RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Zero => Topic started by: Zan on September 05, 2009, 06:26:37 PM
-
Disclaimer: really long post, please bear with me.
As we all know, the writing process of the MegaMan Zero series was a process of constant alterations, through retcon or otherwise, having to deal with it's own contuinity and that of the X-series all at the same time. For some time now, I've been analyzing the first game in the ZERO series to figure out the source of the current convoluted canon and why things are as they are now. All in all, this just me trying to collect my thoughts on the progression of the plot from ZERO to ZERO2 in the hope of giving some nice insight on it.
---
Three key moments in developement changed the face of the series forever.
-The release of MegaMan X6 by another team.
-The choice of Copy-X as the final boss a month before release.
-The writing of the sequel that was never intended.
Most of the time, the release of X6 (and subsequently X7 and beyond) is blamed for the convoluted state of the current ZERO series. Whilst certainly true, Zero went from dead to being sealed, I've started to see that most of the issues that exist today are caused by IntiCreates never having intended a sequel during the writing of ZERO and making a few hasty choices in regards to writing in Copy-X a month before release, instead of the release of X6. In doing so, a lot of plot elements are turned upside down and Inti had to 'make a few complicated explanations real fast.' There are quite a few elements that will later lead to contradictions.
Anyway, supposing familairity with the timeline as it is as of the release of MMZOCW, this is the timeline from a solely ZERO1/RTRZ perspective, I've bolded RTRZ's contribution (you can skip this quote if it gets too long:
ZERO1/RTRZ timeline:
-The fall of the giant colony "Eurasia" during the Maverick Wars (events of MegaManX5), this was the single disaster that caused the greatest degree of damage. A punishment that drove an ugly hole into mother earth, causing catastrophic damage to the troposphere, and people could not reap the benefits of the "blessings of the sea" for a long time.
>
-X and Zero save the world together. (100 years before ZERO1, Zero's weapon is one of the legendary ten shining arms.)
>
-Zero speaks with a scientist to have something removed from his systems, the scientist is unsure if it is even possible, but if all goes well, it will take 102 years. Zero goes to sleep and leaves future incidents in X's care. (100 years before ZERO1, Zero ending of RockmanX6.)
>
-Andrew was a sailor and meets a beautiful young human lady and is touched by her singing.
>
-Andrew spends time with her and they fall in love, eventually begin to live together.
>
-The lone hero X ends the Maverick Wars after 100 years of fighting without Zero but has afterward mysteriously become a cyber elf. Ciel creates Copy-X and together they create Neo Arcadia at the center of rebirth. The long, drawn out Maverick Wars resulted in mankind's very existence being threatened, due to the immeasurably damaged state of the earth's environment, especially the damage caused by the Eurasia space colony. Aiming to rebuild the world of man, Neo Arcadia established two primary objectives. One, the eradication of the Iregulars who had been the cause of the wars; and two, to revive the earth's environment for expanding the region of human habitation. Therefore, from both the sea and the air a large-scale tropospheric control operation for the rejuvenation of the environment was conducted. The, Four Guardians, Big4 of X-Bioroid (Harpuia, Leviathan, Fafnir, Phantom), are created for this purpose. Operating a giant weather control mechaniloid, Harpuia brought about a blessing wind of hope to the people. From the main shaft of Neo Arcadia, Leviathan, who was created in order to bring back the favor of the goddess of the sea, used her abilities to do her part for the operation. Phantom and the Zan'ei unit act as "X"'s personal safeguard and defenders, Fafnir's current activities are unspecified.
-Andrew's life partner grows old and begins to resent her looks compared to Andrew. Ciel changes Andrew into and old man to make her happy. She later passes away.
>
-The government starts fearing Reploids will become irregular, and for unjust reasons that became more and more commonplace, the Reploids are punished by disposal one after another. Ciel participated in the exploitation of the Reploids because of the government, but could not shoot those to be punished and tried to cover the stigma of Irregularity.
>
-Ciel begins to live with the Reploids who have been targeted for destruction (the Resistance) and have escaped to the half-collapsed ruins of an old city, where the small ammount of energy still remaining there has kept them alive. Because of this situation Ciel, who is now the leader of the Resistance, wants to develop a subsitute energy, and because of her superior talent as a scientist, there are no alternate ideas concerning a new energy source for everyday life. One of the Reploids with the Resistance is a girl Ciel named Alouette who never felt kindness from others when she lived Neo Arcadia. Everything changed when she met Ciel, she even began to think of the importance of their existance.
>
-To use military force to combat Mavericks and Resistance members who escaped Neo Arcadia to the wastelands, Neo Arcadia developed the "Scorched Earth Operation" in which extermination attacks were performed. A roller strategy involved carpet bombing, and deployment of an enormous ground force for total supremacy. These severe tactics strike terror into all Irregulars who witness it. If the fighting ahead isn't ceased immediately, they will never know another peaceful night's sleep. At the forefront of the Scorched Earth Operations, a Fafnir's form can always be made out. Likewise, iIn Neo Arcadia, those who can escape under suspicion of Iregularity are few, and those who can survive long are even fewer, because many who try to hide are quickly discovered and dealt with by the oppressive Zan'ei unit which has become and anti-Iregular, anti-Resistance intelligence unit. The other Units and Guardians also focus their attention on Mavericks and the Resistance.
>
-The demonic hand of the government finally approaches even those Resistance Reploids who have lived quiet lives. They're cornered. At this rate, they will all die. Ciel remembers the name of the Legendary Reploid "Zero", who even now sleeps in a certain place.. If the legends is true, maybe he can save them. She therefore seeks out to find Zero.
>
-Harpuia battles the Resistance at the remains of the laboratory called the "historic ruins." He was "hunting" the Resistance's leader, the young human girl Ciel whose capture should have proven to end the fighting. Standing in his way, was a single red repliroid; Zero. Starting the events of MegaManZERO. (100 years after Zero and X saved the world, 100 years after Zero's seal, Andrew's life partner has long since passed away, Ciel age 14)
With the release of ZERO2 and ZERO3. A lot of the above points either become invalidated or are moved around. Most notably:
-Neo Arcadia's founding. (Current event, ZERO1 - 100 years ago, ZERO2+)
-The Big4's creation. (Current event, ZERO1 - 100 years ago, ZERO2+)
-Zero's being sealed twice. (Introduction of Elf Wars inbetween two 100 year gaps instead of a single 100 year gap from X6 to ZERO.)
The biggest reason I find for this is: Dark Elf.
When Dark Elf is introduced into the plot, IntiCreates found themselves with a small issue; the Maverick Wars ended quite recently, likewise, Neo Arcadia is made quite recently as well. But, Dark Elf is a rather mysterious force, like mythological. As such, Dark Elf is said to be 100 years old. And then, with the antagonistic forces of Omega and Weil applied, as well X's mysterious dissappearence; Neo Arcadia suddenly has a centennial history under its ruler X.
The above choice of a centennial history changes the timeline completely; Neo Arcadia and the Big4's time of creation gets increasingly confusing, Ciel gets some quick explanation on how she made Neo Arcadia whilst it already existed, X's sealing of Dark Elf is somewhere in timeline limbo and Zero suddenly has to undergo two sealings.
Going by the above premise, this is why we got two sealing events instead of one, a direct result of Inti's desire for super contuinity with X's final words during the first game:
With a founding of 100 years ago, Zero could be present to end the war. However, the story is clear; X is a lone hero that ended the war and fought for 100 years without Zero. Despite this, X and Zero saved the world together, 100 years ago? How can X fight for 100 years when there is no war after Neo Arcadia's founding? How can X be a lone hero when Zero wasn't sealed yet? How can X and Zero save the world together when X is a lone hero that ended the war, and fought a century without Zero?
This direct contradiction is the cause for nearly every change revolving around Zero and Omega's backstory. There was only one conclusion to fix the above; Elf Wars and two sealings.
From X6's ending to Elf Wars, 100 years. From Elf Wars another 100 years to ZERO, with Omega and Zero's innate relation right in the middle of all that. All of this is the strange outcome of one change having long lasting effects on everything else.
In a similar case, Mother Elf's very existance as the Sigma Antibody Program demands that Mavericks can't exist in the ZERO timeframe, yet Neo Arcadia fearfully deems all Reploids as a Maverick. In order to explain this ungrounded fear, Inti took the simple concept of the Resistance's substitute energy and turned it into the large scale energy crisis which led to the unjust retirement of Reploids under a bullshit explanation of Maverick behaviour.
I hope the above gives some nice insight in why the series turned out as it did. There's a lot more material to cover, such as how some changes affected the Big4 and other details such as the Shining Arms, but this had gotten way too long. By primary point is how X6 and the other X-games are not really to blame for the convoluted state of affairs; they do add to it, but are not the primary cause. I feel that what happened with the story was mostly unavoidable and a result of too many grandiose ideas limited by a game by game release basis.
If anybody has any alternate hypothesis, feel free to share.
-
Nice to see you flesh out the details, but I don't think the point itself of Dark Elf being primarily responsible for the mix-ups is up for much debate, considering the fact that IntiCreates stated such themselves in MMZOCW.
Is there a specific place in the Mega Man series timeline for this game?
Aizu: We certainly took the flow of [the] Mega Man, X, and Zero [series] into consideration. The fact that the first Zero game starts with him coming out of stasis is a result of that deliberation. From there, we expanded the Mega Man universe itself in an attempt to explain what Dark Elf truly is.
-
With a founding of 100 years ago, Zero could be present to end the war. However, the story is clear; X is a lone hero that ended the war and fought for 100 years without Zero. Despite this, X and Zero saved the world together, 100 years ago? How can X fight for 100 years when there is no war after Neo Arcadia's founding? How can X be a lone hero when Zero wasn't sealed yet? How can X and Zero save the world together when X is a lone hero that ended the war, and fought a century without Zero?
The way I see it, the confusion of the statements and dates is due to Neo Arcadia's coverups of history. Zero, who's the very source of Irregularity, fought together with what Neo Arcadia conceives as the shining light of hope, X. That doesn't really sound all that great now, does it? Likewise, they deleted Vile's involvement with Neo Arcadia from the history tracks in order to conceal the fact that the government was partially backing up Vile's doings up to the point when he revealed his true colors and wanted to eradicate everybody on the planet he did not deem worthy in order to fulfill his twisted ideology.
To me, it's like this:
X fought alone during most of the Elf War (since Zero had been sealed away and was being studied by what was to become Neo Arcadia) and therefore most of the history records say that it was him who was the defining factor that contributed to the end of the fighting; that he was the one who brought down Vile. Zero appeared pretty much just during the final stages of the Elf War in a copy body, backing up X whilst the Big4 (if they were already around at this point) were busy with crowd control as Repliroids all over the planet tore each other to shreds (by the time of Z1, they had heard of Zero, but never met him face to face. They also seem to be familiar with Omega, as they knew who they were dealing with onboard the crashed Forbidden Ark, but did not seem to have encountered him before either. Same with Vile, they [Harpuia] only knew his name and what he had been infamous for).
Zero turned the tide of the battle by "bossing around" the Darkelf to have her direct all Irregular forces on Vile himself, therefore forcing him to send out his trump card prematurely and without his near all powerful abilities he would have gotten with the Darkelf. X and Zero defeat Omega. However, Zero decides that him being around is too dangerous for the world as history has proven several times over that the bad guys are really interested in the destructive and corruptive potential he possesses and goes off to sleep again, this time with the intention of leaving the world in X' hands, period.
For the next century, X and the Big4 deal with the problems of the post-Elf War world, building Neo Arcadia, trying to rejuvanate the planet and dealing with Irregular criminality, up to the point where X comes to the conclusion that fighting doesn't mean anything to him anymore because no matter how hard he struggles, history will eventually repeat all over. He vanishes to contain the Darkelf with his body's power and somehow his soul transcents into becoming a data lifeform.
-
Nice to see you flesh out the details, but I don't think the point itself of Dark Elf being primarily responsible for the mix-ups is up for much debate, considering the fact that IntiCreates stated such themselves in MMZOCW.
Yeah, the quote in question is one of the things that make me certain of my conclusion. But I also feel there's a certain attitude of "Dark Elf was already there" in Aizu's words. Certainly from the very premise of the ZERO series, Cyber Elves were always a big factor as they have quite the magnificent yet mysterious power. The plan even involved 'Cyber Elves' long before there was even a vision of how they could look; all of that is Nakayama's contribution down the road.
Since the Dark Elf is the source of most changes to the timeline, and the Dark Elf used to be Mother Elf, the origin of Cyber Elves, I do wonder, how much of this premise existed during the creation of ZERO. MMZOCW perhaps gives us some hints in the different details of Mother Elf and Dark Elf that existed even before the 'Three Keys'. We also have some strong hints in Zero's X6 ending, which we can safely say did indeed revolve around Sigma Virus study even at that early point in development (the logos on the lab's wall prove as much).
The way I see it, the confusion of the statements and dates is due to Neo Arcadia's coverups of history.
I've got to hand it to Inti, in a stroke of genius they incorperated their own troubled writing process into the plot as this massive historical cover up that sets right all inconsistencies in one fell swoop. This I consider one of the key strenghts of the plotline when you take into account Vile's Incident as its conclusion.
You're certainly right in saying the cover up plays a large role in current time interpretation of events, but I don't think Inti was selectively choosing which words were cover up and which were not. I feel that mostly, they wanted to make every statement factual, unless otherwise impossible. For instance, Ciel and Copy-X having made Neo Arcadia is dismissed as metaphoric speaking simply because we know it's not true. (Ciel 'created' Neo Arcadia in that she's responsible for the current state of affairs, same for Copy-X.) Whereas X's and Ciel's words about the war of 100 years ago are considered entirely factual. Likewise, the manual being out-of-character narration can't be proven incorrect either. Thus the aforementioned contradiction is only avoided by following it in an overly literal fashion; two seals and Elf Wars.
he Big4 (if they were already around at this point)
Once they started going with Neo Arcadia's centennial history, Inti seems to have written itself into a corner by saying in RTRZ that they were around since the beginning of Neo Arcadia; the operation to restore Earth being one of Neo Arcadia's founding principles. As such, they knew the real X according to ZERO2 canon whereas this was not the case in ZERO1 canon. With ZERO2 and beyond they occasionally drop hints on this relation between Big4, copy and original, in order to rectify this change.
It seems to me that since they already pushed back their time of creation that far, and went with Neo Arcadia's fairly contradictory time of founding, they likewise applies this to the Big4. As Neo Arcadia was somehow around during Elf Wars, yet founded after the Elf Wars, the Big4 who are linked to the founding of Neo Arcadia get the same treatment; thus they suddenly have an excuse to fill in their list of Shining Arms. I feel like this is one area where the aforementioned historical cover up is desperately trying to hide the real truth, possibly because Inti has ideas for Elf Wars that might or might not involve the Big4 due to their popularity. I also see them in the setting you propose, but I also feel it requires some careful consideration on the writer's part to avoid contradicting their attitudes in the games.
-
Well Telos also indicates they recognize original X, when Phantom and X go to Levithan and Fefnir.
one thing that I sort of wonder though, is how Zero utilized Dark Elf exactly. I mean, in Z3, we are shown that she recognizes him, but all she ever says is "Zeeeeerooooooooo....." so we dont know quite what her "opinion" on him is. How she sees him.
I mean, I can imagine her having some sort of allegiance towards Zero even in her cursed state,
and I can imagine Zero outright absorbing her like Omega does.
-
Now there's a point where we could use more info. And of course, always fun to brainstorm about the gaps.
Personally, I see Zero and Omega as corresponding to the Mother/Dark Elf personnas. Zero being linked to Mother Elf and Omega to Dark Elf, as such, Zero poses a threat to Dark Elf's curse. Omega doesn't consider it odd for Dark Elf to refer to him as "Zero", either, so perhaps Weil's curse was meant to work with the "exploit" of an alternate Zero to cement itself. It is interesting to note that, while the Dark Elf is in Zero's presence (without taking shelter in another's body), she always either flees or her curse weakens. In Inarabitta's stage she demands that he stops his pursuit, as well.
History records X using the "Dark Elf," but whether that actually means post-curse or if it's due to some historical inaccuracy is up for debate; further muddling this is the fact that the Elf Wars is by some accounts considered the tail-end of the Maverick Wars and by others considered its own distinct event. Zero "pushed Mama around" by Baby Elf account, so he perhaps used her as well. If he did, it'd have had to be post-curse for the Baby Elves to know of it. Perhaps it was through Zero that they were able to use her for a positive ends in spite of the curse, kind of like what happened after the battle with Elpizo.
-
Well Telos also indicates they recognize original X, when Phantom and X go to Levithan and Fefnir.
I feel that the Four Guardians have always consider Copy-X as a ressurection of the original X who put his previous body to rest to seal Dark Elf. From the start to finish, they see him as only one X, the person they will always be loyal toward.
History records X using the "Dark Elf," but whether that actually means post-curse or if it's due to some historical inaccuracy is up for debate;
The Dark Elf is a special type of Cyber-elf created to bring the Maverick Wars to end... X used it and the wars quickly ended... After that, it was stolen by someone, and then the Dark Elf brought about the Elf Wars.
ZERO3 says roughly the same thing, until it is revealed that Dark Elf was once Mother Elf. So, it's not so much that X used "Dark Elf", just that they didn't know her other name. As you can see, it clearly says that after she was used by X, she was stolen and cursed. Therefore, X actually used -Mother Elf- to end the Maverick Wars, afterward the Elf Wars happen.
This is different from Zero´s use of her, who we know only appeared in Elf Wars. The "fake bad Reploid's bossing around" of Dark Elf happened in that timeframe. Which is also why Dark Elf knows his name.
further muddling this is the fact that the Elf Wars is by some accounts considered the tail-end of the Maverick Wars and by others considered its own distinct event.
This one´s definitely an issue. Especially when such matters as the Shining Arms, Neo Arcadia´s founding and the Four Guardian´s creation are involved. Originally in ZERO2, X created Neo Arcadia after the Maverick Wars, but as of MMZOCW, this happened after the Elf Wars. Ofcourse, since the latter is after the former, both entries do not contradict.
In regards to Neo Arcadia's creation and Elf Wars, the forests of Anatre, Dysis, Notus and one other, which surround Neo Arcadia east, west, south and north respective seem to be one of the most notable examples of the historical cover up (aside from the sunken library). The ruins are the secret of the Maverick Wars, are part of a lost civilization, forbidden places that were relics build during the old great war time, yet in truth hold many important truths about the Elf Wars. In these place, originally Repliroid research was carried out from a very natural point of view. This places them on similar levels of importance as the forgotten laboratory (historical ruins), the laboratory hidden in a forest in which Zero was sealed and research was likewise carried out.
I feel that those facilities are innately related to Project Elpis, which in turn relates to Neo Arcadia's founding principles. Project Elpis is a step toward Neo Arcadia's creation, to the point that many of the things that were created to be part of Neo Arcadia's founding, precede it in order to bring the utopia into existance.
This applies to the Big4 as well. There is a possibility they were created before Neo Arcadia's official founding to carry out its founding principles, but were unable to carry out their duties until Neo Arcadia's founding was completed with the war finally having ended. As such, before taking their place as Four Guardians and working toward their creation purpose of earth recovery, they were forced to become Hunters that worked toward the creation of their utopia.
As Harpuia says: "I am a warrior born to protect humans." Despite their weapons never being built for combat, they are still Shining Arms, the legendary weapons of the top hunters.
The uncertain overlap of Maverick Wars and Elf Wars connect itself to the root of the cover up; Neo Arcadia's founding principles are nothing by a fake, as it is built upon the many corpses of others, a history steeped in madness they themselves created by trusting that man, Dr. Weil. Therefore, Neo Arcadia attempts to cast away it's own guilt by hiding history and covering up the exact time of its founding.
Harpuia, showing his age and wisdom on the matter sums it all up nicely:
The release of the Dark Elf once resonated with Omega, the Devil Repliroid who plunged the world into terror. When the apparition calling himself Doctor Vile appeared in front of me, I knew that the utopia Neo Arcadia was no more than an illusion created at the end of the bloody battle. But if the friends I spent my life with, fought with, made promises with, the sworn enemies I fought my hardest against, were all a dream... That couldn't be. Otherwise everything in this world would be an illusion. All the power, all the deceit, were now to reveal a history steeped in madness.
-
With a founding of 100 years ago, Zero could be present to end the war. However, the story is clear; X is a lone hero that ended the war and fought for 100 years without Zero. Despite this, X and Zero saved the world together, 100 years ago? How can X fight for 100 years when there is no war after Neo Arcadia's founding? How can X be a lone hero when Zero wasn't sealed yet? How can X and Zero save the world together when X is a lone hero that ended the war, and fought a century without Zero?
None of my doubts over the initial sealing lasting a full 100 years in the final scheme of things have abated, where RZOCW mentioned only half a century of study, and X's hardened sadness portrayed as relating directly to his concurrent removed state. I don't intend to rehash since nothing really new has been learned about that since the last argument that I'm aware of, I'll just agree for now that the first sealing possibly could have lasted 100 years, and X certainly did face tough battles without Zero during this time.
As of Z1, the Irregular Wars officially closed some 100 years before the setting of the game, according to Z1's Official Guide Book. However, that closing period was not the end of all incidents, fighting, and hardships, which continued seemingly throughout to the more recent time, when Neo Arcadia was finally established and became the paradise of humans at the cost of repliroid rights, and the battle focus turns to Neo Arcadia government vs Resistance political terrorists. Copy X asserts that the current state of humans in Neo Arcadia is better than anything that Original X or Zero had or could accomplish, thanks primarily to his own efforts. If we assume that Ciel creating Neo Arcadia and Copy X were true plot intentions, Neo Arcadia arose within the last decade before the game began, and the Original X had little to do with its foundation but laying the groundwork of battling to ensure the survival of man and repliroid in the meantime. Later Z2-onward revelations re-established X as the city-state's founder and Ciel's language became figurative as she herself a product of Neo Arcadia policy.
Yet before a Copy X was established, and before Ciel was the progenitor of him, a very different scene was possible, where Neo Arcadia could have been fashioned 100 years ago following the war by the one and only X, and the gradual deterioration from ideal stronghold of hope to reploid living hell would have played out over a longer, more gradual period. I think this was the intention, even after, and why it was returned to eventually, that Neo Arcadia was X's baby born of light and hope but was eventually swallowed by darkness and despair, and why they returned to it in the aftermath of the Z1 to Z2 transitions.
The occurrence of hard lonely battles taking their toll on X's purview seems the same regardless of the Copy's introduction, but the change of characters directly affects how X responds to this stimuli. Instead of choosing to rest and work on his resolve, ducking out of sight and leaving the responsibilities of the world to others for a time, it initially would have hardened him to accepting what he believes the lesser of 2 evils and foregoing reploid rights for the sake of human peace. Both decisions are contraversial, but X's choice to remove himself, though sombre, is in its own way more of an action of holding on to hope, whereas the decision to instill martial law upon reploids seems to be resigned acceptance that only through active force can "peace" be maintained, a quite fatalistic and harrowing viewpoint where the expectancy for equality and freedom has died. I'm glad this dark decision was changed, feeling that X desires better than that. Z1 left X's manner of self removal a mystery, but X's speech sounded as if he could and eventually intended to rejoin the world once his mental strength and fortitude was renewed.
Since the Dark Elf is the source of most changes to the timeline, and the Dark Elf used to be Mother Elf, the origin of Cyber Elves, I do wonder, how much of this premise existed during the creation of ZERO.
Concept art notes explained the initial concept of Cyber Elves as Replisouls. Some speculate then that early on, the Cyber Elves were all going to be repliroid ghosts, either from the Irregular Wars, or from Neo Arcadia's harsh policies. Replisouls could be linked to the very "human-like new type" repliroids who made up the Resistance. (Connecting the powers of the old generation of reploids to be used by the new, sounds a lot like X8...) Ciel, as a Soul Summoner, would have the ability to rally these souls and aid Zero through something called Soul Battle, perhaps how he himself would interface with them. She may have even been responsible for summoning Zero's soul back from the void, in the pre-X6 concept realm before Zero was already revived and sealed as a starting point.
RTRZ info mentions that Cyber Elves had some link to past incidents and their appearances aren't currently understood. This is often considered to be the first hinting of the Elf Wars as part of the lost history of Neo Arcadia. Considering that initially they did not plan to have a sequel game, the origins of Cyber Elves would likely remain simply as a miraculous new technology without further exposition. Yet within a month after game release, it would seem the rough concept around a potential Elf Wars and maybe even the Dark Elf existed as well. The known concept art for the Dark Elf is said to be from Zero 2, as opposed to the concept art of the Big 4's Armed Phenomenon forms which we're told are sketches from Zero 1 that went unused until the sequel. So, Dark Elf herself probably was not conceived or considered to be used until sometime after a sequel work was approved, shortly after Z1's release. But some believe that a benevolent Mother Elf type figure as origin of the Cyber Elves would have been used in Cyber X's stead as Zero's magical plot aid. Nothing I know of was ever shown to evidence this, it seems to be more of a fanon answer to the question "If the last boss was actually the real X, then who would the Cyber-X role have been?" But other answers exist to that, possibly Passy or Ciel would have had larger roles, or on a far darker scale, that Cyber-X would have still been the real X, using his powers to communicate. In that case, X would likely have given Zero the saber to destroy Ciel with, but he uses it to destroy the Golem instead. Then X appears again after Zero has proven himself too much of a trouble, and gives Zero the key and issues him a challenge/invitation to attempt to infiltrate Neo Arcadia's toughest security area, thinking that he'll take care of Zero personally this way.
Shining Arms
Sometimes I think it's easier to view this list as Neo Arcadian propaganda, or as an element of the mythology surrounding the founding of the nation. Legendary weapons of power, now wielded by the stalwarts of Neo Arcadia, it's a beautiful and epic idea. The nature of mythology is always embelished, legends get confused and rewritten in the passing of time, and the idea that the generals are using holy relics as weapons gives them an even higher aura of respect and invincibility. Truth can't in this respect stand up to what captures the popular imagination or serves the public good.
On the other hand, there's the idea that they were not originally the Big 4's weapons, but were later imparted to them when battle was required. Whose weapons they were before would be a huge mystery, though perhaps the easiest explanation might be that they were all X's weapons. Almost like X6, X starts with X-Buster and Z-Saber, and then gains 8 more special weapons as per status quo, handhelds this time. It's the right number, although X is rarely portrayed as using anything but his own X-Buster.
On the other other hand, the weapons could have been made back then but never utilized until the Big 4 came along. Rather simple, but anti-climatic. Weapons of war that were made for Top Class Irregular Hunters, maybe not any one in particular but with the idea that this advanced weaponry could help end the wars. As a weird twist, Vile was the one working on weapons, it would be very ironic if not entirely unlikely if he had wound up being the one who revamped the Z-Saber and built the Big 4's weaponry... nah, he would have thrown that in their faces long ago. But it reminds me, the X-Buster was technically created long before Irregular Hunters existed, ergo the definition of who and what they were developed for seems a bit loose. It might have been improved in some way, as the Z-Saber was, to make that count.
Then there's the suggestion they were around and active in the late Irregular Wars, possible, although never mentioned as being so in any info material other than the Ten Shining Arms. I have the impression they were products of after the Elf Wars, after Neo Arcadia's official foundation, after Omega is bound and Vile is banished and Zero fast asleep.
Most of the time, the release of X6 (and subsequently X7 and beyond) is blamed for the convoluted state of the current ZERO series.
Perhaps we can say they both influenced and convoluted each other. X6 influenced the Zero series a great deal, but itself was a retcon of X5 as the series ender. What we might have received if X6 had not come about we'll never know, but the differences could well have been staggering.
Eurasia was given a lot of standing in Z1's materials, but the X series greatly pushed the time back and is even said to reclaim the area directly around the colony's impact site, so as to wonder whether Eurasia could still be a strong influence in global calamity. The Elf Wars gives the X series the freedom to rebuild more of the planet up again from the devastating impact of the Eurasia incident, since another globally destructive conflict will ensure that the post-apocalyptic state in Z1 comes to pass. Even so, Command Mission's creation pushes the Z series changeover much farther back than was seemingly ever intended. And then Z4 references Eurasia's crash as well, saying there are still remains of it intact and that the nature is a result of a Eurasia environmental device that continued to function, even after all that time. Did the cleanup miss an entire section, or perhaps the left part as a reminder, or saw the enviro. unit functioning and left it going in hope of return? Adds up a little strange. Axl remains a mystery, as does whomever X was fighting when he used the Mother Elf if Sigma was departed in X8. Mysteries are not necessarily plot holes, but the overuse of them without any resolution adds to the feeling of convolution a great deal.
Edit: Posted in the wrong thread, somehow. Fixed now.
-
I could make a house out of these walls! :O
-
None of my doubts over the initial sealing lasting a full 100 years in the final scheme of things have abated, where RZOCW mentioned only half a century of study, and X's hardened sadness portrayed as relating directly to his concurrent removed state. I don't intend to rehash since nothing really new has been learned about that since the last argument that I'm aware of, I'll just agree for now that the first sealing possibly could have lasted 100 years, and X certainly did face tough battles without Zero during this time.
If there was any more solid reason why I consider X's words to be about the initial sealing (or at least a combination of both the seals as MMZOCW's 50 year study seems to favor), it is that X mentions that "Zero left the world to him".
In the comparison between X6 and TELOS, X6 is about finding a cure and leaving the world to a superior hunter, whereas TELOS is much more about removing Zero from the world because he wants to trust the humans X trusts. We must remember that Z1 was written from X6. It therefore strikes me as odd that TELOS did not reproduce this part of the scenario in order to maintain the uncertain status quo between the seals and X's words.
As of Z1, the Irregular Wars officially closed some 100 years before the setting of the game, according to Z1's Official Guide Book.
Are we certain that doesn't just mean, 100 years ago X5 and beyond happened when Sigma was defeated once and for all, thus ending the war? (Before the New Generation prolongs it indefinitely.)
Anyway, I think anything after Z1, the "concepts" from RTRZ perhaps excluded, can be seen as the beginning of the retcons. By Inti's own accord, at that time is when they started explaining what the "Dark Elf truly is".
After all, that Neo Arcadia was made 100 years ago in the Z1 setting directly contradicts the statement that Neo Arcadia was made by Ciel/Copy-X at the center of rebirth following the end of the long lasting Irregular Wars that were thought to be never ending.
However, there are a few key holes to be found in that explanation... It is as you say.
The above is nothing more than the result of their month before release change to Copy-X resulting in "complicated explanations real fast". It's possible that their initial intend was the war having ended a century ago, with the last minute change establishing a different canon until the retcons patch up the matter back to their initial concept state.
However, that closing period was not the end of all incidents, fighting, and hardships, which continued seemingly throughout to the more recent time, when Neo Arcadia was finally established and became the paradise of humans at the cost of repliroid rights, and the battle focus turns to Neo Arcadia government vs Resistance political terrorists.
I think in X's 100 years of fighting, we have to remember the key difference between Z1 and Z2+ canon. That being Mother Elf. In the initial setting for Mother Elf, the Virus has not been taken out by a miracle cure, rather, Irregulars were simply controlled by her. Therefore, it's much more likely for Irregulars to return in the initial setting than in the final. Back then, it just seemed more likely for X to have fought even after the official war had ended by Sigma's death. Nowadays, it's very unlikely for a battle that matches the scale of X's words to happen after the Elf Wars.
That is, if Mother Elf even existed in the original setting... The X5 to X6 transition makes it fairly questionable.. Though, from the moment they switched from Zero's X5 death to X6's seal and cure concept, I think some form of Mother Elf was thought up.
So, yeah, maybe this all does end up with a combination of th two seals. The first to account for "countless numbers" and "leaving the world to X". The second to account for "100 years."
Sometimes I think it's easier to view this list as Neo Arcadian propaganda, or as an element of the mythology surrounding the founding of the nation. Legendary weapons of power, now wielded by the stalwarts of Neo Arcadia, it's a beautiful and epic idea. The nature of mythology is always embelished, legends get confused and rewritten in the passing of time, and the idea that the generals are using holy relics as weapons gives them an even higher aura of respect and invincibility. Truth can't in this respect stand up to what captures the popular imagination or serves the public good.
This is a very interesting idea. It certainly writes of all the inconsistencies of their presence easily enough. However, in a way we still have to deal with Neo Arcadia's odd time of creation, which lies at the root of the Big4 purpose Shining Arms paradox.
On the other hand, there's the idea that they were not originally the Big 4's weapons, but were later imparted to them when battle was required. Whose weapons they were before would be a huge mystery, though perhaps the easiest explanation might be that they were all X's weapons.
I think we can rule out this theory. There's the explicit mention that their weapons were not made for combat. And we know Leviathan and Harpuia use their attacks, and thus their weapons to do their jobs to recover the troposhere and seas.
I have the impression they were products of after the Elf Wars, after Neo Arcadia's official foundation, after Omega is bound and Vile is banished and Zero fast asleep.
This certainly avoids the matter of them accidentally running into Zero during the Elf Wars conflict, and thus more easily explains why someone like Phantom does not know of his copy body. Likewise, they too are very much in the dark on Omega and related matters.
However, when thinking about the story of Elf Wars, I feel that the Big4 have to be created before the Elf Wars so that these fan favorites can play their part. In order to keep with canon however, we need to maintain X as the lone hero, thus they weren't created until after the Irregular Wars, which makes the Shining Arms indeed a product of Neo Arcadia's lies. (Unless you count the Elf Wars as part of the Irregular Wars.)
To explain a creation of the Big4 after the Irregular Wars but before the Elf Wars, we need to remember that short period of peace between them in which Neo Arcadia is under construction but not officially founded. This time period in which Neo Arcadia is in "production" is required to explain such matters as the Neo Arcadian logos on Dr. Vile and his lab. Just as much as it's required to explain how Omega and Vile were "exiled from Neo Arcadia".
-
If there was any more solid reason why I consider X's words to be about the initial sealing (or at least a combination of both the seals as MMZOCW's 50 year study seems to favor), it is that X mentions that "Zero left the world to him".
In the comparison between X6 and TELOS, X6 is about finding a cure and leaving the world to a superior hunter, whereas TELOS is much more about removing Zero from the world because he wants to trust the humans X trusts. We must remember that Z1 was written from X6. It therefore strikes me as odd that TELOS did not reproduce this part of the scenario in order to maintain the uncertain status quo between the seals and X's words.
I get your meaning, but in the X6 sealing, X has no part. There's no tearful goodbye, no explanation, no inclusion of X in the scene at all besides in reference. It doesn't seem like the kind of think X would be absent from, which begs the question whether Zero didn't fail to consult him both times. We know X only caught the end word of the news and gets there just in time to say goodbye the second time around. During which, Zero tells X how much he trusts in him and what he believes in, so at least some level bequeathing is acknowledged for sure in this sealing.
In effect though, Zero is entrusting the world to X with either sealing. To X's protection, to X's judgment, for X to lead the world to peace and for Zero himself not to become an interference of that.
I think in X's 100 years of fighting, we have to remember the key difference between Z1 and Z2+ canon. That being Mother Elf. In the initial setting for Mother Elf, the Virus has not been taken out by a miracle cure, rather, Irregulars were simply controlled by her. Therefore, it's much more likely for Irregulars to return in the initial setting than in the final. Back then, it just seemed more likely for X to have fought even after the official war had ended by Sigma's death. Nowadays, it's very unlikely for a battle that matches the scale of X's words to happen after the Elf Wars.
Battles, not one large one but a long stream of sad ones. Sad and difficult doesn't have to mean it was difficult for him to defeat whoever these were, they can be sad because the circumstances for each should have been avoidable, or difficult because the ceaseless destruction of robotic life feels unending and such toll in what should be a time of peace weighs heavily.
There's the explicit mention that their weapons were not made for combat.
Which is pretty odd, isn't it? What non-combative usage do Phantom's shurikens fulfill? To ride them through the air while looking badass...? I guess.
Unless the statement applies primarily to Harpuia's and Leviathan's weapons as tools to interface with the orbiting mechaniloid satelite, and less so the others whose occupations seem to direct them in other ways.
However, when thinking about the story of Elf Wars, I feel that the Big4 have to be created before the Elf Wars so that these fan favorites can play their part.
If the Shining Arms is a myth, there isn't much of a scheduled part to play... The one thing I can think of that might be a sign they were around without simply fan service as the explanation is Cyber X knowing already that the Big 4 can't be controlled by Dark Elf. He might know by some other means, such as perhaps they were designed to be immune, or he realized it after it took 2 Baby Elves' powers combined to control the body of Harpiuia that their normal physiology makes them highly resistant, but it could also be because they were around way back when.
-
I get your meaning, but in the X6 sealing, X has no part. There's no tearful goodbye, no explanation, no inclusion of X in the scene at all besides in reference. It doesn't seem like the kind of think X would be absent from, which begs the question whether Zero didn't fail to consult him both times. We know X only caught the end word of the news and gets there just in time to say goodbye the second time around. During which, Zero tells X how much he trusts in him and what he believes in, so at least some level bequeathing is acknowledged for sure in this sealing.
In effect though, Zero is entrusting the world to X with either sealing. To X's protection, to X's judgment, for X to lead the world to peace and for Zero himself not to become an interference of that.
However, at the time of writing, X's words were surely in reference to X as "the superior hunter" who can take care of things without Zero around.
TELOS on the other hand is not about that, it's about peace having been achieved and Zero being the only aspect that remains to repeat the cycle of bloodshed. Zero was not talking about trusting X to take care of the world for he's already done so. He's solely talking about wanting to trust the humans in regards to his own evil.
Battles, not one large one but a long stream of sad ones. Sad and difficult doesn't have to mean it was difficult for him to defeat whoever these were, they can be sad because the circumstances for each should have been avoidable, or difficult because the ceaseless destruction of robotic life feels unending and such toll in what should be a time of peace weighs heavily.
I wasn't talking about difficulty, I'm talking about quantity and frequency. No matter how you cut it, X's words fit more toward X6 than TELOS. Countless numbers, day after day, that is only true for the Irregular Wars. In the unstable times of Neo Arcadia's beginnings, we are dealing with enemy quantity and frequency relatively insignificant compared to the Irregular Wars. The irregular wars are a large stream of sad incidents, whereas the unstable beginnings of the utopia are more isolated incidents that occur at random.
Which is pretty odd, isn't it? What non-combative usage do Phantom's shurikens fulfill? To ride them through the air while looking badass...? I guess.
Phantom is the one of the Big4 you have to take with a certain grain of salt. They likened it to the original Rockman's theme of all the bosses having a certain job. Phantom being X's personal safeguard, a combat orientated job, he follows the theme but at the same time can be seen as an exception.
But in that regard, I think you're quite right. It's Dark Cross that's listed, which has clearly a practical purpose in terms of mobility. As this can be of vital importance to protect X from a far. You can say this is similar to how Leviathan and Harpuia's use of their weapons to manipulate the ocean currents and weather respectively.
As for Fefnir, his occupation is rather unspecified in all the sources I have at my disposal... I can only assume it's quite similar to how later the "Scorched Earth Operation" was carried out.
If the Shining Arms is a myth, there isn't much of a scheduled part to play...
The thing about the Shining Arms.... Aren't they the weapons used by the top Irregular Hunters from the Irregular Wars? By the time the Elf Wars comes about, the Irregular Wars had been thought as officially ended. If you take the Shining Arms literally, we say their creation and activity as Hunters even precede the time the lone hero X ended the war. But that outright conflicts his status as the lone hero. Therefore, I see just grounds to consider the Shining Arms as mere myths. Elf Wars, however, is after that, and thus a completely different story altogether.
Of course, it's always quite uncertain whether or not Elf Wars is its own distinct event or not. I feel that the times it's considered to be the same as the Irregular Wars, are part of the way history was covered up. The imagined scene of the irregular wars sparked by the Sigma Virus turning to Cyber Elf abuse and X ending that war using Mother Elf is all too convenient for Neo Arcadia. So, maybe the Shining Arms is list is accurate in that the Big4 fought in Elf Wars, but the lie is that the Elf Wars and Irregular Wars are one and the same. Which once more ties back to the contradictory time of Neo Arcadia's founding.
Instead of wondering what in the games warrants their inclusion in Elf Wars, I'm instead going to cover how it's possible, which is also what I alluded to in my previous post.
After the end of the Irregular Wars, the creation of the utopia Neo Arcadia's appears to be the most important matter at hand. The Big4 were created for Neo Arcadia, after all, Leviathan was made to win back the favor of the sea goddess and carried out her operation from the main shaft of Neo Arcadia.
Between Neo Arcadia's founding and the Big4's creation, the former takes considerably more time than the latter. As construction of Neo Arcadia began at the center of rebirth, the Big4 were also created. However, when Elf Wars began, Neo Arcadia's founding was pushed back until that calamity was avoided. That is how the Big4 could become Hunters despite their purpose of creation being different; the Elf Wars was such an unexpected event that their creation purpose was overruled before it had even begun.
In similar vein, if we are to think of the Big4's creation as even earlier, it should be remembered that the creating of Neo Arcadia was a long term project that began during the Irregular Wars. After all, Project Elpis, the project to end the war and the research carried out in the research facilities in the four forests surrounding Neo Arcadia lie at the root of the creation of Neo Arcadia. Likewise, we have to account for Neo Arcadian logos in the distinctly older facility of Vile's lab and even on Vile's very person.
-
However, at the time of writing, X's words were surely in reference to X as "the superior hunter" who can take care of things without Zero around.
And then Inti got the opportunity to write their own sealing scene with X actually present, so perhaps now it's in reference to Zero disappearing from the world indefinitely and bequeathing the future of it to X and the humans he believes in.
it's about peace having been achieved and Zero being the only aspect that remains to repeat the cycle of bloodshed. Zero was not talking about trusting X to take care of the world for he's already done so. He's solely talking about wanting to trust the humans in regards to his own evil.
The Elf Wars leaves the world in anything but a nice tidy package. Omega and Vile, though temporarily neutralized and removed, are far from out of the picture. The Dark Elf remains cursed, its power an ever present danger in the wrong hands, as are those of the baby elves, and only with continued vigilance can they be kept from the path of disaster. Cold sleep facilities harbor untold numbers of dangerous failed experiments. The world is a disaster zone and who knows what may be out there among the wreckage. These are things that Zero at the time of his sealing should already know. He is entrusting X to protect that tenuous peace and accomplish all that lays ahead. The second seal isn't the first time Zero's entertained notions that he's a danger to the peace, nor the first time that he's had faith that X will triumph over adversity even if he's out of the picture. The humans aren't telling him anything new in this, but they are putting a renewed pressure on him to do the "right" (according to them) thing. That X is completely against the whole thing could be a pretty decent contributor to the growing feelings of cold sadness and loneliness that contributed to his own desire to seal himself.
I wasn't talking about difficulty, I'm talking about quantity and frequency. No matter how you cut it, X's words fit more toward X6 than TELOS. Countless numbers, day after day, that is only true for the Irregular Wars. In the unstable times of Neo Arcadia's beginnings, we are dealing with enemy quantity and frequency relatively insignificant compared to the Irregular Wars. The irregular wars are a large stream of sad incidents, whereas the unstable beginnings of the utopia are more isolated incidents that occur at random.
Fighting certainly fits the mood of the Irregular Wars. Still, we don't known enough about the early days of NA to say it doesn't apply to that as well. It was initially the time after the wars had supposedly ended where this fighting occurs, so if they meant to change this to being applicable only to the first sealing when they split it up, why introduce the idea that Zero was there for only half a century of study the first time? The seemingly contradictory notion defeats its usefulness as a plot work around. There's also the strangeness of X essentially rehashing gripes from over a century ago, where if it bothered him so much back then, Zero's return would have been the opportunity to work it out. Back then at least Zero actually remembered, and 100 years of peace is a lot of time away from that violence to heal. But far from showing that sadness, Telos has X appearing as idealistic as ever, showing mercy to dangerous enemies, refusing to accept Zero's sealing as necessary to avoid the cycle of violence, and even after that sad episode still continuing to follow his dream of a man and robot paradise. I could see the fighting being in reference to both, but as far as depression setting in, it makes more sense to me to be after.
We do know that Neo Arcadia was so concerned about continued irregular activity that from its founding onward it has gone to great lengths to develop battle repliroids and weapons with which to defend the humans and the nation. Whether this was an overcompensating act of paranoia or a necessary measure for much of the time is not made entirely clear. Copy X brags that post-war humans have not reached such prosperity in the times before himself, which may be an ego trip, but may also be a clue of a less than ideal past. The humans don't seem to think they can get along without X, resulting in Copy X's creation and the subsequent need to cover up his death. He might be a symbolic crutch for society, but then again perhaps the fear in his absence is not wholly unjustified.
They likened it to the original Rockman's theme of all the bosses having a certain job
They also said that "The Four Guardians were initially created to assist in restoring the land after the war." Strictly speaking, bodyguarding doesn't improve the environment. So when talking about all four together, we can gather it's a generalization. Old Fightin' Fefnir, the only purpose he's ever been given is exactly that, and the Scorched Earth Op was itself designed as an anti-irregular project. Harpy and Levi work together controlling the weather, but neither Phantom nor Fefnir have been said to play such a part. It does apply to the Four Guardians, but not necessarily each of them individually. The theme is true, collectively they heal the planet, they safeguard the innocent, they're not supposed to be ruthless enforcers of a corrupt government preying upon the weak, they're good guys (and a gal) doing what their duty requires of them. Robots made with the best intentions becoming the tools of needless violence, the connection to Rockman 1. Following the passage too exactly would conclude that they never used their arms as weapons before the Resistance was formed, so their participation in the Irregular Wars or Elf Wars as combatants would be right out. On the other hand, if Aizu's focused on discussing the parallel to R1 by hilighting the similarities over the differences rather than intentionally retconning Phantom and Fefnir's previously explained roles, one less contradiction, and a little more wiggle room for everything else.
If we try to preserve that the Shining Arms were used by the Big 4 during the Irregular Wars, it's a somewhat limited setting for what they actually contributed. Not as recognized as X and Zero's heroism overall, the Elf Wars specifically seems to prohibit them interacting with Zero, Vile or Omega, and their resistance to Dark Elf's powers implies them not being a direct part of the Dark Elf controlled group battle strategy that ended the war. Then again that immunity can be useful if you're fighting against the Dark Elf or a Baby Elf controlling enemy, and there's enough room in a global fighting scenario for them to be somewhere even if it's nowhere around the location of the endgame. That their weapons were honored should mean they did do something worth praising. It would also mean that their tenure as pure environmentalists ended quite quickly if not practically before it began, though.
If the Shining Arms is a myth on the other hand they can just as easily not be there. Without more to go on, I'm fine either way.
-
Zero's return would have been the opportunity to work it out. Back then at least Zero actually remembered, and 100 years of peace is a lot of time away from that violence to heal. But far from showing that sadness, Telos has X appearing as idealistic as ever, showing mercy to dangerous enemies, refusing to accept Zero's sealing as necessary to avoid the cycle of violence, and even after that sad episode still continuing to follow his dream of a man and robot paradise. I could see the fighting being in reference to both, but as far as depression setting in, it makes more sense to me to be after.
I think in terms of the depression setting in. We always have some period of peace for him to work thing out. But instead of it healing him I think that only worsened his condition. After a century of fighting, his heart is set on that goal in his same old idealistic fashion. But with peace and the fighting that is starting again, painful memories long ago stored away resurface and his own tiredness is brought to like as he feels himself forced to take up arms once again.
At the time of Elf Wars, he had no opportunity to let his heart feel accustomed to peace, the peace was short lasted and the Irregular Wars returned full force as if it never ended. Furthermore, the events surrounding that war revolve around Zero and Zero himself returned during that war; X's doubts are thrown aside by the bond with his friend; fighting for him and fighting by his side.
At that time, X had no time to hesitate, no time to contemplate, he just did what needed to be done. But now the situation has changed in that X himself is incapacitated, sealing away the evil that nearly destroyed the world within his very body. He watches the changing of the world and sees that all their fighting was once again for naught. He sees Zero awakening and pick up the fight; he who sealed himself away to avoid further bloodshed is awakened in the midst of the repeating cycle of history.
Given that situation, even with his last endless battle being a century ago, the memories of that war remain. Only further fueled by the knowledge of the fragility of peace. Likewise, a hundred years ago X needed Zero's help to end the war. And now with him incapable of acting by himself and relying on Zero once more, a feeling of powerlessness would overcome him. With a century of peace cruelly broken, the reality of his feelings are all the more true; X can't create a utopia, the enemies will keep on coming, the battle is never ending and all X can do is rely on his friend's power.
That their weapons were honored should mean they did do something worth praising. It would also mean that their tenure as pure environmentalists ended quite quickly if not practically before it began, though.
Well, we ought to take into account their current status as the four guardians of Neo Arcadia, the ones without equal in fighting prowess. Certainly in the past they had to have proven themselves beyond the operation to restore the land for them to take on such an important position within the Neo Arcadian army. This probably relates to how at the founding of Neo Arcadia the four units were seemingly already led by them, despite their peaceful objectives.
-
Could it be they had dual purpose? Warriors in war, and environment restoration in peace?
But that their peace job was stopped at some point?
-
I could make a house out of these walls! :O
Ha, I chortled.
-
But with peace and the fighting that is starting again, painful memories long ago stored away resurface and his own tiredness is brought to like as he feels himself forced to take up arms once again.
So, supposing that X's tiredness is related to the echoes of history and the reawakening of tragic memories from over a hundred years ago... Did you want to venture a hypothesis on where Zero is for the other half a century where he's not being studied and worked with?
Well, we ought to take into account their current status as the four guardians of Neo Arcadia, the ones without equal in fighting prowess. Certainly in the past they had to have proven themselves beyond the operation to restore the land for them to take on such an important position within the Neo Arcadian army.
Perhaps. On the flip side, depending on how long the Resistance has been fighting Neo Arcadia during Copy X's 5 or so year rule, there could be quite enough time for them to be distinguished into modern warrior heroes by the media propaganda machine. If already saviors of humanity through their environmental work, and with their bioroid connection to the hero (X-liness is next to godliness in this regime), with the added bonus of their inherited loyalty to Copy X which makes them reliable generals for entrusting his will be done, they seem to be the natural selections of known available choices.
Then again, that they're loyal to X in the first place might also show they fought under his orders beforehand, during the Elf Wars or after. Or maybe they just always idolized the guy they were cloned from who saved the world countless times.
But that they take such a flippant approach to fighting could be indicative that they weren't around for the hardcore Elf Wars. Where even X needed a helping hand and combat gods like Zero and Omega roamed the Earth. It doesn't seem like they've had that overwhelmingly horrific war atrocity experience firsthand, or been humbled before by truly powerful enemies as our heroes faced in the Irregular Wars, before Zero came along. Like four big fish in a small pond, before the floodwaters broke.
Could it be they had dual purpose? Warriors in war, and environment restoration in peace?
But that their peace job was stopped at some point?
RTRZ booklet suggested something like that, but it's more a matter of reconciling that with what Takuya Aizu mentioned in the interview portion.
-
The big 4 are not cloned. They are based on his DNA, but not cloned. compare to Highmax. Hes definitely not a Zero clone, even though he has Zero's DNA.
also, they definitely have not seen the [parasitic bomb] X and Zero saw in the Elf Wars, but they, or Harpuia at least, still seems to know quite a bit about the likes of Weil. Enough to instantly recognize that he's no good.
-
【BIG4 of X-BIOROID】
陸海空影４大軍団を率いる将軍たち。
エックスDNAからのクローニングによって
生まれた、レプリロイド以上の存在である
http://www.inti.co.jp/cd/zero1/index.htm
The commanding generals of the four great armies; land, sea, air, and shadow. Born by means of cloning from X DNA, their existence goes beyond that of normal repliroids.
Maybe you should revise your definition of what it means to be cloned from something. Employment of such technology doesn't always constitute being a "carbon copy" of an original.
-
So, supposing that X's tiredness is related to the echoes of history and the reawakening of tragic memories from over a hundred years ago... Did you want to venture a hypothesis on where Zero is for the other half a century where he's not being studied and worked with?
There's multiple ways we can approach this. One proposition could be that the study of Zero did not have to start immediately. We know for a fact the facility in question was built to house him. How much time was needed to build this facility?
Likewise, we could wonder if the idea of studying Zero's Sigma Virus came about immediately. Zero's initial purpose was to remove something from himself. Perhaps they spent a good portion of that time removing the thing in question? Perhaps Zero was put in quarantine for a considerable time in the hopes that his absence would stop the spreading of the Sigma Virus? Perhaps for the longest time they ignored Zero under assumption that the samples of Zero's Sigma Virus were no different than the regular Sigma Virus? We would also have to consider the trouble in properly avoiding the negative effects of Zero's Sigma Virus on the research in question. Studying the Sigma Virus under safe conditions is no small feat.
The opposite proposition is considering the effectiveness of Mother Elf. With the completion of Mother Elf, Zero is purified from the Virus and his study comes to an end. But what about the rest of the world? Was her effect an instantaneous deus ex machina or did it take nearly half a century to turn all the Mavericks to normalcy? How long does it take to eliminate the Virus once and for all? Certainly "reversal" is incomparable to "immunity", conflicts will still arise and those irregulars will have to be stopped in order to cure them.
To simplify the above even more, X did say "nearly" one hundred years. We can thus shorten the timespan that needs to be covered to considerably less. And if all that is not enough, we could start looking at the combination of both seals to account for the near hundred years in question. As you say, the first few decades of Neo Arcadia's unstable beginnings could certainly add a bit to our total. But to say the whole near century after Neo Arcadia's founding was such a conflict? It feels quite wrong to think of the utopia as never having truly known the peace Zero sealed himself away for...
But that they take such a flippant approach to fighting could be indicative that they weren't around for the hardcore Elf Wars. Where even X needed a helping hand and combat gods like Zero and Omega roamed the Earth. It doesn't seem like they've had that overwhelmingly horrific war atrocity experience firsthand, or been humbled before by truly powerful enemies as our heroes faced in the Irregular Wars, before Zero came along. Like four big fish in a small pond, before the floodwaters broke.
Harpuia does seem to have a certain innate knowledge on the powers of Baby Elves, though. Did he experience take over before, saw the grueling atrocities they can cause or is he merely basing it all on the stories he has heard of the great war? Likewise, we must consider each their attitudes to combat. Matters such as Leviathan's boredom and Fefnir's burning desire, which exist in some form in Phantom and Harpuia too.. All of that could be born from the strong enemies they've once faced and that exist no longer. As they are still undoubtedly special as X-bioroids, they might not have been humbled by power, only by inexperience. Standing grounds in Elf Wars, rising to their status as four guardians, the ones without equal, the reappearance of Zero awakens in them that long forgotten need to fight.
RTRZ booklet suggested something like that, but it's more a matter of reconciling that with what Takuya Aizu mentioned in the interview portion.
Would you happen to have some specific statements on the matter? All I have at my immediate disposal is the biographies of the Big4, do the interviews and other shed more light on the matter?
Oh and one of these days we're going to force you to translate all of RTRZ, especially that website.
-
The opposite proposition is considering the effective of Mother Elf. With the completion of Mother Elf, Zero is purified from the Virus and his study comes to an end. But what about the rest of the world? Was her effect an instantaneous deus ex machina or did it take nearly half a century to turn all the Mavericks to normalcy? How long does it take to eliminate the Virus once and for all? Certainly "reversal" is incomparable to "immunity", conflicts will still arise and those irregulars will have to be stopped in order to cure them.
From reading the Data Files of the three Mechaniloids (Eagle Area M, Hydra and Leon Area I) in Rockman ZX, started to malfunction after they were infected by some kind of virus. Either Inti Creates plans to involve the Sigma Virus in the the next ZX games or this was nothing but a little footnote for speculations and theories.
Actually more interresting would it be if the Sigma Virus comes into the contact with Model V. Two sources of causing irregularity comes together, the outcome could be more worse than anything else known before.
-
You know, I haven't stayed in the loop with the Rockman Zero story intricacies as much as I wanted to, but I must say, I always love it when these discussions happen. I really think that the story was pretty well done, but if there was anything I wish Inti could have expanded on, it would have been the mythology of the Shining Arms. There's a ton of potential in that series of details.
-
Plus the fact that there are a bunch of unknown wielders which we will never know.
-
Unknown wielders? That's one notion we can discard completely. Aizu said their weapons weren't made for war because the Big4 weren't made for war.
-
what I mean, is the 10 shining arms. Zero, X, and the big 4 each have 1, or a set. Z-Saber, X-Buster, Nittoryu, Dark Cross, Sodom&Gomorrah, and Leviathan's Halberd. that leaves out 4 shining arms whom we dont know the owners of.
-
Ah, that part. If the Shining Arms is a myth, as MarshmallowMan proposed, then they might not exist.
-
Mm... true. after all, It sounds weird, X's buster is one, so what they just one day up and made X a new buster? Somehow I dont think its that simple. all of the shining arms are handheld weapons that can be given to you, including a saber, while X's is a part of his body. It sounds weird.
But it's fun to speculate on possible candidates either way. After all, I believe you once mentioned, we have 3 extra good guys lying around... Even if they dont seem the type.
-
1 - X
1 - Zero
2 - Axl
2- Harpuia
2- Fefnir
1 - Phantom
1 - Leviatham
Makes total of 10
-
Except, X has more than one X-buster and Zero has more than one Z-saber. All Shining Arms are counted as singular.
-
.....So...that makes 3 unknown Members? Or are they Mariono, Cinnamon and Massimo?
-
hey Zan, should I post my Shining Arms speculation thread here again? I think I did before the crash.
-
I don't think I even remember what this theory of yours is...
-
no theory just listing the current weilders, and then speculating.
http://www.themmnetwork.com/community/index.php?showtopic=1708
(Of course, the second two "possibilities" are invalid since the shining arms have been established to be either 1, or a set.)
-
Except, X has more than one X-buster and Zero has more than one Z-saber. All Shining Arms are counted as singular.
What about the Z-Buster?
-
Ceased to exist after X6. For reasons beyond my comprehension Inti refuses to acknowledge the idea of Zero, or any derivative thereof, using an arm-mounted buster.
-
BECAUSE GUNZ ARE COOL LOL.
plus, it simply isnt listed as a Shining arm. that simple.
-
Then the fact that he was in the 100+ year sleep mode, plus it was a copy body, which rendered the buster useless, or the buster wasn't integrated onto Zero's copy body when it was made.
-
And if Omega used an arm cannon, that bit of speculation might mean something.
-
Then the fact that he was in the 100+ year sleep mode, plus it was a copy body, which rendered the buster useless, or the buster wasn't integrated onto Zero's copy body when it was made.
Fact is that Omega, also uses a gun and not a armcannon.
By Inti Creates logic, Zero never used a armcannon in his entire life, cause he was designed with gun and not something what X uses. When we already talk about that, let us just imagine this with Zero's death in X1. Instead of the armcannon, X would have gained a freaking pistol for his buster. How weird is that?
The most reasonable solution for that problem is, that Zero used Axl's pistols as memento and therefore refused to use his Z-Buster again.
*sign*
Inti Creates... What was so wrong about to use a X series styled Zero in the Zero Series? Oh yes he didn't look human enough, so you dicided to use another artist to garble him. Man... You could just made his legs and arms more humanlike. A good example would be Samus Aran just with more muscles.
Keiji, sometimes you are a real duchebag.
-
By Inti Creates logic, Zero never used a armcannon in his entire life, cause he was designed with gun.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
Zero's buster in the Zero-series is not his own, he picked it up from Milan, as stated in character profiles on the Remastered Tracks website. So what projectile weapon Zero was designed with does not change as such a weapon was never depicted by Inticreates. As for Omega's use of the same model, that is not addressed, although it was always said that Zero's gun was an older buster model.
To nip a counter-point in the bud, "Z-Buster" in Z1 is a mistranslation. The weapon is always referred to as Buster Shot, properly translated in Z2 and onwards.
What was so wrong about to use a X series styled Zero in the Zero Series? Oh yes he didn't look human enough
That wasn't the only reason. Inti also wanted to remake Zero so that people could tell the Zero series apart at a glance. Thus they deliberately tried to make Zero as different as they could get away with. See MMZOCW.
-
The reason Omega uses a pistol is lazineness. Why put in a completely different sprite when you just need to palette swap? >_>'
-
And the reason that explanation doesn't work is that they actually DID resprite Omega's buster, so that he holds it gangster-style.
-
But he has his own set of buster firing sprites. If they were lready going to make him fire the buster differently, then why not go the extra step and give him a Z-Buster?
Edit: Beat me to the punch. Also, thats not exactly true. he holds it straight just like Zero, only he holds his arm straight out in front of him, as opposed to Zero's bent elbow and lower arm.
-
Hypershell, you misunderstood me. Because Omega uses a pistol and not a armcannon, we have to asume that Zero never used an armcannon from X1 and upwards to the Zero Series.
*sign*
Inti Creates... *facepalm*
-
Hmm, so they did, now that I look closer at it. Guess it was so that they don't confuse the newer fans who never played the X games.
-
Hypershell, you misunderstood me. Because Omega uses a pistol and not a armcannon, we have to asume that Zero never used an armcannon from X1 and upwards to the Zero Series.
Zero does not use an arm cannon in the X-series after X6. That's three games thus far. So I do not see that logic.
The fact remains that Omega and Zero use the same model of buster. So if Omega's buster is the Z-Buster, then simple logic dictates that Milan is running around with the copy Z-Buster. But this is not the case.
he holds it straight just like Zero, only he holds his arm straight out in front of him, as opposed to Zero's bent elbow and lower arm.
Getting equipped with Sprites Inc (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/files/Zero/) here:
http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/files/Zero/Zero3/Boss/FortressBoss/zero3_omega3sheet.gif
4th row, compare 1st (pull-out) and 2nd (firing) frame. He is holding it at an angle.
-
Hmm, so they did, now that I look closer at it. Guess it was so that they don't confuse the newer fans who never played the X games.
And that was so wrong in the first place.
"They don't like to bother the new players, but us the fanbase without any merci for logical thinking humans."
What kind of hypocrisey is that?!
And what I more hate is that stupid Praire in ZX. She can't even say for crying out loud Ciel's name. Why being so extra vague in the story, when other games are mentioned in Area N, which actually handle that backstory?
IMO they shouldn't care about all those clueless newbies. It is their own problem, not that of the developers.
In fact, such fanservice might even rise the selling of the older Rockman games.
Edit:
@Hypershell
Who says that his Z-Buster in X7,X8 and CM malfunctioned?
It could just have been the case, that Zero just prefer close combat, instead of ranged combat or Capcom just not wanted to do it because of the gameplay balance.
-
And what I more hate is that stupid Praire in ZX. She can't even say for crying out loud Ciel's name.
Well, it's proper that both Ceil AND Pararie to have a sisterly bond or something like that. Works well in the Japanese Dictionary no?
-
Well, it's proper that both Ceil AND Pararie to have a sisterly bond or something like that. Works well in the Japanese Dictionary no?
It would be okay, only if she have mentioned her name in the first place. I hate it to be kept dumb and I would have asked after her name, when I was Aile or Vent. It is first unpolite and second not helpful, if that person went missing. You understand?
-
Thanatos, you just have to remember the fact that X series and on, is famous for ambiguousness. they purposely avoid saying names. even refering to the big 4, X and Zero as "legendary heroes" an Ciel as either "the original founder of the guardians" or Sis/Oneechan
-
In the X series it wasn´t that bad, since Dr. Wily kinda wanted to be unknown. He is already in the history books, as the scientist who was responsible for the Wily Incidents. He don´t need more infamy as he already has.
In the Zero Series, they don´t say "that virus", but Sigma Virus. Perroquiet (the little and smart reploid with the classes) makes a reference to Sigma in Zero 2, but he doesn´t say his name, though.
Ambiguousness can be nice, but in ZX it is just overused. It would have been enough to call Albert, "that man". Villians are allowed to that, to give the player a riddle for their amusement, but supporters have no need to be ambiguous to the player.
I just say, half knowledge is dangerous, as it is in real life.
-
Last time Zero had his Buster was in X6, & the first time his old body is seen with a gun is in Zero 3. That's a big time gap during which Zero or Omega could have picked a gun up. Nothing says he doesn't have the Buster still anyway. Perhaps Wily just stopped upgrading it & it was left in the dust as technology progressed.
-
IMO they shouldn't care about all those clueless newbies. It is their own problem, not that of the developers.
Any problem of the clueless newbies' automatically becomes that of the developers. Sales and all that.
Not that it seemed to do them any good, looking at how discontinued it is...
-
Any problem of the clueless newbies' automatically becomes that of the developers. Sales and all that.
Not that it seemed to do them any good, looking at how discontinued it is...
So Align, you think to withhold information, would support the sales? I thought it would be the other way around.
In Vent's story, Dr.Vile is called "that man" and Zero "a hero". Wouldn't have been Praire so ambiguous, the new players would have become curious about Vile and Zero.
It might have even improved the sales of the older games.
-
Nice way to spin my words into lies.
I'll spell it out for you:
If the story refers to other games, it's confusing to any who haven't played those other games. The expected consumer hasn't.
If the story is too confusing for the consumer, he leaves unsatisfied, and tells his friend not to buy the game.
-
Align, it wasn't my intention to descredit you.
Things won't get confusing, when the back- and story are explained clearly to the player.
However a 6 year old child don't care about the story, but more about the gameplay in the first place.
-
Actually, I can explain it a better way.
Vent and Aile really dont have a clue as to who Weil, Zero, X and the big 4 are.
so prairie explains that there was a madman, and 6 heroes rose to stop him. while showing us the player, scenes depicting Weil, and scenes depicting Zero and Ciel, since we the player, DO know who she's talking about.
-
Things won't get confusing, when the back- and story are explained clearly to the player.
You overestimate people's intelligence.
-
Still waiting for MarshmallowMan's belated answer to my previous wall of text.
Who says that his Z-Buster in X7,X8 and CM malfunctioned?
He didn't say it malfunctioned, he simply said it was absent. Its absence means we have no way of knowing what happened to it between the X and ZERO series. Therefore, any explanation for its absence that will be given in due time, can be linked to giving Omega a near identical gun as Milan's. There's simply no reason to assume that the bustershot overwrites the Z-buster's existence in the matter you're proposing.
Though, it might just be the case that it really isn't usable anymore. Note that he's an especially poor match with Mach Jentra even in cutscenes, because Jentra is an aerial adversary and Zero is a melee fighter. Likewise, Zero vanishes from the cutscene when the Federation attacks them with flying mechaniloids.
The fact remains that Omega and Zero use the same model of buster. So if Omega's buster is the Z-Buster, then simple logic dictates that Milan is running around with the copy Z-Buster. But this is not the case.
Another thing that discounts Thanatos' notion is we have to factor in the use of the Z-saber as the bustershot's magazine to allow for charging. The Z-saber isn't part of Zero until X2, yet his Z-buster has noticeable charge capabilities even back then. Likewise, the Z-saber upgrade that allows for charging has not yet appeared in the X-series and the bustershot in question seems designed to work with it.
It would be okay, only if she have mentioned her name in the first place. I hate it to be kept dumb and I would have asked after her name, when I was Aile or Vent. It is first unpolite and second not helpful, if that person went missing. You understand?
What's so odd about calling your "sister", your "sister"? Given the situation, her name was the least important thing for them to know. Even if they asked for her name, to them, Ciel will always be Prairie's sister, because they don't know Ciel personally, thus they would refer to her as such.
Likewise, there was no need for her to identify the Livemetals by their former names, as everyone now knows them by their current names.
Things won't get confusing, when the back- and story are explained clearly to the player.
The problem with explaining everything is that it doubles the amount of text and slows down the game to boring levels. The ZX-series explains everything needed to understand it, everything else is needless info to the situation at hand.
-
Well, doubles.
"It was from my sis, Ciel..."
-
Likewise, there was no need for her to identify the Livemetals by their former names, as everyone now knows them by their current names.
Plus no one really knows who they are anymore. No one knows who X or any of them are. They have been out of action for at least 200 years. (I think that was the timeframe between then and the Zero series, no?)
just like Ciel's name, it would be irrelevant, as it wouldnt mean anything to them. "Oh he's named Zero? Oh. Ok."
-
Another thing that discounts Thanatos' notion is we have to factor in the use of the Z-saber as the bustershot's magazine to allow for charging. The Z-saber isn't part of Zero until X2, yet his Z-buster has noticeable charge capabilities even back then. Likewise, the Z-saber upgrade that allows for charging has not yet appeared in the X-series and the bustershot in question seems designed to work with it.
What? When was it ever stated that the Z-Saber is the gun's magazine? I figured he charged it with energy through his arm in the same manner he made a pipe super powerful with his energy & other such instances.
-
http://www.inti.co.jp/cd/zero1/index.htm
Get equipped with the ability to read moonspeak, watch the pretty pictures and pay attention to the game mechanics; Zero can not charge the bustershot until he gets the Z-saber.
-
Doesnt it mention it in the manuals?
I think ZOCW also says something in regards to it.
-
How explicitly does that page say it?
I figure that the reintroduction of Zero to his Z-Saber hastened his getting over Hibernation Sickness/made him remember something inside. I mean, haven't you ever been groggy?
-
Still waiting for MarshmallowMan's belated answer to my previous wall of text.
Sorry! My bad.
We know for a fact the facility in question was built to house him. How much time was needed to build this facility?
In a universe where fortresses spring up in weeks and whole cities in months, giving this construction a year to complete already seems generous.
Likewise, we could wonder if the idea of studying Zero's Sigma Virus came about immediately. Zero's initial purpose was to remove something from himself. Perhaps they spent a good portion of that time removing the thing in question?
If that thing and their experiments are both concerned with the virus' relationship with Zero which is not completely understood, then said testing is likely a necessary step in the very task Zero asked them to perform.
Perhaps Zero was put in quarantine for a considerable time in the hopes that his absence would stop the spreading of the Sigma Virus?
That would be an experiment, noting the effects of quarantine. Not that it makes sense for them to think Zero can contribute to the virus spreading while in cold sleep. The virus still spreads and survives to threaten the peace by other means while Zero is asleep, or we wouldn't need Mother Elf.
Perhaps for the longest time they ignored Zero under assumption that the samples of Zero's Sigma Virus were no different than the regular Sigma Virus?
In other words, they stuck him out on the back burner. The first scientist in X6 seemed apprehensive to even take Zero out of commission in the first place, much less waste time when he's already being handed an overwhelming work load.
There isn't a very easy explanation for what letting him sit and doing nothing accomplishes. Everything points toward a high priority project. Downtime between experiments could also fall under the same umbrella of the half century span either way.
We would also have to consider the trouble in properly avoiding the negative effects of Zero's Sigma Virus on the research in question. Studying the Sigma Virus under safe conditions is no small feat.
Proper precautions which the scientists needed to be taking into account during their experiments, so this doesn't add time.
The opposite proposition is considering the effectiveness of Mother Elf. With the completion of Mother Elf, Zero is purified from the Virus and his study comes to an end.
Maybe, maybe not. We can't be sure the Mother Elf cured Zero, his original body at least. If portions of Wily's programming did remain in it. For whatever reason Zero is immune to Dark Elf's control, he may be resistant to Mother Elf's purging. Perhaps only separation from that body into a new one was the solution. Grey area stuff.
But what about the rest of the world? Was her effect an instantaneous deus ex machina or did it take nearly half a century to turn all the Mavericks to normalcy? How long does it take to eliminate the Virus once and for all? Certainly "reversal" is incomparable to "immunity", conflicts will still arise and those irregulars will have to be stopped in order to cure them.
We can't really be sure that the virus was eradicated from the entire populace, only that the fighting quickly ended. Leading to a brief time of recorded peace where X ideally isn't fighting so much but might have been too brief for X to consider any kind of end to the fighting in retrospect. Followed by the 4 year down and dirty tragic Elf Wars.
But the entire time up through Omega's birth and copy Zero's emergence in the Elf Wars could also fall under the half century of experimentation from a conservative viewpoint. Omega's creation itself can be looked upon as a form of experiment that Zero was quite involved with.
To simplify the above even more, X did say "nearly" one hundred years. We can thus shorten the timespan that needs to be covered to considerably less.
I guess 51 years would be enough if he only rounded to the nearest 100, but I don't think that's what he meant. I guess I'd settle for 80-ish, but I don't really even see that many years being accounted for before Zero was woken up again.
It feels quite wrong to think of the utopia as never having truly known the peace Zero sealed himself away for...
It may be a lesson that giving in to the fearful humans and in effect running away from his problems wasn't really the best idea. Same situation for X sealing himself, he ducks out of the picture and things get a whole lot worse. Similar to X's lesson in X7, can't protect the world by giving up the fight, but long cycles of history are all about repeating themselves whether we want them to or not. X was square against Zero's final seal, and it seems to have even been done behind X's back to some extent. Not exactly a cool thing to do to your best friend. If copy Zero was still spreading the virus that would be one thing, but it doesn't appear to have been the case.
Having only some idea of why they both did what they did, it still doesn't mean that was necessarily the best solution. Model Z's discussion of the challenge of facing one's destiny and carving it, sounds better than ignoring or hiding from it. If from the beginning of Neo Arcadia they had tackled their problems head-on, together, the way they always used to, things may never have gotten to the dark place they were in the Zero series. It was only them coming together and relying on each other once again that pulled the world back from disaster.
Big 4
Maybe they were around for the Elf Wars, maybe they weren't, I don't have much to add at the moment.
From reading the Data Files of the three Mechaniloids (Eagle Area M, Hydra and Leon Area I) in Rockman ZX, started to malfunction after they were infected by some kind of virus. Either Inti Creates plans to involve the Sigma Virus in the the next ZX games or this was nothing but a little footnote for speculations and theories.
Viruses still exist in the Zero series, Cocapetri used some advanced virus he got from Weil to spread chaos in Z4. Dark Elf's curse and powers may be virus related as well. Sigma virus isn't necessarily the only virus in their universe. Some variant of viruses and diseases will probably always exist for robotkind (outside of Elysium).as it does in nature. Viruses like the ones mentioned in ZX, and the various body altering and mind control powers of Model V, might be a distant form of Sigma virus evolution, or may be unrelated phenomena.
Shining Arms speculation
The other day I entertained a brief notion that maybe all the Shining Arms made appearances in Z1, as a result of the early notion of Inti not expecting a sequel. I came up with:
Necromancess' staff - The power to bring back the dead is pretty cool.
Hanumachine's pole - Already based on a legendary weapon itself.
Asura Bazura's swords/shield - Not sure what specifically should be counted, but she's got unique handlheld weapons at least.
I didn't have a fouth handheld weapon though, so the last one would have to be attached to someone, breaking the pattern again, Maybe Falcon's wings or Anchortus' pincers or something. Ganeshariff's... Oh well, nevermind.
I wonder if Inti will ever touch on it again. That and the great Guardian mysteries, of which we know what, only one of..?
Ambiguousness can be nice, but in ZX it is just overused.
Probably, but it serves the hype and the mood.
We have the Guardians, a secretive vigilante group bordering on the fringe of what is legal or the social norm, and are likely to be guilty of circumventing the life span equality laws. They generally use codenames for each other, presumably not just because it's cool but for their own protection as well. For them a certain level of vagueness in identity may be a virtue.
Then we've got these kids, Vent and Aile. They're 14, orphaned at age 4, don't seem to know their history especially well, don't know what Cyber Elves are, spending their youth working (did they go to school?) with their legal guardian Giro, a man with many secrets he keeps to himself. During the game, they're getting a rushed sort of crash course on the past from people used to keeping secrets and talking in codes, inbetween and on top of accomplishing difficult missions of general urgency.
I'd like to think our hero(es) took some time after Serpent's demise and caught up on some of the missing details during the 4+ years between ZX and ZXA, off-screen of course. At least getting to know a bit about the personal histories of their biometal partners.
Doesnt it mention it in the manuals?
I think the English manuals just said something non-specific about the Z-saber powering the buster up.
How explicitly does that page say it?
【BUSTERSHOT】
レジスタンスが携帯する旧式ウェポン。
ゼットセイバーの柄をマガジンにすることで
強力なエネルギーブレットを射出することが
可能になった。
Bustershot
An old style weapon carried by the rResistance. Applying the Z-saber's handle into the magazine, it becomes possible to fire stronger energy bullets.
I figure that the reintroduction of Zero to his Z-Saber hastened his getting over Hibernation Sickness/made him remember something inside. I mean, haven't you ever been groggy?
Maybe he did remember something, seeing as he thought to put the saber into the gun's magazine in the first place. He still had a lot of skill remembering/relearning to do after that, though.
It just occurred to me that in a topic about the revisions the Z series undertook, we haven't discussed the change from the cross-like Heaven to the domed Neo Arcadia. Not that I can think of much to add about it, just seems funny we didn't mention it.
-
I think that the English manuals state using the Z saber as the Buster's magazine.
Im not sure. The only manual I have is Z4's, since my Z1 and 3 were used.
I like to think that Vent and Aile caught up on things in between ZX and ZXA. at least, they seem that way. dunno, but they give off that sort of air about them. plus theya re now Guardians as well, so it wouldnt surprise me that they got filled in on all this "Secret code gibberish" you mentioned. after all, ZXA takes 4 or so years, like you said... thats plenty of time to study up on the Zero series history the initially only got a summary of, from prairie.
One thing though, that id like to know, is when exactly the reploid/human equality laws were passed. how long after Legions founding? I mean, Prairie seems to have undergone the reploid procedure, but yet, she's still around, period. She should be like 200 years old. And I dont think that she simply has lived a fruitful long life. im sort of wondering in that area. when were the laws passed? depending on when, she may have avoided them.
-
We can't really be sure that the virus was eradicated from the entire populace, only that the fighting quickly ended. Leading to a brief time of recorded peace where X ideally isn't fighting so much but might have been too brief for X to consider any kind of end to the fighting in retrospect. Followed by the 4 year down and dirty tragic Elf Wars.
Thing is, we're talking about a conflict that spanned centuries, how do you define "quickly" in regards to something like that?
I think for the first sealing, this time period where Mother Elf and X are taking of the irregulars, is the only logical one for Zero not to be used in Virus experiments, even though the fighting is still going on.
What might be interesting to consider here, is that Dr.Vile was said to create Omega to end the irregular wars.. if this extended time period of fighting and use of Mother Elf existed, was Vile perhaps then granted the use of Zero's body as another measure to end the war? It would certainly add to him being unhappy about the peace that came about by Mother Elf, and continuing to work on his Omega project as the world was destroyed by his behind the scenes actions.
The other day I entertained a brief notion that maybe all the Shining Arms made appearances in Z1
I wonder, in RTRZ, how exactly did they describe the Shining Arms? If they were already described as the weapons used by the top-class irregular hunters of the irregular wars, then we probably have to look elsewhere than the Mythos Repliroids.
We have the Guardians, a secretive vigilante group bordering on the fringe of what is legal or the social norm, and are likely to be guilty of circumventing the life span equality laws. They generally use codenames for each other, presumably not just because it's cool but for their own protection as well. For them a certain level of vagueness in identity may be a virtue.
Vigilante? Given the lack of organized irregular hunters amongst Legions, I always got the impression they were more official than that. At least, the english ZX site referred to them as a secret government organization.
Anything to add that might clear this up?
【BUSTERSHOT】
レジスタンスが携帯する旧式ウェポン。
ゼットセイバーの柄をマガジンにすることで
強力なエネルギーブレットを射出することが
可能になった。
Bustershot
An old style weapon carried by the Resistance. Applying the Z-saber's handle into the magazine, it becomes possible to fire stronger energy bullets.
We're so going to have to force you to translate the rest of that site, or the whole booklet for that matter. You just watch, someday!
-
Hmm... Another question to add to my previous inquiry, how the hell is it that they let Weil use Zero's body? I mean, it would be just as easy, if not more, to just wake up the damn bastard rather than going behind his back and donating his body while his brain is still sleeping.
Unless, and its an idea that I just thought of, they were already planning to give him a new body? Maybe as part of Zero's initial reason for sealing himself?
Though then Weil probably would not have gotten the body if that was the reason...
anything?
Vigilante? Given the lack of organized irregular hunters amongst Legions, I always got the impression they were more official than that. At least, the english ZX site referred to them as a secret government organization.
Yknow, call me a GiTS fanatic, but sound slike it could work very much like Public security section 9.
I mean, they do things that seem to be outside of official channels sometimes, just going off on their own. Though we don't know if Prairie actually does do the "paperwork" behind the scenes.
-
Whoa whoa whoa. Zero actually takes the Saber in & out of the Shot every time he switches how he's using it? That sounds tedious. Can't he just find another Saber? They can't be that rare.
-
Oh sure. He can just go to weapons R-Us, which juuust so happens to be in a city that considers you not only an urban legend, but an extremist and a maverick.
Plus you really cannot match the Z saber. Specially since it is a shining arm, which means it is sure as hell special.
-
Well Sigma managed to have one, & Zero got given at least 2 by Wily. Harpuia has 2. There have to be more examples I'm forgetting off the top of my head. It's not like the technology for beam sabers is new by then. Or were records lost all over the [tornado fang]ing place during one of the catastrophes after X & Zero starting [tornado fang]ing the world up royal, directly & indirectly?
-
So... Where'd the second one come from? X only gave him 1 in-game.
-
Cerveau maybe. who knows. I mean, he DOES have two saber holsters... one on each leg.
Well Sigma managed to have one,
X series & Zero got given at least 2 by Wily.
X series, Harpuia has 2.
And he works for the Neo Arcadian Government, so he can get as many as he wants. Plus, he's had them just as long as Zero has had his own Shining arm. Since the Nittoryu are part of the shining arms.
-
Remember that Zero's sprite gets mirrored when facing in another direction. Two holster made for symmetry.
Or you can say HE USES SABRE 1 WHEN FACING RIGHT, AND SABRE 2 WHEN FACING LEFT
-
The artwork shows it too.
-
And? My point still stands.
-
The second saber is probably the Triple Rod, given by Cerveau. In non extended form it's just another Z-saber. Likewise, the Shield Boomerang, Chain Rod and Recoil Rod work in similar fashions; it's the Z-saber transformed and used differently.
-
I'm still wondering whether or not Omega has two sabers...
Let this thread go without checking a little too long. Some old stuff I missed:
@Hypershell
Who says that his Z-Buster in X7,X8 and CM malfunctioned?
It could just have been the case, that Zero just prefer close combat, instead of ranged combat or Capcom just not wanted to do it because of the gameplay balance.
As Zan said, I never said it malfunctioned, I said it was absent. The cause of that absence is unknown.
The game balance argument is largely irrelevant to Command Mission; the only benefit of Shot versus Combat is aerial opponents, and Zero has the Dragon Slash for that anyway. So there's no real reason Double Charge Wave couldn't have made an appearance in Command Arts.
Furthermore the absence of the Z-Buster leaves Zero conspicuously shoved off-screen during Redips's attack on the Central Tower, right after R is killed. They seemingly figured that him taking cover with Marino, Massimo, and Cinnamon wouldn't be good for his image, and X and Axl are firing back. Zero just disappears.
As for X7, Zero's already firing a seeker-missile out of his Z-Saber anyway.
I think it's less a matter of game balance and more a matter of just removing a similarity to X to try and keep them more distinct from each other. They already did that in X4 before bringing the Z-Buster back for another two rounds.
Though, it might just be the case that it really isn't usable anymore. Note that he's an especially poor match with Mach Jentra even in cutscenes, because Jentra is an aerial adversary and Zero is a melee fighter. Likewise, Zero vanishes from the cutscene when the Federation attacks them with flying mechaniloids.
As stated above Zero has Dragon Slash to handle the likes of Jentra. And as aerial advantages go Jentra is actually pretty lousy; a solid hit will leave him grounded for a bit. I view Zero's poor matchup against him as simply further evidence of Force Metal tanking, same as X (who actually has the advantage in that case with X-Fire) against Jango. It's not until Scarface's attack at the beginning of Chapter 9 that there are any implications, much less sure fact, of either X or Zero beating a Force Metal Reploid one-on-one.
Another thing that discounts Thanatos' notion is we have to factor in the use of the Z-saber as the bustershot's magazine to allow for charging. The Z-saber isn't part of Zero until X2, yet his Z-buster has noticeable charge capabilities even back then. Likewise, the Z-saber upgrade that allows for charging has not yet appeared in the X-series and the bustershot in question seems designed to work with it.
Vice-versa probably makes a little more sense; Milan's gun (or at the very least its magazine interface) being a common weapon at the time of the Z-Saber upgrade. Otherwise we have to ask what the heck Milan is doing with such a specially made weapon. Note that, although this could easily be dismissed as sprite laziness, some manner of magazine is visible before obtaining the Z-Saber.
-
could someone answer my questions from before?
One thing though, that id like to know, is when exactly the reploid/human equality laws were passed. how long after Legions founding? I mean, Prairie seems to have undergone the reploid procedure, but yet, she's still around, period. She should be like 200 years old. And I dont think that she simply has lived a fruitful long life. im sort of wondering in that area. when were the laws passed? depending on when, she may have avoided them.
Hmm... Another question to add to my previous inquiry, how the hell is it that they let Weil use Zero's body? I mean, it would be just as easy, if not more, to just wake up the damn bastard rather than going behind his back and donating his body while his brain is still sleeping.
Unless, and its an idea that I just thought of, they were already planning to give him a new body? Maybe as part of Zero's initial reason for sealing himself?
Though then Weil probably would not have gotten the body if that was the reason...
anything?
-
X series
X series,
That doesn't exclude them from 24XX.
-
As stated above Zero has Dragon Slash to handle the likes of Jentra.
Which I don't think he has at that time. Of course, Force Metal and the aerial disadvantage only adds insult to injury. As for X, it's his hobby to start the game weaker than Zero.
24XX.
Unknown date is unknown.
And X-series weaponry has no relevance to ZERO-series weaponry because Zero had no weapons when Passy revived him.
could someone answer my questions from before?
Most certainly not.
One thing though, that id like to know, is when exactly the reploid/human equality laws were passed. how long after Legions founding?
At the time of Legions' founding.
depending on when, she may have avoided them.
Nick: I'm Nick... Who are you? As you can see, I'm an old-model Reploid! Just because I'm old doesn't mean that my life cycle settings are any longer. It just means that I'm a previous generation Reploid.
Hmm... Another question to add to my previous inquiry, how the hell is it that they let Weil use Zero's body? I mean, it would be just as easy, if not more, to just wake up the damn bastard rather than going behind his back and donating his body while his brain is still sleeping.
Because they figured Omega would be far more effective in mass exterminating irregulars compared to Zero?
-
Unknown date is unknown.
What do you mean? 21XX was X, 22XX was CM, 23XX was when Zero took a nap, & 24XX was when he woke up. Or am I mistaken?
-
You are quite mistaken. 21XX is X, 22XX is Command Mission, and 22XX is Zero series. actually, isnt ZX 24XX? Isnt ZX 200 years after Z4?
Yeah. CM sorta clashes with the Zero series a bit.
Most certainly not.
Eh? Why not? I seriously wanna know about the matter.
-
Flame, MANGA IS NOT CANON. =p
Only the Rockman ZERO manga says 22XX. Whereas in terms of the games, XCM is the only game that is confirmed as taking place in 22XX. The only game related reference to 22XX as the ZERO-series exists in some of the earliest advertisements for the game.
The Rockman ZERO series takes place 150 years or more after Zero seals himself away. Zero has yet to seal himself in the X-series as of 22XX. Therefore unknown century, unknown millennium.
I could tell you the exact time, day and month one attack from Ragnarok killed 15 million, though.
Eh? Why not? I seriously wanna know about the matter.
I'll never tell you!
Except, I already seriously explained it to you in the last post.
-
Flame, MANGA IS NOT CANON. =p
Only the Rockman ZERO manga says 22XX. Whereas in terms of the games, XCM is the only game that is confirmed as taking place in 22XX. The only game related reference to 22XX as the ZERO-series exists in some of the earliest advertisements for the game.
The Rockman ZERO series takes place 150 years or more after Zero seals himself away. Zero has yet to seal himself in the X-series as of 22XX. Therefore unknown century, unknown millennium.
I could tell you the exact time, day and month one attack from Ragnarok killed 15 million, though.
I did not say ANYTHING about Manga. Ive always believed, I dont even remember where from- that Zero series is 22XX. its been stated somewhere, I just dont remember. probably because they say a century after the 21XX X series. which, mind you, was said before CM came out, so at the time, it WAS 22XX, since that is what would be a century after. of course, then we go on with Z3 and the el wars, which state that the elf wars itself lasted a century...
I'll never tell you!
Except, I already seriously explained it to you in the last post.
Oh- I missed it.
Sorry.
-
Inticreates themselves destroyed the 22XX estimate when they added a second sealing for Zero in order to explain the Dark Elf's origins. Clearly they did not consider themselves bound by the calendar, so there's no reason Command Mission should have been.
I have to seriously question the "150 years" count. That is bare minimum when you take MMZOCW into account, but I do not find the bare minimum to be the likely scenario in this case. MMZOCW states "For half a century, Zero was used in many Sigma Virus-related experiments." That tells us the length of experiments, not the length of his seal. Zero did not seal himself to donate his body to science, he sealed himself for the removal of something not specified from his systems, and was expected to wake up in approximately 102 years. Obviously things did not go as planned for him to have woken up in a copy body with the original spearheading the worst war in history, but that could yield a longer seal just as easily as it could a shorter one.
Which I don't think he has at that time.
Incorrect. Dragon Slash is one of his three default abilities for Command Arts, he has it in Lagrano Ruins at the very beginning of the game. Wave Slash and Skull Crush are the ones you have to earn.
Basically it just shows how awesome Zero is. No other character can reliably hit aerial foes using Combat attacks without the use of Hawk/Eagle Eye.
-
Thing is, we're talking about a conflict that spanned centuries, how do you define "quickly" in regards to something like that?
Shorter than the 4 year war that supersedes it, I venture to guess.
I wonder, in RTRZ, how exactly did they describe the Shining Arms?
It didn't attempt to define them, it only noted that the Z-saber was one of them.
Vigilante?
Well, vigilante is my view, though perhaps I am mistaken. I can't seem to find the old english ZX site to compare. Does is still exist somewhere? The current english ZXA one seems to call the Raiders "Guardians."
I can compare that the english ZX instruction manual has translated 国家非公認組織 as "an organization run unofficially by the state" whereas I would read it to mean simply that the nations legally have not authorized/do not condone this group. A non-governmental organization is my understanding, something like a reploid Greenpeace. Sometimes it's written 政府非公認組織 instead, which is roughly the same, a governmentally non-sanctioned organization. While certainly a secret government organization would be regarded as unofficial and be denied involvement to the general public, they'd still be reporting to the highest levels of authority. So far there hasn't been a stated connection to Legions, the highest form of world government, whom such a secret organization would seemingly be held accountable to in their world. The one given credit to their foundation in-game is Prairie's sis, who has quite a history of doing what she believes is right regardless of the law's position.
ZX Tunes' liner notes for Grand Nuage included:
全ての人々を守る「盾」としてのガーディアンの象徴である一方で、その行動を制限する術を持たない政府にとって、いささか煙たい存在でもある。
Guarian's "shield" is a symbol of protection for all people, but on the other hand, the government which does not posses means to restrict their actions regards their existence rather murkily.
It doesn't sound to me like the government likes them too much. A private army fly around freely in their mobile base, outside the legal jurisdiction of the existing nations, doing whatever they please. Their actions are generally noble and they're heroes and protectors to the people on the frontiers, where Hunters may be in short supply. They're not openly breaking the law or presenting a danger so they are tolerated, but not exactly welcomed. Serpent's security forces on the other hand seem to have both the confidence of the people and the official backing of the government to hold important influence within Cinq Ville. There's definitely a disparity between those groups, whereas if Guardian had some superlative secret authority in the government, they would be in a position to arrest Serpent for questioning directly and the seize his company from him. Though perhaps they simply lacked clear opportunity to do so without starting a war they weren't sure they had the firepower to win.
I could be wrong, maybe Guardian did have ties to some government somewhere. Maybe Master Thomas secretly used them as spies on Albert's plans, or by Albert himself to keep one step ahead of his own antagonists. Mikhail at least seems entirely clueless, although he seems to have been in the dark about many things when it comes to his colleagues' activities.
Given the lack of organized irregular hunters amongst Legions, I always got the impression they were more official than that. At least, the english ZX site referred to them as a secret government organization.
The Hunter Guild is an official group through which Legions interacts and supports, and by whom maverick uprisings are supposed to be suppressed. The armed force Atlas led in her doomed country was Hunter-related in ZXG's D&W track. But like that example shows, sometimes they seem to be outnumbered or outclassed by their maverick opposition. Particularly on the edges of civilization like the outlands, they can do for a bit of help. Whether Ciel took it upon herself to take up that mantle or the government secretly backed her in doing so, Guardian still seems to be operating outside the parameters of normal law.
Furthermore the absence of the Z-Buster leaves Zero conspicuously shoved off-screen during Redips's attack on the Central Tower, right after R is killed. They seemingly figured that him taking cover with Marino, Massimo, and Cinnamon wouldn't be good for his image, and X and Axl are firing back. Zero just disappears.
Maybe he jumped up there and took down the ship, X3 style. Something unshown ended the assault, I like to imagine he contributed a bit.
I view Zero's poor matchup against him as simply further evidence of Force Metal tanking, same as X (who actually has the advantage in that case with X-Fire) against Jango.
Zero might not have been at 100%, since we don't know what kind of injuries he sustained after the first chapter, or under what circumstances he recovered from them. Good enough to fight through Jentra's goons, though.
Ive always believed, I dont even remember where from- that Zero series is 22XX.
Don't feel too bad about it, Capcom artist Ryuuji Higurashi thought the same thing when he was working on Command Mission.
-
Well Zero DID fall off the Lagrano lab top floor, and from what we know, that outright knocked X out, if not extensively damaged him, who jumped. Zero on the other hand, was knocked off by Shadows Cannon.
Plus, while X was found by the guys who brought him to Central tower, I dont think anyone found Zero. He probably did LOL AUTO REPAIR a little bit, and picked up some energy capsules.
-
It just occurred to me that in a topic about the revisions the Z series undertook, we haven't discussed the change from the cross-like Heaven to the domed Neo Arcadia. Not that I can think of much to add about it, just seems funny we didn't mention it.
I'm not sure if "domed Neo Arcadia" really replaced "cross-like Heaven". Given Heaven Base's depiction in the manga, to me it seems more like they replaced that concept with the Orbital Elevator and Area X; Neo Arcadia being the city that stands around Heaven.
On another note, I still wonder how the whole dome concept is supposed to work.
Well, vigilante is my view, though perhaps I am mistaken.
No, your post certainly clears it up. The games themselves aren't very clear it on the matter and this explains why Thomas did mention that Guardian was approaching the quarry.
It didn't attempt to define them, it only noted that the Z-saber was one of them.
Then certainly, at the time of Z1, they could have been anything.
-
On another note, I still wonder how the whole dome concept is supposed to work.
Me too. Sure doesn't resemble the domes of Paradigm City.
-
Paradigm City was CM, right?
-
Paradigm City was CM, right?
You're getting your stuff crossed here, bro. Paradigm City was the location of the anime series "The Big O". It's a domed city ruled by a large megacorporation, with nobody quite happening that happened earlier than 40 years ago.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Paradigm_City.JPG)
-
I was drunk, & I realized in my dreams before I awoke today.
-
Coming in late and reponding to the original post.
My solution:
I never played Zero 2, X6(or pretend I didn't), or X7 and pretend X8 was non-canonical(Canocal?).
I never saw a problem with anything. Maybe they could pretend they used different calendars or something.
-
and pretend X8 was non-canonical(Canocal?).
Im going to necropost here- but- Why?
did you dislike it that much?
-
and pretend X8 was non-canonical(Canocal?).
Was it because of Zero's helmet?
-
Was it because of Zero's helmet?
Lord knows I have my nitpicks with X8, but I know I wouldnt disown it over that.
-
I'm just going to throw my guess in here; maybe he has a problem with Axl?
-
Is this the right place to ask about the soul-splitting of X sealing the Dark Elf? Specifically, if that happened, what the source is, and if the Guardians know about X being at Yggdrasil (if so, why do they accept Copy-X as the real one?).
-
Im going to necropost here- but- Why?
did you dislike it that much?
I love X8 as a game, but if we say X6 ruins the continuity, what then of X7 or X8? Just because X8 was a great game doesn't mean it's still screwing the continuity even more.
-
I love X8 as a game, but if we say X6 ruins the continuity, what then of X7 or X8? Just because X8 was a great game doesn't mean it's still screwing the continuity even more.
None of the aforementioned games ruined the continuity in any way.
Is this the right place to ask about the soul-splitting of X sealing the Dark Elf? Specifically, if that happened, what the source is, and if the Guardians know about X being at Yggdrasil (if so, why do they accept Copy-X as the real one?).
From the Zero Collection site:
"The Legendary Blue Messiah" X
The legendary blue repliroid and ruler of Neo Arcadia who symbolizes "infinite potential" and a "purveyor of justice" for all.
Though he had done so for the sake of peace, he often worried over having to destroy his fellow repliroids during the long confrontations of the "Irregular Wars", a condition which went mostly unchanged even after Zero went to sleep following the Nightmare Incident.
In the closing period of the Irregular Wars (later referred to as the Elf Wars), X cooperated with Zero who had acquired a copy body, to capture the Dark Elf, and arranged to use his anti-virus countermeasure to seal her within his own body.
When he sealed the Dark Elf, the shock forced X's soul from his body and split it into 5 cyber elves.
Eventually, 4 of these souls were incorporated into the Shitennou of Neo Arcadia, while one continued to wander the earth.
This is further elaborated upon in CopyX's profile, which says that his body was originally produced to revive X after he sealed Dark Elf, but X's cyber elf vanished, requiring a copy instead.
-
Bit of a sidetrack, but... "after Zero went to sleep following the Nightmare Incident."? So that ending wasn't a sneak peek, after all?
-
X7, X8 and XCM are also "following the nightmare incident". There is no timeframe specified.
Also, did you really miss all this discussion back when the Zero Collection site was first put online?...
-
So as long as things happen after the Nightmare Incident, it's ok to keep Zero from actually sleeping. Up to the point where Zero goes to sleep for 5 hours and then Megaman Zero happens.
-
You say that as if we know exactly in which year Rockman Zero takes place.
-
I do?
I assume that the later he waits to sleep, the less time he sleeps and that 5 hours is indeed an amount of time less than the maximum and more than the minimum possible time spent doing something. Regardless of when it happens, the longer he waits, the more silly the amount of time he sleeps becomes. Doesn't help that somebody decided that "following X6" means anytime after X6 and not that he sleeps after X6 but before any other X games.
-
X7, X8 and XCM are also "following the nightmare incident". There is no timeframe specified.
Also, did you really miss all this discussion back when the Zero Collection site was first put online?...
It just sounds like the phrasing implies the Nightmare incident->sealing directly with nothing of import happening in between.
I do remember the discussions about this, but they weren't stickied so I wasn't sure how it affected other things we (or you guys, rather) established with logic and reasoning rather than outright word of god. Like the Guardians obviously couldn't have been active in the Elf Wars if they didn't exist prior to Dark Elf being sealed.
-
I do?
I assume that the later he waits to sleep, the less time he sleeps and that 5 hours is indeed an amount of time less than the maximum and more than the minimum possible time spent doing something. Regardless of when it happens, the longer he waits, the more silly the amount of time he sleeps becomes. Doesn't help that somebody decided that "following X6" means anytime after X6 and not that he sleeps after X6 but before any other X games.
We, the fanbase, decided that the X6 Zero ending did not have to happen immediately following X6, in order to validate the X-series titles that follow. There is no official word whatsoever on how exactly those titles relate to Rockman Zero. Whether they were developed with that premise in mind, or follow a different ending to X6, these titles do nothing to mess up continuity.
Either way, Inticreates has only given us the statement that X1 to X6 is "1XX years ago" and that classic is "more than 200", with Zero being studied for "50 years." As the X-series spans no more than a few years up to that point, we have decades of leeway that only XCM could even begin to stress.
It just sounds like the phrasing implies the Nightmare incident->sealing directly with nothing of import happening in between.
There are a couple of requirements for Zero sealing himself away. One of these as that people, including himself, acknowledge that he is spreading the virus. As X6 gives no indication of anybody beyond Gate knowing, how could Zero seal himself for a reason he is not yet aware of?
Like the Guardians obviously couldn't have been active in the Elf Wars if they didn't exist prior to Dark Elf being sealed.
The only word of their activity prior to being sealed is the Shining Arms, which we can just presume were wielded by X, or are the epitome of Neo Arcadia propaganda.
-
*1-up sound*
I know, I know, necro-posting, but MM25 had a bit of new info on this one (see second quote-bit below)
We, the fanbase, decided that the X6 Zero ending did not have to happen immediately following X6, in order to validate the X-series titles that follow. There is no official word whatsoever on how exactly those titles relate to Rockman Zero. Whether they were developed with that premise in mind, or follow a different ending to X6, these titles do nothing to mess up continuity.
I suppose it technically is an assumption but it is a logical one. It's a known fact that MMZ was in development already when X6 was out and that Inafune's initial reaction was that it'd be trouble for storytelling. And while it was odd that nothing specifically indicates Zero's X6 ending as being a "sneek peek" at anything, it is equally odd that no event within the rest of X6 ties into it, including X's "good" ending where Zero is present and accounted for. It's only because of the MMZ Collection website that the Nightmare Incident relates to Zero's sealing/research at all, as X6 itself doesn't specify what Zero is hoping to accomplish.
Either way, Inticreates has only given us the statement that X1 to X6 is "1XX years ago" and that classic is "more than 200", with Zero being studied for "50 years." As the X-series spans no more than a few years up to that point, we have decades of leeway that only XCM could even begin to stress.
Since the last thread post in 2010 there is a new sliver of information on this front. Higurashi (lead artist on Command Mission) was asked about Command Mission's place in the timeline in the MM25 interviews, and here's what he had to say:
"Command Mission" is technically a spin-off, so even though it takes place in 22XX, it's not necessarily the same "22XX" during which the "Zero" series takes place. Still, we didn't want to cut it off completely just because it's a spin-off. Our goal was to incorporate some of the "Zero" series' flavor in order to make it feel like "Command Mission" is still connected to the other games, like it is a part of the same family. So it might be easier if you regard "Command Mission" not as "a story that takes place between X7 and the Zero series", but rather as "one of many potential futures that exists independently from the Zero series."
I've said it before, and Inti basically admitted it themselves in MMZOCW, but I'll say it again: The lack of "22XX" references from Z2 onward is much more justly laid at Inticreates' feet, what with the Dark Elf's origins and such, than it is at any notion of trying to make room for the later X-series titles.
Command Mission is a squeeze, but I don't think there's any reason it NEEDS to be an alternate. It would seem that idea is still on the table within Capcom, though.
This makes me all the more disappointed about Mega Man Online's cancellation. Even if everyone is a Copy Chip clone and even if the game would wind up being non-canon anyway, Cinnamon's visions of Neo Arcadia are the only effort ever made to actually reconcile elements of Command Mission and Zero series. It would have been an interesting point of discussion, for sure.
The only word of their activity prior to being sealed is the Shining Arms, which we can just presume were wielded by X, or are the epitome of Neo Arcadia propaganda.
Any particular reason Zero isn't just as viable? If the later-X-series games and the Zero series have one thing in common, it's that the whole multiple-primary-weapons shpiel kinda became Zero's thing. One could draw parallels between Dark Cross and Shield Boomerang, and the Frost Javelin and Triple Rod maybe.
-
*1-up sound*
I know, I know, necro-posting, but MM25 had a bit of new info on this one (see second quote-bit below)
I personally don't mind, as long as there's something to discuss.
We also pretty recently acquired this little tidbit:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/companions-through-life-and-death-time-and-again-the-story-of-inti-creates-and-mega-man (http://www.usgamer.net/articles/companions-through-life-and-death-time-and-again-the-story-of-inti-creates-and-mega-man)
"Capcom, the company itself, wanted to keep on creating the X series," says Aizu. "That’s the reason why both the X series and the Zero series ran in parallel. Our two teams had no communication with each other, so literally we would see the press releases and read them and be like, 'Oh... OK, this part is overlapping too much, so maybe we should change something,' or, 'Oh, our concepts are too far apart, so maybe we should make it a little closer to what they’re creating.'
"Those X games were not created by Inafune. He was working on the Battle Network games at the time. Maybe it's not appropriate for me to talk about this, since it's more of something Inafune should discuss himself, but my perspective as an outsider observing the situation is that it was kind of like he wanted to continue working on those side scrolling Mega Man games, but they were kind of taken away from him. So that’s why he started the Zero series."
"The main concept that we wanted to explore was Zero killing X," says Aizu. "We wanted to come up with something really sensational. There was something about Mega Man Zero at first that we felt wasn't quite right — it wasn't true to our idea of the character. So we tried to resolve that by coming up with this dramatic concept.
"Also, there's a manga series called Kikaider which really influenced me, and Inafune happened to like the concept, too. The Kikaider manga had an anime spin-off called Hakaider. There, the bad guy, Hakaider, becomes the main character and defeats the main character of Kikaider. That struck me as really sensational and stuck in my mind, and that's what inspired me to take the direction we did with Mega Man Zero.
"Originally, Inafune had simply requested a game built around both Zero and X. But I wanted to do something with more impact, so that’s why I came up with this idea."
Surprisingly, Aizu says, this radical rethinking of the series' main cast was met with enthusiasm by the Mega Man fans at Inti Creates — though not everyone shared their feelings.
"Within the team, there was no resistance at all," he recalls. "In fact, right up until we went to master the game, the plot played out with Zero defeating X.
"However, Capcom as a company... it didn’t serve well for the company to have a series in which X is the hero and then another title where that same hero gets killed off. And so because of that, at the very, very, very end, like right before we sent the game to be manufactured, we had to change it so that the X that Zero kills was actually a copy. We didn’t have time to change the game play, though, so just the story changed slightly."
I've said it before, and Inti basically admitted it themselves in MMZOCW, but I'll say it again: The lack of "22XX" references from Z2 onward is much more justly laid at Inticreates' feet, what with the Dark Elf's origins and such, than it is at any notion of trying to make room for the later X-series titles.
I'm inclined to think that both the X and ZERO side of development kept details intentionally vague in order to avoid stepping on each other's toes while maintaining their own creative freedom.
Without communication between the teams, that was the best either could've done at the time. It's not until after each series concluded / went on hiatus, that the developers have begun to work out the remaining kinks (see ZERO collection timeline).
Command Mission is a squeeze, but I don't think there's any reason it NEEDS to be an alternate.
Once upon a time I would've had the same opinion. However, if we take every current tidbit of information at face value, there's really no other conclusion to be made:
-21XX, X-series)
-22XX, ZERO-series
-Elf Wars 50 years after X6 Zero End.
-ZERO-series 100 years after Elf Wars.
No matter what, this places the Elf Wars at late 21XX, long before Command Mission's 22XX of 2202+. And as they say in Ace Attorney: [objection!] That's a contradiction.
Any particular reason Zero isn't just as viable? If the later-X-series games and the Zero series have one thing in common, it's that the whole multiple-primary-weapons shpiel kinda became Zero's thing. One could draw parallels between Dark Cross and Shield Boomerang, and the Frost Javelin and Triple Rod maybe.
The primary reason Zero isn't as viable is his continued absence from the Maverick Wars as a Maverick Hunter following X6. One may count Elf Wars as part of the Maverick Wars and forcibly allow it, but that's not the spirit with which the original Shining Arms concept was created. Back then (in RTRZ, pre-Z2) there were no Elf Wars for Zero to have fought in.
-
The bit on Zero killing X is quite an elaboration from the MMZOCW tidbit. I wonder, though, about this:
"We didn’t have time to change the game play, though, so just the story changed slightly."
Can't help but be curious about Original X having a Seraph form. But mental note for the next time we have a "submit questions to ask Inti guys" topic: What was the original scenario for Zero obtaining the Z-Saber in Z1?
Once upon a time I would've had the same opinion. However, if we take every current tidbit of information at face value, there's really no other conclusion to be made:
-21XX, X-series)
-22XX, ZERO-series
-Elf Wars 50 years after X6 Zero End.
-ZERO-series 100 years after Elf Wars.
I have yet to see "22XX, Zero-series" referenced in any post-Z1 material, sans the above-mentioned question to Higurashi, who is not part of the Zero-series crew. So the communication gap casts a doubt on that one. The fact that Zero Collection for all its clarifications did not bring actual century labels to the table was always something that struck me as odd, it seems to me they're deliberately leaving that one open. But I suppose that could just be unwillingness to commit to which century Elf Wars falls into.
I would say it is "highly unlikely, but not impossible" for Zero's creation and Command Mission to take place within the same less-than-49-year-window, which is where the arithmatic lands us if Command Mission is in fact prior to Zero being researched (this would require Wily cheating death well before Zero was actually built, and Cain using exceedingly old software to access X's capsule warning; beyond that I think we're covered). You could also try to dodge an AU by placing Command Mission during Elf Wars, although that would leave the two series stepping on each other's toes quite a bit.
I get the impression that Command Mission was just the "Do what feels awesome and figure it out later" approach. Talking about it is like talking about a Zelda game in terms of timeline placement.
The primary reason Zero isn't as viable is his continued absence from the Maverick Wars as a Maverick Hunter following X6. One may count Elf Wars as part of the Maverick Wars and forcibly allow it, but that's not the spirit with which the original Shining Arms concept was created. Back then (in RTRZ, pre-Z2) there were no Elf Wars for Zero to have fought in.
Given that the Z-Saber itself is one of them, I consider it virtually impossible for the Elf Wars to NOT impact the story/distribution of the Shining Arms.
-
Can't help but be curious about Original X having a Seraph form. But mental note for the next time we have a "submit questions to ask Inti guys" topic: What was the original scenario for Zero obtaining the Z-Saber in Z1?
Cyber-Elf X is quite integral to the plot. Though I guess most of his roles would be substituted, there's a ton of depth lost along the way.
I have yet to see "22XX, Zero-series" referenced in any post-Z1 material, sans the above-mentioned question to Higurashi, who is not part of the Zero-series crew. So the communication gap casts a doubt on that one.
There's certainly a distinct ambiguity. It does seem, however, that 22XX was always the intent, even if Inti's not quite willing to cement it. If not ZERO in 22XX, then Elf Wars at the very least.
this would require Wily cheating death well before Zero was actually built
I've always felt "1XX years ago" was mislabeled on that entry of the timeline, but you never know.
I get the impression that Command Mission was just the "Do what feels awesome and figure it out later" approach. Talking about it is like talking about a Zelda game in terms of timeline placement.
Which is pretty much why they made it an AU to begin with.
Really, if they wanted to avoid contradictions with the ZERO-series, they should've just placed it in 21XX instead of 22XX.
Given that the Z-Saber itself is one of them, I consider it virtually impossible for the Elf Wars to NOT impact the story/distribution of the Shining Arms.
X is assumed to have used the Z-saber during the remaining Maverick Wars. While more so a product of X5's ending than X6's, that does not invalidate the possibility of X having wielded every single one (Japanese and its lack of plural...). The Elf Wars are simply not required for the distribution of the Shining Arms, even if they are a viable option.