RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: HokutoNoBen on July 09, 2010, 04:46:02 AM
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Sorry for those who were really getting hot n bothered over that announcement from Capcom Europe's tweet. But this one seems to be more "legit"...
Thursday, July 22 - 4:45-5:45 Capcom 2010 and Beyond!— See the latest trailers and get the inside scoop on all of Capcom’s most highly anticipated games for 2010 and beyond: Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, Sengoku Basara, Okamiden, Bionic Commando Rearmed 2, Ghost Trick, Dead Rising 2, and more. On top of all that, hear details on an exciting new game announcement by Capcom legend Keiji Inafune, the father of Mega Man! Room 6BCF
comic-con (http://"http://www.comic-con.org/cci/cci10_prog_thu.php")
thanks Siliconera (http://"http://www.siliconera.com/2010/07/08/keiji-inafune-announcing-new-game-at-comic-con/")
Capcom and Udon to lift the lid off of a new Vampire/Darkstalkers game? Mega Man Universe to be showcased at last?
Couple that with Ono being at EVO this weekend, and it could stand to be a most interesting turn of events set for these next few weeks.
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Something tells me "new game announcement" doesn't necessarily mean "new game"
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Something tells me "new game announcement" doesn't necessarily mean "new game"
I don't see a reason for it not to be a new game.
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This sounds interesting.
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Worst case scenario: Rockman OSS 2 or NA announcement for the original OSS (ok, maybe the former wouldn't be that bad done properly)
Best case scenario: Legends 3, Megaman Universe or revival of *insert your favorite old Capcom franchise here*
Best case scenario for me that there's no way it's gonna happen: CvS3
Not gonna get too hyped though.
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It's comicon. Obviously, Capcom's announcement will be about something the western audience likes, as opposed to a japanese title that's more niche.
Although it'd be awesome if Inafune stood in front of the audience and went "I am hereby announcing... a new game!" and then just walked away. That'd sure fulfill the promise. =P
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Or maybe he'll just start a new game on battle network.
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Something tells me "new game announcement" doesn't necessarily mean "new game"
Well, they gotta start showing something. As of right now, Capcom didn't show anything truly new at E3 (unless those 3DS games/port concepts count), and as of right now, their fall/winter line-up is looking pretty dry with only Dead Rising 2 and Sengoku BASARA 3.
Plus, Jun Takeuchi pretty much teased as such.
"This year's Capcom is very interesting. The titles we'll announce in the future will surprise many people. We'll be announcing this year the things that Inafune (Keiji) and I have been working on over the past year."
- http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/27/takeuchi_re6/
Well...time to get cracking on that, I say. This is the second to last big public event that Capcom can take advantage of, with TGS being next...
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It's comicon. Obviously, Capcom's announcement will be about something the western audience likes, as opposed to a japanese title that's more niche.
Although it'd be awesome if Inafune stood in front of the audience and went "I am hereby announcing... a new game!" and then just walked away. That'd sure fulfill the promise. =P
Sadly Flash might be right. Which sucks honestly... most westernfags don't care for Legends. Hell, most people don't care for Legends at all.
This is a sad day... maybe.
I guess I await for Capcom to make me cry soon.
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Sadly Flash might be right. Which sucks honestly... most westernfags don't care for Legends. Hell, most people don't care for Legends at all.
Maybe, maybe not. But I'm thinking that at this point in time, Inafune might have been afforded the opportunity to work on something that he really wants to work on (he's even hinted at such back at Captivate), following being able to provide a number of things that made his overlords at Capcom happy. Because hey, even the head of Capcom R&D has to pay his dues. If that much is true, then worrying about what the West thinks may be able to be put on the back-burner. After all, if he makes a good enough game well enough, people will set their watches to it.
It's pretty much the same thing that goes along with Ono and his Darkstalkers idea, as well. The Vampire series definitely didn't catch on in the West, thanks to a deadly, yet vanilla-flavored combo of Capcom's over-marketing of Fighting games in the 90s and American apathy in the face of Marvel and SFAlpha. However, even as a new Darkstalkers game definitely doesn't seem likely to be any where near SF4 or the upcoming MvC3's mainstream success, it could stand to be a nice answer to those who want a decidedly more "hardcore-catering" fighting game from Capcom (like myself), at the worst.
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DC vs. Capcom!
Bank on it!
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DC vs. Capcom!
Bank on it!
OH GOD I COULD FAP TO THAT IDEA. If the companies weren't mad at each other, imagine Capcom making a Marvel vs DC. SO GLORIOUS.
Maybe, maybe not. But I'm thinking that at this point in time, Inafune might have been afforded the opportunity to work on something that he really wants to work on (he's even hinted at such back at Captivate), following being able to provide a number of things that made his overlords at Capcom happy. Because hey, even the head of Capcom R&D has to pay his dues. If that much is true, then worrying about what the West thinks may be able to be put on the back-burner. After all, if he makes a good enough game well enough, people will set their watches to it.
It's pretty much the same thing that goes along with Ono and his Darkstalkers idea, as well. The Vampire series definitely didn't catch on in the West, thanks to a deadly, yet vanilla-flavored combo of Capcom's over-marketing of Fighting games in the 90s and American apathy in the face of Marvel and SFAlpha. However, even as a new Darkstalkers game definitely doesn't seem likely to be any where near SF4 or the upcoming MvC3's mainstream success, it could stand to be a nice answer to those who want a decidedly more "hardcore-catering" fighting game from Capcom (like myself), at the worst.
...if he did, it wouldn't be on Comic-Con. It has to be a mainstream, western-appealing title.
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Legends 3, done by the guy who did Bayonetta...
I don't know...
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Legends 3, done by the guy who did Bayonetta...
I don't know...
That's like telling Peter Gabriel to go apologise to Phil Collins. =P Not gonna happen.
Heck, I hope it IS Legends 3, however remote the possibility. Then everyone could shut up about it. XD
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DC vs. Capcom!
Bank on it!
Do you know how hard you just made me? What are you gonna do about this, PB?
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Legends 3? HA HA HA!
Not gonna happen.
Tough, it can't be too much of a stretch to say it might be... i just might be some other new MEGA GAME.
X9 : DDDDD
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If it WAS DC vs Capcom... I'd probably quit the game at this point.
Just ugh.
Anyway, I'm gonna bank on Ben... Being hopeful has brought me good things in my time... so here goes nothing.
Atleast X9 lolol... or something else that would be worth my time. Hell, I'd even take ZXABCD at this point.
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If it WAS DC vs Capcom... I'd probably quit the game at this point.
Just ugh.
Why?
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Sadly Flash might be right. Which sucks honestly... most westernfags don't care for Legends. Hell, most people don't care for Legends at all.
Well, in the case of Legends, I believe it is in fact underrated the world over. However, in terms of non-turn-based MegaMan, I do believe the western audience has been a bit more supportive than the Japanese. Recall what happened with ZX Advent. Inafune has a bit of a record in expressing distaste for Japanese gaming trends; maybe he's been working to convince the rest of Capcom that they need to look at the rest of the world?
Of course, an announcement for western audiences could also simply refer to a localization. "New" to people who do not possess the internet (when will gaming companies stop pretending that region locks accomplish anything?). That would suck, but it's equally possible.
I pretty much always have to hope for Legends 3, though. Hell, for the longest time I'd have been willing to take a handheld port of that damn cell phone game.
Atleast X9 lolol... or something else that would be worth my time. Hell, I'd even take ZXABCD at this point.
Given the "the next X will not be X9" statements allegedly referring to Online, I wouldn't be hopeful for X9 to arrive immediately in its wake.
ZX...would be nice. I dunno, I see a lot of potential in the series but also a lot of it that went wasted across both games. The titular model being so underwhelming is something I have a hard time forgiving, as is the lack of any option/unlockable to actually play as Vent/Aile in the sequel (A-Transing them does not cut it, sorry). Inti *REALLY* needs to redo their boss damage formulas, too, and back off from all those damn side-fetch-quests. And I really don't know what they were thinking with ZX1 trans-servers restoring health but not weapons, it kills any incentive to use the Big Four's charge attacks. I want the story to go on, for sure, but the game mechanics need to be revamped.
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I'm just going to wait and see what the news is about and not put my hopes up to much so I get dissapointed later...
Heres hoping for news on MMUniverse, New Darkstalkers or Breath of Fire 5...I can dream can't I.
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Well, in the case of Legends, I believe it is in fact underrated the world over. However, in terms of non-turn-based MegaMan, I do believe the western audience has been a bit more supportive than the Japanese. Recall what happened with ZX Advent. Inafune has a bit of a record in expressing distaste for Japanese gaming trends; maybe he's been working to convince the rest of Capcom that they need to look at the rest of the world?
Of course, an announcement for western audiences could also simply refer to a localization. "New" to people who do not possess the internet (when will gaming companies stop pretending that region locks accomplish anything?). That would suck, but it's equally possible.
I pretty much always have to hope for Legends 3, though. Hell, for the longest time I'd have been willing to take a handheld port of that damn cell phone game.
Given the "the next X will not be X9" statements allegedly referring to Online, I wouldn't be hopeful for X9 to arrive immediately in its wake.
ZX...would be nice. I dunno, I see a lot of potential in the series but also a lot of it that went wasted across both games. The titular model being so underwhelming is something I have a hard time forgiving, as is the lack of any option/unlockable to actually play as Vent/Aile in the sequel (A-Transing them does not cut it, sorry). Inti *REALLY* needs to redo their boss damage formulas, too, and back off from all those damn side-fetch-quests. And I really don't know what they were thinking with ZX1 trans-servers restoring health but not weapons, it kills any incentive to use the Big Four's charge attacks. I want the story to go on, for sure, but the game mechanics need to be revamped.
Legends is underrated because it's not as well-known as the rest of the Megaman games. It's probably (IMO) the least well-known of the Megaman series. It's a pretty fun game, but it's nothing incredible. The one thing it's got going for it, is that it's basically Megaman in 3D. (not stereoscopic, I mean basic 3D gameplay). And to work as a game, respectfully at least, it would have to ditch pretty much all of the aspects of its old controls, and revamp its entire gameplay. And make the dungeons less boring.
So it would essencially be a different game.
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So play a different game, and let the rest of us keep drooling. >U<
(Out of curiosity, how many Legends games have you played? There are different control tweaks in each one.)
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I've never been to comfortable with the controls in either Legends game. And for me personally, i felt that the lock-on feature was a little messy as well as the camera. None the less, it was still a very fun game. So if they were to make a new Legends, they would have to: fix the camera, have the lock-on targets transition smoothly from one enemy to the next, make the dungeons livelier, perhaps add more puzzle elements and give the controls a "pick up and play" feel.
and revamp its entire gameplay.
The gameplay itself was fine, it was just some of those design choices and somewhat messy controls that needs reworking.
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It's a shame, because I see how Legends' camera controls are perceived as unapproachable, but I actually grew quite fond of them. Once you adjust, it seamlessly fits constant manual camera control into gameplay, and that makes the whole experience a lot smoother, always watching the action from the direction you want without ever having to think about it, re-adjust your thumbs, whatever. I actually find myself missing it in other games, such as Mario Galaxy (YOU MAY NOT MOVE THE CAMERA UNTIL YOU COME TO A COMPLETE STOP, FOOLISH EARTHLING! Seriously, I want to reach through my TV screen and rip out that damn buzzer.). It's just not that instinctive to learn it in the first place. :\
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So play a different game, and let the rest of us keep drooling. >U<
(Out of curiosity, how many Legends games have you played? There are different control tweaks in each one.)
Oh, PLEASE. All of the time you've known me, you think I'm gonna stand and just watch a fanbase LIKE a game? =P
But to be honest, tank controls are outdated. Metroid Prime was the last game to use them decently, and that's because the directions were included in the analog stick. It didn't make looking around any easier, though. If a decent Legends 3 game is made, it's gonna be one of two things. Either it's gonna be a third-person shooter, with two analogs for moving and turning and MAYBE a lock-on button if you're easymodo, or it's gonna be a game where you run around freely like any platformer, and have a lock-on trigger. My money's on the latter, but I'd love for it to be the former. With no lock-on. It would drive the fans MAAAAAD. =P
Honestly, it would really work the way Other M is being done.
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Oh, PLEASE. All of the time you've known me, you think I'm gonna stand and just watch a fanbase LIKE a game? =P
But to be honest, tank controls are outdated.
This is what think is an understatement. I mean, honestly, unless the name of the game is "Resident Evil" and/or the game's director is Shinji Mikami, you're not likely going to get away with trying to market a game with tank controls to a mainstream-oriented audience. Hell, even the "core" Rockman fan base would likely have certain expectations of what a 3D game should be doing. So, I'm also a believer that a new DASH game would have to basically "re-invent itself" in order to capture what it couldn't the first time around.
Of course, on the other hand, part of me still operates by the theory that "Mega Man Universe" is indeed that "re-birth" of the DASH series. I'd be completely open to a game that continues in that same setting and utilizes the same characters, but Trigger himself will be doing new things, in a new surrounding and with possibly new powers altogether. It would be a fairly interesting if that is what Inafune implied when he said that the MT Framework engine was "originally constructed with a DASH game in mind" from the jump. 8D
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This is what think is an understatement. I mean, honestly, unless the name of the game is "Resident Evil" and/or the game's director is Shinji Mikami, you're not likely going to get away with trying to market a game with tank controls to a mainstream-oriented audience. Hell, even the "core" Rockman fan base would likely have certain expectations of what a 3D game should be doing. So, I'm also a believer that a new DASH game would have to basically "re-invent itself" in order to capture what it couldn't the first time around.
Of course, on the other hand, part of me still operates by the theory that "Mega Man Universe" is indeed that "re-birth" of the DASH series. I'd be completely open to a game that continues in that same setting and utilizes the same characters, but Trigger himself will be doing new things, in a new surrounding and with possibly new powers altogether. It would be a fairly interesting if that is what Inafune implied when he said that the MT Framework engine was "originally constructed with a DASH game in mind" from the jump. 8D
Resident Evil got away with it because it was essencially a simplified third person shooter with emphasis on the aiming. So everyone who was afraid of dual-analog aiming could enjoy a game with slow enemies where you popped out their heads one by one. And the controls worked well, the game was very fun because of that. Resi 5 managed to give us the second analog stick, but stupidly, still no movement while shooting.
I remember that one interview where Inafune said he'd love to make a Legends game with the Dead Rising engine. That would certainly be interesting. I'd love to see something like that. Maybe with Lost Planet controls?
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Personally, Legends would lose a lot of the charm if it became "another shooter" so in retrospect with what the gaming commodities are now these days... and going in line with what a certain Red Priest once said... "Maybe it would be better that we DON'T get a Legends 3"
Things have changed too much and expectations are retarded at this point. I suppose I'll return to my hovel and frown as I watch one of the few gaming series that I like, turn to mush. Feh.
I'll just wait and watch. Maybe toss in Megaman Classic Collections disc and enjoy the good old days again.
... I sound like Rez.
Per the question before: Because I honestly dislike DC to the max and after the god-awful creation of DC and Mortal Krapbat, I don't ever want to see anything DC oriented again. But that's a personal bias that doesn't really matter. But for the record, the one thing I hate more than Mortal Kombat IS DC.
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Personally, Legends would lose a lot of the charm if it became "another shooter" so in retrospect with what the gaming commodities are now these days... and going in line with what a certain Red Priest once said... "Maybe it would be better that we DON'T get a Legends 3"
Things have changed too much and expectations are retarded at this point. I suppose I'll return to my hovel and frown as I watch one of the few gaming series that I like, turn to mush. Feh.
I'll just wait and watch. Maybe toss in Megaman Classic Collections disc and enjoy the good old days again.
... I sound like Rez.
Per the question before: Because I honestly dislike DC to the max and after the god-awful creation of DC and Mortal Krapbat, I don't ever want to see anything DC oriented again. But that's a personal bias that doesn't really matter. But for the record, the one thing I hate more than Mortal Kombat IS DC.
So basically, it's like this. If Legends got an actually GOOD gameplay, playable by modern standards without its camera bullshit, fans would hate it? So that means there SHOULDN'T be a Legends 3?
Legends was a decent, but not incredible game series. It's pretty fun, but people love it because it's the only way to get halfway good 3D Megaman gameplay. That's no reason to have ridiculously big expectations over a series like that. And if it left on a cliffhanger, as people tell me, there SHOULD be a sequel. Because you don't just leave games like that. Plus, fans bitching about how their favorite things change while other people enjoy the new good stuff is something that I truly enjoy. So I would take a truly special delight in something like this.
DC-wise, I guess everybody's got their tastes. Your soul has not yet been touched by the gloriousness that is DC Comics. When it does, you shall be truly forgiven. Praise be to Kirby, for the Gospel of DC is for all his children. For it was Superman who saw that we were having a bad time with fiction, and died for our crimes. And on the third week after the shitty clone event that succeeded it, he rose from the dead. Praise be to Ellis, Morrison and Waid for blessing us with their works of awesome. As it has been, as it shall always be. In the name of the Supes, the Bats and the Wondy, Amen. And let no more bad writing curse our awesome works. Glory be to DC.
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Personally:
Marvel > DC. Well, mostly because I have plenty of Marvel comics, but it had it's fair share of oddities, like the alternate scenarios, for example, we have Spidey IN THE FUTURE. How cool is that? 8B
But eh, I'll just wait and see what comes crawling out of Inufaune's head.
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Personally, Legends would lose a lot of the charm if it became "another shooter" so in retrospect with what the gaming commodities are now these days... and going in line with what a certain Red Priest once said... "Maybe it would be better that we DON'T get a Legends 3"
To me, such an attitude doesn't even give a fair chance to the notion of "trying". I mean, have you seen the likes of Mikami's Vanquish? The game is basically as far removed from the "traditional shooter" as can be. People I know who had a chance to try it at E3 basically said it has more in common with the arcade shooters of old, because the game is so damn fast, and not like what else is on the market. The way Sam moves and utilizes his weaponry in that game could have been the ideal formula for a DASH game, in another time and place.
Again, I'm convinced that a good part of the reason why DASH didn't "catch on" back in the day, was because it had rather poor timing. Tank controls, for the first 3D entrant of a beloved franchise, in an era where Mario 64 had already set the "standard" for how the 3D Action Platformer should be done years prior? Is it really any wonder why the game got slammed quite a bit in that area alone? To me, it was a lost opportunity (especially since Inafune was planning for what would eventually be "Onimusha" at the same time). I mean, for all sakes and purposes, 3D Rockman could have done something to the effect of Kamiya's DMC a whole 3-4 years earlier, if only Inafune had that kind of foresight.
But in any case, what I want most of all is for, if Inafune does return to the franchise, to do more at least NOTICE what everybody else is doing, and then turn those ideas to make Mega Man unique. That's the kind of fundamental thinking that made the first Rockman game stand out amongst all the other dime-a-dozen 8-bit action-platformers back in the 80s, and certainly could make a 3D Rockman stand out now, too.
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Cultish obsession of DC aside... I'm not going to waste energy, mostly because the subject is already irritating.
Frankly, the only way I would be satisfied with (ANOTHER) a 3rd person shooter version of Legends is if it had some semblance of Lost Planet... which retains more character than a disembodied hand holding a gun. There is potential, but honestly, there was nothing wrong with Legends gameplay wise. I had absolutely no trouble playing the game, so I'm inclined to think people are batshit insane.
Then again, I've always been inclined to think this.
Mind you, I didn't love Megaman because it was a 3D Megaman that was great. I loved it because of the story and interesting take on a Megaman RPG-style game. It was different, it was a fresh taste of Megaman in my mouth. Something that hasn't really been since EXE and Command Missions. If it became a simple shooter... I think it would lose that charm, that is all.
And well Ben... I want to believe. Maybe you're right and maybe we'll get something worth our time. Maybe not. I think as long as the main stream is where it is now, things will just start to get worse and worse. Sadly, the way things are in pretty much ANY stream is that a lot of stuff is just rehashes or a previous idea given a new face... something we are all too well aware of in the Megaman franchise, but is prevalent in every franchise pretty much... it kinda kills my faith a bit. When things are "new" they reek of the stench of "Main Stream" and when things are reminiscent they reek of stale decay... But I guess the 3DS era and whatever else Nintendo throws my way will keep gaming alive a while more.
Maybe.
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Personally:
Marvel > DC. Well, mostly because I have plenty of Marvel comics, but it had it's fair share of oddities, like the alternate scenarios, for example, we have Spidey IN THE FUTURE. How cool is that? 8B
But eh, I'll just wait and see what comes crawling out of Inufaune's head.
Oh yeah, Spidey in the future. That was cool. I guess.
(http://www.stuffwelike.com/stuffwelike/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Batman_Beyond.jpg)
(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1600000/Batman-Beyond-batman-beyond-1656953-450-679.jpg)
Because DC totally doesn't have the best damn future incarnation of a superhero ever made, right? >_> Or even the Elseworlds? "What If?" <<<<<<<< DC Elseworlds. (Specially with stuff like Red Son, Gotham by Gaslight, Kingdom Come, Secret Identity...) I liked Marvels, but that's pretty much the only amazing alternate reality thingy I've seen from Marvel.
To me, such an attitude doesn't even give a fair chance to the notion of "trying". I mean, have you seen the likes of Mikami's Vanquish? The game is basically as far removed from the "traditional shooter" as can be. People I know who had a chance to try it at E3 basically said it has more in common with the arcade shooters of old, because the game is so damn fast, and not like what else is on the market. The way Sam moves and utilizes his weaponry in that game could have been the ideal formula for a DASH game, in another time and place.
Again, I'm convinced that a good part of the reason why DASH didn't "catch on" back in the day, was because it had rather poor timing. Tank controls, for the first 3D entrant of a beloved franchise, in an era where Mario 64 had already set the "standard" for how the 3D Action Platformer should be done years prior? Is it really any wonder why the game got slammed quite a bit in that area alone? To me, it was a lost opportunity (especially since Inafune was planning for what would eventually be "Onimusha" at the same time). I mean, for all sakes and purposes, 3D Rockman could have done something to the effect of Kamiya's DMC a whole 3-4 years earlier, if only Inafune had that kind of foresight.
But in any case, what I want most of all is for, if Inafune does return to the franchise, to do more at least NOTICE what everybody else is doing, and then turn those ideas to make Mega Man unique. That's the kind of fundamental thinking that made the first Rockman game stand out amongst all the other dime-a-dozen 8-bit action-platformers back in the 80s, and certainly could make a 3D Rockman stand out now, too.
AGREED. Make Megaman a symbol of quality again in actual non-2D games. Evolve the franchise as it needs to be. Make it awesome.
Cultish obsession of DC aside... I'm not going to waste energy, mostly because the subject is already irritating.
Frankly, the only way I would be satisfied with (ANOTHER) a 3rd person shooter version of Legends is if it had some semblance of Lost Planet... which retains more character than a disembodied hand holding a gun. There is potential, but honestly, there was nothing wrong with Legends gameplay wise. I had absolutely no trouble playing the game, so I'm inclined to think people are batshit insane.
Then again, I've always been inclined to think this.
Mind you, I didn't love Megaman because it was a 3D Megaman that was great. I loved it because of the story and interesting take on a Megaman RPG-style game. It was different, it was a fresh taste of Megaman in my mouth. Something that hasn't really been since EXE and Command Missions. If it became a simple shooter... I think it would lose that charm, that is all.
And well Ben... I want to believe. Maybe you're right and maybe we'll get something worth our time. Maybe not. I think as long as the main stream is where it is now, things will just start to get worse and worse. Sadly, the way things are in pretty much ANY stream is that a lot of stuff is just rehashes or a previous idea given a new face... something we are all too well aware of in the Megaman franchise, but is prevalent in every franchise pretty much... it kinda kills my faith a bit. When things are "new" they reek of the stench of "Main Stream" and when things are reminiscent they reek of stale decay... But I guess the 3DS era and whatever else Nintendo throws my way will keep gaming alive a while more.
Maybe.
Hatred of new things and mainstream stuff simply keeps you out of the good quality things that tend to come out. Granted, not everything is good, but gaming's getting better and better along the years. Controls get perfected so there's more options, and characters are more easily controllable. You might be able to play the game well, and I say the same thing about my most favorite game of all time, Shenmue. But I grant that its tank controls are a bit useless, and if a sequel ever comes out for it, I'd like them to improve the gameplay. There's nothing sacrilegious about that. Nothing bad about keeping up with the Joneses. It wouldn't lose its charm if it got easier controls. It would simply be BETTER. The first version didn't have better controls, because there weren't dual analogs back then (I think) so they had to make due with a camera. But it would have worked awesomely as a third person shooter. Or with Metroid Prime controls. It doesn't even have to use the second analog for you purists, why not give it a damn lock-on mechanism and make the character move freely? Seems to me you're just afraid of change and evolution. Things can't always be kept the way they are.
...and now I REALLY want to know what got you to hate DC so much. =P
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I'm not so much afraid of change so much so that I'm afraid of what changing things can mean at times. Changing gameplay can be acceptable, often what a game needs. But with change, comes greater change at times. And that change can start to embargo on things like story and presentation.
As for DC. The Flash is reason enough. YES, YOU. Because Flash can outrun anything. Time, gravity, death. Have you ever heard of someone who can outrun DEATH? The logic behind The Flash hurts my brain. IT HURTS. Makes me wanna fist someone up the butt.
Don't get me started on Superman behind a propaganda piece.
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"Your speed means nothing if it's death that you're running from..."
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I'm not so much afraid of change so much so that I'm afraid of what changing things can mean at times. Changing gameplay can be acceptable, often what a game needs. But with change, comes greater change at times. And that change can start to embargo on things like story and presentation.
As for DC. The Flash is reason enough. YES, YOU. Because Flash can outrun anything. Time, gravity, death. Have you ever heard of someone who can outrun DEATH? The logic behind The Flash hurts my brain. IT HURTS. Makes me wanna fist someone up the butt.
Don't get me started on Superman behind a propaganda piece.
You think they'd really change the story of a Megaman game? And of course the presentation will be different, it's years later. It'll be pretty, shiny and new. And Megaman will be huge, wield a machine gun, and he will be drawn by Rob Liefeld. And he will be fighting bad guys in a huge post-apocalyptic wasteland, with a semi-nude Roll in a bikini.
HAHAHAHA, You actually dislike a character because the character is TOO powerful? That's what makes DC stories so interesting to read. Because the stories are actually interesting enough to make TRUE challenges for the heroes, for them to overcome. Not just rely on cool-looking villains with random gimmicks. Read a Flash comic and see if he has it easy. Heroes like him use their power in creative ways to actually surpass their challenges. Yes, he can outrun death. And some anime characters can destroy universes or crap like that. DC logic can be followed, if you actually look stuff up.
And Superman? Propaganda piece? Every hero on the Golden Age was a propaganda piece. Heck, even in the Silver Age. But Superman has proven time and time again he's not just some kind of american symbol. He's a hero for everyone. He's the everyman, the all-powerful champion that actually is more human than us, because he does what's important, and never bends his morality. That's what's so great about the character. Heck, read All-Star Superman. Or the latest New Krypton arc, where he left Earth to rebuild his own planet. See if he's still a "propaganda piece" then. I gather you don't know much about DC, so you really shouldn't be saying you don't like it just because you don't like the concepts. I used to hate the DC concepts until I read them. Guy that runs fast? Guy who makes green objects of light? Those sounded lame. But the execution is amazing.
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You think they'd really change the story of a Megaman game? And of course the presentation will be different, it's years later. It'll be pretty, shiny and new. And Megaman will be huge, wield a machine gun, and he will be drawn by Rob Liefeld. And he will be fighting bad guys in a huge post-apocalyptic wasteland, with a semi-nude Roll in a bikini.
Ugh. This is exactly what I mean. THIS right here. Of course, you're most likely trolling me at this point.
It's like Bomberman Act Zero or whatever the [tornado fang] they call it. IT CEASED TO BE [chameleon sting]ing BOMBERMAN. It just looks like hardcore rehash bullshit.
Excuse me while I drown out your post with repeated bashings of my skull.
HAHAHAHA, You actually dislike a character because the character is TOO powerful? That's what makes DC stories so interesting to read. Because the stories are actually interesting enough to make TRUE challenges for the heroes, for them to overcome. Not just rely on cool-looking villains with random gimmicks. Read a Flash comic and see if he has it easy. Heroes like him use their power in creative ways to actually surpass their challenges. Yes, he can outrun death. And some anime characters can destroy universes or crap like that. DC logic can be followed, if you actually look stuff up.
And Superman? Propaganda piece? Every hero on the Golden Age was a propaganda piece. Heck, even in the Silver Age. But Superman has proven time and time again he's not just some kind of american symbol. He's a hero for everyone. He's the everyman, the all-powerful champion that actually is more human than us, because he does what's important, and never bends his morality. That's what's so great about the character. Heck, read All-Star Superman. Or the latest New Krypton arc, where he left Earth to rebuild his own planet. See if he's still a "propaganda piece" then. I gather you don't know much about DC, so you really shouldn't be saying you don't like it just because you don't like the concepts. I used to hate the DC concepts until I read them. Guy that runs fast? Guy who makes green objects of light? Those sounded lame. But the execution is amazing.
Eh, It's not an issue of overpowered that bothers me. It is a lack of logical logic. I can't logically wrap my brain around something that can run so fast that it becomes invincible. Hell, I even go as far to ask how his internal workings don't collapse on himself. But maybe I give it too much though. As for Anime... well, if you know me, you know I hate TTGL which is a fine example of horrible overpowered idiocy. Again, never liked Superman, no matter how much of a chance I gave him. I even tried that Smallville stuff... which didn't even feel like Superman. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing. But eh...
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Ultraguy Odyssey IV.
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Oh yeah, Spidey in the future. That was cool. I guess.
(http://www.stuffwelike.com/stuffwelike/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Batman_Beyond.jpg)
(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1600000/Batman-Beyond-batman-beyond-1656953-450-679.jpg)
Because DC totally doesn't have the best damn future incarnation of a superhero ever made, right? >_> Or even the Elseworlds? "What If?" <<<<<<<< DC Elseworlds. (Specially with stuff like Red Son, Gotham by Gaslight, Kingdom Come, Secret Identity...) I liked Marvels, but that's pretty much the only amazing alternate reality thingy I've seen from Marvel.
Batman's the only thing I like about DC, I'll let that slide. What I've read (and watched), things can easily spiral out of control in most DC comics, movies, and shows, Marvel had a civil war, but it never had to get A SECOND EARTH to participate in a war... and Marvel has Deadpool.
*ahem* back on the subject of the hidden game please.
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Oh, PLEASE. All of the time you've known me, you think I'm gonna stand and just watch a fanbase LIKE a game? =P
Touche.
But to be honest, tank controls are outdated. Metroid Prime was the last game to use them decently, and that's because the directions were included in the analog stick. It didn't make looking around any easier, though. If a decent Legends 3 game is made, it's gonna be one of two things. Either it's gonna be a third-person shooter, with two analogs for moving and turning and MAYBE a lock-on button if you're easymodo, or it's gonna be a game where you run around freely like any platformer, and have a lock-on trigger. My money's on the latter, but I'd love for it to be the former. With no lock-on. It would drive the fans MAAAAAD. =P
It's amusing, hearing the thoughts of how a MegaMan sequel should handle from somebody who doesn't actually like MegaMan.
I don't know how any gamer worth their thumbs can stand the dual-analogue system, leaving only shoulder buttons actually usable. It's a very unnatural control setup to me. But you don't see me crawling up the ass of.....well, whatever non-Wii FPS is all the rage these days. This would be like if some traditional fighter fan was bitching about how Smash should be more like......*remembers Fox Only/Final Destination* Nevermind.
Yeah, what can I say. I don't really care about "hardcore" shooters. The only reason I even like Goldeneye is for the infinite dual rocket launchers cheat. >w<
MegaMan at its core is not a shooter, but a platformer that happens to include shooting as your attack method (and NOBODY wants to see it turn out like Shadow The Hedgehog). That means in 3D you need either manual camera control or a lock-on. Preferably the latter if you work under the assumption that enemies are not gracious enough to wait until they're on the same horizontal axis as you before attacking (however X7 wrecked this by leaving the lock-on fully automated...even in 2D, where it shouldn't have existed in the first place).
I even tried that Smallville stuff... which didn't even feel like Superman. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing. But eh...
I happen to actually like Smallville, except for two things. One, Clark being unable to fly is no longer believable after High School graduation, which was 4 years ago. Two, Season 8. It somehow found a way to undo every meaningful thing that ever happened, along with copping out of any buildup that was going on towards an actual fight during the finale. Seriously, you go from 7 to 9, you miss NOTHING, except Clark has a time-travelling ring and Jimmy Olsen is actually Jimmy Olsen's older now-dead brother (well, "Henry", we'll miss you; next time use your [dark hold] little brother who couldn't even be bothered to show up at your wedding as a lead pipe shield).
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Ugh. This is exactly what I mean. THIS right here. Of course, you're most likely trolling me at this point.
It's like Bomberman Act Zero or whatever the [tornado fang] they call it. IT CEASED TO BE [chameleon sting]ing BOMBERMAN. It just looks like hardcore rehash bullshit.
Excuse me while I drown out your post with repeated bashings of my skull.
Eh, It's not an issue of overpowered that bothers me. It is a lack of logical logic. I can't logically wrap my brain around something that can run so fast that it becomes invincible. Hell, I even go as far to ask how his internal workings don't collapse on himself. But maybe I give it too much though. As for Anime... well, if you know me, you know I hate TTGL which is a fine example of horrible overpowered idiocy. Again, never liked Superman, no matter how much of a chance I gave him. I even tried that Smallville stuff... which didn't even feel like Superman. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing. But eh...
I'm trolling you because there's no way Capcom would ever let that happen to Megaman. Or Inafune, for that matter. Megaman is deeply treasured by both fans and the company. The company are a bunch of jackasses who think they can sell repeated expansions of the same game as sequels, and people will buy them. They feed fans what fans want. And they were the very first company to simply make what fans truly wanted, a new 8-bit game of the original series. They KNOW how to please old-school people. They're the one company who puts up with their incessant bullshit and makes the impossible possible on that respect. Plus, this isn't the 90's. That kind of crap doesn't happen, and Capcom, unlike Hudson, tends to make good quality stuff all the way. Some less than other, but all decent.
Logic? You want LOGIC? You play video games, which have some of the most idiotic stories and concepts of all time. DC has actually explained the concepts of their heroes time and time again. The Speedforce has been explained many times, you just gotta go and look for it. Unlike most games, anime and other bullshit, which just places characters jumping miles high and holding giant swords as a STANDARD, comic books actually do try to inject a tiny bit of reality into it. But it's a COMIC BOOK. it's not supposed to be taken seriously in terms of logic. It's a world of gods and magic. Why should you worry about things being LOGICAL?
Oh, and FYI, TTGL's actually my favorite anime of all time. Precisely because it's about defying all logic and reason, and surpassing everything. That's what makes the fiction we see GOOD. Because it enables stuff to go over the limit. Because it enables pretty much all lines to be crossed, so we can have an incredible story.
Batman's the only thing I like about DC, I'll let that slide. What I've read (and watched), things can easily spiral out of control in most DC comics, movies, and shows, Marvel had a civil war, but it never had to get A SECOND EARTH to participate in a war... and Marvel has Deadpool.
You implying that Marvel doesn't have time travelling, deals with demons, several tiers of different kinds of gods, that all the heroes in Marvel haven't died and came back to life already (Thanos event), that it doesn't have PLANET-EATING entities, talking raccoons, separate dimensions where many heroes of different dimensions have gathered to fight a common evil, tons of cosmic [parasitic bomb] happening all the time, and more incompetent villains and heroes that let stuff go out of hand than you can shake a stick at? The Civil War was kids' stuff! Scarlet Witch wished all mutants to be gone! The Skrulls invaded them after a build-up plan for years! The earth was governed by villains for quite awhile! Thanos took over all of existance then gave it up because he was BORED. Jesus Christ, Marvel has MORE crap than DC to sort out. DC normally can give a happy ending to stuff, a resolution to most things. Marvel simply ties stuff into the next event over and over so nothing can ever be FINISHED. This Heroic Age reboot settled stuff on Earth but hooly crap, [parasitic bomb]'s getting real on the cosmic side.
Touche.
It's amusing, hearing the thoughts of how a MegaMan sequel should handle from somebody who doesn't actually like MegaMan.
I don't know how any gamer worth their thumbs can stand the dual-analogue system, leaving only shoulder buttons actually usable. It's a very unnatural control setup to me. But you don't see me crawling up the ass of.....well, whatever non-Wii FPS is all the rage these days. This would be like if some traditional fighter fan was bitching about how Smash should be more like......*remembers Fox Only/Final Destination* Nevermind.
Yeah, what can I say. I don't really care about "hardcore" shooters. The only reason I even like Goldeneye is for the infinite dual rocket launchers cheat. >w<
MegaMan at its core is not a shooter, but a platformer that happens to include shooting as your attack method (and NOBODY wants to see it turn out like Shadow The Hedgehog). That means in 3D you need either manual camera control or a lock-on. Preferably the latter if you work under the assumption that enemies are not gracious enough to wait until they're on the same horizontal axis as you before attacking (however X7 wrecked this by leaving the lock-on fully automated...even in 2D, where it shouldn't have existed in the first place).
I happen to actually like Smallville, except for two things. One, Clark being unable to fly is no longer believable after High School graduation, which was 4 years ago. Two, Season 8. It somehow found a way to undo every meaningful thing that ever happened, along with copping out of any buildup that was going on towards an actual fight during the finale. Seriously, you go from 7 to 9, you miss NOTHING, except Clark has a time-travelling ring and Jimmy Olsen is actually Jimmy Olsen's older now-dead brother (well, "Henry", we'll miss you; next time use your [dark hold] little brother who couldn't even be bothered to show up at your wedding as a lead pipe shield).
Actually, I do like Megaman. Heck, isn't it one of the reasons to belong here? But I like the original series. And The first BN game. And the first Zero game was kinda decent too. And the PSP remakes.
Can STAND the dual analogs? It's the best control setup there is. It's a control setup where you can control both your character and the camera at the same time. And trust me, I started TRULY liking FPS games on consoles kinda late. PC was the only place where FPS games really worked in terms of control. But once the dual analog setting was installed, all it takes is a tiny bit of getting used to, and after that, it's like riding a bike. I actually don't play alot of FPS games, but when I do, it feels natural. And for third person shooters, even more so. Tell me ANY kind of controller setup where you can move your character around and aim at the same time, manually, with the very best of controls. You can't. Wiimote's good for aiming on the screen, but for actual turning? Nope.
It actually makes me laugh when you talk about "hardcore shooters". You know, there's a VERY big distinction between hardcore shooters and smalltime, easier shooters. Hardcore shooters? Quake, TF2, Counter-Strike, STALKER, Serious Sam, ... those are hardcore. PC titles, you need quick aim, constant use of resources and buttons, constant quicksave when in singleplayer... While console titles, like Halo and Bioshock, are ridiculously casual and user-friendly. Halo was tailored for a console setup, because an analog stick isn't as quick as a mouse/keyboard setup. The health recovery is specially for that. Halo is the Super Smash Bros of shooters, man. XD Why do you think so many people play it? Because it's EASY. It's easy to get into, it's got cartoony jumps and weapons that pop around, it's got people in heavy armor suits jumping like Michael Jordan, it's got colorful vehicles... But yeah, like Smash Bros, it's got good strategy when required, and it's pretty damn good when you start getting into it.
I had your EXACT mindset before I actually tried shooters seriously. I ended up really enjoying them. And the dual analog control does end up being the most faithful kind of control you can ever have in a game where you HAVE to look around at things. Seriously, when you can't stop and just set the camera right, you have to use something like it. And it works WONDERS for the game. It actually makes it work flawlessly, you can look everywhere you want, there are no perspectives unavailable to you in half a second, and it's fantastic.
Platformers can work really well with a third-person shooter mechanic. Look at Crackdown, for example. it's got awesome platforming elements.
And if you want a platformer with shooting, look no further. Just because Shadow wasn't able to do it, it doesn't mean a ton of other games can't as well. Ever played Jak? Or Ratchet & Clank?
Here's an example of how Jak handles the Shadow gameplay FLAWLESSLY, by simply working well.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWTBckzZPA&feature=related[/youtube]
In Ratchet & Clank, you can actually choose between strafing and moving normally. And it's a great platformer! Why should we need lock-on to a single target? With lock-on, we can't aim at enemies the way we like. This way, we can. Perfect setup for such a game. No need to go back to archaic gameplay formats. Join the present.
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You implying that Marvel doesn't have time travelling, deals with demons, several tiers of different kinds of gods, that all the heroes in Marvel haven't died and came back to life already (Thanos event), that it doesn't have PLANET-EATING entities, talking raccoons, separate dimensions where many heroes of different dimensions have gathered to fight a common evil, tons of cosmic [parasitic bomb] happening all the time, and more incompetent villains and heroes that let stuff go out of hand than you can shake a stick at? The Civil War was kids' stuff! Scarlet Witch wished all mutants to be gone! The Skrulls invaded them after a build-up plan for years! The earth was governed by villains for quite awhile! Thanos took over all of existance then gave it up because he was BORED. Jesus Christ, Marvel has MORE crap than DC to sort out. DC normally can give a happy ending to stuff, a resolution to most things. Marvel simply ties stuff into the next event over and over so nothing can ever be FINISHED. This Heroic Age reboot settled stuff on Earth but hooly crap, [parasitic bomb]'s getting real on the cosmic side.
Typing up my reply to ya right now.
Sorry for not being able to catch up to recent DC events because of it's production rates. HUZ-ZAH! Plus that episode he was thrown into the heavens NUDE in smallville in an episode I can't remember shows my lack of intrest in Dee-Cee.
You think they'd really change the story of a Megaman game? And of course the presentation will be different, it's years later. It'll be pretty, shiny and new. And Megaman will be huge, wield a machine gun, and he will be drawn by Rob Liefeld. And he will be fighting bad guys in a huge post-apocalyptic wasteland, with a semi-nude Roll in a bikini.
Gee, thanks for summarizing Rockman Zero GBA games.
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*stares blankly* Two different sides of the line indeed.
This is totally pointless now. I'm gonna go play Megaman like a good fan should. Seriously. [tornado fang] this. >_>
But I will say, Capcom has my respect for being "jackassically incessant fan pleasing vidyagaem makers" because they atleast keep it real.
Never the less, before I get a title of "bitches be tripping" due to the warring energy that swells within, primarily because of this [tornado fang]ing heat and secondarily because of the MASSIVE difference in existence between us; I'll just walk away. And walk away fast.
Final comment: Logic is fun. I apply logic to even fantasy based things. After all, where is the fun if you don't try to explain something? At least to the best of your ability. Also, most of the stuff I like comes with reasoning behind why and often contains encyclopedia based formats to explain said things. But this is longer than previously intended now. kthxbai
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Don't forget that Hudson realized the folly that was Act Zero and quickly went back to the original design.
Now if only they'd make a new Adventure Island... (they're making a new Bonk, they might as well)
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Sorry for not being able to catch up to recent DC events because of it's production rates. HUZ-ZAH! Plus that episode he was thrown into the heavens NUDE in smallville in an episode I can't remember shows my lack of intrest in Dee-Cee.
Gee, thanks for summarizing Rockman Zero GBA games.
What? I just described MARVEL events, dude. DC events aren't really alot to follow. I have a harder time catching up with Marvel's crap than I ever did with DC.
And the Zero games were pure anime.
*stares blankly* Two different sides of the line indeed.
This is totally pointless now. I'm gonna go play Megaman like a good fan should. Seriously. [tornado fang] this. >_>
But I will say, Capcom has my respect for being "jackassically incessant fan pleasing vidyagaem makers" because they atleast keep it real.
Never the less, before I get a title of "bitches be tripping" due to the warring energy that swells within, primarily because of this [tornado fang]ing heat and secondarily because of the MASSIVE difference in existence between us; I'll just walk away. And walk away fast.
Final comment: Logic is fun. I apply logic to even fantasy based things. After all, where is the fun if you don't try to explain something? At least to the best of your ability. Also, most of the stuff I like comes with reasoning behind why and often contains encyclopedia based formats to explain said things. But this is longer than previously intended now. kthxbai
Capcom's awesome, I never said they weren't. Aside from getting rid of Clover and kinda disrespecting certain franchises (DMC, for example), they've been the only company to play on both sides of the fence. Pampering the old-school nerds, and delivering new awesome content like Lost Planet and Dead Rising. They make it so everyone's pleased, and I can seriously respect that.
Heheheh, I love rage. 8D Dude, chill. Logic is fun, but it's not always required.You say that DC doesn't have logic. Instead of getting a basis out of Smallville episodes (which would be the same as me using the old american Megaman cartoon for my opinion on the whole franchise), why not go and look for the encyclopedia-based format widely available online that pretty much explains every single power and event, their basis, how they work in such and such a situation, how they were created, in what way, etc. It's available. You're only blind if you don't want to see.
Don't forget that Hudson realized the folly that was Act Zero and quickly went back to the original design.
Now if only they'd make a new Adventure Island... (they're making a new Bonk, they might as well)
They will eventually. Everyone's following the fad of re-releasing the classics.
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I come in to this thread, and I see a debate with full walls of text... and also talk about if DC is [parasitic bomb] or not.
wat
Anyway. I guess, I'll detach myself from this discussion... a bit.
So. Legends 3, eh? How it should be done, hmm?
Honestly, the only things those games need is a bit of improvement in boring dungeons design, better controls and camera.
Oh, and the lock on. Let's not forget about that.
Of course, a bit more of a revamp wouldn't be so bad now, wouldn't it?
They should give us more different gameplay elements. Like... I dunno. Bigger world to explore? Huge ass amount of INTERESTING side quests and dungeons? Maybe some super fine vehicles... or maybe we could even fly the Flutter and fight with Bonnes or whomever. Or even more developed "dating" elements(like, I dunno. I would totally want to make Tron feel good... if you know what I mean.... and I think you do). I'm not saying it should turn into GTA. But such things would the game more interesting... and even extended gameplay quite a lot.
ALSO, JESUS [tornado fang] PEOPLE! THERE'S A COMIC BOOK THREAD FOR DISCUSSION ABOUT YOUR DEE-CEES AND MAHVELLS! I MADE IT! GO AND TALK ABOUT IT THERE!
That'll be all.
^_^
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I think that the Bonnes might side with Rock in Legends 3, judging by how they changed in 2...
Maybe a friendly skirmish would work, though...
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I come in to this thread, and I see a debate with full walls of text... and also talk about if DC is [parasitic bomb] or not.
wat
Anyway. I guess, I'll detach myself from this discussion... a bit.
So. Legends 3, eh? How it should be done, hmm?
Honestly, the only things those games need is a bit of improvement in boring dungeons design, better controls and camera.
Oh, and the lock on. Let's not forget about that.
Of course, a bit more of a revamp wouldn't be so bad now, wouldn't it?
They should give us more different gameplay elements. Like... I dunno. Bigger world to explore? Huge ass amount of INTERESTING side quests and dungeons? Maybe some super fine vehicles... or maybe we could even fly the Flutter and fight with Bonnes or whomever. Or even more developed "dating" elements(like, I dunno. I would totally want to make Tron feel good... if you know what I mean.... and I think you do). I'm not saying it should turn into GTA. But such things would the game more interesting... and even extended gameplay quite a lot.
ALSO, JESUS [tornado fang] PEOPLE! THERE'S A COMIC BOOK THREAD FOR DISCUSSION ABOUT YOUR DEE-CEES AND MAHVELLS! I MADE IT! GO AND TALK ABOUT IT THERE!
That'll be all.
^_^
I've already given my opinion on how the gameplay should work. A Ratchet & Clank style of play would work quite well, seeing as the shooting/platforming elements would be played together without a need for locking onto a single enemy.
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What? I just described MARVEL events, dude. DC events aren't really alot to follow. I have a harder time catching up with Marvel's crap than I ever did with DC.
And the Zero games were pure anime.
It's why I couldn't keep intrest. :P
Anime? it had bits of world folktale. It's why the story was at it's best at Z4. Lord Forte, don't forget that this is RPM, people do have the tendancy to lose track of the topic once it hits the second page of it's lifespan.
For a third Legends game; try combining the Ratchet and Clank with the early Spyro aspects of gameplay, and let's see how that goes.
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I've already given my opinion on how the gameplay should work. A Ratchet & Clank style of play would work quite well, seeing as the shooting/platforming elements would be played together without a need for locking onto a single enemy.
Yes.
True, but you see... if Legends suddenly became something like Ratchet & Clank... it wouldn't be Legends anymore, now would be?
After all... Legends is all about keeping platforming to minimum and instead focusing attention on exploring creepy dungeons.
Sure, the R&C elements could be implemented within the dungeons... but it just wouldn't be the same.
I think I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Not saying your viewpoint is bad, but for me it would work best for something like X9... if they would even attempt making it fully/partially 3d again.
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If they make another 3D X it needs to be full 3D X. A lot of the issues plaguing X7 come from the crossover not working out very well, in particular various attacking mechanics. With Zero's techniques, what's wide in one "dimension" is paper-thin in another. And auto-lock in 2D segments, what the hell were they thinking? The fact that the entire 2D level design save for Stonekong was worthless didn't help matters.
Gee, thanks for summarizing Rockman Zero GBA games.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
For the purpose of Rockman Zero, Inticreates does not believe in breasts. As such, "semi-nude Roll", at least in the context I hope he meant, may be considered an enhancement (or possibly a Zero/Legends crossover, given that Trigger always finds a way to scope her out).
It's the best control setup there is. It's a control setup where you can control both your character and the camera at the same time.
Legends did that. Left all face buttons available while operating both simultaneously, and provided for quick 180-degree camera turns. All before analogue inputs were ever part of the equation.
The dual-analogue system's strength is that it provides easy access to vertical aiming, which is handy, but ruling out the face buttons during turning is not the most natural thing. It limits the number of simultaneous actions you can do while aiming.
In MegaMan Legends, you jump and side-roll. As part of combat. Now having not actually played the game you're showing me, it's hard for me to envision how every control mechanic works, but I'm not seeing the camera move while Jak is in mid-air. This is key to combat in Legends. In fact, combat in general in the video you're showing me appears less mobile. I'm not seeing Jack move a whole lot, he just shoots as he runs and stuff quickly dies. Quick-aiming multiple opponents is well suited to such a formula, but Legends goes a bit deeper than that, with combat even against minor enemies generally lasting longer.
all it takes is a tiny bit of getting used to, and after that, it's like riding a bike.
Again, sounds like Legends. Except, you know, more limiting. But its an adopted standard and therefore better/more intuitive.
Wiimote's good for aiming on the screen, but for actual turning? Nope.
Well, there's Mario Galaxy, if you count the fact that you're shooting from off-screen completely irrelevant to the character you're turning. 8D
My main shooting experience on Wii is Metroid Prime, and I don't believe the Metroid Prime setup is perfect. Ever since it came out I have repeatedly criticized its lack of button customization and inability to disable vertical auto-leveling, a "feature" which I find extremely annoying. Nevertheless, while one may classify Metroid Prime as an "adventure" rather than "shooter", there is no denying that shooting takes precedence over maneuverability. MegaMan is the other way around, which from previous discussions I have gathered is one of your gripes with it (inability to aim and all).
I would imagine, though, that turning independent of your Wii pointer would be a lot easier to handle in 3rd-person. Legends with the Wii remote could be epic.
Why should we need lock-on to a single target? With lock-on, we can't aim at enemies the way we like.
I don't know about that, manual aiming in Legends works well enough for ground enemies (I didn't see any interesting mid-air opponents in that Jak video). Plus any lock-on worth a damn allows you to cycle through enemies.
And it depends on how fast your enemies are. Show me anything using dual-analogue that is roughly equivalent to jumping over a giant robot wyvern as it attempts to ram you and never losing your aim during the midair 180-degree turn. Manual-only limits your boss maneuverability a bit; or at the very least it leaves it unavoidable that you will scramble to get a highly mobile enemy out of your "blind spot" after they've jumped off-screen, dashed behind you, etc.
Legends has actually gone both ways, too, which is why I asked earlier which one you have played. L1 was done without a (mobile) lock-on. And I never had an issue with keeping enemies in my sights, the shoulder-button camera control is a system which I can work flawlessly (in fact when possible I migrate strafing controls in other Playstation games to the D-Pad in order to mimick it, such as in Armored Core). L2 had mobile lock-on. L2 was better for it. The enemy AI and mobility was noticeably superior in ways that L1 never would have managed.
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If they make another 3D X it needs to be full 3D X. A lot of the issues plaguing X7 come from the crossover not working out very well, in particular various attacking mechanics. With Zero's techniques, what's wide in one "dimension" is paper-thin in another. And auto-lock in 2D segments, what the hell were they thinking? The fact that the entire 2D level design save for Stonekong was worthless didn't help matters.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
For the purpose of Rockman Zero, Inticreates does not believe in breasts. As such, "semi-nude Roll", at least in the context I hope he meant, may be considered an enhancement (or possibly a Zero/Legends crossover, given that Trigger always finds a way to scope her out).
Legends did that. Left all face buttons available while operating both simultaneously, and provided for quick 180-degree camera turns. All before analogue inputs were ever part of the equation.
Dude, wooow. If they remade Rockman Zero, let's go with that logic 8D
But yeah, we should model the 3D off of Stonekong's stage when developing the next 3D X game. But we should also add the Maze in CM, that was good use of 3D there.
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If they make another 3D X it needs to be full 3D X. A lot of the issues plaguing X7 come from the crossover not working out very well, in particular various attacking mechanics. With Zero's techniques, what's wide in one "dimension" is paper-thin in another. And auto-lock in 2D segments, what the hell were they thinking? The fact that the entire 2D level design save for Stonekong was worthless didn't help matters.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
For the purpose of Rockman Zero, Inticreates does not believe in breasts. As such, "semi-nude Roll", at least in the context I hope he meant, may be considered an enhancement (or possibly a Zero/Legends crossover, given that Trigger always finds a way to scope her out).
Legends did that. Left all face buttons available while operating both simultaneously, and provided for quick 180-degree camera turns. All before analogue inputs were ever part of the equation.
The dual-analogue system's strength is that it provides easy access to vertical aiming, which is handy, but ruling out the face buttons during turning is not the most natural thing. It limits the number of simultaneous actions you can do while aiming.
In MegaMan Legends, you jump and side-roll. As part of combat. Now having not actually played the game you're showing me, it's hard for me to envision how every control mechanic works, but I'm not seeing the camera move while Jak is in mid-air. This is key to combat in Legends. In fact, combat in general in the video you're showing me appears less mobile. I'm not seeing Jack move a whole lot, he just shoots when he has a breather and stuff dies. The quick-aiming is well suited to such a formula, but Legends goes a bit deeper than that, with combat even against minor enemies generally lasting longer.
Again, sounds like Legends. Except, you know, more limiting. But its an adopted standard and therefore better/more intuitive.
Well, there's Mario Galaxy, if you count the fact that you're shooting from off-screen completely irrelevant to the character you're turning. 8D
My main shooting experience on Wii is Metroid Prime, and I don't believe the Metroid Prime setup is perfect. Ever since it came out I have repeatedly criticized its lack of button customization and inability to disable vertical auto-leveling, a "feature" which I find extremely annoying. Nevertheless, while one may classify Metroid Prime as an "adventure" rather than "shooter", there is no denying that shooting takes precedence over maneuverability. MegaMan is the other way around, which from previous discussions I have gathered is one of your gripes with it (inability to aim and all).
I don't know about that, manual aiming in Legends works well enough for ground enemies (I didn't see any interesting mid-air opponents in that Jak video). Plus any lock-on worth a damn allows you to cycle through enemies.
And it depends on how fast your enemies are. Show me anything using dual-analogue that is roughly equivalent to jumping over a giant robot wyvern as it attempts to ram you while never losing your aim during the midair 180-degree turn. Manual-only limits your boss maneuverability a bit; or at the very least it leaves it unavoidable that you will scramble to get a highly mobile enemy out of your "blind spot" after they've jumped off-screen, dashed behind you, etc.
Legends has actually gone both ways, too, which is why I asked earlier which one you have played. L1 was done without a (mobile) lock-on. And I never had an issue with keeping enemies in my sights, the shoulder-button camera control is a system which I can work flawlessly (in fact when possible I migrate strafing controls in other Playstation games to the D-Pad in order to mimick it, such as in Armored Core). L2 had mobile lock-on. L2 was better for it. The enemy AI and mobility was noticeably superior in ways that L1 never would have managed.
Alright, let's take a look at this:
Legends made you able to control a camera with triggers. That's two buttons. I'm talking about controlling a camera, not simply being able to give the left-right imput. Face buttons can easily be swapped to triggers. You don't really need every single face button. Heck, the two different kicks in Legends basically showed exactly that. You should have one single button to interact, which could be X, one button to shoot, mapped to a trigger, the menus can be kept to the start and select screens, and to jump and switch stuff, we got two other triggers. Why do we even need face buttons? And heck, if we do, platforming can work quite well with face buttons/dual analog. Halo uses jump-strafe alot, and so do alot of other games. Heck, Crackdown has quite alot of platforming, and it works as a TPS. Check it out:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfb4U9m_2Fc[/youtube]
For a standard of gameplay nowadays, if any game adapted classic Legends gameplay, it would be seen as simply BAD gameplay. Games have to fit what's comfortable for the player. In this case, what's comfortable for you, is something that became impossible to use for people who are used to nowadays' games, with more intuitive controls which are commonly used in every single game with a functioning manual camera. Most games nowadays with a third person perspective have the analog stick used for camera movement. It's been like that for a LOOOOONG time. So everyone, either shooter players or non-shooter players will be expecting such a thing. it'll be intuitive, rather than trigger controls which give you small imput over the camera just for the sake of using the face buttons at the same time.
...when does the Wiimote pointer feature anywhere in Mario Galaxy's turning? You lost me. It worked pretty well in Resi 4, Metroid Prime 3, The Conduit, and other FPS games on the console, but again, it's not fit for someone to turn. An analog stick's quicker and more intuitive, you're basically aiming a little targer at the screen at the same time as you're moving your character around.
Jumping around, getting out of a way of a big hulking creature and never losing aim over it? You just described Halo's Hunters, man. =P And check out how to fight a Berzerker on Gears of War to find out how to really dodge well incoming big enemies. Seriously, it's really easy to work the jumping around in TPS games. All you gotta do is get a tiny bit more experience in them. I think the fact that you really have no experience with them, is why you don't think this kind of gameplay would work. Seriously, it is THE perfect fit for Legends.
...and the only kind of gameplay which would be accepted nowadays for a game like Legends. Face it.
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Heck, the two different kicks in Legends basically showed exactly that.
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Two kicks exist only in areas where all actual weapons are unequipped. Having only a single weapon button for MegaMan games has been considered obsolete ever since the PS1.
Most games nowadays with a third person perspective have the analog stick used for camera movement. It's been like that for a LOOOOONG time.
I'm aware of that. But there's no reason one cannot present an alternative, especially in a cult revival which has its roots in a drastically different input method.
Before continuing, you may want to look into Control Option D in MML2. Because I basically hear that as what you're describing, dual analogue + trigger commands. It's been done, I've tried it, I find it awkward as hell. But really, that's why the Options menu exists. There are a great deal of players, especially MegaMan fans, who will tell you that using a shoulder button to jump is not in any way less awkward than using anything but the right analogue stick for camera control.
Not to mention taking on Geetz in manual aim, while technically possible, is the textbook definition of clunk. Geetz is not just large, he is VERY mobile. And he's not even a challenging opponent, either, but that just demonstrates the depth of enemy mobility that you need to be able to deal with. The right analogue stick isn't worth a damn in that fight.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEWr_B1TDg[/youtube]
...when does the Wiimote pointer feature anywhere in Mario Galaxy's turning?
It doesn't.An analog stick's quicker and more intuitive, you're basically aiming a little targer at the screen at the same time as you're moving your character around.
That's my point. For TPS, the Wii Remote rules over dual-analogue. And frankly I believe it does in FPS as well. The precision you get from the pointer can't be matched by a stick. It's like having a mouse for your TV. Whether or not the dev has incorporated a quick-turn command is a separate issue.
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(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
Two kicks exist only in areas where all actual weapons are unequipped. Having only a single weapon button for MegaMan games has been considered obsolete ever since the PS1.
I'm aware of that. But there's no reason one cannot present an alternative, especially in a cult revival which has its roots in a drastically different input method.
However, before continuing, you may want to look into Control Option D in MML2. Because I basically hear that as what you're describing, dual analogue + trigger commands. It's been done, I've tried it, I find it awkward as hell. Not to mention taking on Geetz in manual aim is the textbook definition of clunk. Geetz is not just large, he is VERY mobile.
But that's why the Options menu exists. There are a great deal of players who will tell you that using a shoulder button to jump is not in any way less awkward than using anything but the right analogue stick for camera control.
It doesn't.That's my point. For TPS, the Wii Remote rules over dual-analogue. And frankly I believe it does in FPS as well. The precision you get from the pointer can't be matched by a stick. It's like having a mouse for your TV. Whether or not the dev has incorporated a quick-turn command is a separate issue.
Agreed with the rest, and honestly, don't count on classic controls, but good luck.
But although a Wiimote would be good for aiming, it's AWFUL for turning. It's good for say... light gun games and the sort. And for games where you stop and aim, such as Resi 4, or soon to be Other M. But for TPS/FPS? Turning is something you need to do incredibly fast, and pointing the remote at the edge of the screen just doesn't work. Often, the screen just loses track of it, and it's not as accurate as a dual stick function. Turning and movement is half of the whole control scheme. And if you say Motion Plus, no. Red Steel 2 reportedly had help from Nintendo to make it work, and it's the same crap. You move it out of the screen, it quickly loses its regular imput and starts moving like crazy, so it has to calibrate from minute to minute. As someone who's pretty much tried to get used to every single shooter in the console, the answer is no. It does not work. And quick turns, honestly, aren't needed in this day and age. You don't see any recent game which doesn't have slow tank controls or slow turning with any quick turns. The player should be able to look in any direction fast, without any kind of worry. It's possible to do that in most games in half a second. You seriously gotta get used to more recent games with these examples if you want to see how well they work.
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Turning is something you need to do incredibly fast, and pointing the remote at the edge of the screen just doesn't work. Often, the screen just loses track of it, and it's not as accurate as a dual stick function.
At least in an FPS you have the use of the entire screen, unlike Sega's take on the pointer. >0<
It depends on how well the game is made, I'd say, in addition to your own dexterity with keeping within screen boundaries. It's why most "evolved" Wii FPSes will allow you to adjust turning sensitivity. In Metroid Prime, for example, while the entire gaming press seems to believe that Advanced sensitivity is the only way to go, I personally find it too jittery, so I go with Normal. Never had a problem.
I still want to deliver a boot to the head of whoever's idea it was to include no option to disable vertical auto-level, but I've never had turning issues.
Motion Plus should never be necessary for pointer controls. As for its usefulness in error-reduction for such, the sensor bar may still be necessary to calibrate it but I can't imagine it actually is required to keep it in constant sight, given Zelda's sword waves and such. You charge them by pointing directly in the air. So my gut's telling me that Red Steel 2 simply dropped the ball. Maybe Conduit 2 will work better?
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At least in an FPS you have the use of the entire screen, unlike Sega's take on the pointer. >0<
It depends on how well the game is made, I'd say, in addition to your own dexterity with keeping within screen boundaries. It's why most "evolved" Wii FPSes will allow you to adjust turning sensitivity. In Metroid Prime, for example, while the entire gaming press seems to believe that Advanced sensitivity is the only way to go, I personally find it too jittery, so I go with Normal. Never had a problem.
It still is awful. While turning is simply an automatic motion in any other game, going through having to use the aiming Wiimote to turn is awfully cumbersome.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRMn1tj5-Nc[/youtube]
Imagine playing a game like this with the wiimote. While yes, that's mouse controls, the right analog stick is the closest kind of comfort available for consoles. And it plays quite well with games such as Serious Sam, that REQUIRE such a fast imput. Games like this would be pretty much impossible to play with a wiimote, because the turning would be slow and cumbersome. It's the reason why current FPS games like Red Steel have old-style Metroid Prime single analog stick turning in regular areas. Because the Wiimote just isn't enough for fast movement. Evolving dexterity to keep within screen boundaries isn't just a slow and tedious kind of training, it's still a worse style than having a single hour of experience with dual analogs.
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I'm still laying that issue at the feet of devs rather than the hardware. There's no reason one cannot map analogue directions to the field of a pointer, and no reason the pointer cannot move about all areas of the screen as quickly as an analogue stick can switch directions. I get plenty of practice in that just out of boredom waiting through loading screens (I blame mainly Pokemon Battle Revolution for that one).
The hiccup is in how one handles the borders, turning speed, "bounding box", and all that jazz. On borders, Sonic Team presents a worst-case scenario in NiGHTS while the majority of devs are more competent but still less than ideal. The screen is not the definition of Wii remote pointing; the sensor bar is. Even if it is commonplace to leave your game going haywire based solely on screen boundaries rather than the actual IR line of sight, it doesn't make it less moronic. IMHO, more devs need to stop leaving their pointers hang at the border. It only serves to disorient the player. Rather, have the pointer move fully on/off screen and approximate positions as best one can until it returns. Only when the sensor bar is completely out of the remote's field of view should there ever be a problem.
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I've mapped the joystick on my Gamecube controller to move the pointer and it works quite well. Just saying.
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A bit more Ono tweet-teasing to be had...
I finally hope to reveal a bit about what I've been relentlessly working on lately..But there is Evo2010 first...and I haven't packed yet!
- http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18100234339 (http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18100234339)
He's also revealed that he will be at Comic-Con, as well (at least for the sake of a SF4 panel is what he's been willing to talk about thus far.) But with Inafune planning to also be present for the sake of revealing a game at that same convention, could there be a connection? :D
*has visions of Darkstalkers dancing in his head* *o*
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Do you know how hard you just made me? What are you gonna do about this, PB?
See if PBPB wants to come over for some Morphing Time?
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Wait, who are RPM's Rangers?
RANGERS!!
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This topic is good for the Geetz nostalgia. *walks out again*
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See if PBPB wants to come over for some Morphing Time?
This is satisfactory :P
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I'm still laying that issue at the feet of devs rather than the hardware. There's no reason one cannot map analogue directions to the field of a pointer, and no reason the pointer cannot move about all areas of the screen as quickly as an analogue stick can switch directions. I get plenty of practice in that just out of boredom waiting through loading screens (I blame mainly Pokemon Battle Revolution for that one).
The hiccup is in how one handles the borders, turning speed, "bounding box", and all that jazz. On borders, Sonic Team presents a worst-case scenario in NiGHTS while the majority of devs are more competent but still less than ideal. The screen is not the definition of Wii remote pointing; the sensor bar is. Even if it is commonplace to leave your game going haywire based solely on screen boundaries rather than the actual IR line of sight, it doesn't make it less moronic. IMHO, more devs need to stop leaving their pointers hang at the border. It only serves to disorient the player. Rather, have the pointer move fully on/off screen and approximate positions as best one can until it returns. Only when the sensor bar is completely out of the remote's field of view should there ever be a problem.
You can't win that battle. Pure button imput will always be faster than motion/pointer imput. It's just NOT possible to achieve an acceptable imput from a pointer, even using the Motion Plus, to reach the precision required for a high speed multiplayer battle, for example. It simply can't be done. Plus, check out the turning speed between a pointer game and an analog game. It will be MUCH slower with a pointer game, due to the lack of precision it maintains. If a player could turn as fast with a pointer, the screen would go nuts if the target was even a tiny bit off in relation to movement, and yet again, the calibration would have to be redone.
Currently, the best solution would be a three-way one. I'm actually thinking the upcoming PS Move will have that partially. If you have a dual analog setup, and are able to have a pointer target at the same time, it'd be the best of both worlds. Still not better than a WSAD/mouse, but damn close.
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Pure button imput will always be faster than motion/pointer imput.
I thought you were talking about a stick, not buttons. If you want to talk 4-button camera control, we can talk Armored Core and Metroid Prime Hunters. Neither of those are winning any prizes, (the earlier really centers around CPU targetting, and the latter is basically only there to ween players off of traditional inputs).
If a player could turn as fast with a pointer, the screen would go nuts if the target was even a tiny bit off in relation to movement, and yet again, the calibration would have to be redone.
Something I've taken notice of is that the issues you're mention come from using the same device to control both camera and aiming. The keyboard/mouse video you linked has your weapon constantly aimed at the center of the screen, using the mouse only to turn. Show me the Wii game that has even attempted this. With Wii games, devs generally want you to aim with the cursor. So you're talking about a different control style, not a hardware issue.
For that matter, show me the Dual Analogue TPS which actually functions using such rigid aiming, and I'll show you some slowass enemies. Such a setup is easily attempted in L2 (use Control Type D and ignore the lock-on button), and it's no prize. In a non-lock-on Dual Analogue game, the CPU aims for you at all times (as I took notice of in your Jak video). You do not have the precision necessary to do pinpoint aiming without CPU aid; whether shown by an on-screen indicator or not, it is still effectively an auto-lock with manual camera. The strength of Metroid Prime 3, or to a lesser degree any game with a manual lock, is that you choose when you do and don't want the CPU to take over. With the Wii's pointer, you get an unmatched level of versatility (using pointing and lock-on separately, I mean; I utterly despise lock-on-free-aim as it is largely pointless and cramps my hands in any battles demanding rapid-fire). You can pick off small fries without missing a beat, and use the lock-on to focus on more troublesome foes, be that due to strength or mobility.
And I'm gathering your Legends experience is with L1? It just occurred to me that L2 doesn't have two different kicks.
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It is a lack of logical logic.
Kick logic out and do the impossible!
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Kick logic out and do the impossible!
*shrugs* I like an explanation for anything. If you can explain something, how it works, even if it is only applicable to that world. And make it sound like it makes sense and not utter bullshit, I am satisfied. I'm the kinda guy that spends 3-4 hours browsing the Xenosaga III encyclopedia. I'm the guy that really digs how stuff like Fate/Stay Night explains magic and what have you, then gets even more stoked when I find a Wiki that explains things further.
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But DC explains how everything works. In fact, DC as of recent years, has gotten far far superior at explaining how things work moreso than Marvel.
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@Superbat: I get what you are saying. Play Legends 2 with type d controls and it's just like what you are saying it should be. Legends 2 is FAR superior to Legends 1.
L1 for shoot, R1 for second weapon, L2 for jump and R2 for lock on. Second analogue is Aiming/camera, and first analogue is for movement.
It works great, It's how I always play Legends 2. I hope Legends 3 has the lost planet/dead rising controls. Because they are basically the evolution of the Legends 2 setup, considering MT framework was made with Legends 3 in mind in the first place.
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But DC explains how everything works. In fact, DC as of recent years, has gotten far far superior at explaining how things work moreso than Marvel.
I read about the Flash and all that. It all starts to sound like a supernatural soap. But honestly, for me to ever potentially get into it, I'd have to start from the beginning. And honestly, no time to hunt down over 9000 comics about a douchebag that runs fast.
No offense. I just have more pressing things to do.
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I read about the Flash and all that. It all starts to sound like a supernatural soap. But honestly, for me to ever potentially get into it, I'd have to start from the beginning. And honestly, no time to hunt down over 9000 comics about a douchebag that runs fast.
No offense. I just have more pressing things to do.
Actually, not really. Usually when DC comes out with new comics, retcons, etc., they tend to have a whole Secret Files and Origins type comic or 6. Both GL & Supes has had one, and I fully expect one coming for the Flash soon as well.
LoL, and most animes are supernatural soaps. :P
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I read about the Flash and all that. It all starts to sound like a supernatural soap. But honestly, for me to ever potentially get into it, I'd have to start from the beginning. And honestly, no time to hunt down over 9000 comics about a douchebag that runs fast.
No offense. I just have more pressing things to do.
There's just been a reboot. 3 singular issues are out. And if you want good old storylines, why not read The Human Race, Rogue War, or Blitz? Those are all amazing, and do a pretty darn good job at explaining everything. If you read ABOUT Flash, you haven't read Flash. I know few people who have read ALL Superman comics from the start, or ALL Batman comics from the start (I actually did it in an entire summer, [parasitic bomb] was so golden/silver/modern age). Why not start from a reboot? Or read any of Wally's great storylines? It just seems to me that you think it's crap, yet you don't WANT to know more about it. I do believe that doesn't give you the authority to to state the actual quality of the stories. If you want, simply say "I'm not interested in the subject at hand and I do not want to find out more about it" and be done with it.
I thought you were talking about a stick, not buttons. If you want to talk 4-button camera control, we can talk Armored Core and Metroid Prime Hunters. Neither of those are winning any prizes, (the earlier really centers around CPU targetting, and the latter is basically only there to ween players off of traditional inputs).
Something I've taken notice of is that the issues you're mention come from using the same device to control both camera and aiming. The keyboard/mouse video you linked has your weapon constantly aimed at the center of the screen, using the mouse only to turn. Show me the Wii game that has even attempted this. With Wii games, devs generally want you to aim with the cursor. So you're talking about a different control style, not a hardware issue.
For that matter, show me the Dual Analogue TPS which actually functions using such rigid aiming, and I'll show you some slowass enemies. Such a setup is easily attempted in L2 (use Control Type D and ignore the lock-on button), and it's no prize. In a non-lock-on Dual Analogue game, the CPU aims for you at all times (as I took notice of in your Jak video). You do not have the precision necessary to do pinpoint aiming without CPU aid; whether shown by an on-screen indicator or not, it is still effectively an auto-lock with manual camera. The strength of Metroid Prime 3, or to a lesser degree any game with a manual lock, is that you choose when you do and don't want the CPU to take over. With the Wii's pointer, you get an unmatched level of versatility (using pointing and lock-on separately, I mean; I utterly despise lock-on-free-aim as it is largely pointless and cramps my hands in any battles demanding rapid-fire). You can pick off small fries without missing a beat, and use the lock-on to focus on more troublesome foes, be that due to strength or mobility.
And I'm gathering your Legends experience is with L1? It just occurred to me that L2 doesn't have two different kicks.
I wasn't talking about 4-button camera imput. Although that was merely acceptable with the N64 FPS games, it couldn't be done well for any kind of games today. Stick imput, same as button imput.
I'll give you a nice comparison. Check out Super Mario 64 DS. That game gives you the ability to control Mario with the touch screen, using the nub. That's how regular dual stick FPS players feel when they have to turn in a Wii FPS. And no amount of practice will change the fact that analog buttons are simply better. No, there's no Wii game that ever attempted to always have the weapon in the middle of the screen, because it would remove what's good about pinpoint aiming with the Wiimote in the first place. The ability to work the game like a light gun game. The Wii is AMAZING for light gun games and stuff like Resi 4. But it fails when it comes to actual movement with the pointer. The place where you place the pointer on the screen also measures the speed of your turn? That's awful when talking about actual speedy playing.
And do you want any fast-paced TPS games where the enemies are constantly shooting at you? How about Red Dead Redemption? Uncharted? Gears of War? Heck, the ONLY TPS game I've seen so far where the aim isn't always in the center of the screen is Lost Planet. And the Wii version of Resi 4. And why SHOULD the aim not be in the center of the screen at all times when we're talking about dual analog setup? Honestly, I really don't know if you know what you're talking about. Ever played Timesplitters, for example? That's a really fast-paced FPS, and the aiming's completely manual. Uncharted? You get to run, jump, shoot, duck, and do alot of other crap and the aiming's perfectly manual. And yes, in all of those games, the CPU aims at you the whole time. There's aim assist on the easier difficulties for inexperienced players, but once you're good at it, you naturally turn it off, because playing full manual is much better for good aiming.
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Stick imput, same as button imput.
In what universe? A stick is not a button.
That game gives you the ability to control Mario with the touch screen, using the nub. That's how regular dual stick FPS players feel when they have to turn in a Wii FPS.
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That's an exaggeration. You can't visually see where your boundaries are in SM64DS, seeings how your eyes are trained on the top screen, making it infinitely more difficult to find the "neutral" position. Further, there are severe ergonomic issues with keeping your thumb in the center of a DS system.
I'm not saying this is a format I'd want to see, I happen to LIKE Metroid Prime 3/Trilogy's setup even if it could stand a few more options, but I'm just saying that your mouse/keyboard video attempts to draw a comparison where none yet exists. You're referring to two different sets of play mechanics, and each have their own strengths regardless of the hardware used to handle them, as such you cannot use them for comparisons of the hardware.
Heck, the ONLY TPS game I've seen so far where the aim isn't always in the center of the screen is Lost Planet.
Your Jak video says otherwise. You're "ballparking" your aim and the computer does the rest. It's extremely obvious at 0:16. The camera makes no vertical movement and yet Jak is firing at enemies of varying elevations. That's auto-correction. And it's how most "non-lock-on" TPS games function.
Seriously. Play Legends 2, Control Type D, and forsake lock-on. I cannot stress this enough; we're talking in the context of a Legends game, so you ought to actually try the Legends game that attempted dual-analogue. I wouldn't vouch for the calibration of the analogue sticks, but nevertheless, try aiming using the right stick in that game against flying opponents without using lock-on, and that's what I mean when I say "fully manual." Because of the fact that the game actually does feature a lock-on, the computer grants you absolutely no leeway. I've tried it, I've re-attempted it over the course of this discussion, and it blows. It is clunky. The format does not function against reasonably fast opponents without the computer auto-correcting you, the only question is to how far an extent. I have enough of an eye for detail that I pick this up immediately in other games, including Shadow; it cheapens the experience. You're not truly aiming, you're just pointing in the general direction. I'd rather lock and focus on my own maneuvers. If you want to convince me of how well the right stick can keep up with a fast, close-range and vertically moving enemy, then keep dishing out the YouTube videos, because in the three you've provided so far I've seen nothing that compares to Geetz.
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In what universe? A stick is not a button.
It's still a button-like imput. Only you press it on a direction, with different intensity as to if you want to walk or run, or to look slowly or quickly. Buttons can have different imput intensities. The Dual Shock 2 actually did this quite well on certain games. MGS2 had that "take your finger off the button slowly and the weapon does not fire" mechanic.
You can't visually see where your boundaries are in SM64DS, seeings how your eyes are trained on the top screen. Further, there are severe ergonomic issues with keeping your thumb in the center of a DS system.
You're telling me that after having those two issues fixed, the analog could just be replaced?
Your Jak video says otherwise. You're "ballparking" your aim and the computer does the rest. It's not unlike Godzilla Unleashed, where you aim beam weapons by tilt rather than by cursor. As long as you're in the right general area, the computer auto-corrects you. That's what I'm talking about.
(http://www.chrkcheung.com/images/misc/facepalm.gif)
Jak isn't a third person shooter. (don't you dare say that it is "because you shoot and see in the third person") You don't even AIM in the game. It's a platforming game with shooting elements. I gave it as an example due to people mentioning Legends as a game that mixed shooting with platforming. Legends 3 doesn't HAVE to be fully aimeable. And with a Jak type of play, it would work nicely.
Seriously. Legends 2, Control Type D, forsake lock-on. I cannot stress this enough; we're talking in the context of a Legends game, so you ought to actually try the Legends game that attempted dual-analogue. I wouldn't vouch for the calibration of the analogue sticks, but try aiming using the right stick in that game without using lock-on, and that's what I mean when I say "fully manual." I've tried it, I've re-attempted it over the course of this discussion, and it blows. The format does not function against reasonably fast opponents without the computer auto-correcting you. If you want to convince me of fast-paced action, keep dishing out the YouTube videos, because in the three you've provided so far I've seen nothing that compares to L2.
Just because the game sucks at actually providing a functional dual analog setting, it doesn't mean other games would. I'm not gonna dish out more youtube videos. You keep telling me to go try out Legends 2 again, you go try out Uncharted, or Gears of War. Or Max Payne, for example. Or Oni, or MGS4 (Japanese lock-on mechanic is awful to play that game well) or any other kind of ACTUAL third-person shooter game without any need for lock-on mechanics, that has fast enemies, and which people have actually been PLAYING for a long time. Heck, third person shooters aren't alot, but many FPS games have the exact same mechanics as them, excluding the character being seen on the screen. And you get to move really fast and aim at really fast enemies all around you at all times. People have done it for ages. If you keep referring to a ten-year old game as having the best gameplay for third person shooting when people have been playing games with much better gameplay for years, that actually ALLOW you full aiming control while giving you ease of aiming at fast-moving enemies... I dunno, I feel like I should tell you to not talk about something you don't understand, and go play some FPS/TPS games. (after seeing what I saw of Legends 2 in a few videos... yeah, still dissapointed)
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your quote tags are in an orgy again, Flash.
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PB: I disagree with them being comparitive in the soap level. Because honestly, most Anime isn't that long drawn out like comics tend to be with this stuff. Or horribly convoluted with the way they constantly pull something new out of their ass. But...
Flash: I might take you up on that offer, because I'm not exactly the ignorant type that just takes my opinion and nothing else into consideration. I'm just adamant in what I believe. It is mostly a matter of what I can acquire on a budget, nothing at the moment.
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It's still a button-like imput.
If that were true the DualShock wouldn't use sticks in the first place; it has enough buttons to function as a digital movement+camera system. Heck, that's what Armored Core does.
And yes, I am aware of pressure-sensitivity and the three-or-so games that actually use it.
You're telling me that after having those two issues fixed, the analog could just be replaced?
It'd certainly beat the hell out of using four buttons to replace a stick.
Jak isn't a third person shooter. (don't you dare say that it is because you shoot and see in the third person)
Was it not you who said that Metroid Prime is a first-person shooter because you shoot and see from the first person?
So, yeah, I'll say it. You shoot and you see in the third person. Is there any other means of offense in the game which I should be aware of? (Swords do not count; their co-existence with MegaMan has been well established including both Legends games.)
If you keep referring to a ten-year old game as having the best gameplay for third person shooting
I never did anything of the sort. I presented it as a solution to finding a common point of reference. If you reject that, you make the discussion extremely difficult.
I'll take you up on your offer, though: Gears Of War is no Legends. The gun action may be fast-paced, but player movement is still sluggish. Trigger could run circles around them.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGEa4v8oAmk[/youtube]
In the first ten seconds you see how troublesome it is when an enemy, even a slow one, gets close to you. Any non-locking shooter depends on maintaining a decent range. In a lock-on game, overly close combat is never an issue, and there are numerous enemies in Legends 2 whose behavior takes full advantage of it.
Not saying such a game can't be great, it can. I think it looks really freaking awesome. But it can't be Legends.
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Ono adds on some more tweet-teasing...
I was able to prepare Trailer of Comic-con. Don't miss it on next Saturday !!
- http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18199679128 (http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18199679128)
*o* Can't wait...
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If that were true the DualShock wouldn't use sticks in the first place; it has enough buttons to function as a digital movement+camera system. Heck, that's what Armored Core does.
And yes, I am aware of pressure-sensitivity and the three-or-so games that actually use it.
It'd certainly beat the hell out of using four buttons to replace a stick.
Was it not you who said that Metroid Prime is a first-person shooter because you shoot and see from the first person?
So, yeah, I'll say it. You shoot and you see in the third person. Is there any other means of offense in the game which I should be aware of? (Swords do not count; their co-existence with MegaMan has been well established including both Legends games.)
I never did anything of the sort. I presented it as a solution to finding a common point of reference. If you reject that, you make the discussion extremely difficult.
I'll take you up on your offer, though: Gears Of War is no Legends. The gun action may be fast-paced, but player movement is still sluggish. Trigger could run circles around them.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGEa4v8oAmk[/youtube]
In the first ten seconds you see how troublesome it is when an enemy, even a slow one, gets close to you. Any non-locking shooter depends on maintaining a decent range. In a lock-on game, overly close combat is never an issue, and there are numerous enemies in Legends 2 whose behavior takes full advantage of it.
Not saying such a game can't be great, it can. I think it looks really freaking awesome. But it can't be Legends.
The Dual Shock would need hundreds of buttons just to fully recognize every single different imput an analog can do in every single position it can be.
Although pressure sensitivity doesn't really work on many games, my point is that it exists. Makes analog sticks closer to button imput than a pointer.
And anything would beat the hell out of using 4 buttons to move a camera. Using page up and page down would beat the hell out of those. Using a crank to move the perspective through the console mechanically while making sure the steam engine has enough coal would beat those 4 buttons. 4-button camera movement is probably the worst kind of imput one can have.
Metroid Prime's genre has been widely debated. I believe it's a first person shooter. But you won't find a single sane person who will call Jak a "third person shooter". Is Final Fantasy VII a first person shooter? Well it's in the third person, and you can select Barret to shoot things. That's an awful example. And YES. Jak 2 introduced weapons in the franchise, but there are two different melee attacks you've been able to use since the very first game, and they're still maintained as primary attacks. One of which is the spin attack from Crash Bandicoot, which is used with the Circle button, and the other is a punching move, which is used with the Square button. And even if the weapon was the only attack in the game, the fact remains that you don't get to AIM it properly. Thus, it's not a third-person shooter, and you won't find it defined as one anywhere. Heck, the game has a full racing gameplay engine, which is used several times within the game and which is way better than alot of racers on the market. Is it a racing game? No. It's a free-roaming platform game.
Gears of War has a slow player movement because it's supposed to mimic regular human movement. But you can sprint and dodge in the game, and there's a perfectly good melee attack with the saw. Every single TPS game worth a damn has a powerful melee attack to take out enemies on combat at a close distance, which actually makes close distance a much better alternative, as you don't waste ammo that way. For the player to willingly dodge INTO an enemy was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in any gameplay video, but whatever. That video is still faster than any Legends gameplay I've seen. The aiming is smooth, you can take out several enemies without needing any kind of lock-on, and turning doesn't take the sluggish movement I've seen in Legends videos. If you want fast-paced games in terms of constant player movement, check out Vanquish. It's pretty much being built as a Gears of War where you can jetpack all over the place.
For a use of lock-on in current gaming, check out MGS4, or MGS: Peace Walker. The player can choose whether to aim at enemies with a free aim, or locked on. If you aim freely, you can aim at the enemy's head and do a headshot with a single bullet, as well as taking out their legs to cripple them, or taking out their weapon arm so they can't use it. When you use lock-on, you [tornado fang] up the general aim and you just aim at the center of the enemy, which not only takes alot more time to kill, is prone to failure, and will inevitably sound an alert sooner or later.
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The Dual Shock would need hundreds of buttons just to fully recognize every single different imput an analog can do in every single position it can be.
My point. An analogue joystick is not a pointer, and is not a button. Get it?
For a use of lock-on in current gaming, check out MGS4, or MGS: Peace Walker. The player can choose whether to aim at enemies with a free aim, or locked on. If you aim freely, you can aim at the enemy's head and do a headshot with a single bullet, as well as taking out their legs to cripple them, or taking out their weapon arm so they can't use it. When you use lock-on, you [tornado fang] up the general aim and you just aim at the center of the enemy, which not only takes alot more time to kill, is prone to failure, and will inevitably sound an alert sooner or later.
Any game worth its save data will feature some type of look-around, and yes the right stick is an obvious fit for that. It's a matter of focus. Which is primary, and which is secondary.
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My point. An analogue joystick is not a pointer, and is not a button. Get it?
My point was that it had button-like imput.
Any game worth its save data will feature some type of look-around, and yes the right stick is an obvious fit for that. It's a matter of focus. Which is primary, and which is secondary.
Um... have no idea how your previous point goes into this, but... okay. I do maintain that a right stick is the best way to control the camera/aiming in any videogame in which you have a controller. Direct screen aiming without turning, yeah, a Wii pointer will be precise enough. But with the necessary fast-paced approach to gaming that's required from something like this... an analog is the only way to handle it.
I now leave you with some awesome fast-paced and accurate Timesplitters 2 gameplay. Still one of the tightest controls an FPS has ever had.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZiu_1bopWo&feature=related[/youtube]
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PB: I disagree with them being comparitive in the soap level. Because honestly, most Anime isn't that long drawn out like comics tend to be with this stuff. Or horribly convoluted with the way they constantly pull something new out of their ass. But...
They have so many soap-opera like stories though. Especially recently. They are just more ludicrous and actually lack the ability to decently write endings. LoL, and comics have to keep pulling something new out of their ass. It's called innovation & storytelling. Green Lantern is the greatest example of this currently, and Spider-Man is the worst example of it probably in comic book history. The only difference between it and anime is just that anime keeps pulling new [parasitic bomb] out of their ass with new animes/characters/etc. However comic book characters are more iconic and mythological, therefore getting rid of them is out of the question.
Ono adds on some more tweet-teasing...
- http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18199679128 (http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18199679128)
*o* Can't wait...
Haha, love the background image!
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They have so many soap-opera like stories though. Especially recently. They are just more ludicrous and actually lack the ability to decently write endings. LoL, and comics have to keep pulling something new out of their ass. It's called innovation & storytelling. Green Lantern is the greatest example of this currently, and Spider-Man is the worst example of it probably in comic book history. The only difference between it and anime is just that anime keeps pulling new [parasitic bomb] out of their ass with new animes/characters/etc. However comic book characters are more iconic and mythological, therefore getting rid of them is out of the question.
Anime tend to be MORE like soaps than comics, even. XD I swear, comics have relied on the same kind of plot many times, specially during the 90's/00's, where there was a stagnation of actual storylines, and the modern age started to be more about "attitude" and how "xxx-treme" everything was. But it's amazing how recently, they're trying to push a big effort into changing that. Vertigo comics, for example, I don't think you'll find a single one which reads like a soap opera (okay, okay, Fables is quite soap-ish =P) and currently, Batman, for example, reads as if you're watching Lost with ten conspiracy theories at the same time which envelop around every single important storyline he's ever been in, and it's enthralling, because you have to keep unreavelling a puzzle, the whole storyline reads in a progressive sort of way. The Brightest Day event is trying something that has been done before, although in a different way. It's basically another 52, in a bit event kind of manner. A way to make us care about small-time, underused characters in the DCU, that when pushed into the limelight, have a BIG chance to shine through. Superman just went through a reinvention himself. His planet has been brought back, he served as an ambassador, only for they to betray him and end up attacking Earth. His home planet was destroyed again, with SERIOUS changes to the canon (escaped Kryptonians everywhere) and right now, he's going through a rough time, going walkabout around the US, trying to rediscover his home and the reason why he should keep fighting in the first place. Green Lantern, as you previously said, has been attempting to both bring back good elements from the story, while form a huge cosmic storyline, bringing all sorts of new elements, and changing the main canon quite alot (Sinestro is growing up to be quite the partner), Hal and Carol's relationship is FINALLY going somewhere, and everything seems to be in a stable direction. And Marvel, for all of its [tornado fang]-ups, has had its cosmic storylines be WAY more than any soap opera could be, involving Gods and incredible forces, cosmic powers constantly clashing, and amazing things happening. Although comic characters HAVE to stay for the sake of the industry, they keep getting refreshed in new ways. And heck, in the last year, both Batman and Superman were replaced for quite awhile. The big two. If stuff like that can happen, there can be alot of variations as to not make the story tiring.
And as much as I watch recent anime, I find it VERY hard not for them to step in a hole full of the very same stereotypes that doom all anime. Characters have a strict setup of a few personalities which are used everywhere, pretty much keep saying and doing the same things in dialogue, girls have VERY FEW ADIFFERENT PERSONALITIES and pretty much no individuality at all, stories keep borrowing elements from one another without anything special happening to those elements, long-winded stories keep getting worse, while season-sized stories rarely fully entertain someone with an AMAZING storyline. Same with video games. There are very, very, veeeeeery few games I've seen recently with any narrative elements at all that have amazed me. RPGs keep having the same cast all over again on japanese gaming, while western gaming thrives on the space marine industry. And GOOD stories like on Yakuza or Red Dead Redemption are really hard to find. On anime, I see moeblobs everywhere (they're a fad now aparently) and few actual good stories.
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comics are soap-like because they never end like some soaps, they just go on and on and on
some anime series are like this too
like pokemon
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comics are soap-like because they never end like some soaps, they just go on and on and on
some anime series are like this too
like pokemon
This, because I don't feel like contesting and fighting walls of text anymore. Writing to do.
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Just because something doesn't end, doesn't mean it's like a soap.
Star Wars/Star Trek is a soap? Is Metroid a soap? =P They're neverending stories too. Only difference is the rate at which they come out.
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Star Wars/Star Trek is a soap?
To be fair, a lot of Star Trek was soap-ish after Berman took over. Hell, DS9 started off very soap-ish, but then eventually became REALLY [tornado fang]ing good.
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I liked DS9 because of Quark...
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Question from a TOS/TNG fan who's never watched the other series.
What's so bad about Enterprise? My girlfriend's watching, and she's loving it.
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1. Series burnout, because Star Trek had been on the air constantly for about 20 years at that point.
2. Genre saturation; TNG was the only sci-fi show on TV at that point. When Enterprise came out, there was a whole channel for it.
3. Storyline glut; TOS/TNG had piled on so much history into what had happened that Enterprise became a historical. And quite frankly, few people are into seeing a historical, and Star Trek fans are notoriously "wankish" about details. And those who aren't Star Trek fans don't care and watch it.
4. Tech issues; when TOS came out, there was all sorts of future tech, which was cool. Enterprise, taking place 100 years before TOS needed worse tech. However, when Enterprise came out, our real-life tech was advanced.
5. Also, bad casting issues. Namely, Scott Bakula.
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1. Series burnout, because Star Trek had been on the air constantly for about 20 years at that point.
2. Genre saturation; TNG was the only sci-fi show on TV at that point. When Enterprise came out, there was a whole channel for it.
3. Storyline glut; TOS/TNG had piled on so much history into what had happened that Enterprise became a historical. And quite frankly, few people are into seeing a historical, and Star Trek fans are notoriously "wankish" about details. And those who aren't Star Trek fans don't care and watch it.
4. Tech issues; when TOS came out, there was all sorts of future tech, which was cool. Enterprise, taking place 100 years before TOS needed worse tech. However, when Enterprise came out, our real-life tech was advanced.
5. Also, bad casting issues. Namely, Scott Bakula.
Take away the whole rest of Star Trek, the fans that WANT certain somethings from Star Trek, and the canon-obcesseds. And tell me from just a regular ol' person's point of view, what is the problem with Enterprise. Because historical-wise, the plot doesn't seem to have problems. Sure, unlikeable Vulcan, which might've caused alot of fans to capsize, but other than that, I honestly don't know what makes it so, sooooo bad, from the reputation I've heard of it. I've been watching a few, and although I've watched all of TOS, the cartoon and alot of TNG, I seriously don't incredibly yearn for tiny details and stuff like that. So far, the whole thing seems to have a good plot, I like the cast, and it's got potencial.
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Well take away all that, and it's a fine show. You asked what was wrong with it, and I gave you the reasons. Albeit, I asked my roommate for that, so it was her view, not mine. I have no problem with Enterprise myself.
Those are the reasons why Enterprise is called BAD though. And the entirety of the bitching originated with the Trekkies.
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Ono was going to Vegas to play the slot machines. XD
The back-and-forth made me laugh a lot. >U<
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Ono was going to Vegas to play the slot machines. XD
The back-and-forth made me laugh a lot. >U<
I'm thinking that's not all he's gonna play with while he's in Vegas. 8D
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Ono: "No matter what kind of ideas you all might have, we have something WAY better to offer. But I can't say more unless I want my boss Inafune hunt me down with a pitch fork."
A summary of his speech after they showed Marvel 3 at EVO. ^^;
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Ono: "No matter what kind of ideas you all might have, we have something WAY better to offer. But I can't say more unless I want my boss Inafune hunt me down with a pitch fork."
A summary of his speech after they showed Marvel 3 at EVO. ^^;
Basically, we're right back with "wait til Comic-con~". 8D
Fine by me. I still think that the likes of the "Capcom vs. SNK 3" wishers are going to be the ones that are left cold this time. Ono has even admitted on his twitter that Capcom vs. SNK is not likely going to be a reality for a good while because he's so "busy".
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1. Series burnout, because Star Trek had been on the air constantly for about 20 years at that point.
2. Genre saturation; TNG was the only sci-fi show on TV at that point. When Enterprise came out, there was a whole channel for it.
3. Storyline glut; TOS/TNG had piled on so much history into what had happened that Enterprise became a historical. And quite frankly, few people are into seeing a historical, and Star Trek fans are notoriously "wankish" about details. And those who aren't Star Trek fans don't care and watch it.
4. Tech issues; when TOS came out, there was all sorts of future tech, which was cool. Enterprise, taking place 100 years before TOS needed worse tech. However, when Enterprise came out, our real-life tech was advanced.
5. Also, bad casting issues. Namely, Scott Bakula.
1. It's not that the series had burned out. It's simply that people just got done with Voyager, which wasn't good to begin with. Sure, there were some good episodes in the series, but the bad episodes far outweighed the good, from what I saw of it. Enterprise continued on with that philosophy, from what little I watched of it. I watched the first 5 episodes of Enterprise, and I thought it was boring and badly written, not to mention the first episode having to do with time travel, which can be a recipe for disaster.
2. Um, TNG ended way before Enterprise began. Also, it did not have a whole channel for it.
3. The issue was on the fact that the ship was called Enterprise to began with. Pretty much all historical data specified that Capt. Pike's ship was the first ship to be named Enterprise, especially the TNG episode Relics, in which Scotty asks the computer to show him the bridge of his Enterprise, and the computer tells him that there were 5 ships with that name. If you count the D, C, B, A, and the original, well then that's it. There is a theory that because of the events that took place during the movie Star Trek: First Contact, it altered history and that's why they named the first starship Enterprise. Heh, if you're going to retcon [parasitic bomb], have the decency to tell your fans.
4. Tech wasn't the issue, really. It's just that a good portion of the opening stories weren't very good. If anything, the idea of the first starship's tech was interesting, plus the notion of them inventing shields & phasers could have been appealing. Again, perhaps if they didn't name the ship Enterprise, give the show the awful opening song, and Rick Berman didn't have his hand in it, it could've been better. Hell, it might have been actually. I only watched the first 5 episodes, along with a 2 parter which tells of the origins of the Mirror Universe, which is actually very well done.
5. Actually, Scott Bakula was pretty good. A good portion of the cast were good, save maybe for T'Boobs, the busty Vulcan chick who somehow always found herself in the decontamination chamber. Overall, I think the problem were the stories. I'll explain further...
You see, when TNG first came out, the first season while interesting, did not have some of the best caliber stories as some of the later seasons of TNG. However, cause this was a brand new Star Trek series, after about 20 years of the original being off the air, fans probably didn't notice it as much. Plus, the new characters were very interesting. When Season 2 came around, the stories and writing started to improve, especially the episode where Q introduced them to the Borg. It's one of the best Star Trek episodes ever. Then Season 3 came around with much better effects, even better stories, and a season finale which, for all intents and purposes, is one of the greatest Star Trek & Sci-Fi stories ever told.
So around Season 5 or 6 they came out with DS9, which started off very slowly, probably worse than TNG, in terms of the story department. Berman literally described it, at one point, as a "space soap-opera" which is a horrible tag line to give your newly minted SCIENCE FICTION show. However, TNG for the most part, was still going strong so this could be overlooked. Then TNG finished and all that was left was DS9, which was still struggling a bit. It was getting slightly more interesting, but still not that great. So then Voyager came out. Voyager started off somewhat interestingly, although I'm not a fan of the first episode at all, mainly cause it's pretty boring. However, the premise of Voyager was actually pretty good. Voyager's problem was that the stories weren't very good, and really weren't getting better, while DS9 was starting to produce some of the best Star Trek ever, when they brought in Worf, the threat of the Dominion, and when Sisko transformed into BaldGoatee Sisko.
Then came the TNG movies, which for the most part, are pretty awful, at least in the context of continuity and story telling. Generations needs to not exist, First Contact is entertaining, but stupid, Insurrection is a long episode of the show, and not one of the better episodes, and Nemesis is also enjoyable, but has some interesting and pretty big plot holes. However, since we're still around the Generations-First Contact movie frame, DS9 was the best Star Trek on. Once that ended, all we were left with was Voyager, which started to improve slightly mind you (and I don't mean because of Seven of Tits either). It was still boring at too many times, the bad episodes still outweighed the good, and the ending to Voyager went the TNG route and involved Time Travel, except didn't do it as well. Not even close actually. Of course it might also have to do with the fact that I don't like the idea of the Borg Queen at ALL.
At this point, a lot of fans wanted them to give Star Trek a rest for a bit, or perhaps maybe a TNG-DS9 movie. Plus, around this time you had much better sci-fi shows on television, like Farscape or maybe even Stargate SG1 (if you liked the show). So when they gave us Enterprise, the idea was intriguing, but there were some questions, like why was the ship named Enterprise, when Pike's Enterprise was the first? Why go pre-Kirk or even pre-Pike? But, like a good fan, I watched Enterprise and gave it a shot. After 5 episodes, I was so bored that I just decided to stop. There was much better sci-fi on TV, and I wasn't enough of a Trekkie to force myself to watch anymore. Now, it's possible that the show got better. In fact, some people I've talked to said that the last 2-3 seasons of the show weren't that bad, cept for the ending. So I really don't know much about Enterprise. However I don't really see a reason to ever watch it. I managed to watch the only 2 parter I was curious about, which was the Mirror Universe one, and it was pretty good. Still not good enough to make me watch the series though.
Ono: "No matter what kind of ideas you all might have, we have something WAY better to offer. But I can't say more unless I want my boss Inafune hunt me down with a pitch fork."
A summary of his speech after they showed Marvel 3 at EVO. ^^;
A pitchfork? I figured he's use a Mega Buster! XD
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PB: I meant that when TNG was on, there was no Sci-Fi channel. When Enterprise came on, Sci-Fi existed. I meant for the genre, not the series.
And those are my roommate's feelings, not mine. As I said, I don't mind Enterprise or any of the shows in the slightest. Then again, I'm not a superfan that's anal about the details. Then again, neither is my roommate. Who also just bitched me out for using what she said even though she said it so I could use it...
Ahem. Regardless, good points all.
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PB: I meant that when TNG was on, there was no Sci-Fi channel. When Enterprise came on, Sci-Fi existed. I meant for the genre, not the series.
And those are my roommate's feelings, not mine. As I said, I don't mind Enterprise or any of the shows in the slightest. Then again, I'm not a superfan that's anal about the details. Then again, neither is my roommate. Who also just bitched me out for using what she said even though she said it so I could use it...
Ahem. Regardless, good points all.
Ah, that's what you meant. Because your #1 makes no sense otherwise. Especially because there were other sci-fi shows on during the time of TNG.
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Yeah, glad that was cleared up. ;D
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Next time though, if you don't fully know details about something, then perhaps don't post about the subject you don't know about.
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Nice points. So basically, it was the fact that back then, there had been an awesome show, where the franchise was at its best, and then an oversaturation of the genre with space soap operas which just tended to keep on going. So, as the last show, and not only breaking continuity a bit, but on a different place chronologically, it's a show where fans decided that it wasn't worth the effort, huh? I can understand it. But watching it now, it really does seem to be worth it. And from what I've heard of its reputation, Season 2 gets really good, and a bit more actiony. Not to mention it's got a few quite entertaining characters, like Phlox. Still, I'll keep on watching. I think it's aged well, and it's pretty good Trek.
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Nice points. So basically, it was the fact that back then, there had been an awesome show, where the franchise was at its best, and then an oversaturation of the genre with space soap operas which just tended to keep on going. So, as the last show, and not only breaking continuity a bit, but on a different place chronologically, it's a show where fans decided that it wasn't worth the effort, huh? I can understand it. But watching it now, it really does seem to be worth it. And from what I've heard of its reputation, Season 2 gets really good, and a bit more actiony. Not to mention it's got a few quite entertaining characters, like Phlox. Still, I'll keep on watching. I think it's aged well, and it's pretty good Trek.
Phlox was probably one of the more interesting characters on the show. Heh, I always wondered if he was an early race of Cardassian, since he kinda looks like one. Also, the idea of an alien doctor made sense since this was the first true starship voyage. Plus it was nice to have a communications officer once again, as by the 24th Century, tactical pretty much handled that. Yoshi was also kinda cute too. (I love her in the Mirror Universe episode).
Honestly though, it's good to hear that Enterprise got somewhat better. The potential, like with Voyager, was always there. The real problem with Star Trek now is where do you go from here? I 100% love the movie, but it's using established characters, re-establishing them, and sadly they can only be used for movies, because there's no way you can get that cast, lemme rephrase, that BRILLIANT cast again for a TV series. If they did, it'd possibly be one of the greatest shows on TV. But it's not going to happen.
So in terms of a new series, the only real place to go is back to the 24th Century or further. The Alpha Quadrant would be interesting now that Romulus is destroyed, not to mention the Cardassian Empire in ruins after the Dominion War (even though Romulus' destruction comes some years after DS9's ending). Personally, I always thought an entertaining Star Trek series would be one that took place in the Mirror Universe, in which it shows humanity trying to reclaim & rebuild it's empire. The one awesome theory brought up by First Contact is that it was the Enterprise E traveling back in time to the time of First Contact that split the two universes in the first place. The theory is that the Mirror Universe is actually the true universe, and that it was that incident in First Contact which created the universe we know and love. Nothing proven or anything, but still, I think it's "fascinating."
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You can't forget the lack of Borg.
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Actually, after First Contact.....or maybe even the TNG episode Decent, the Borg got overused and kinda whored out. Especially in Voyager.
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Well they're dead now. So does it matter?
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How are they dead?
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Wasn't the cube destroyed at the end of Voyager?
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If I remember correctly, it was just a huge subspace gateway station. I don't think it was the whole of the Borg.
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Just checked a Star Trek wiki...
And you're right. My bad. Eh, oh well.
...a crippling blow was delivered to the Borg when Voyager discovered one of their transwarp hubs and destroyed it...
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I watched Voyager much longer than I should have, really. I really liked the concept, and I guess I really hoped it would pan through. Unfortunately, that didn't quite happen. There was moments where it's potential shone through, but it never quite lasted. I still have to go watch later on in DS9, since I had given up on it when it was still in Soap Opera mode.
As far as the topic at hand, I'm looking forward to see what they show. Not getting my hopes up for anything, mind you, since I know better than to do that :P
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You can't forget the lack of Borg.
There's a lack of Borg in TOS, too. =P Doesn't make it bad.
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On the thread's original subject, I would love a new Capcom vs. SNK. Pretty sure someone already said that. Still, yum, yum, yum~
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I watched Voyager much longer than I should have, really. I really liked the concept, and I guess I really hoped it would pan through. Unfortunately, that didn't quite happen. There was moments where it's potential shone through, but it never quite lasted. I still have to go watch later on in DS9, since I had given up on it when it was still in Soap Opera mode.
And that's the real tragedy of Voyager. It was SUCH a great idea. Unlike any other Star Trek series, it had the potential for true, new exploration, as well as suspense. Where they are, there's no Federation, nor a Starbase where they could go for repairs after a battle. There's only the unknown, mystery, needing to barter and needing help along the way, and the long journey home with two separate crews having to overcome previous differences to work together. It was a FANTASTIC idea, undermined by poor writing, boring stories, and quite frankly, somewhat boring characters. Although, I don't know if they were boring, or just badly written. I'll go with badly written.
But yeah, go watch later DS9, around the time they bring Worf on. It's some of the best Trek ever.
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Whatever the Capcom game turns out to be, as long as it's not Image vs Capcom, I'm good.
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Hmmmmm....!
"A little birdie tells us Namco vs Capcom will be announced next Saturday. It's Namco, so it will certainly be in arcades."
- http://twitter.com/arcadeufo
Source sounds pretty plausible, as this is a rather famous arcade in Texas. Among other things, it's the only Arcade in the Continental US which has Gundam vs. Gundam NEXT.
How very interesting...as long as it's not "Tekken v SF", I guess I can't be too mad (despite my real want). Oh, and as long as they diversify themselves beyond the rather tepid "Ryu, Chun-li and Morrigan" combo. They're all already going to be in MvC3 as it is, let some other guys and girls get a chance to shine (especially if Ryu has to be in there any way). Akira from Rival Schools and Jon Talbain from Darkstalkers have been long overdue for reappearing in ANYTHING, for example...
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Very interesting indeed.
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Hmmmmm....!
- http://twitter.com/arcadeufo
Source sounds pretty plausible, as this is a rather famous arcade in Texas. Among other things, it's the only Arcade in the Continental US which has Gundam vs. Gundam NEXT.
How very interesting...as long as it's not "Tekken v SF", I guess I can't be too mad (despite my real want). Oh, and as long as they diversify themselves beyond the rather tepid "Ryu, Chun-li and Morrigan" combo. They're all already going to be in MvC3 as it is, let some other guys and girls get a chance to shine (especially if Ryu has to be in there any way). Akira from Rival Schools and Jon Talbain from Darkstalkers have been long overdue for reappearing in ANYTHING, for example...
Since they spoiled their chances last time with that SRPG, I'm hoping they wise up and let us beat the [parasitic bomb] out of each other.
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A proper Namco VS Capcom would be better than Tekken VS SF. I'm sure it'll have Ryu, Chun Li and Morrigan, it's become like some sort of rule that the 3 of them have to be in every VS Capcom game. More importantly though I wonder what they'll do with the gameplay, would be cool if they did like with the SNK vs Capcom series and both companies get to make a game each (lets conveniently forget SvC:Chaos and just consider the NGPC VS game and the cardfighter series for SNK's side if you want), Capcom does a 2D fighter and Namco does a 3D one some time later. I think it could be interesting that way.
Also, yes, Talbain really needs to get some attention, I say we need more werewolves.
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A proper Namco VS Capcom would be better than Tekken VS SF. I'm sure it'll have Ryu, Chun Li and Morrigan, it's become like some sort of rule that the 3 of them have to be in every VS Capcom game. More importantly though I wonder what they'll do with the gameplay, would be cool if they did like with the SNK vs Capcom series and both companies get to make a game each (lets conveniently forget SvC:Chaos and just consider the NGPC VS game and the cardfighter series for SNK's side if you want), Capcom does a 2D fighter and Namco does a 3D one some time later. I think it could be interesting that way.
Also, yes, Talbain really needs to get some attention, I say we need more werewolves.
All as long as I can get my cast of characters in it.
And that means Klonoa, Pac-Man, Yoshimitsu, Presea and Maxi as available characters.
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All as long as I can get my cast of characters in it.
And that means Klonoa, Pac-Man, Yoshimitsu, Presea and Maxi as available characters.
Your last round of characters is fine, but if this is going to be a more "serious/traditional" fighting game? Then, really, I don't need to see too many "silly characters" like Klonoa, Pac-Man, Frank West or even Rockman. That's what the "Marvel" style games are for. For this to be a clash between the two companies who are both known for their arcade fighting games, and their nigh-legendary competition in the arcade arena, I'd rather such a x-over game do more to focus on that. Just like the SNK and Capcom fighters did as such a decade ago.
So, in essence: Street Fighter. Tekken. Rival Schools. Soul Calibur. Darkstalkers. Tales of... (close enough, the series has been citing FGs since its inception). Stick with those series that do the most to lend themselves to a traditional fighting game setting first. Then, if there's room, maybe add in a special "WTF?!?" addition per side like X or Pac-Man.
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/happyface
This news pleases me!
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Your last round of characters is fine, but if this is going to be a more "serious/traditional" fighting game? Then, really, I don't need to see too many "silly characters" like Klonoa, Pac-Man, Frank West or even Rockman. That's what the "Marvel" style games are for. For this to be a clash between the two companies who are both known for their arcade fighting games, and their nigh-legendary competition in the arcade arena, I'd rather such a x-over game do more to focus on that. Just like the SNK and Capcom fighters did as such a decade ago.
So, in essence: Street Fighter. Tekken. Rival Schools. Soul Calibur. Darkstalkers. Tales of... (close enough, the series has been citing FGs since its inception). Stick with those series that do the most to lend themselves to a traditional fighting game setting first. Then, if there's room, maybe add in a special "WTF?!?" addition per side like X or Pac-Man.
You're talking about a straight crossover between characters to be a 100% solid fighter with optimal, straight-from-the-original-games movesets, in order to be a kind of ultimate fighting game starring every single character from main arcade fighting franchises, perfect for tournaments and the like.
...I say screw that. 8D Bring on incredibly broken rosters and funny crap happening all over.
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I'd like to play as Lolo from Klonoa 2. :cookie:
And from "Tales"? Tear Grants, Cheria Barnes, Sheena Fujibayashi, Judith... Presea is good too. <3
From Soul Calibur? Cassandra and Sophitia. C:
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Since they spoiled their chances last time with that SRPG, I'm hoping they wise up and let us beat the [parasitic bomb] out of each other.
It was a very good SRPG though ^^
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Yea, I really liked Namco x Capcom, specially half-way where I got to slice things with Strider. And KOS-MOS was powerful too. ^^;
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Yea, I really liked Namco x Capcom, specially half-way where I got to slice things with Strider. And KOS-MOS was powerful too. ^^;
Namco X Capcom was good, but I really couldn't play it in its heyday. Just when the translation patch came out, and I already stopped caring about it as much. =P
And if they're going all-out, they should put something like a Ridge Racer car. To one-up the Daytona car in Fighters Megamix. =P
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Yea, I really liked Namco x Capcom, specially half-way where I got to slice things with Strider. And KOS-MOS was powerful too. ^^;
IIRC, KOS-MOS in my game was almost unstoppable >w< Gil was a very good "tank" too ^^
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I would like to play that sometime. Man would I like to play that.
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I would like to play that sometime. Man would I like to play that.
Download it and use the patch.
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Namco X Capcom was good, but I really couldn't play it in its heyday. Just when the translation patch came out, and I already stopped caring about it as much. =P
And if they're going all-out, they should put something like a Ridge Racer car. To one-up the Daytona car in Fighters Megamix. =P
Yes, a Mario-Kart-ish stage would suffice. Having cars ram Ryu (or even Morrigan or some other female bi-atch with enough popularity to compare her to peach) would be entertaining.
For me.. I'd like to see suprise entries. KOSMOS, Sheena Fujiasbi, and the like sound pretty predictable. SUPRISE MEE (Yes, Snake was a nice suprise in brawl, I'd like to see some suprises in this game)!! :P
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(or even Morrigan or some other female bi-atch with enough popularity to compare her to peach)
...what? ^^;
For me.. I'd like to see suprise entries. KOSMOS, Sheena Fujiasbi, and the like sound pretty predictable. SUPRISE MEE (Yes, Snake was a nice suprise in brawl, I'd like to see some suprises in this game)!! :P
As much as I luff KOS-MOS, I wouldn't consider her all that surprising seeing as see appears in LOTS of namco games ^^;
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...what? ^^;
As much as I luff KOS-MOS, I wouldn't consider her all that surprising seeing as see appears in LOTS of namco games ^^;
I've been stalking at TSR's underworld that is spamhaul, which explains much.
And yes that's true, with that many appearances makes her feel like the company mascot of RPGs.
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Before we hope for characters in the "fighting" Namco vs Capcom, let them finished their casts MvC3 completely first.
Now you guys mention it, I would like to see KOS-MOS X-Busting Rockman X. Reiji&Shaomu could make a great character and moves, see OG Saga Exceed for example.
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Now you guys mention it, I would like to see KOS-MOS X-Busting Rockman X.
Doesn't anyone remember that scuffle in Card Sagas? But that's highly unlikely. X's busy doing shiz in Korea right now, so I don't think he has the time to fight some other android.
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Reiji&Shaomu could make a great character and moves, see OG Saga Exceed for example.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they appeared in it either because of that other series they keep appearing in x3 (also with KOS-MOS)
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You're talking about a straight crossover between characters to be a 100% solid fighter with optimal, straight-from-the-original-games movesets, in order to be a kind of ultimate fighting game starring every single character from main arcade fighting franchises, perfect for tournaments and the like.
...I say screw that. 8D Bring on incredibly broken rosters and funny crap happening all over.
Again though, what's the point, if MvC3 looks to be doing JUST THAT, already? You can make a much better case for not "over-saturating" the market, when you at least release significantly different products! 8D
You're getting Deadpool hitting people with lifebars. You're getting Ryu AIMING his Shinkuu Hadouken. You're getting Dante being "This Party is gettin' CRAY-ZAY!"...all in another fighting game that looks to be able to tickle the mainstream and core alike. That's perfectly fine, it's its own product that has to cater to fighting game fans, comic book fans and casual fans who just want to mash and see bright n pretty colors. In that light, it's doing the work that its direct predecessor did.
Namco vs. Capcom, however, could stand to be (or rather, SHOULD be) the "Capcom vs. SNK 2" of this millennium. The cross-over game for the designated fighting game fans. Just like the 90s were the stage for Capcom and SNK, the 00s were definitely more of a Namco/Capcom party. And now we stand to have a game that pays tribute to that highly spirited rivalry that vied for quarters/yen in arcades during that era.
Obviously, since Namco doesn't have the catalog of fighters that Capcom does, they're going to have to fill in the blanks with possibilities like Tales of, Valkryie (just have her fight like Cassandra, the joke's already done!), Bravoman, Xenosaga, The Genji and the Heike Clans, a random from Time Crisis and etc. But for the most part, like CvS before it, this Vs. game should predominantly be much more "serious" in tone than its Marvel counter-part. Not only for the sake of variety, but for the sake of us fighting game fans who would appreciate something of that sort.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they appeared in it either because of that other series they keep appearing in x3 (also with KOS-MOS)
No thanks. Keep "original characters" who have no real historical relevance to what's at hand, out of a game like this. 8D
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I haven't played them yet, but I'm glad Reiji and Xiaomu still have a place somewhere at least. As I've said recently somewhere, it's the closest thing to a sequel they'll get ^^;
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Again though, what's the point, if MvC3 looks to be doing JUST THAT, already? You can make a much better case for not "over-saturating" the market, when you at least release significantly different products! 8D
You're getting Deadpool hitting people with lifebars. You're getting Ryu AIMING his Shinkuu Hadouken. You're getting Dante being "This Party is gettin' CRAY-ZAY!"...all in another fighting game that looks to be able to tickle the mainstream and core alike. That's perfectly fine, it's its own product that has to cater to fighting game fans, comic book fans and casual fans who just want to mash and see bright n pretty colors. In that light, it's doing the work that its direct predecessor did.
Namco vs. Capcom, however, could stand to be (or rather, SHOULD be) the "Capcom vs. SNK 2" of this millennium. The cross-over game for the designated fighting game fans. Just like the 90s were the stage for Capcom and SNK, the 00s were definitely more of a Namco/Capcom party. And now we stand to have a game that pays tribute to that highly spirited rivalry that vied for quarters/yen in arcades during that era.
Obviously, since Namco doesn't have the catalog of fighters that Capcom does, they're going to have to fill in the blanks with possibilities like Tales of, Valkryie (just have her fight like Cassandra, the joke's already done!), Bravoman, Xenosaga, The Genji and the Heike Clans, a random from Time Crisis and etc. But for the most part, like CvS before it, this Vs. game should predominantly be much more "serious" in tone than its Marvel counter-part. Not only for the sake of variety, but for the sake of us fighting game fans who would appreciate something of that sort.
No thanks. Keep "original characters" who have no real historical relevance to what's at hand, out of a game like this. 8D
That makes sense. What also does, is that Capcom's been developing quite alot of fighting games recently. SF4, Tatsu, and now MvsC3. It makes sense that they would do something like this, absolutely. But I don't think they'll make another big-name fighting game before they finish MvsC3. There's alot of currently unhappy fans of other genres who they still need to appease, and Capcom isn't the kind of company to leave people hanging for so long in this way. Sure, such a game will come by eventually. But they should also turn their eyes toward other stuff. And seeing as this is a Comic-con revealed game, as I said earlier, it's gonna be a western audience-appeasing game. And I don't see a straight "fighting game for professional fighting game fans only" doing that.
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That makes sense. What also does, is that Capcom's been developing quite alot of fighting games recently. SF4, Tatsu, and now MvsC3. It makes sense that they would do something like this, absolutely. But I don't think they'll make another big-name fighting game before they finish MvsC3.
It wouldn't be the first time, certainly. MvC2 and CvS came out literally MONTHS apart from one another in the year 2000. And then CvS2 came almost immediately the following year. 8D
There's alot of currently unhappy fans of other genres who they still need to appease, and Capcom isn't the kind of company to leave people hanging for so long in this way. Sure, such a game will come by eventually. But they should also turn their eyes toward other stuff. And seeing as this is a Comic-con revealed game, as I said earlier, it's gonna be a western audience-appeasing game. And I don't see a straight "fighting game for professional fighting game fans only" doing that.
Capcom will turn their eyes towards other stuff, perhaps when there really is a pressing need that showcases that it needs to be addressed. But as it stands right now, SF4's mainstream and hardcore success has only given Capcom open license to ride this "fighting game revival!" gravy train for as long as it lasts. And hell, Namco could stand to have a nice diversion to help wash away the memory of the commercial flop that Tekken 6 ended up being, while they plan for anything ranging from Tekken 7 and/or SC5 on their own end.
In other words...while the iron's hot, there's no reason for Capcom to not continue to RUSH DAT [parasitic bomb] DOWN.
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I hear that. I'm completely in favor of this fighter revival.
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I hear that. I'm completely in favor of this fighter revival.
Me too, but if they milk the cow too much, they must be vary of bad results. There's a reason the fighting genre "died".
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Me too, but if they milk the cow too much, they must be vary of bad results. There's a reason the fighting genre "died".
There's not really any one answer to why the FG had an implosion, but rather a number of different factors that eventually all worked together to that end. But on Capcom's part, it probably had to do more with how they didn't diversify from SF soon enough, while they had the chance. By the time Capcom actually DID offer some new things in the form of Darkstalkers, Marvel, Cyberbots and the like, competition in the form of SNK, Midway, Namco, ASW and Sega had already done enough to fill the market with some new flavors to consumers who wanted more beyond "Moar SF". Some thing had to give, and that's perhaps why the likes of Capcom's own Darkstalkers and the first-run of SFIII:3S did more to suffer in a market where Capcom wasn't the uncontested top dog any more.
So, that's why I'm thankful that, thus far, signs point that this upcoming game will NOT be SF5. SF4 was able to set Capcom up, once again, as a leader in the genre, if not "the". But from there, it's completely on them to showcase that they won't make the same mistake twice. If they can at least operate on the standpoint of having SF, MvC and this new franchise as the three "main" fighting franchises for the next few years, they'll stand to have 3 different flavors that cover as many different bases as possible, without over-extending themselves.
EDIT:
(http://p.twipple.jp/data/U/9/A/D/L.jpg)
Yet another picture teased from Ono's twitter. Judging by this, it seems safe to presume that the trailer Ono wants to present at his panel has to relate to the upcoming SSF4 arcade release. But what about that picture peek out from the bottom with the brown hair sticking up. That definitely ain't no Tekken character hair. In fact, it definitely looks more like the do of a certain, very familiar bloodsucker... *o*
Gyat dammit, Ono! He's gonna keep us guessing until next weekend! 8D
Of course, on the other hand, maybe that gives rise to the notion that the Namco v Capcom thing could be Namco's undertaking...
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There's not really any one answer to why the FG had an implosion, but rather a number of different factors that eventually all worked together to that end. But on Capcom's part, it probably had to do more with how they didn't diversify from SF soon enough, while they had the chance. By the time Capcom actually DID offer some new things in the form of Darkstalkers, Marvel, Cyberbots and the like, competition in the form of SNK, Midway, Namco, ASW and Sega had already done enough to fill the market with some new flavors to consumers who wanted more beyond "Moar SF". Some thing had to give, and that's perhaps why the likes of Capcom's own Darkstalkers and the first-run of SFIII:3S did more to suffer in a market where Capcom wasn't the uncontested top dog any more.
So, that's why I'm thankful that, thus far, signs point that this upcoming game will NOT be SF5. SF4 was able to set Capcom up, once again, as a leader in the genre, if not "the". But from there, it's completely on them to showcase that they won't make the same mistake twice. If they can at least operate on the standpoint of having SF, MvC and this new franchise as the three "main" fighting franchises for the next few years, they'll stand to have 3 different flavors that cover as many different bases as possible, without over-extending themselves.
EDIT:
(http://p.twipple.jp/data/U/9/A/D/L.jpg)
Yet another picture teased from Ono's twitter. Judging by this, it seems safe to presume that the trailer Ono wants to present at his panel has to relate to the upcoming SSF4 arcade release. But what about that picture peek out from the bottom with the brown hair sticking up. That definitely ain't no Tekken character hair. In fact, it definitely looks more like the do of a certain, very familiar bloodsucker... *o*
Gyat dammit, Ono! He's gonna keep us guessing until next weekend! 8D
Of course, on the other hand, maybe that gives rise to the notion that the Namco v Capcom thing could be Namco's undertaking...
They already said they wouldn't do something like SF5 so soon, or even in this generation. But in my opinion, the fighting genre died simply because it was overmilked, and it didn't appeal to everyone anymore. Just to the usual fans. They started coming out with some crazy crap, but stopped evolving in general. Nowadays, I see few fighting games with actual tutorials and stuff to help newcomers get used to their systems. I don't see alot of stuff to get rid of the stupid elitism fighting games have. And that kind of bothers me. I know you think fighting games are better off restricted to a closed environment, so they won't be ruined with simplicity or just plain craziness. That's good, but they should really try to evolve the genre a bit, so they don't eventually go over their heads in this. Too much fighting and not enough audience are enough to kill a genre all over again.
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But in my opinion, the fighting genre died simply because it was overmilked, and it didn't appeal to everyone anymore. Just to the usual fans. They started coming out with some crazy crap, but stopped evolving in general. Nowadays, I see few fighting games with actual tutorials and stuff to help newcomers get used to their systems. I don't see alot of stuff to get rid of the stupid elitism fighting games have. And that kind of bothers me. I know you think fighting games are better off restricted to a closed environment, so they won't be ruined with simplicity or just plain craziness. That's good, but they should really try to evolve the genre a bit, so they don't eventually go over their heads in this. Too much fighting and not enough audience are enough to kill a genre all over again.
But again, how does one go about "evolving"? And perhaps for an even more thought-provoking question: why should it be forced to "evolve"? Especially in light of how the likes of some genres and its subscribers (re: Dragon Quest and Pokemon) haven't done that much in the way of evolution in the decades since they've been introduced? I mean, from my standpoint, I wouldn't mind games like Pokemon making a bit in the way of dynamic progression. But seeing how I feel about the Fighting Game genre as a whole, I can certainly respect and understand the opinions of those who would rather not see the basic game change that much. Same can be said for fans for a number of other genres, like those who profess to love Koei's Musou games and Zelda.
Again, to me, the only "issue" is that the game's meta-game is not laid out in-game for prospective newbies to learn almost immediately, in the "Trophy/Achievement" parlance that today's generation likely relates to the most. The best, if not arguably only way to do that is to actually seek out places like SRK, Dust Loop and etc., where the actual information (in the form of in-depth write-ups and etc.) lies. Sure, it may not be the most "immediate" way, but the information is there, and readily available in just a manner of a few clicks. It's only a thing that you, the prospective player, actually has to have the initiative to seek it out. Compared to when guys like me were growing up, where insider tips and tricks had to be gleaned from strategy guides, word of mouth and actually heading down to arcades in order to learn something from other players, the current generation has it made. All that you need to stay in (and keep up with) the game is laid out on a silver platter, waiting to be consumed.
At its core, fighting games still live and die by the virtue of what it is supposed to foster: a "community", where you get better through the effective 2-n-1 combo of learning the game on your own, developing your overall "playstyle", as well as through the community itself, which helps you to refine skills. No "in-game tutorial" nor objective based game play model is ever going to be able to match up with the kind of never-ending "teaching ability" that a community offers. Even a decidedly more "casual game" like Smash emphasizes that much; after all, it's not Nintendo's "job" to teach you advanced techniques that go beyond their scope.
And on that note, I pose this: if anything, I think it's just a thing that the PEOPLE need to evolve, not the games. Newbies need to realize that the tools are all there, and just need to get off their lazy duffs and be willing to accept the idea of that they need put in some work in-game and out to get good. Meanwhile, more of us among the "Old Guard" need to do more to drop the Pharisee-like attitude and be willing to teach those who are willing to learn, instead of shunning them. These kinds of things would be that which would keep a scene healthy. And after SF4 gave quite the injection of "new blood", it's my hope that a new generation of hopefuls will only serve to make things better. But it will only work out if the community itself is willing to make it such.
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...So how about that announcement?
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When is/was it?
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Comic Con didn't start yet, did it?
http://www.comic-con.org/
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But again, how does one go about "evolving"? And perhaps for an even more thought-provoking question: why should it be forced to "evolve"? Especially in light of how the likes of some genres and its subscribers (re: Dragon Quest and Pokemon) haven't done that much in the way of evolution in the decades since they've been introduced? I mean, from my standpoint, I wouldn't mind games like Pokemon making a bit in the way of dynamic progression. But seeing how I feel about the Fighting Game genre as a whole, I can certainly respect and understand the opinions of those who would rather not see the basic game change that much. Same can be said for fans for a number of other genres, like those who profess to love Koei's Musou games and Zelda.
Again, to me, the only "issue" is that the game's meta-game is not laid out in-game for prospective newbies to learn almost immediately, in the "Trophy/Achievement" parlance that today's generation likely relates to the most. The best, if not arguably only way to do that is to actually seek out places like SRK, Dust Loop and etc., where the actual information (in the form of in-depth write-ups and etc.) lies. Sure, it may not be the most "immediate" way, but the information is there, and readily available in just a manner of a few clicks. It's only a thing that you, the prospective player, actually has to have the initiative to seek it out. Compared to when guys like me were growing up, where insider tips and tricks had to be gleaned from strategy guides, word of mouth and actually heading down to arcades in order to learn something from other players, the current generation has it made. All that you need to stay in (and keep up with) the game is laid out on a silver platter, waiting to be consumed.
At its core, fighting games still live and die by the virtue of what it is supposed to foster: a "community", where you get better through the effective 2-n-1 combo of learning the game on your own, developing your overall "playstyle", as well as through the community itself, which helps you to refine skills. No "in-game tutorial" nor objective based game play model is ever going to be able to match up with the kind of never-ending "teaching ability" that a community offers. Even a decidedly more "casual game" like Smash emphasizes that much; after all, it's not Nintendo's "job" to teach you advanced techniques that go beyond their scope.
And on that note, I pose this: if anything, I think it's just a thing that the PEOPLE need to evolve, not the games. Newbies need to realize that the tools are all there, and just need to get off their lazy duffs and be willing to accept the idea of that they need put in some work in-game and out to get good. Meanwhile, more of us among the "Old Guard" need to do more to drop the Pharisee-like attitude and be willing to teach those who are willing to learn, instead of shunning them. These kinds of things would be that which would keep a scene healthy. And after SF4 gave quite the injection of "new blood", it's my hope that a new generation of hopefuls will only serve to make things better. But it will only work out if the community itself is willing to make it such.
Number one, people are lazy, and always will be.
Number two, for someone to actually have enough interest to go into the net and actively search strategies and train them out, they need some serious motivation and interest. At the moment, they have NONE.
And three, and most important, you say that people actively have to play and check out their own playstyle, because no tutorial will ever be good enough for anyone to learn how to play. I say no tutorial will ever teach anyone to be professional, but it doesn't help that most fighting games have NO tutorial at all. Motivation and evolution are necessary. And both franchises you mentioned are in need of evolution themselves, because they still appeal to the same old crowd instead of branching out. Everything needs to evolve sooner or later. The question is: Will fans help the evolution, or will they be stubborn enough to make sure the evolution makes fighting games STOP being fighting games at all?
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Comic Con didn't start yet, did it?
http://www.comic-con.org/
Next week, people. 8D
Number one, people are lazy, and always will be.
Number two, for someone to actually have enough interest to go into the net and actively search strategies and train them out, they need some serious motivation and interest. At the moment, they have NONE.
And three, and most important, you say that people actively have to play and check out their own playstyle, because no tutorial will ever be good enough for anyone to learn how to play. I say no tutorial will ever teach anyone to be professional, but it doesn't help that most fighting games have NO tutorial at all. Motivation and evolution are necessary. And both franchises you mentioned are in need of evolution themselves, because they still appeal to the same old crowd instead of branching out. Everything needs to evolve sooner or later. The question is: Will fans help the evolution, or will they be stubborn enough to make sure the evolution makes fighting games STOP being fighting games at all?
1) Can't do anything about that, now can we? 8D
2) Again, how much more in the way of "motivation" do people need? If you're (not specifically you, just for the sake of example) a part of the same generation that will freely go to GameFAQs and either read up/go to the message board in order to get the help you need to get past a certain part of an objective-based game, you can certainly do likewise for any number of Fighting Games, where the "objective" (getting better) is wholly dependent on you. But if they can't or won't be bothered to do this, then well, this ties directly into what you pose in postulate #1. And by that point, no amount of "motivation" (re: more like pandering) is going to make a difference. Stick to "Easy Auto-Mode", if you really have no interest in getting better.
3) The basic thing is, it's really only a "problem" if a) the community and/or b) the developers see it as such. Notice that the likes of Nintendo and Squenix have no real interest in rocking the boat, because, for all that the games in those respective franchises do to "cater to the same crowd", that same, happy crowd guarantees millions of units sold. And the main ones who are crying out for "significant evolution" are, admittedly, in the minority. And that's the way it works out in situations like this. No concessions should be made if the majority is happy.
So, as a Fighting Game fan, I'm sorry, I gotta invoke Picard, if for nothing else, comedic value.
(http://i26.tinypic.com/nnl6ap.gif)
8D
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Bravo for the image, Ben. 8)
I will make them play in High Definition!
Bottom line is, in ANY "player versus player" game of reasonable complexity (it's not even just fighting games; Pokemon gets this too), the meta-game will always be community-driven. It's a matter of tactics; what works, what doesn't, how it depends on what type of opponent you're facing. And a lot of it is what rule-book the community is abiding by.
I mean, seriously, you want to talk evolving the fighting genre to make it more accessible? That's pretty much what Smash Bros. is. And you STILL get the elitist schmucks who insist that the same character in the same stage while disabling half of the game's mechanics is the only way to play. The elitist attitude will always be there.
Fighting games can, and should I believe, carry tutorials for how to perform your various programmed maneuvers. But strategy isn't programmed, it evolves over time. Furthermore, there is such a thing as overdoing it in the approachability department. I royally BLOW at traditional fighting games and even I despise Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom's "simple" Wii Remote controls. It's a crutch that encourages shallow play, and when you hear that coming from someone who can barely enter a Shoryuken-style command, you know it's bad.
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No prob! 8D
I mean, seriously, you want to talk evolving the fighting genre to make it more accessible? That's pretty much what Smash Bros. is.
I dunno. To me, Smash is just a "different means to another end". It's another way of doing a fighting game, much like how Bushido Blade, Gundam Vs., Virtual ON, Power Stone and Psychic Force have all been unique twists on a "fighting game". All are valid approaches, because they all seek to do different things. Variety is the spice of life! 8D
Fighting games can, and should I believe, carry tutorials for how to perform your various programmed maneuvers.
Perhaps so. One of the things some games like Soul Calibur and Tekken have done well, is that they teach how to do basic things, and a few of the more complex things, such as Ivy's Summon Suffering. But this still goes back to what I was talking about, and what you go on to support: a tutorial will still only get you so far. It's not Nintendo/SNK/Capcom/Namco's responsibility to teach you the in and outs of what the community itself will discover as time passes, and "changes the name of the game" on its own. That's still up to the end user.
For example! Back in 1996, when Street Fighter Alpha 2 was king, the "Valle Low Roundhouse Custom Combo" trick changed the very nature of SFA2 itself. It had to be integrated into the mindset of the prospective player, if they hoped to keep up with the Joneses. Of course, for those of us who didn't have the pleasure of living on the West Coast, the information had to be gleaned from other sources, such as strategy guides, word-of-mouth and the like. It was a "tough job" but it was the only way at the time. Now, we live in an era where a new trick can be found and then shared by the community, either by just visiting some site's wikis or watching a few Youtube vids. Compared to a mere decade ago, again, things are much easier for the sake of sharing information, in a way that none of the developers could ever hope to do in their own games.
So that's why I say that so many concessions aren't necessary for the sake of progress. Again, the human mindset is the one that needs to "evolve", more than anything else.
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And here we go again! ANOTHER thing to add to the mystery!
LBD_youknowtherest 8D
(http://www.themmnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/9ac772847a8c0ac905325720c8bec592.jpg)
Found on Capcom Unity. Your guess is as good as ours.
(…or is it?)
Update: When asked to comment on what this image is about, Jgonzo at Capcom Unity had this to say as an official response: 8)
- http://www.themmnetwork.com/2010/07/15/capcom-is-charging-up/
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LEGEND OF MEGAMAN:
FOUR BUSTERS ADVENTURE!
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/70/omgfourbusters.jpg)
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I'd play it.
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I'd play that avatar, just saying. 8B
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(http://i26.tinypic.com/nnl6ap.gif)
8D
Actually, i'm quite curious of the history behind that gif, if ya have the time to explain that is.
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Actually, i'm quite curious of the history behind that gif, if ya have the time to explain that is.
A NeoGAF user by the name of "Mama Robotnik" was the main instigator of these awesome TNG-related gifs. I could post more as I find 'em/they become relevant to the topic at hand. 8D
The one specifically above was used in answer for many NPD Sales topics. In the "continuing journey" that represents the console wars, the lines are drawn as such:
Picard/Enterprise crew = GAF
Ferengi = Nintendo
Romulan = Sony
Klingons = Microsoft
Borg = 4chan
XD
Any way...back to the topic at hand!
Happy Friday people! Stay tuned to the Capcom Twitter/ websites/ facebook page over the next 10 days for a host of game announcments...
- http://twitter.com/CapcomEuro/status/18669399582
New game announcement at 5pm (BST)
- http://twitter.com/CapcomEuro/status/18678855842
Obviously, Capcom Europe's twitter likely has some relevance to what's going to happen next week. But maybe we might stand to get some more before even then? Stay tuned~ 8D
Posted on: July 16, 2010, 14:26:55
Mirror'd at the News Topic.
Today we can exclusively announce that Inafune-san is working on Mega Man Universe for the 360 & PS3. Please find the slightly dry blurb below :-)
Mega Man Universe, the latest entry in Capcom’s long-running Mega Man™ series, will be a revolutionary take on the seminal classic, setting course for a new chapter in classic gaming.
Mega Man games are beloved by fans all over the world. Since their debut in 1987, Mega Man has remained a videogame icon, having starred in more than 140 titles over the last 22 years. The connection he’s made with pop culture at large has extended beyond games and into cartoons, toys, clothing, comics, kid’s meals, and more. Part of that popularity is driven by the series’ ability to evolve over time yet consistently retain the addictive gameplay experience that sets Mega Man games apart.
For the next chapter in this legacy of excellence, Capcom aims to deliver the most creative Mega Man experience yet. In Mega Man Universe, imagination is the star of the game.
“We are thrilled to finally be able to announce Mega Man Universe,” said Kenji Inafune, Head of Research and Development Management for Capcom Entertainment. “This game will break the mold and challenge the conventional wisdom of what a Mega Man game can be. When fans finally get to see it, I believe they’ll envision their most far-out Mega Man dreams coming true.”
Inafune is committed to helping craft a Mega Manexperience that meets the highest expectations of Capcom fans. Most recently Mega Man™ 10echoed this fact when its classic design and compelling gameplay made it one of the most sought after digital downloads of the year. Gamers can expect Mega Man Universeto bring the core experience fans want while delivering on the promise of innovation that Capcom is known for. Its official: classic gaming will never be same again.
Find out more about MMU and lots of other new announcements @ the Capcom Europe Blog next week when we send Fonix out to Comicon in San Diego….
(http://www.capcom-europe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/MMU_LOGO_FIX0507-copy.jpg)
- http://www.capcom-europe.com/blog/2010/07/mega-man-universe/
YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
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Curb your enthusiasm. As far as being informative goes, on a scale of one to ten, this announcement scores a negative six. There is absolutely no information here that we didn't already know.
And that "trailer" has about as much to do with the game as Megaman 2's box art does its respective software. They are tangentially related at best.
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Curb your enthusiasm. As far as being informative goes, on a scale of one to ten, this announcement scores a negative six. There is absolutely no information here that we didn't already know.
And that "trailer" has about as much to do with the game as Megaman 2's box art does its respective software. They are tangentially related at best.
Really? Exactly how much did we know back in April when this copyright information was leaked in the first place, eh? 8D
Besides, this is just ONE announcement. It's not the only one. It's not even related to Ono's announcement (which will be next Saturday).
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Well, we knew that it's being made, and that it's a Megaman game.
Now, we know that it's being made, and it might be a Megaman game. Maybe. Megaman might just be in it.
Yes, we actually know less about it now than we did before this announcement.
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Curb your enthusiasm.
Nope. Not gonna happen. This will be awesome.
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So it's a MegaMan game with multiple Rocks, Ryu, and Arthur?
Yeah, need to know more. Not happy that this is Picard-with-a-vengeance-HD-only, either, but what're you gonna do? I foresee me deliberately visiting my brother when he's not home.
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You could just buy a PS3! 8D
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PB, not all people can get free consoles or have enough money to spend on it without compromising other stuff :P
...that said good thing I'll get a 360 soon.
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LoL, I was being silly!
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I'll counter that and Ben's Picard at the same time: What does a High Definition console have that is more important than Wii Bowling night?
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/lolz/wiibowling.jpg)
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Well, here we go~
Ever since two prominent Namco and Capcom producers appeared at Evo 2010 in Las Vegas just over a week ago, rumors have run wild about a Namco vs. Capcom game. Game Informer has done some digging and found intel that will please Street Fighter and Tekken fans alike.
To catch people up, Namco Bandai's Katsuhiro Harada and Capcom's Yoshinori Ono playfully teased the crowd at the Evo fighting game tournament with some onstage banter (see video below). The most important information concerned a fighting game debut trailer set to go live on Saturday, July 24th during Comic-Con.
According to our sources, Capcom will make a Capcom vs. Namco game using the Street Fighter IV engine and Namco Bandai will create Namco vs. Capcom with the Tekken 6 engine. This means that each game will play and look like whichever company is creating it. Think hadoukens, Ultra Combos, and 2.5D presentation on the Capcom side and three dimensional movement, in-depth move lists, and most likely, a playable panda on the Namco side. Ono is rumored to produce the Capcom game, and we're guessing that Harada will handle the Namco end of things.
- http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/07/19/rumor-namco-vs-capcom-not-one-but-two-games.aspx
Well, so it looks it won't be Darkstalkers this time. And for those who were so concerned about one side of the aisle or the other, it looks like you won't have to worry about it, because again, there will be two different games to look forward to.
More to come as it comes in...
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Well I'm happy! 8)
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That's... interesting. Two approaches to the same game, done simultaneously.
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It's a rumor so far, but it does sound good. One game for each kind of fighter crowd. Both can be satisfied.
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If only it worked like that. Have you seen all the hating going on on the EVO Twitter Tracker? Everyone shat on everything, but Tekken certainly got the most [parasitic bomb]. Millions of people are going to be upset that there's a game where Ken and Ryu have to juggle nonstop to win. Likewise, the Tekken fans are not going to be happy that there's a game where matches are going to boil down to trading fireballs.
Advocates of one side are going to [sonic slicer] and moan that the other side merely exists. Such is the internet.
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If only it worked like that. Have you seen all the hating going on on the EVO Twitter Tracker? Everyone shat on everything, but Tekken certainly got the most [parasitic bomb]. Millions of people are going to be upset that there's a game where Ken and Ryu have to juggle nonstop to win. Likewise, the Tekken fans are not going to be happy that there's a game where matches are going to boil down to trading fireballs.
Advocates of one side are going to [sonic slicer] and moan that the other side merely exists. Such is the internet.
Yes. YES! Don't you love it? All the pointless bitching, all the endless moaning, all due to two great companies working together in order to please everyone?
The irony, the pure ironic insaneness that the biggest bitching, moaning and senseless complaining from fans will be when companies actually join forced for the good of every single one of them.
The fanboy rage will reach epic heights. Exactly BECAUSE everyone will be satisfied. Barrels upon barrels upon barrels of fanboy tears...
It will be DELICIOUS. :V
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I find it disgusting, actually. Funny at first, perhaps, but soon it makes me facepalm that people are that stupid.
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Used to frustrate me when people were like that. Now, I just laugh at them, rile them up, and drink their tasty tears.
"As long as everyone is happy, somebody won't be."
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I only get frustrated by people's stupidity when they're driving, because that can cost lives.
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Seems to me that there'll be significantly less tears and rage since there are two distinct games. Most likely the fanbases will shun and ignore each other, confident in the knowledge that their version of the game is the best.
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The fanboy rage will reach epic heights. Exactly BECAUSE everyone will be satisfied. Barrels upon barrels upon barrels of fanboy tears...
Smash Bros. did it. Nice to see it come about in a new way, though.
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Smash Bros. did it. Nice to see it come about in a new way, though.
They did. I still love to mock tourneyfags about Brawl. 8D There aren't many people who'll go as far as to create game mods just to make the game more like they want it to be. I can't wait for the eventual "DARKNESS AND BLOOD RED MOD" avalanche that Diablo 3 will have.
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They did. I still love to mock tourneyfags about Brawl. 8D There aren't many people who'll go as far as to create game mods just to make the game more like they want it to be. I can't wait for the eventual "DARKNESS AND BLOOD RED MOD" avalanche that Diablo 3 will have.
NEEDS MORE RAINBOWS! DON'T FORGET THE UNICORNS!
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A couple announcements for you this afternoon...
- http://twitter.com/CapcomEuro/status/19068971430
Stay tuned 4PM BST for more.
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Yes. YES! Don't you love it? All the pointless bitching, all the endless moaning, all due to two great companies working together in order to please everyone?
The irony, the pure ironic insaneness that the biggest bitching, moaning and senseless complaining from fans will be when companies actually join forced for the good of every single one of them.
The fanboy rage will reach epic heights. Exactly BECAUSE everyone will be satisfied. Barrels upon barrels upon barrels of fanboy tears...
It will be DELICIOUS. :V
I went from hating you when I first met you, to liking you over time.
But after this....
YOU ARE MY GODDAMN HERO!
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They did. I still love to mock tourneyfags about Brawl. 8D There aren't many people who'll go as far as to create game mods just to make the game more like they want it to be.
To be fair I'm modding the hell out of the game's soundtrack, but even I have to laugh when game mods are created for the FULL AND SOLE PURPOSE of altering the physics engine.
There are only 400 billion different modes one can come up with in Smash and half the internet has to make it NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION. My favorite Brawl moment was taking an FD engine of destruction into Yoshi's Island Melee, where he found out that he doesn't know how to fight on a slope. A freaking SLOPE. That's one hell of an unbalanced stage hazard, right?
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I went from hating you when I first met you, to liking you over time.
But after this....
YOU ARE MY GODDAMN HERO!
Thank you. Look forward to me making you rage about a topic you're slightly passionate about.
To be fair I'm modding the hell out of the game's soundtrack, but even I have to laugh when game mods are created for the FULL AND SOLE PURPOSE of altering the physics engine.
There are only 400 billion different modes one can come up with in Smash and half the internet has to make it NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION. My favorite Brawl moment was taking an FD engine of destruction into Yoshi's Island Melee, where he found out that he doesn't know how to fight on a slope. A freaking SLOPE. That's one hell of an unbalanced stage hazard, right?
Modding game soundtracks is fair and square on any game that doesn't allow for custom soundtracks. I ALWAYS like to keep my own soundtracks to listen to when playing pretty much anything. No idea why only 360 games do that nowadays.
And Jesus. Honestly, why do people care about tourneying in Brawl? It's a friggin' party game! Wow, Melee had tournament potencial. Big friggin' deal, the game was awesome, but it's meant to be played for fun, not with tons of limits. The actual spirit of a Smash Bros game is the way anyone can pick it up, throw items, beat others up, and just have plenty of fun. When I see some dude complaining about wavedashing and crap like that, I feel like puking.
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And Jesus. Honestly, why do people care about tourneying in Brawl? It's a friggin' party game! Wow, Melee had tournament potencial. Big friggin' deal, the game was awesome, but it's meant to be played for fun, not with tons of limits. The actual spirit of a Smash Bros game is the way anyone can pick it up, throw items, beat others up, and just have plenty of fun. When I see some dude complaining about wavedashing and crap like that, I feel like puking.
You're missing the point, in my eyes. The basic thing that made Smash so good in the past was because it DID allow you to play in any style you wanted. Wanted to go for the ultimate in silliness? Go right ahead. Wanted to make it so that it actually became more about individual skill, and less on luck of the draw? Also great! It only really became a problem, in Brawl's case, because Sakurai pretty did everything to shut-out those who wanted to play in the style they wanted to play on the technical end. Removing the likes of WD-ing and etc. is fair, but then they added in completely random things like tripping and what-not. So, in that light, that's what caused people to actually actively seek out ways of making the game in the way they want to. Some of the results are truly a sight to behold. Now we've even got people making their own stages and character skins, among so many others. I've got my precious Roy back, among others! 8D
But in any case, what's it to you if people get enjoyment out of playing the game a certain way? There's no "wrong way" to play the game, and being so insistent on what you consider the "right way" makes you just as bad as the "snobs" on the other side. Just sayin'. 8D
ANY WAY. Back on topic. Tomorrow shall be the day of reckoning. Ono's twitter talks about "more than 2 announcements" to be made at the fighting game panel tomorrow. Could stand to be a very good time to be a fighting game fan...
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It's that Mega Man fighting game Horinouchi wanted to make. I know it.
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It's that Mega Man fighting game Horinouchi wanted to make. I know it.
Would be nice to see, but I don't foresee Horinouchi and Ono getting together for something like that any time soon. 8D
Come to think of it, where is ol boy Horinouchi in all this Rockman-related hoopla going on currently...?
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HE'S AT HOME, WAAAAAAAAAAASHING HIS TIGHTS!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!
8D
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You're missing the point, in my eyes. The basic thing that made Smash so good in the past was because it DID allow you to play in any style you wanted. Wanted to go for the ultimate in silliness? Go right ahead. Wanted to make it so that it actually became more about individual skill, and less on luck of the draw? Also great! It only really became a problem, in Brawl's case, because Sakurai pretty did everything to shut-out those who wanted to play in the style they wanted to play on the technical end. Removing the likes of WD-ing and etc. is fair, but then they added in completely random things like tripping and what-not. So, in that light, that's what caused people to actually actively seek out ways of making the game in the way they want to. Some of the results are truly a sight to behold. Now we've even got people making their own stages and character skins, among so many others. I've got my precious Roy back, among others! 8D
But in any case, what's it to you if people get enjoyment out of playing the game a certain way? There's no "wrong way" to play the game, and being so insistent on what you consider the "right way" makes you just as bad as the "snobs" on the other side. Just sayin'. 8D
ANY WAY. Back on topic. Tomorrow shall be the day of reckoning. Ono's twitter talks about "more than 2 announcements" to be made at the fighting game panel tomorrow. Could stand to be a very good time to be a fighting game fan...
Allowed you to play in any style you wanted, of course. One style was using the whole game, and the other style was being limited to three to four characters, turning off items, just using Final Destination and stock lives. That's as if people found some kinda really cool level in a game to constantly speedrun in, and in the game's sequel, that level, or the abilities they used in certain characters within the level, were gone. It pissed me off when people hogged the console at the game store simply playing the same level, with the same characters, over and over and over again. I say screw those dudes. Sakurai made the game, he's got the right to turn it into anything he wants to it.
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HE'S AT HOME, WAAAAAAAAAAASHING HIS TIGHTS!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!
8D
<3
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It pissed me off when people hogged the console at the game store simply playing the same level, with the same characters, over and over and over again. I say screw those dudes.
They played it the way they wanted to, what's the problem? Unless it's that you couldn't stand playing with them so you never got a turn, I guess that would be pretty annoying.
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Besides, people turning off items in Brawl is justified, since a good portion of the items are actually broken. =/
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They played it the way they wanted to, what's the problem? Unless it's that you couldn't stand playing with them so you never got a turn, I guess that would be pretty annoying.
It was a store that closed off a few years back, which was pretty much the perfect standard of a game store. A nice, comfy store with a big TV and all the available consoles from all generations for everyone to request and play. It survived on few customers, and it had regulars basically sitting around the lounge couch and playing a few games all day. Except there were about 6 people who pretty much JUST played the same game, same characters, same level, same stuff EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. At a certain point, people who came in were forced to set by their standards of play, since more than two of them were always at the console, and majority always won. The way Melee/Brawl tourneyfags behave around others is just stupid. It isn't just by this one example, I'm not stupid enough to believe a few people set a standard. I've seen this in so many places around the net, it drives me insane. So what if the items break the whole game? So what if it's so chaotic, that it's not 100% FAIR TO EVERYONE? It was never supposed to be. Wavedashing, tournament rules, that set of characters which turns it into a potential professional tournament game... it was never intended to be so, it was all an accident, which people simply got advantage of. Due to that fact, people got no place complaining about it being taken out. It's like complaining about a certain ingredient being taken out of some product because that one ingredient could be made to manufacture a drug. Just because people no longer get high over it, it's no reason to go crazy over it.
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*shrug* I'm not defending tourneyfaggotry or anything, but some people don't like having to deal with gamebreaking items or, rather, the effects that said gamebreaking items have on the flow of a match. Take Landmasters, for example. More often than not, that's 2 lives gone right there, at least. Similarly, some people enjoy balance in their fighting games (Not tier-wise, at least not for Smash), but with the other factors of the game, like accessibility and location. The reason people play on Final Destination with no items is because they want everybody playing the game to have an equal and fair chance. I can't argue with the intention, but the execution seems waaaaaay too rigid and strict. There are other ways to balance Smash than "NO ITEMS, FOX ONLY, 3 LIVES, FINAL DESTINATION", but it seems that people don't realize that, and Smash (mainly Melee/Brawl) is unfortunately divided among the hardcore gamers, known by the casuals as tourneyfags, and the casuals, known by the tourneyfags as scrubs. Middlegrounds are very few and far between, as both sides have (intentionally or accidentally) drawn the line and most of them play by their respective extremes.
On the subject of Capcom vs Namco, if it ever gets made, Yoshimitsu for top-tier.
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Street Fighter Versus Takken
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Street Fighter X (Cross) Tekken by Capcom
(http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2010/07/24_sfvstekken02.jpg)
(http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2010/07/24_sfvstekken03.jpg)
This game will play like a SF game.
Also, there will be a Namco made Tekken x SF, as well as an online version of SF3:3S on the way.
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Since it's SF X Tekken and not Capcom X Namco I'm kinda disappointed. Looking forward to 3S online.
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Hooooly shiiiiiit, so it was true after all. AWESOME.
...commence immense bitching from fans who don't like one or the other. 8D
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Is it me, or are they using the same Ryu model from SSFIV?
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First footage (VERY off screen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5-EBx-MFNw
Ryu and Kazuya throw down. Ryu has the Mule Kick, Kaz has Raijinken. Ultras seem to call in Assists this time, as Chunli was called in by Ryu, while Kaz called in Nina.
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I think it looks pretty cool. I hope the roster is big so we get to play many SF and TK characters.
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So this is the new game?
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This and Tekken Vs Street Fighter
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Wait, theres a Tekken vs Street Fighter AND a Street Fighter x Tekken?
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Yep.
One probably uses the SF engine and one uses the Tekken engine.
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Ah yeah that makes sense o.o
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Has the trailer been posted yet?
http://www.capcom-unity.com/go/network/blog
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Are those Alpha-esque counter hits? Ryu just popped Kazuya with that ground uppercut and followed up with a Shoryuken. o.o
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Still off-screen, but MUCH closer this time. 8D
http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/30596/bigger
And yeah, trailer was pretty nice. Strangely enough, I could imagine Namco putting in Rockman and Pac-man some how, over Capcom themselves. 8D
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Looks pretty sweet. Not a fan of Tekken at all, but it should be interesting to see how it all translates into Street Fighter style.
At the very least it'll be a cool Street Fighter with a little more over the top moves and system it looks like.
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That's the chain combo from SFIII, except it actually works this time. I'm liking the fact that they're throwing in chains, and from the looks of it Ryu and Kaz have a special intro. 8)
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[tornado fang] yeah online 3rd Strike.
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[tornado fang] yeah online 3rd Strike.
That too. I think I will get this and play with some RPM people.
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What, no GGPO?
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Wow... just wow.
But honestly, I can't imagine Tekken using SF engine. I've played both 2D and 3D fighting games, but how would Tekken characters' special moves look like since they focus on spamming comboes and juggles.
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But honestly, I can't imagine Tekken using SF engine. I've played both 2D and 3D fighting games, but how would Tekken characters' special moves look like since they focus on spamming combos and juggles.
The simple answer is this:
Each respective development team gets to take the other side's characters, and "tweak" them for the sake of their side of the playing field. As you saw with Ono's version of the game, the result is that you take the "flashiest" aspects of the Tekken characters (like Kazuya's EWGF), and convert them into the "QCF/DP/360/etc." notation and move propety that Capcom fans will recognize. From what we saw, it looks like Kazuya converted well enough to the rulings of the other side, and I expect the rest of his pals to follow suit.
Frankly, I'm much more interested in seeing what Harada and the Tekken team will do with Ryu's gang. For the first time in years, Ryu may actually stand to have more NEW MOVES, since the typical Tekken character averages about 100 moves a piece. 8D
Harada and his group definitely have the bigger "design challenge" on their hands, and that's probably why I'm tentatively more interested in what their game will look like. Akuma/Gouki's SGS could be made into a complex series of chain grabs that could make even regular players of King blush. 8D
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That'd be a little odd, since the SGS is more or less a dash-then-grab type thing with a massive beatdown involved. If anything it'd be kinda like a Deadly Rave.
What I wanna see is how the Tekken team shows off his Hyakki flips...And pretty much all the aerial Tatsumakis, since Tekken's jumps aren't anywhere near as high as most Capcom fighters...
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Shouldn't the topic title be changed to just "yaaaaay Street Fighter vs Tekken"?
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Or Street Fighter x (Tekken) x Street Fighter since they're making two games out of one.
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So uh, have they announced any games that don't involve Street Fighter yet?
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Capcom's Facebook page said "That's it for game announcements... at least until TGS"
So I'm guessing so. :'(
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...well, Mega Man Universe and Street Fighter x Tekken/Tekken x Street Fighter have been pretty good game announcements so far, wouldn't you say?
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Yeah.
Guess we'll have to wait until October for more though.
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Which really isn't that far, to be honest. We'll be entertained until then.
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I guess if I actually cared about fighting games I'd be pretty stoked. Maybe.
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Funnily enough, I scarcely see fighting games with demos out nowadays. The last ones I can remember, were the demos for Virtua Fighter 5 and the beta for Street Fighter 2 HD. They should really put more demos out. Stuff like two available characters and one level for people to play in. It'd give us a chance to try out the feel of it.
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Funnily enough, I scarcely see fighting games with demos out nowadays. The last ones I can remember, were the demos for Virtua Fighter 5 and the beta for Street Fighter 2 HD. They should really put more demos out. Stuff like two available characters and one level for people to play in. It'd give us a chance to try out the feel of it.
It's basically because, unless it's a game like Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm or DBZ: Raging Blast, there's no real need for it. Making a demo for the sake of an impressionable demographic that largely consists of kids is fine in that case, because you want those kids to play the game. Such a thing can't be said for the likes of more "hardcore" fighting games, where the majority of the fan base expresses neither the need or desire for a demo. Just tell them when they can buy the full release. So, with that much in mind, the companies don't see the need spend the money and time to craft such a demo.
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Well, the SNK fighters have demos, did that help them? (Honest question, any idea what NGBC sold?)
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It's basically because, unless it's a game like Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm or DBZ: Raging Blast, there's no real need for it. Making a demo for the sake of an impressionable demographic that largely consists of kids is fine in that case, because you want those kids to play the game. Such a thing can't be said for the likes of more "hardcore" fighting games, where the majority of the fan base expresses neither the need or desire for a demo. Just tell them when they can buy the full release. So, with that much in mind, the companies don't see the need spend the money and time to craft such a demo.
Why would the demo-playing demographic largely consist of kids? What's stopping most adults with a console to download a demo to a good fighter, so they can see it's decent?
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Why would the demo-playing demographic largely consist of kids? What's stopping most adults with a console to download a demo to a good fighter, so they can see it's decent?
Because that's what the numbers have shown. The more "Shounen"/kid-friendly a property is, the more likely the company will actually invest in putting out a demo. Otherwise, the likes of Capcom and Namco stand to save money by just relying on "in store kiosks" in Gamestops and their Japanese-equivalents to be optimal way to showcase a game.
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Because that's what the numbers have shown. The more "Shounen"/kid-friendly a property is, the more likely the company will actually invest in putting out a demo. Otherwise, the likes of Capcom and Namco stand to save money by just relying on "in store kiosks" in Gamestops and their Japanese-equivalents to be optimal way to showcase a game.
Is this Japan-centered? Because most PC games have demos nowadays. If not demos, betas, to showcase the engine before people play it on the actual game. Console games have quite alot of demos out too. I count alot of racing games, sports games, RTS... even a few simulators. What's wrong with putting out a fighting game demo? For example, all XBLA games are obligated to have a trial game available for download, with just a tiny bit of the game to show off before buying. It's a way to show people how the game is. It's not just for kids, most adults would like to try out a game before buying.
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Is this Japan-centered? Because most PC games have demos nowadays. If not demos, betas, to showcase the engine before people play it on the actual game. Console games have quite alot of demos out too. I count alot of racing games, sports games, RTS... even a few simulators. What's wrong with putting out a fighting game demo? For example, all XBLA games are obligated to have a trial game available for download, with just a tiny bit of the game to show off before buying. It's a way to show people how the game is. It's not just for kids, most adults would like to try out a game before buying.
It's not really a Japan-centered thing at all. It's more of a thing that the Fighting Game market is, again, quite a ways different from everything else. Capcom and Namco, the two "leaders" in the genre, know this much to be true. Furthermore, I believe the individual fall-outs that resulted from both HDR and MvC2's demos have only done more to showcase why there is such a reluctance to do such a thing.
I mean, Capcom just put out a demo for Sengoku BASARA 3 on PSN a day or so ago. And that applies only in Japan, where it stands to benefit those fangirls and kids who want to try out the game before they buy the full game tomorrow/today. But unless I stand to be surprised, MvC3, for example, won't get such a demo. Thus far, they've been doing the exact same thing with the game as they did with SF4 years prior, where the game's progressive builds were passed along at live demonstrations/loke tests instead of thrown up on PSN/Live.
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It's not really a Japan-centered thing at all. It's more of a thing that the Fighting Game market is, again, quite a ways different from everything else. Capcom and Namco, the two "leaders" in the genre, know this much to be true. Furthermore, I believe the individual fall-outs that resulted from both HDR and MvC2's demos have only done more to showcase why there is such a reluctance to do such a thing.
I mean, Capcom just put out a demo for Sengoku BASARA 3 on PSN a day or so ago. And that applies only in Japan, where it stands to benefit those fangirls and kids who want to try out the game before they buy the full game tomorrow/today. But unless I stand to be surprised, MvC3, for example, won't get such a demo. Thus far, they've been doing the exact same thing with the game as they did with SF4 years prior, where the game's progressive builds were passed along at live demonstrations/loke tests instead of thrown up on PSN/Live.
It's the exact same kind of closed group crowd when talking about simulators and certain games, and they still have demos. Pretty much any game can have a demo, or simply a gameplay demonstration for the player to know if he or she feels comfortable in it.
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It's the exact same kind of closed group crowd when talking about simulators and certain games, and they still have demos. Pretty much any game can have a demo, or simply a gameplay demonstration for the player to know if he or she feels comfortable in it.
Again, fighting games have done this sort of thing differently. Always have and likely always will.
Even Mortal Kombat, the most "American" of the fighting game lot, has not had a demo of this sort.
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Again, fighting games have done this sort of thing differently. Always have and likely always will.
Even Mortal Kombat, the most "American" of the fighting game lot, has not had a demo of this sort.
Never say never. =P Seriously, we don't even know if fighting games will last a whole lot longer if they keep thriving in a closed-off environment.
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Never say never. =P Seriously, we don't even know if fighting games will last a whole lot longer if they keep thriving in a closed-off environment.
If fighting games didn't die off through its supposed "decline" (which in itself is a half-truth, because fighting games still thrived in Asia even when most in the West thought the scene was "dead"), then I don't believe the genre is any real danger. Not when the likes of Tekken and Gundam Vs. still make Namco and Capcom millions in arcade sales in Asia alone.
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If fighting games didn't die off through its supposed "decline" (which in itself is a half-truth, because fighting games still thrived in Asia even when most in the West thought the scene was "dead"), then I don't believe the genre is any real danger. Not when the likes of Tekken and Gundam Vs. still make Namco and Capcom millions in arcade sales in Asia alone.
I'm not saying it's in any current danger, but you never know what the future will bring, and unevolving entertainment can only sustain itself for so long.
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I'm not saying it's in any current danger, but you never know what the future will bring, and unevolving entertainment can only sustain itself for so long.
That much remains to be seen. Logical progression is one thing, and I believe the genre is doing well enough in that respect. Really, the main issue that fighting game developers could stand to really work on, is decent (possibly universal) netcode standard for the sake of console users, especially in the West. That single aspect is the most pressing issue that fans cry about, more than anything else.
Otherwise, again, there's no real need or want for significant, "game-changing" evolution, when the main base that the likes of Namco and Capcom butter their bread is more or less happy with things.
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That much remains to be seen. Logical progression is one thing, and I believe the genre is doing well enough in that respect. Really, the main issue that fighting game developers could stand to really work on, is decent (possibly universal) netcode standard for the sake of console users, especially in the West. That single aspect is the most pressing issue that fans cry about, more than anything else.
Otherwise, again, there's no real need or want for significant, "game-changing" evolution, when the main base that the likes of Namco and Capcom butter their bread is more or less happy with things.
All it takes is a tiny executive decision in one of the companies, to set the big structure going. The game industry is volatile with new ideas right now. Any tiny bit of crazy will set fire to any volatile conservative standard. This one's in danger of getting burnt up anytime. And considering the potencial for evolution, I can see this idea pass by anyone.