its the biometal thats the mystery. you can interact with Fleuve to get it, but only after clearing the game, and it has no impact on the story. Plus, you can get it without ever even seeing Omega. Just beat the Z3 and 4 bosses.
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I don't see how you can deny Model O's canon status, Flammole mentioned sensing a very strong Livemetal that he initially believed to be Vent/Aile's. Upon his death he realized it wasn't them he sensed, and he wonders if it was Model V or something else.
ZX Tunes outright says it was not Model V, but that what he actually sensed was a given.
Not to mention, Area N exists solely for the challenge to obtain the mysterious stone. Are you going to pronounce a whole area non-canon?
And besides, the Street Fighter moves in X1 and X2 are canon. Right was a practitioner of martial arts/maybe ansatsuken and X can use chi to throw fireballs because his soul is nearly human.
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I really wish Sigma could use the Psycho Crusher.
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Its the biometal thats the mystery. you can interact with Fleuve to get it, but only after clearing the game
Again, the BIOMETAL is not post-game, you can obtain it as soon as you have access to Area N. You just can't use it until post-game. There's a difference. The implication I get is that it is canonically there but that Vent/Aile are not "meant" to find it in the storyline.
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except its only called a biometal after you give it to Fleuve. before that, its just a "mysterious rock" that happens to look like an Omega Livemetal.
whatever though. Im not bout to argue about it.
It could be canon, it could not be. Either way, it has no impact on the story...
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It could be canon, it could not be. Either way, it has no impact on the story...
Flammole begs to differ.
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what I mean is, either way it is irrelevant to the story outside of Flammole mentioning it
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The only canon thing about Model O is that it exists. Getting is is purely optional and actually not plot relevant.
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except its only called a biometal after you give it to Fleuve. before that, its just a "mysterious rock" that happens to look like an Omega Livemetal.
By what logic is Biometal not considered Biometal until someone calls it such?
Not all Biometal is immediately recognizable. Model A doesn't recognize the Model W cores.
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Mmm. True enough. Though given that Vent and Aile have seen 7 biometals by then, and a W core, you'd think they would recognize the basic shape of something that resembles the Ciel Biometal design.
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Except Model O doesn't talk. So, until identified, all it is to them is a mysterious floating stone statue of sorts.
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Makes sense I guess. I wonder if they will ever revisit Model O in any potential sequel(s)?
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They'd have to retcon him out of ZX for it to make sense, I think.
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Why? He could just as easily been stolen out of the lab with the rest, but not given a biomatch yet.
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MODEL O ACTUALLY BECAME THE REAVERBOTS LATER.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
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GIRO IS THE MASTER.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
EVEN THOUGH HE'S [spoiler]DEAD[/spoiler].
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THE MASTER IS DEAD TOO
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Yeah, but Giro died before he started wearing blue.
OR SO YOU THINK!
Why? He could just as easily been stolen out of the lab with the rest, but not given a biomatch yet.
Or somebody other than Vent/Aile could fish him out of Area N.
Those equipped with Sprites Inc (http://sprites-inc.co.uk/files/ZX/ZxA/Unused/). know that there was in fact tile data for a Model O life bar, along with some leftover ZX junk.
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Which is odd, because they scrapped the outright use of Model O by itself by Vent/Aile.
Are Vent/Aile unable to perform single Biometal transformations anymore or something? Or was "Model O"'s moveset so similar to Zx's that they made it Ox just to "qualify" Model Ox's "weakness" and allow for future story hijinx all in one fell swoop?
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They were never shown to use any biometal alone except for X.
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They are fully able to. They do not because, canonically speaking, it is pointless. Double Rock On draws out more power.
Which is odd, because they scrapped the outright use of Model O by itself by Vent/Aile.
How is the lack of Model O by Vent/Aile any different from the lack of Models H, L, F, and P by Vent/Aile? Again, singular Rock Ons are pointless story-wise; Double Rock On is superior. Generally it functions as enhancing the secondary metal; ZX being the exception as its abilities are a more direct merger of X and Z.
they made it Ox just to "qualify" Model Ox's "weakness"
The idea that Double Rock On weakens the secondary model is complete fanon and a direct contradiction to Prometheus's words after he first fought Vent as Model ZX.
And he should know. He fought both Model Z and Model X alone.
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This is true.
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I also think the storyline was confusing from ZX, and also the transition to ZX Advent.
At first, after experiencing (but most likely not completely comprehending) the story, I thought that Ciel made Model XZHFLP, whilst I thought that (at first) it was Dr. Viel who made Model V. Then, after playing ZX Advent, I learned that Albert created(?) Model V.
And I need some clearing up. While Aile/Vent were away, they left Models HFLP in a lab, and someone stole 'em? Also, why was Aile/Vent compatible with HFLP?
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Presumably models HFLP were with scientist guy who wanted to study them, I forget his name, when they got stolen. They could do well enough without them for a while, I guess, since ZX is the ultimate and all that. Don't think anything more detailed than "they were stolen" was given, but Zan will have to correct me on that.
They weren't compatible with any model other than X, but X lets them double merge with any other biometal, so they can use their powers anyway.
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GOD Damn. What a Necropost, Zeta.
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At first, after experiencing (but most likely not completely comprehending) the story, I thought that Ciel made Model XZHFLP, whilst I thought that (at first) it was Dr. Viel who made Model V. Then, after playing ZX Advent, I learned that Albert created(?) Model V.
Perfectly understandable. Albert as a character was not introduced before ZX Advent, nor were Model W's origins completely explained. It was only stated that it was derived from the remnants of Ragnarok, but how it got to be something capable of transforming others with the R.O.C.K. system was never explored, nor were the origins of Pandora and Prometheus, the self-proclaimed voices of Model W.
And I need some clearing up. While Aile/Vent were away, they left Models HFLP in a lab, and someone stole 'em?
Yes. And the Guardian science guy's name is Fleuve.
Also, why was Aile/Vent compatible with HFLP?
They weren't compatible with any model other than X, but X lets them double merge with any other biometal, so they can use their powers anyway.
False.
Vent and Aile are among Albert's Chosen Ones, and for the last time, any of Ciel's Biometals are compatible with any Chosen One. Any notions to the contrary are complete fanon, and with the possible exception of Model A (being Albert's backup), there is no conceivable reason that such a restriction should exist at all.
Ciel's Biometals (Models X, Z, H, L, F, and P) are based off of her research on Model W. There can be no further restriction within Ciel's usage of the R.O.C.K. System beyond Model W's unless Ciel herself added it, and she has neither the reason nor the ability to do so. If she could modify R.O.C.K. System compatibility, she would never have limited her Biometals to those who share compatibility with Model W in the first place. Given that she is stuck within the same "pool" as Model W, limiting her Biometals any further would only serve to handicap them against the very threat they were designed to counter, and for what benefit? None. The whole idea is a fan-based assumption, and a grossly illogical one at that.
"...the ones with the potential to use Model X and Z, are the same ones with the potential to unleash Model W. As a chosen one, you have the power to save or destroy the world."
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The way I see it, is that some people may more closely match their biometal than others, as shown my ZXA's Big 4 being similar to the small 4 they are using. (and by similar, I mean twisted interpretations of.) or, how Giro just so happens to look like Zero. Bt the fact remains that any chosen one can use any Biometal.
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Perfectly understandable. Albert as a character was not introduced before ZX Advent, nor were Model W's origins completely explained. It was only stated that it was derived from the remnants of Ragnarok, but how it got to be something capable of transforming others with the R.O.C.K. system was never explored, nor were the origins of Pandora and Prometheus, the self-proclaimed voices of Model W.
Albeit perfect understandable. This is a case of people adding a clear cut identities to the vague "that man" references when there clearly wasn't half the time. In retrospect, ZX's vague reference are perfectly understandable when thinking with Albert in mind, making the notion of Weil creating Model W a rather silly thing; Weil IS Model W. The only thing he could have possibly made were the Model W fragments, which are derivative of himself.
However, for those that still cling to such a notion; even with Albert in the equation, it is actually true still; Ashe did implicate Model W as corrupting Albert. Thus everything can easily be brought full circle by saying that Weil facilitated his transformation to Model W by manipulating Albert. Which is something I even entertained when the Sage Trinity were first shown; if Weil wanted to make more Model W's, he'd have to use a puppet to that end, Albert with his scientific knowledge immediately stuck out as quite the candidate.
as shown my ZXA's Big 4 being similar to the small 4 they are using.
You know, initially the fanbase used the term "small 4" to describe Aeolus and the others, not their Biometals. Funny how you like totally turned that upside down.
And any correlation between Chosen One and Biometal is complete nonsense in-universe; they were all supposed to be Model W Mega Men. It could only make sense if Albert somehow could anticipate the match ups of new Chosen Ones with Ciel's biometals, and even then he sorely messed up with Vent and Aile both having Model X. Not to mention that it begs the question of what happened to the Model W Mega Men other than Serpent.
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You could also short-answer that with "fanservice".
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You know, initially the fanbase used the term "small 4" to describe Aeolus and the others, not their Biometals. Funny how you like totally turned that upside down.
Ive honestly never had any idea as to which referred to which. I assumed Small 4 was for the 4 biometals because, well... They are small. '>.>