RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: Thanatos-Zero on January 10, 2009, 06:22:49 PM
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Greetings members of Rockman PM.
Today I want you to teach you about things which are constantly and frequently asked in the world of Zelda, since many of play it too. This time we will talk about Ocarina of Time until Twilight Princess ( including Majora´s Mask).
If you don´t believe me, just play the games again, so you will get and understand what I´m saying.
So let´s start:
1st Question: Why has Link in the Child Ending of Ocarina of Time the Triforce of Courage on his left hand? Does it mean that he has take it from the Adult Timeline?
Answer: No, the Triforce of Courage is not from the Adult Timeline, it is from the Child Timeline. As we know in The Wind Waker, that the Triforce of Courage has been splitt as Link (metioned as the Hero of Time) left Hyrule. The splitt was caused by Zelda´s timemagic, by sending Link back in time.
How Link get hold of the ToC in the Child Timeline, you could call it a divine prank by the Goddesses like it was suggested by the TP Sages.
Maybe it is a reward of the Goddesses for Link, or his body has still been hold some energy of ToC from the AT, which caused a disbalance by the True Force in the CT, which lead to the splitt in the three fragments.
However, the existence of the ToC outside of the Sacred Realm cannot be denied.
2nd Question: I´m confused about the Child Timeline Ending. When Zelda has send Link back in time to a point, before their first meeting, why was the Door of Time open and the Sacred Stones still on the altar? It makes no sense for me, since you couldn´t enter the Castle after the Bridge Szene with Ganondorf
Answer: The answer lies in Twilight Princess. In the Sacret Grove there is a door, which can travel you through the time. If you enter it, you find yourself again in the Temple of Time with the identical Sound of OoT.
If you compare now both Temple of Times, you see not just some different designs in it, but the enterances from both Temple of Times are almost identical, if you include the different design.
The Temple of Time has itself time manipulating powers, so the conclusion is, that the Temple of Time in OoT has it as well.
With this we can see now, that we have two different Door´s of Time in OoT and in TP. The first one is the massive door of stone, which protects the way to the Master Sword and most important the Sacred realm.
The other one is a door, which brings you literall through time.
Let`s make it short:
Link got back in time by Zelda, however this was only a stopover in his timetravel, because his and Zelda´s actions where still in effect, as we can see that the DoT is open alongside with the Sacret Stones on the altar.
Zelda from the AT has activated the other Door of Time which is the entrance from the outside. When Link goes through it, he was no longer bond with the AT and this starts the Child Timeline. This has closed the roads between the times.
Link lacks now the Sacret Stone of the Kokiri and the Ocarina of Time, which he gave Zelda in the AT, also he will meet for the first time Talon and Malon.
Since Link has no longer the Ocarina of Time, it confirms timetravel to the point before the first meeting has occured, that he got it from the Zelda of the CT, as we can see it in the Majora´s Mask Fashback Szene. (http://"http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mYgZzXVkpXw")
Edit: Some informations were false. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uxElxRHyZYI
3rd Question: How did Ganondorf get the Triforce of Power, since he can not enter the Sacred Realm because of the Master Sword?
Answer: That is right, Ganondorf although a chosen one, cannot pull the Master Sword out of the Pedestral of Time, because he has a evil, unpure Hearth. The holy sword it the final key, which prevent dark forces to enter the Sacret Realm.
Ganondorf gained his ToP, as Link get his in the CT, as seen in the ending of Ocarina of Time. (For more just read Answer 2)
That is all for the moment, so please read everything carefully what I have said.
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So much fanon I don't know where to even begin unravelling it...
Let's start with #1. What says that the ToC was split by Zelda sending Link back in time? Yes, it's possible because we don't have any proof otherwise, but it's just as possible (though not quite as plausible) that the moon landed on it, smashing it in a dozen pieces.
And why is there no comment on the fact that the ToW was similarly split up in NES Zelda?
Also isn't it pretty clear by now that the Triforces are handed out to the most worthy regardless of everything else? TP Link was even born with it in him.
EDIT: probably shouldn't have cut out the part where I agreed this was because of the goddesses
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It seems you haven´t played the from games which I have called and even so, you do not clearly watched the cutscenes.
TP Link was chosen from the Goddesses to hold the Triforce of Courage. The same goes for Zelda and Ganondorf. If you do not believe me, than ask marshmallow man about the japanese versions.
It makes me sick that people like you, do not want to understand.
I have played constantly OoT, MM and TP, so don´t tell me that the information which I have collected are void and nothing. PLay the games again, with the information, which I have written here.
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Or you could just answer my questions, which would take rather less than the 20+ hours of playing through the Zelda games.
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Alright.
What says that the ToC was split by Zelda sending Link back in time?
The King of the Red Lions says to WW Link, that the Triforce of Courage got split as the Hero of Time left Hyrule. This was the moment were OoT Link, the Hero of Time got send back in time to a point, before he meet Zelda as child.
why is there no comment on the fact that the ToW was similarly split up in NES Zelda
OoT Zelda remained in the Adult Timeline along with the Triforce of Wisdom and the Ocarina of Time. The Triforce of Wisdom was passed down than in the royal family. The reason why it got split in two pieces, was to prevent Ganondorf from gaining the ToW as a whole. Also when it is split it is not recogniseable as the Triforce.
Also isn't it pretty clear by now that the Triforces are handed out to the most worthy regardless of everything else?
The wielder are chosen by the goddesses, this is why they gain the Triforce pieces. They are called chosen ones for a reason.
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Alright.
Are we talking about the same game, with 8 dungeons, each with one piece of the triforce?
Chosen according to worthiness, not chance...
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Alright.
Are we talking about the same game, with 8 dungeons, each with one piece of the triforce?
It is similiar to the first Zeldagame , but I´m talking about Ocarina of Time, The Windwaker (sequel to the Adult Timeline ending), Majora´s Mask and Twilight Princess.
What mostly aplies to your question is The Windwaker. Tetra holds one piece and King Daphnes aka King of the red Lions the other piece of the Triforce of Wisdom. Combined they are a whole as the ToW.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uxElxRHyZYI
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Uh. But I meant the original NES game. Wait, maybe I [tornado fang]'d up, I thought Ganon had the Triforce of Power then and Link had to collect the pieces of the Triforce of Wisdom...
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And why is there no comment on the fact that the ToW was similarly split up in NES Zelda?
Thanatos-Zero outright ignored this question when you first posted it, then responded in the context of Wind Waker and not NES, and that's what's causing the confusion. Your take on the NES Zelda is correct, but I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.
IMHO there is no greater exercise in futility than trying to make sense of the Zelda timeline. Zelda games are generally built as adventures in themselves with their continuity addressed as an afterthought (case in point: Twilight Princess was originally supposed to be a Wind Waker sequel, then they decided Phantom Hourglass worked better). Even when they do make an effort to establish some connection, they don't hesitate to brush over minor details (characteristics of the Sages).
There is little doubt in my mind that the split-continuity stemming from OoT was not established officially until they wrote TP out of the Wind Waker timeline during development. Before that, there was no definite statement that the adult Link timeline from a game released eight years ago had been preserved. And given the fact that the two periods remained linked, as presented in the Kakariko windmill scenario, arguing that they fork away from each other wouldn't have been easy.
The answers given in this thread are merely what is derived after the point. Before the release of TP, it would have been an entirely different matter, especially when it comes to the status of the Triforce of Courage. All that's out the window now, but I still have one problem with this timeline fork:
Why is it that Link, the Hero of Time, is the *ONLY* thing to not coexist in both time forks? Zelda does, Ganon does, all Triforce parts do, and the Master Sword does.
I don't expect Nintendo to ever answer that one. They might, but they probably won't.
Let`s make it short:
Link got back in time by Zelda, however this was only a stopover in his timetravel, because his and Zelda´s actions where still in effect, as we can see that the DoT is open alongside with the Sacret Stones on the altar.
Zelda from the AT has activated the other Door of Time which is the entrance from the outside. When Link goes through it, he was no longer bond with the AT and this starts the Child Timeline. This has closed the roads between the times.
Link lacks now the Sacret Stone of the Kokiri and the Ocarina of Time, which he gave Zelda in the AT, also he will meet for the first time Talon and Malon.
Since Link has no longer the Ocarina of Time, it confirms timetravel to the point before the first meeting has occured, that he got it from the Zelda of the CT, as we can see it in the Majora´s Mask Fashback Szene. (http://"http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mYgZzXVkpXw") [/I]
First of all your URL is broken.
Zelda having the Ocarina of Time during the Majora's Mask flashback is no greater evidence of Link traveling to before their first meeting than Link having the Hylian Shield and Epona are of him going back to after said meeting. What happened between Link meeting Zelda in OoT's ending and his departure in the Majora's Mask flashback is a complete mystery, besides that it spans multiple days.
How/where the Ocarina reappeared in child Link's time and when the OoT ending meetup with Zelda occurs isn't made clear. You'd have better luck arguing on the grounds that it must be, at least, before Ganondorf makes his move on the Sacred Realm, since according to TP he is discovered and captured.
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Your take on the NES Zelda is correct, but I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.
Just thought it was worth a note, is all... Similar scenario.
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IMHO there is no greater exercise in futility than trying to make sense of the Zelda timeline.
Figure out the Mario timeline, I dare you.
IMO, Zelda's jumbled timeline is on the level of futility of figuring out a Sonic timeline... which I've tried.
The Zelda Timeline at current time is doable. The timeline split is after all addressed in interviews:
–When does Twilight Princess take place?
Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.
–And the Wind Waker?
Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something outrageous, so it was decided that he should be executed. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...
With that figured out, the next oddity in the Zelda series would be the Seal War from OoT leading to LttP, but Capcom straightened it out with Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures. Furthermore, Four Swords Adventures gave us an account of Ganon's revival after WW, and in that way ultimately linked NES Zelda with Oracle.
Honestly, the Zelda timeline thanks to Capcom got straightened out a lot, even if LA is in understandable dispute between LttP and Oracle and Minish Cap is confusing with it's Light Force. But if MC was a pre OoT game as some theories go, then Vaati is in both WW and TP's timeline games, even though he only appeared in WW timeline games.
Let's see... If I recall it right, it goes as follows.
OoT>MM>TP>LCT
(MC)>OoT>WW>PH>(MC)>FS>FSA>LttP>(LA)||AST>>Z1>Z2>Oracle>(LA)
Why is it that Link, the Hero of Time, is the *ONLY* thing to not coexist in both time forks? Zelda does, Ganon does, all Triforce parts do, and the Master Sword does.
Because he's the only one doing the actual time traveling, naturally.
The King of the Red Lions says to WW Link, that the Triforce of Courage got split as the Hero of Time left Hyrule. This was the moment were OoT Link, the Hero of Time got send back in time to a point, before he meet Zelda as child.
Aside from in game quotes, I distinctly recall an interview in which they proclaimed the split Triforce was indeed caused by Link being send back in time. And this is indeed similar to how the Triforce of Wisdom was split by Zelda in NES Zelda.
Of course, the Triforce of Courage is also with Link that traveled back, and subsequently with TP Link. The heritage aspect of the Triforce in TP is interesting, since in all the games following the Wind Waker timeline don't have it, just like those are the only games with the split Triforce pieces. In that timeline, the mark of the Triforce for NES Link and Oracle Link are not the possession of the Triforce, but rather that he's the hero chosen by the Triforce.
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Honestly, the Zelda timeline thanks to Capcom got straightened out a lot, even if LA is in understandable dispute between LttP and Oracle and Minish Cap is unsure of wether it's a pre OoT or post WW game.
Capcom straightening out timelines? That's just crazy! XD
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With that figured out, the next oddity in the Zelda series would be the Seal War from OoT leading to LttP, but Capcom straightened it out with Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures.
Mind explaining how?
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Figure out the Mario timeline, I dare you.
The world isn't ready for this. Also, I am absolutely shocked that no one has sarcastically drawn a picture of the Zelda cast in summer yet. XD
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The world isn't ready for this. Also, I am absolutely shocked that no one has sarcastically drawn a picture of the Zelda cast in summer yet. XD
Close Enough? (http://lol.rockmanpm.com/artgallery/akira/zeldabikini.jpg)
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Forgot to ask...
Figure out the Mario timeline, I dare you.
Is there any reason to believe that it is not in order of release?
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Mind explaining how?
In many ways, both OoT and FSA depict the Seal War, but neither do it fully. LttP's story is about the two separate events combined. OoT is obvious, the names of the Sages match those of the Z2 town which were said to be named after the Sages that sealed Ganon. However, OoT does not fully depict it, there are elements unadressed that exist in LttP's story, not to mention, in WW, Ganon broke the seal and died. For OoT>LttP to add up, you simply need to have FSA in there. Afterall, the palace of the Four Sword exists in GBA LttP and Ganon is sealed away in FSA, where the events leading up to this sealing fill in the gaps of the story of the Seal War as LttP presented it.
Another point of FSA fixing OoT>LttP is about the same way FSA connects NES Zelda and Oracle. The connection lies with Ganon, his 'blue pig' form.
After the death of Ganon in WW, a new Gerudo leader is born with the name of Ganondorf. This Ganondorf soon becomes Ganon "ancient demon reborn" through the use of the Trident of Power, but he's sealed away. This new Ganon takes the form of a a blue pig wielding a trident. In LttP and subsequently in the timeline NES Zelda and Oracle, the blue pig with a Trident appears. The previous Ganon, WW and TP, never had the Trident and looked quite different, the old Ganon was always in human form until the final battle, the new Ganon never once reverted back to human form.
Is there any reason to believe that it is not in order of release?
Consider that there are several Mario sub-series. Donkey Kong, Wario occurring parallel to it. Then there's the gameboy games, RPGs by different makers and then there's the Yoshi Island backstory, and party and sports games thrown into the mix. Good luck.
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I don't think Mario is the type of game where story is meant to be taken seriously, considering that the recurring villain is invited to most of the sports outings; several of which being immediately after his latest plot was foiled (DDR Mario Mix and Mario Party DS).
Sonic is iffy due to being reinvented with Adventure, but the manner in which games tie in is still fairly manageable.
With that figured out, the next oddity in the Zelda series would be the Seal War from OoT leading to LttP, but Capcom straightened it out with Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures. Furthermore, Four Swords Adventures gave us an account of Ganon's revival after WW, and in that way ultimately linked NES Zelda with Oracle.
Except that Eiji Aonuma stated that the Four Swords arc (Minish Cap, FS, and FSA) is prior to OoT, with the LttP notions being purely nostalgic. Despite such references being extremely heavy in FSA, note that there is no reference to the Triforce, only to Ganon's trident. Ganon's history is also something of a red flag, his heritage with the Gerudo isn't something that's likely to survive in a post-flood age where the land of Hyrule itself is legend.
It is possible that the "blue pig/trident" Ganon was sealed prior to OoT and resurfaced after OoT's Ganon died, but the manner in which that is relevant to the sealing war that is, or was supposed to be, OoT is kinda fuzzy. But to state that FSA is post-WW contradicts developer interviews.
Because he's the only one doing the actual time traveling, naturally.
The Master Sword is time traveling as much as Link is.
Aside from in game quotes, I distinctly recall an interview in which they proclaimed the split Triforce was indeed caused by Link being send back in time. And this is indeed similar to how the Triforce of Wisdom was split by Zelda in NES Zelda.
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Except that Eiji Aonuma stated that the Four Swords arc (Minish Cap, FS, and FSA) is prior to OoT, with the LttP notions being purely nostalgic.
No, only Minish Cap is pre-OoT, how else do you explain Ganon as the final boss in FSA?
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I believe both Zan and I have made note of the FSA Ganon being a pattern break from the OoT/WW/TP Ganon, characterized by the trident among other things.
In FSA, Gerudo tribe members note Ganondorf as having defied their laws and entered a forbidden pyramid to obtain his trident, thus becoming the lord of darkness and all. No way, no how, is that relevant to OoT's Ganon, who lacks such a trident, and knowledge of his ties to any OoT tribe in a post-WW world are unlikely to survive across the ages. Ganon in FSA has no backstory beyond what FSA in and of itself presents, there's nothing within FSA that links him to OoT.
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I don't think Mario is the type of game where story is meant to be taken seriously
That's why it's futile >.>
The Master Sword is time traveling as much as Link is.
Obviously Zelda sent Link back in time without the Master Sword >.>
Except that Eiji Aonuma stated that the Four Swords arc (Minish Cap, FS, and FSA) is prior to OoT, with the LttP notions being purely nostalgic. Despite such references being extremely heavy in FSA, note that there is no reference to the Triforce, only to Ganon's trident. Ganon's history is also something of a red flag, his heritage with the Gerudo isn't something that's likely to survive in a post-flood age where the land of Hyrule itself is legend.
Well aware of that statement "oldest tale". But that's just the Minish Cap question that still lingers. The tale of Four Swords starts with Minish Cap, which might or might not be pre OoT, making it possibly the oldest tale in the Zelda universe. But, Aonuma also implicated that the story of FS might have changed overtime, possibly discarding the other quote. Personally I would place Minish Cap after OoT for the sake of the timeline split and the Vaati seal in the new Hyrule, but nothing is stopping it from being pre OoT, especially since Vaati's backstory from MC to FS is lacking as much as OoT being the LttP Seal War is.
As addressed in my previous post, FSA>LttP is fairly solid, especially with the GBA LttP bonus dungeon.
In FSA, Gerudo tribe members note Ganondorf as having defied their laws and entered a forbidden pyramid to obtain his trident. No way, no how, is that relevant to OoT's Ganon, who lacks such a trident, and knowledge of his ties to any tribe in a post-WW world are unlikely to survive across the ages.
It kinda of sounds like you're implicating FSA Ganon could have existed before OoT Ganon, though. The multiple connections between FSA, LttP, NES Zelda and Oracle, and ofcourse LttP to OoT, make this highly unlikely.
OoT Ganon might not have used a Trident, but it's surely an item very thematically close to WW's world of water. Considering how Ganon reincarnates due to it, a revival and death between WW and FSA to introduce the Trident is entirely possible. Or any other ways to introduce it. It's still a missing link, but I don't think it can be doubted that the order is indeed OoT>FSA and not the other way around.
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So, anybody man enough to figure out where Tingle's game fits in?..
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Well aware of that statement "oldest tale". But that's just the Minish Cap question that still lingers. The tale of Four Swords starts with Minish Cap, which might or might not be pre OoT, making it possibly the oldest tale in the Zelda universe. But, Aonuma also implicated that the story of FS might have changed overtime, possibly discarding the other quote.
However, Aonuma's "oldest tale" quote refers to the original Four Swords, and he merely notes FSA as being a sequel to it. The comments on the FS story changing are a reference to the development of Adventures, not the original. While that comment may call his previous "oldest tale" statement into question, it does not invalidate it.
Consider this: The interview with the "oldest tale" quote is from the 2004 Game Developer's Conference, which was early March. FSA's Japanese release date was March 18, 2004. At no more than 2 1/2 weeks prior to the game's street date, any development disorganization referenced in the later quote had already passed.
Landmarks are the main thing linking FS and FSA to similar settings. Landmarks, likewise, are what links FSA to the GBA LttP more definitively. Ordinarily, there should not be definitive landmarks between games before and after Wind Waker. But in the case of the Four Sword dungeon there is a loophole: the dungeon in the GBA LttP game isn't in Hyrule, it's in the Sacred Realm.
The lack of a Triforce reference in FSA is another real killer.
Personally I would place Minish Cap after OoT for the sake of the timeline split and the Vaati seal in the new Hyrule, but nothing is stopping it from being pre OoT
FS and FSA are in the same physical area, the Four Sword and Vaati's seal being confirmation of such. If there is no reason that FS cannot be before OoT, then there is no reason that FSA cannot be before OoT.
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However, Aonuma's "oldest tale" quote refers to the original Four Swords, and he merely notes FSA as being a sequel to it. The comments on the FS story changing are a reference to the development of Adventures, not the original.
FS however is about the legend of Vaati, which is introduced in FS. Which muddles whether the oldest tale is FS the game or the legend of Vaati.
Landmarks are the main thing linking FS and FSA to similar settings. Landmarks, likewise, are what links FSA to the GBA LttP more definitively. Ordinarily, there should not be definitive landmarks between games before and after Wind Waker. But in the case of the Four Sword dungeon there is a loophole: the dungeon in the GBA LttP game isn't in Hyrule, it's in the Sacred Realm.
I actually think Ganon himself is the biggest link, and all in all, I consider it quite odd, by your proposal to have two Ganons sealed in the Sacred Realm at the exact same time. OoT Ganon sealed away into the Sacred Realm, and FSA Ganon sealed away in the Sacred Realm for LttP. How does that even work out? Two Ganons at the exact same time?... Even if they're sealed in different places, they're still the same "ancient demon" that was reborn in FSA. Two at the same time... It was already odd when we had two Zelda's, let alone two Ganons.
When it comes to FSA Ganon being "Ancient Demon Reborn", OoT is the original Ganondorf that became "Ganon." The power that turned him into Ganon is his own, not the legacy of a previous Ganon, unlike FSA Ganon.
The lack of a Triforce reference in FSA is another real killer.
After the events of WW, the Triforce should be in the Sacred Realm.
FS and FSA are in the same physical area, the Four Sword and Vaati's seal being confirmation of such. FSA takes place wherever FS takes place, so if there is no reason that FS cannot be before OoT, then there is no reason that FSA cannot be before OoT.
What I meant is that MC can take place in quite a different Hyrule than FS and FSA, simply because Vaati is destined to recover from the MC events, kidnap some maidens and be sealed away. FS's account of Vaati's origins do not match with MC. As mentioned above, Ganon appears to dictate a post WW scenario for FS and FSA. So, Minish Cap, and thus the legend of Vaati can be the oldest tale in the Zelda series, but FS and FSA aren't necessarily before OoT.
The comments on the FS story changing are a reference to the development of Adventures, not the original.
But FSA is the continuation of FS and could easily retcon Aonuma's statement of "oldest tale."
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I actually think Ganon himself is the biggest link, and all in all, I consider it quite odd, by your proposal to have two Ganons sealed in the Sacred Realm at the exact same time. OoT Ganon sealed away into the Sacred Realm, and FSA Ganon sealed away in the Sacred Realm for LttP. How does that even work out? Two Ganons at the exact same time?...
By no means (it was an idea, there are other ways to work it). You permitted yourself a missing link between WW and FSA in your timeline, now I'll give you one between FSA and LttP: Ganon in FSA is sealed within the Four Sword itself. There is no reference to this aspect of his sealing in LttP, nor in any other game that could conceivably occur after FSA. Also, the Four Sword when last we see it in FSA is merged into one. In the Palace of the Four Sword, you find four different swords.
Besides, the Palace of the Four Sword references the Four Sword concept, but there is no such palace in any of the Four Sword games. Who's to say the location even ties specifically to a previous title at all? On that same note, what part of FSA's ending confirms Ganon being sent to the Sacred Realm in the first place?
And, dare I say it, but has it occurred to anyone that the Palace of the Four Sword may be canonically questionable? It's an unlockable feature dependent on your progress in the Four Swords multiplayer game, as well as having already defeated Ganon in LttP. Is there anything validating its presence in the game before that?
When it comes to FSA Ganon being "Ancient Demon Reborn", OoT is the original Ganondorf that became "Ganon." The power that turned him into Ganon is his own, not the legacy of a previous Ganon, unlike FSA Ganon.
FSA references an "ancient demon" and a "spirit of magic trident". An ancient evil, yes, but not necessarily a past Ganon.
But FSA is the continuation of FS and could easily retcon Aonuma's statement of "oldest tale."
I did some further research and edited my last post accordingly: The "oldest tale" quote was at Four Swords Adventures' imminent release, thus its story has already been established. This despite the fact that Aonuma is referring to, "The GBA Four Swords Zelda" in that statement.
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By no means. You permitted yourself a missing link between WW and FSA in your timeline, now I'll give you one between FSA and LttP: Ganon in FSA is sealed within the Four Sword itself.
I'm aware of that, but that should be where the Palace of the Four Sword comes in. Ganon ends up in the Sacred Realm, and so does the Four Sword. That can't be unrelated.
A point of interest here is the mirror from FSA, which is the same concept as the Mirror of Twilight and LttP's magical mirror. One sealed away a dark tribe long ago, the other sealed away the Twili long ago, the other is the link to the Sacred Realm and back and they might all really be the same...
Of course, we still have missing links in the Zelda timeline nowadays, but it's all a lot better now than it was in the past.
I did some further research and edited my last post accordingly: The "oldest tale" quote was at Four Swords Adventures' imminent release, thus its story has already been established. This despite the fact that Aonuma is referring to, "The GBA Four Swords Zelda" in that statement.
Followed by Aonuma saying the story changed then, so who knows if it still holds true. It could be akin to TP no longer being post WW despite early notions.
Which reminds, your landmark comment. If I were to argue it that, I'd say it's very much of note how FSA features a Hyrule surrounded by water. Which seems to be WW related. MC on the other hand does not... You know, thinking more about this supposed 'Light Force' and how this really ties in with nothing else, I'm also starting to lean to the pre-OoT placement of it. (Even if it's entirely confusing in relation to the origin of the Triforce.) But for FS>FSA, I do think that's the new Hyrule established after WW. Missing link Vaati creating the FS shrine - maiden kidnapping backstory in this time period.
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Man, talk about a Triforce of Confusion. I admire you guys for trying to make sense out of this.
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I'm aware of that, but that should be where the Palace of the Four Sword comes in. Ganon ends up in the Sacred Realm, and so does the Four Sword. That can't be unrelated.
Which, again, assumes that the Palace of the Four Sword appearing within the Pyramid of Power is canonically valid, despite it being an extra from after the game's storyline is already beaten.
Followed by Aonuma saying the story changed then, so who knows if it still holds true. It could be akin to TP no longer being post WW despite early notions.
Those notions were not two weeks prior to release. The game is for all intents and purposes done by that point, it's manufacturing/shipping time. Aonuma said that the story changed during development.
I'm not saying with certainty that FSA is prior to OoT, mind you, it's naive to assume that whatever Zelda timeline exists is not subject to a rewrite. I'm just saying it's still a valid possibility. To say that FSA for certain leads into LttP is an overstatement. I've played the game in full, and yes the references kinda smack you in the face, but it's hard to separate the story-relevant from the design/thematic. FSA Ganon is given no backstory beyond his search for the trident, and his condition in the ending doesn't directly tie to any other game.
One similarity that is definitely thematic is the Royal Gems, that is precious stones being guarded by the knights of Hyrule. This is a reference to the Pendant of Courage said to have been guarded by the Knights of Hyrule "generations ago" who were nearly wiped out during the sealing war (Knights took a critical hit in FSA). However, there are four Gems, whereas there are only three Pendants. And the Pendants being linked to the Master Sword suggests a more likely story-wise link with the OoT Spiritual Stones.
Then there's the Moon Pearl/Dark World. There's one Moon Pearl in LttP; there are tons in FSA. Likewise, FSA's Moon Pearls are keys to a "Dark World", but the LttP Dark World is actually the Sacred Realm (or "Golden Land", that is the home of the Triforce), and it does not become the Dark World until after Ganon gets his hands on the Triforce. Yet the FSA Dark World maintains the same "shadow world" connection with Hyrule that LttP's Dark World does.
Also, placing FSA after Wind Waker makes it an aberration in that it would be the ONLY post-WW game to feature the Gerudo. They have only previously appeared in OoT and MM.
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Also, FSA if after Wind Waker is an aberration in that it is the ONLY game besides OoT and MM to feature the Gerudo.
Well... Twinrova is fairly persistent, being in Oracle and all. There's also some PH characters that seem linked to the Gerudo... I'd say that it'd be even odder if FSA and OoT Gerudo were the same, the King of Darkness coming twice from the Gerudo.. WW's world reset is a convenient means to have the Gerudo re-establish themselves in favorable light, until the reappearance of Ganon once again drives them to extinction.
Sure, FSA pre OoT might be doable, but it requires quite a few stretches, two Ganon at once being amongst the biggest of stretches. Like I said, it was weird enough when Zelda did it...
Then with MC, which also might or might not be pre OoT also... aside from Vaati's legend, how far back does the Four Sword legends go? Does the Picori Blade predate the Master Sword? The Four Sword Palace seems to indicate it's not the same blade, afterall. Who knows which of those two has the "oldest tale" >.>
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As far as I'm aware no game that could be argued to be pre-OoT features the Master Sword. It's stated to have been forged (and/or infused with the power to repel evil) by the pre-OoT Sages, but the actual event has never been covered by any game that I'm aware.
For the Gerudo re-establishing themselves, you have to ask why they're not in WW or PH. I don't really see what's so odd about the king of darkness coming from them twice. Most/all of the Links/Zeldas share a blood relation. And I don't see any Ganon getting down with the ladies after they've started their world conquest career (well, there is the Twinrova, but for the sake of all our souls I dare not think about it).
Sure, FSA pre OoT might be doable, but it requires quite a few stretches, two Ganon at once being amongst the biggest of stretches. Like I said, it was weird enough when Zelda did it...
Weird, but she did it.
Besides, two simultaneous Ganons isn't required. Merely a pre-OoT Ganon is. Since there's so many "missing links" regardless, FSA Ganon could be killed prior and the blue pig/trident thing dismissed as a thematic deal. Before FSA, there was no real significance to Ganon's trident in the storyline. It was merely a recurring thing, much like Ganondorf carrying a sword from SSB Melee/GCN tech demos up until the present.
For that matter, who's to say the FSA Ganon is immortal? Lacking the Triforce of Power and all, the responsibility for sustaining him falls solely on his magical trident.
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....
So, anybody man enough to figure out where Tingle's game fits in?..
There's this thing called a Miniature Plot you know, But then.. where does the CD-i Zeldas fit in...?
Talk about uber godmodding timeline changers, oh boy!
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Probably Nintendo's shredder. Just because they were licensed doesn't mean the owner has any interest in preserving them.
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Probably Nintendo's shredder. Just because they were licensed doesn't mean the owner has any interest in preserving them.
I'm pretty sure it's called a Shredded Plot, probably like Tingle's game.
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Time to End Game.
Legend of Zelda is just one large incestuous set of adventures between the LinkxGanonxZelda family.
LOTSA incest.
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What about Malon?
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If you believe that in-breeding leads to one's alternate-reality selves being their own sisters (and I can think of no better explanation), then yeah. Malon's pretty messed up.
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If you believe that in-breeding leads to one's alternate-reality selves being their own sisters (and I can think of no better explanation), then yeah. Malon's pretty messed up.
This.
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Sweet mother of God, you know there's nothing to talk about when trying to piece together the Zelda time line becomes a heated debate. XD
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It needs to be said. Zelda timeline, serious business.
I say that if you want to have everything Zelda in a timeline, it look something like this. Feel free to correct me >.>
Minish Cap > Ocarina of Time > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess
Minish Cap > Ocarina of Time > Wind Waker > Phantom Hourglass > Four Swords > Four Swords Adventure > A Link to the Past > Link's Awakening > Zelda 1 > TV show > Faces of Evil/Wand of Gamelon > Adventure of Link > Oracle of Ages/Season
-I was gonna place the oracles before Zelda 1, but then I remembered the resurrection part and thought that it could work better after AoL. I can't explain how Twinrova is there though.
-TV show and CDi games are there because I did say everything Zelda afterall XD
-Tingle's game is not really a Zelda game, that's why it's not there.
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It's settled to just assume it's one large incestuously messed up tree.
Also. CDi, incest gone wrong.
Don't try to piece together a "timeline" because it all leads back to one thing.
The Three Sexy Bitches.
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Man, talk about a Triforce of Confusion. I admire you guys for trying to make sense out of this.
Thats why I sum it up like this: alternate universes. It never fails.
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As far as I'm aware no game that could be argued to be pre-OoT features the Master Sword. It's stated to have been forged (and/or infused with the power to repel evil) by the pre-OoT Sages, but the actual event has never been covered by any game that I'm aware.
How far back do these pre-OoT sages go? Even in OoT the Master Sword sleeps inside of the Temple of Time. And in my recent replay through OoT I got the distinct impression there was indeed a previous hero of time.
you have to ask why they're not in WW or PH.
Well, Ganon did do some massive invasion, the hero of time did not come and the world flooded. As said, there are a few characters that resemble Gerudo in PH. Not to mention that Ganon's failure, as hinted by TP not having the Gerudo, would lead to the Gerudo's disappearance. It's a mystery where they went, but some we have no exact confirmation of all of them being gone, they could re-establish themselves.
I don't really see what's so odd about the king of darkness coming from them twice.
Him coming twice from the Gerudo isn't odd, it's just that in neither case, there's a recollection of the former. Which there would have to be if the Gerudo never vanished between FSA<>OoT. The fact that they gave birth to the King of Darkness, twice, and with Twinrova being the mother still... you'd think they'd remember... So, a bit of separation between FSA and OoT is quite mandatory.
For that matter, who's to say the FSA Ganon is immortal? Lacking the Triforce of Power and all, the responsibility for sustaining him falls solely on his magical trident.
If he indeed made his way into the Sacred Realm, by however the Four Sword got there, there's the full Triforce right there. But, was there ever anything that got attributed to Ganon's immortality in the first place?
Anyway, I think with how the Zelda timeline goes right now, it is very much matters of trying to fill as many gaps as currently possible. With Ganon dead as of WW, and revived as of FSA, it's very much a matter of convenience and the path of least resistance. Even though it doesn't have to go that way.
Setting up a Zelda timeline right now wouldn't be a matter of placing them all in linear order with a branch, but rather, figure out the 'region' in which a game takes place, and note the uncertainties.
Thus...
OoT>MM>TP>LCT
OoT>WW>PH>LttP>AST>LoZ>AoL>Oracle
MC>FS>FSA>LttP>AST>LoZ>AoL>Oracle
with either LttP>LA||AST> or Oracle>LA. AST being pseudo-canon, what it implicates about Ganon, Link and Zelda would be correct after the wish to the Triforce changing the setting to lead toward LoZ, but the actual events of AST, with it's Satellaview hero, are very questionable.
-Tingle's game is not really a Zelda game, that's why it's not there.
But Tingle is a character in the Zelda universe, being around as early as MM and MC.
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Sure, Tingle is a Zelda character, but his game has nothing to do with the rest of the series, and if for some reason you wanted to include it in the timeline, it just fits everywhere I guess.
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How far back do these pre-OoT sages go? Even in OoT the Master Sword sleeps inside of the Temple of Time. And in my recent replay through OoT I got the distinct impression there was indeed a previous hero of time.
SSB Brawl notes the Sages forging the Master Sword in the TP Sage trophy. Wind Waker also establishes a connection between the Sages and the Master Sword's power to repel evil. So the Sages go at least as far back as the Master Sword does, but since we don't know how far that is, it's a giant question mark. The Master Sword seems to be fairly well-known even in OoT, though, seeings how Navi recognizes it.
Ganon's failure, as hinted by TP not having the Gerudo, would lead to the Gerudo's disappearance. It's a mystery where they went, but some we have no exact confirmation of all of them being gone, they could re-establish themselves.
The Gerudo Desert in Twilight Princess is the location of the Arbiter's Grounds, where the Mirror of Twilight is kept. The Sages also reside there, and of course this is the same area where Ganondorf's execution was to be held. So, presumably, the Gerudo cleared out, and the royal family's reach extended there over the course of the OoT generation, before Ganondorf was executed. Whether they left of their own accord or were removed forcibly isn't known, but considering what the Mirror of Twilight was there for, it's likely that if any Gerudo were captured, they were assimilated into the Twili.
Him coming twice from the Gerudo isn't odd, it's just that in neither case, there's a recollection of the former. Which there would have to be if the Gerudo never vanished between FSA<>OoT. The fact that they gave birth to the King of Darkness, twice, and with Twinrova being the mother still... you'd think they'd remember...
(http://mysite.verizon.net/Serpentara/holdit.gif)
What do the Twinrova possibly have to do with FSA? They appear only in OoT, MM, and Oracles. And in Majora they're actually friendly (granted that's Termina and not Hyrule).
Considering the Gerudo only have one male to them born every century, your argument could be pretty well applied no matter which one comes first. Furthermore, the FSA Ganon isn't all that infamous. The Gerudo hate him for violating their laws and entering the forbidden pyramid, but what happened to him after that isn't general knowledge. Ganon doesn't make his presence known until after Vaati is defeated, very near the end of the game. Hyrule as a whole isn't aware of what happened the way they are in OoT.
If he indeed made his way into the Sacred Realm, by however the Four Sword got there, there's the full Triforce right there.
But this is why the lack of a Triforce mention in FSA would be so odd in the first place. The ONLY way FSA is linked to the Sacred Realm is if the Four Sword Sanctuary, where Vaati and later Ganon are sealed, is part of it. But if that's the case, and Ganon had access to it all this time (shadow Link emerges from there), why stop at releasing Vaati? It doesn't make any sense.
With Ganon dead as of WW, and revived as of FSA, it's very much a matter of convenience and the path of least resistance.
That's just it, Ganon being revived in FSA is fanon. There IS no revival mentioned in the game. There is nothing to indicate that FSA Ganon performed any acts of evil before he entered the forbidden Gerudo pyramid, the "ancient demon" likely refers to the power of the trident, which is the focus of Ganon's power in FSA anyway.
One of the six maidens dismisses the name "Ganondorf" as being merely a desert nomad, unable to understand why forest monsters would worship him. They don't recognize the shorter name "Ganon" at all. Clearly, the FSA Ganondorf has not been previously established as the king of darkness. So the argument of FSA Ganondorf being a revival of a previous Ganondorf is extremely weak, if even the maidens don't know him. To add to this, the Gerudo conversations indicate that the theft of the trident, the furthest back "evil act" to be associated with FSA Ganon, is recent. Some of them claim to not know what his "plans", present-tense, are. Others believe him to have died failing to reach the pyramid. The road to the desert pyramid was blocked following Ganondorf's intrusion, and you have to speak to the guards in order to pass.
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Whether they left of their own accord or were removed forcibly isn't known, but considering what the Mirror of Twilight was there for, it's likely that if any Gerudo were captured, they were assimilated into the Twili.
Hmm, maybe this is why Midna is sort of sexy while the other Twilis are blobs.
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To be fair, I'm not sure if any of the other Twili seen were female. That and they were all transformed back from Shadow Beasts, they seem to still be "out of it". Since the transformation to Shadow Beast was a gradual shift, it's easily possible that the transformation back takes time to complete as well.
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>_> Oh [parasitic bomb]. OK, whoever started this opened a door that cannot but shut until the day is done.
Oh well... Zan vs Hypershell. HEAVEN OR HELL!
FIGHT!!!
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*smacks Aresian with his magical talking fish*
How come I have to be hell?!
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ITT: People think too much.
>_> Oh [parasitic bomb]. OK, whoever started this opened a door that cannot but shut until the day is done.
Oh well... Zan vs Hypershell. HEAVEN OR HELL!
FIGHT!!!
it's LET'S ROCK.