RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Topic started by: Waifu on July 16, 2009, 07:30:18 PM
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I have a question on mega man graphics and sprites, why is it the character sprites look largely the same while the backgrounds appear different. I may not be a sprite or graphics expert bu to be honest, I feel as though that I am playing the same game over and over with different sprites with Mega Man (in all series) looking largely the same although that is not to say that they are all the same but still it feels as though they are mostly the same. Can anyone enlighten me on the graphics side of Mega Man?
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(http://lol.rockmanpm.com/sprites-rockman.gif) (http://lol.rockmanpm.com/sprites-forte.gif)
(http://lol.rockmanpm.com/sprites-x.gif) (http://lol.rockmanpm.com/sprites-zero.gif)
(http://lol.rockmanpm.com/sprites-zerozx.gif)
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Because they're the exact same characters over and over again?
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Is it possible that you have missed out on the fact that this is a franchise?
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Not really, it just some of the earlier games in Classic and X used almost the same X and Mega Man sprites again, the same X and Zero sprite in X4-X6 and the same Zero sprite in the Zero series.
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The sprite artists don't want to believe they didn't get it right the first time!
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Good job noticing that on your own
It's called a sequel for the same platform. Not many companies redo all the artwork from game to game if they're in the same console.
The only exception were the sprite changes in EXE4-6
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Really? I thought it was more common to change the sprites every game. Like, Mario looked different in all 3 Super Mario Bros., Kuros looked different in all 3 Wizards & Warriors, Bimmy and Jimmy looked different in all 3 Double Dragons...
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Mario looked different in all 3 Super Mario Bros.
Bad example.
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I don't see why. Can you explain please? (I would have thought Double Dragon would be the worse example for having started in the arcade.)
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Mario's not the best example, say, like Sonic the hedgehog. The tiles of the first zone (emerald hill) and sprites of Dr Robotnik and Sonic didin't at least change until the third game, due to a change in the art style of thier official artwork, OR that is until the artist who made that drawing style and abandoned ship when the games came out.
It's all about keeping up with the reference art when making a sprite. I've done at least several attempts to make a decent art style out of anime but I found out it's a little harder to attempt without an art book, but that's not the case.
Mario's sprite only changes because of the scenarios depend on the style on which he's in. SMB2USA's sprites shared the SMB3 style, but still looked diffrent. Again, it's all about the artist who makes the concepts, the artwork, and of course the sprite ref to the spriters. I can say, spriting without paint or some form of art program leaves you in a cinch and now you are stuck starving inbetween the mother hawk and the eggs that look like they are hatching and you want the eggs and you don't want to upset the mother because she is nearby.
Okay, that was an exaggeration, but let's say without reference art and theme, the sprite and style's gonna look out of place, belive me.
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I don't see why. Can you explain please?
Because the first two Mario's are identical. Unless you count that Mario game that wasn't originally a Mario game.
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While it was Doki Doki panic originally, it does not change a fact that Mario got three sprites for three games. After all, there was a Mario. Right?
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While it was Doki Doki panic originally, it does not change a fact that Mario got three sprites for three games. After all, there was a Mario. Right?
A sprite for each scenario, I always say. SMB2JP is just SMB1, but harder, and I was thinking about that when I made that "rant".
Say, Sonic the Hedgehog 1 & 2 did share similar style, but the stages and bosses were diffrent. That's because I think the origional artist was on board with them at that time.
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SMB2JP is just SMB1, but harder,
Oh, THAT Super Mario Brothers 2. Yeah, that one's more of an extra level pack, not a true sequel. And that shows why you need to change the graphics for everything every game: so you can tell them apart! It's easier to remember when the character traded his red shoes for white shoes than to remember which game had the train level. Even if the reference art never changes, you should keep tweaking the sprites to make them match the reference art better.
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While it was Doki Doki panic originally, it does not change a fact that Mario got three sprites for three games. After all, there was a Mario. Right?
But since the sprite style was originally developed for Doki Doki Panic instead of Mario, it's a bad example of sprites changing with each game. And Mario3 is in a different style simply because by that time, the true graphical potential of the NES became clear.
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I still think Mario 3 could have added blue overalls and white eyeballs to the Mario brothers.
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They could have if they were interested in sprite overlaps the way MegaMan did. Nintendo evidently just didn't care to.
Part of that may have been unwillingness to push the NES's limit on number of moving objects on-screen, though. If you go over the limit it causes flickering, which Nintendo may have been trying to avoid. Might also explain why One-Up Mushrooms vanished if you had too many on-screen.
Oh, THAT Super Mario Brothers 2. Yeah, that one's more of an extra level pack, not a true sequel. And that shows why you need to change the graphics for everything every game: so you can tell them apart! It's easier to remember when the character traded his red shoes for white shoes than to remember which game had the train level. Even if the reference art never changes, you should keep tweaking the sprites to make them match the reference art better.
The tile set of SMB2J was switched, so actually it is quite easy to tell them apart (this doesn't show in All-Stars or Deluxe; download the original on Wii's VC to see what I mean). The player sprites are still identical, though.
And yeah, SMB2U doesn't count. Adding Mario to it was a U.S. thing, not to mention the sprite style simply wouldn't have worked. It clashes too heavily.
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Or they just didn't like the color blue anymore.
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Didn't Rockman end up mostly blue because it was the color the widest variety the NES pallete or some stupid story like that?
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I have a question on mega man graphics and sprites, why is it the character sprites look largely the same while the backgrounds appear different. I may not be a sprite or graphics expert bu to be honest, I feel as though that I am playing the same game over and over with different sprites with Mega Man (in all series) looking largely the same although that is not to say that they are all the same but still it feels as though they are mostly the same. Can anyone enlighten me on the graphics side of Mega Man?
Am I stupid for getting lost while trying to follow what G tries to say here?
I mean, I have the basic undestanding, but... uh...
Or maybe I'm just tired?
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Am I stupid for getting lost while trying to follow what G tries to say here?
I mean, I have the basic undestanding, but... uh...
Or maybe I'm just tired?
I was commenting on the Classic 1-6, MMX 1-3, MMX 4-6 and MMZ 1-4 sprites.
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They changed Zero's sprites in X6 and also in Z4 for those respective series you know. The overworld sprites were also changed in BN4. So, it does happen occasionally.
Consistancy is one of the series' strong points. It also saves time in terms of development. I always liked that MM's sprite has stayed the same ... heck, it's even used in branding now, it's become so recognisable to video game fans.
Also, MM games get made more often than Mario games.
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I always liked that MM's sprite has stayed the same...
High five bro!
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High five bro!
8D 8D
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I dunno, maybe they should have redesigned MegaRockMan to be a bit bigger for the third game, since that's when EVERY robot master was bigger than him, and he looked like a shrimp with little detail in comparison.
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I still think Mario 3 could have added blue overalls and white eyeballs to the Mario brothers.
The NES is only capable of displaying a sprite with 3 colors + 1 transparency. Now, you could get away with it with a simple trick where you would split an object up into multiple sprites that each used their own palette line like in the Mega Man games. However, the way the Super Mario Brothers 3 sprites were design, didn't make this a considerable option.
Back on topic here.
The sprites for Mega Man stayed the same most likely because well...they were fine. There was really no need to redraw them over and over again. They represented the character well. In the Mario games, the sprites were redrawn as the developers clearly got more use to the system. Just look at Mario 1 and Mario 3. Big ass difference as they added much more noticeable details to the sprite to better match the artwork. In the case of Sonic the Hedgehog, at least from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2, the sprites had to had a bit of a touch up in order to make room for Tails' shared palette line with Sonic. If they're going to touch up the sprites, might as well improve on the animations while they're at it eh?
Now, while the Mega Man sprites themselves did not change overtime, you should definitely pay attention to the rest of the game. After each NES game, the backgrounds were largely improved, animations for enemies and other objects were much more fluid, and the art design of some levels were now much more colorful than the games before it. Even the boss art improved immensely. Take a look at Mega Man 6. Mega Man 2 doesn't even hold a candle to it in terms of visuals.
Basically, what it comes down to is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Not sure whether or not this is related, but... A friend of mine on DA called Elmind did this blinkie for me:
(http://furthiahigh.concessioncomic.com/forum/images/avatars/12649407704a5c09bb4dc82.gif)
In fact, he's done several characters, like Rockman.EXE, Louis from Left 4 Dead, and Even a Spy sapping his Avatar being chased by an engineer!
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Now, while the Mega Man sprites themselves did not change overtime, you should definitely pay attention to the rest of the game. After each NES game, the backgrounds were largely improved, animations for enemies and other objects were much more fluid, and the art design of some levels were now much more colorful than the games before it. Even the boss art improved immensely. Take a look at Mega Man 6. Mega Man 2 doesn't even hold a candle to it in terms of visuals.
But that just makes 1's Mega Man stand out even worse in front of all those more advanced graphics. Why is it that only the main characters couldn't improve?
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Natural selection!
Mega Man made everything go boom, forcing it to evolve. Whereas Mega Man didn't need to evolve because he was already better than the rest!
So the sprite stays as it is!
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They added some pixels on the back of his head.
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Megaman got two, maybe three black line pixels added to his head in the 4th game I believe, maybe the 5th, that only showed when he was climbing ladders.
... '>.>
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But that just makes 1's Mega Man stand out even worse in front of all those more advanced graphics. Why is it that only the main characters couldn't improve?
It didn't stand out. The character sprite was still very colorful, more colorful than your average vidya NES game hero. If anything, the rest of the game caught up to him.
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They added some pixels on the back of his head.
Yay! That makes it all better.
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The thing about the Megaman series is that it's, essentially, the same basic game over and over again. It's fans tend to love it while it's critics find that as it's biggest flaw.
Capcom's biggest mistake is always releasing too many Megaman games much too fast.
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Yeah, I get the feeling that most people would have liked the NES games, the X series, and the Battle Network series better if Capcom had released about half as many games in the same time span, giving each MegaMan game the polish of two games.
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Unfortunately time between releases doesn't always result in more polish. X5 was a long wait and the result was the most ill-thought-out power-up system the series has ever seen.
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Sure, maybe they do better releasing a whole lot of sequels close together with only minor differences in the gameplay, so they can't ruin too much from game to game.
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Unless I'm mistaken, the whole reason SMB2USA is how it is (an official modification of Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic by Nintendo)
is because SMB2JP (known otherwise as Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels) was too similiar to the original SMB. Actually, I think that makes SMB2 the first hack!
Anyways, you don't change a graphic style in the middle of a series unless you upgrade hardware. SMB2 and 3 were on better cartridges (I think) thank SMB1, so the graphic could afford to look better. I think Capcom kept the same graphics through the first 6 for a sense of continuity, and to avoid hassle in making him look better. If you go on to different hardware, graphics can change. Look at MM6>MM7. Better looking, eh? X3->X4. Better looking. Because the hardware is better, the sprites are better. Plus, why keep changing art styles when you've mastered one already? Just keep it going, and keep a sense of sameness in the game world.
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japanese SMB2 was a better romhack than SMB2US was.
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Anyways, you don't change a graphic style in the middle of a series unless you upgrade hardware. SMB2 and 3 were on better cartridges (I think) thank SMB1, so the graphic could afford to look better. I think Capcom kept the same graphics through the first 6 for a sense of continuity, and to avoid hassle in making him look better. If you go on to different hardware, graphics can change. Look at MM6>MM7. Better looking, eh? X3->X4. Better looking. Because the hardware is better, the sprites are better.
True and False.
They could have easily done the Mario 3 visual style in Mario 1. Why didn't they? Most likely lack of experience working on the hardware. The difference in cart size had little to do with it. Take a look at Rockman and Forte on the SNES. Same animation quality as the Playstation/Saturn Mega Man 8. Backgrounds weren't as detailed or colorful, but that's mainly due to the much more limited color palette and lack of vram when compared to the CD brothers.
Here's another example. Notice how fluid the Sonic Advance 2 sprites are on the Gameboy Advance? That can easily be done on the original SEGA Genesis with uncompressed graphics. The quality of the sprite will even be the same since it also uses a 15 color palette.
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Yeah, seems like it was mainly Big Mario who was totally redrawn for 3. Most other sprites looked pretty similar to before, only with the addition of those black outlines that were just catching on in video games in the past couple of years. Super Mario Bros. 1 still had to help colored backgrounds catch on so that black outlines would have a purpose!
(I was just saying before that the navy blue outlines from Super Mario Bros. 2 worked pretty well, too. It stood out from black backgrounds, and a large mass of it made a good color for the overalls, but it also looked dark enough against the blue skies. Mario with a tan, though, that was a little odd.)
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Everything in Mario 3 was redrawn.
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Yeah, but in most cases just enough to fit in the outlines!
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Yeah, but in most cases just enough to fit in the outlines!
I...don't understand what you're saying here. All the art was redrawn, and not just for the purpose of black outlines. They were drawn to be much smaller than the art seen in Mario 1.
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But the Goombas looked bigger to me.
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But the Goombas looked bigger to me.
I assure you, they're much smaller. Not to mention they have an addition of a mouth.
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I know the Micro-Goombas are small... Is that what you mean?
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(http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1100/comp.gif)
(It seems I was wrong in my original statement. Only one enemy is directly taken from Mario 1)
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on the left side is the boomerang guy and on the right is a hammer brother!?
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They're palette swapped. It doesn't make a difference.
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Unless I'm mistaken, the whole reason SMB2USA is how it is (an official modification of Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic by Nintendo)
is because SMB2JP (known otherwise as Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels) was too similiar to the original SMB. Actually, I think that makes SMB2 the first hack!
wrong, the japanese SMB2 wasnt released in america beause of its difficulty, nintendo tough that the game will not b marketable for the american market, wich was focused on children at the time, so they dont wanted to release a very difficult game, so insteas they took Doki Doki Panic and replace the cast with mario and company, and do some other modifications, also, Doki Doki was created by miyamoto as well
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And then somehow a lot of Doki Doki Panic stuff made it into the Mario canon. Except Mouser, even though he's cool, like Blues. Wart didn't make it into Mario either, but that's because he found his way to Koholint and assisted Link in his dream adventure.
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once again proving that mario's enemies are overall nice guys.
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And then somehow a lot of Doki Doki Panic stuff made it into the Mario canon. Except Mouser, even though he's cool, like Blues. Wart didn't make it into Mario either, but that's because he found his way to Koholint and assisted Link in his dream adventure.
Wart did what? I thought he got killed by vegetables?
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Yeah, but most final bosses only stay dead for a year or so.
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Actually...
Wart was a dream. That's why he was on Coholint. Because that was a dream too.
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No, Wart is real, and the real world is a dream!
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Shy guys are Realz! And Bob-ombs too! You can´t deny it!
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No, Wart is real, and the real world is a dream!
Oh warts are indeed real.