RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Original => Topic started by: CyberXIII on July 13, 2009, 05:35:34 PM
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Wily is about the most dangerous man in the world. His rebellions have cost billions of lives and trillions of dollars in property damage. Wouldn't killing him save many more lives?
I ask because Mega Man wasn't allowed to shoot Wily thanks to the "Robot must not harm a human being" rule. Wouldn't a robot come to the conclusion that killing one life would save billions more?
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I assume that Mega's primary ruleset disallows him from killing humans entirely and that he cannot adapt the way he thinks (unlike X).
Of course, this is all just speculation, so you might want to get Zan.
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Asimov is not Rockman.
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Jeezz Megaman doesn´t even want to kill the RM´s and you expect him to kill Wily? Bad CyberXIII !
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Proto Man: "Naive as always... Do what you want then!"
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It'd be nice if the american version didn't translate that final bit of dialogue like complete ass. I somehow doubt Rock was all "DIE WILLY!!!!!" at the end of Rock 7 in japanese.
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At that part in the Japanese game, Rockman just goes "...".
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Capcom of America was doing the reverse 4Kids thing
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Edgy and grimdark?
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i thought the Die Wily deal was pretty badass, actually. especially seeing how much of a pussy he is everywhere else.
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Edgy and grimdark?
IT IS THE XTH DECADE, AND THERE IS ONLY WAR.
(Rock's an Ultramarine, how lame.)
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i thought the Die Wily deal was pretty badass, actually. especially seeing how much of a pussy he is everywhere else.
Get Out
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badass in an absurd way that makes me laugh.
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Asimov is not Rockman.
Maybe not, but there are indications of such not expressed.
i thought the Die Wily deal was pretty badass, actually. especially seeing how much of a pussy he is everywhere else.
Wasn't that phrasing in MM7 only in the Localized version?
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Asimov is not Rockman.
It's IN Megaman (the series, not the robot) though, so I would be surprised if they didn't use his laws, or more likely some equivalent, for their robots.
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Wasn't that phrasing in MM7 only in the Localized version?
yeah. in Japan, he stayed silent and began charging his lazer. which is actually even more badass than the US change.
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Inafune is a fan of Tezuka and it shows in his writing. It's pretty clear that Tezuka was also a fan of Asimov, so I think it's fair to say that some Asimov worked its way in. Asimov himself proposed the 0th law of robotics stating that the survival of humanity as a whole overrides the value of a single human life. Though any robot capable of coming to this conclusion would either completely burn out its brain trying to resolve this issue before acting, or if advanced enough, just after.
Megaman's hesitation did kind of make it seem like he was starting to lock up. I think firing would have probably killed him as well as Wily. Compared to classic Megaman, X and the reploids based on his design were unique for having no laws and rather free will to decide. It's kind of hinted at in Megaman Power Battles when Dr. Light talks about how robots need more advanced AI to resolve difficult issues. I think the idea behind X was to replace the Asimov laws with a form of artificial conscience, thus instilling robots with a sense of empathy for living things and each other.
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I think the idea behind X was to replace the Asimov laws with a form of artificial conscience, thus instilling robots with a sense of empathy for living things and each other.
I like this thought. After all, Asimov was a fool. And a good writer.
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Classic series robots were never bound by Asimov's laws. Sure, Light cited the first rule of robotics. That does not mean these laws are hard-coded, it only means you shouldn't make killer robots. Rockman robots work with a conscience, not with Asimov. If Rock kills a human, he's going to feel very very very guilty. You know, like a human would.
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cue super adventure rockman's exploding helicopters
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cue super adventure rockman's exploding helicopters
What with them? They weren´t shot down or anything
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I CAN SEE THEIR PARACHUTES
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I think the fandom puts more emphasis on Asimov's laws than the creators do. Technically, just shooting at Wily's contraptions in every single MM games puts a human at risk - Wily himself. Hell, every time the weakness is the glass of Wily's own cockpit! You are shooting *directly at Wily*. This puts him in harm's way because his contraptione exploding has the potential to harm the occupant inside. So ... MM actively violates Asimov's first rule in every single game.
In terms of Asimov's laws, a robot wouldn't be able to harm a human in order to help another human. It could use itself to physically shield one from the other, or restrain one perhapse, but not to harm one.
In terms of Megaman himself, I think the game shows the hesitation in MM. I don't think he would have done it, ultimately. After all, he wouldn't need to charge up to kill Wily. A few "pew pew pew"s to the head and Wily's toast, I'd say.
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I don't buy the "Asimov's Three Laws in Megaman" thing, either.
What I think Wily was getting at is, "If you shoot me, the penalties will be far harsher than if you were a human." It could go one of two ways if Megaman killed him--either the higher-ups would think he was dangerous (what's to stop him from shooting anyone else?) and have him shut down, or they would be impressed and put him in more dangerous situations, believing his lack of hesitation to be a boon. Either way, Megaman is screwed.
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Considering Wily intends to take over the world with robots, I don't think people take Asimov seriously in the Classic universe.
IT IS THE XTH DECADE, AND THERE IS ONLY WAR.
(Rock's an Ultramarine, how lame.)
(http://i31.tinypic.com/21nlefm.jpg)
FEAR NOT THE ROBOT MASTER TO LIVE
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Hm.....
Why doesn't Megaman Shoot Wily?
1. Who would be the enemy then? where would be the danger? where would be the sequels?? -God bless MM9-
2. Seriously, can there be a better Evil scientist than Wily himself? its IMPOSSIBLE to create better than him! he is too loved as an antagonist to be -SHOT!-
3. No one can take his place, and we need him, who else would be the mad scientist to go on making such bad ass robots to fight with and escape by luck to finally reappear countless times?
I understand your point, to bring justice and save the world, Mega should have shot wily since long.. but story-wise he isn't -capable- of that.
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Why can't Mega Man simply shoot Dr. Wily? Someone keeps mentioning the Laws of Robotics or some other shite, but I don't remember that ever being mentioned in the games...
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I think it's moreso that it goes against Rock's preprogrammed morals.
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Also, there's the law to consider. And I'll bet the humans would freak out if they knew Megaman was capable of killing them, Wily or no.
Plus, Capcom would have to bring in a new Big Bad. I think they like Wily too much to do that.
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Why can't Mega Man simply shoot Dr. Wily?
Didn't you already make a topic about this? >_>
EDIT: Nevermind, it's been merged...
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And one right before/after this? Slow down, man.
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Yey, I can merge~ >U<
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Didn't you already make a topic about this? >_>
EDIT: Nevermind, it's been merged...
Good lord, now I know I'm getting old and senile...
Someone hit me.
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Plus, Capcom would have to bring in a new Big Bad. I think they like Wily too much to do that.
Nah, they can just invent some new mad scientist named Dr. Cossack or something, who's even more evil than Wily!
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Methinks fans are still going nuts about the "Die Wily" scene in Megaman 7, despite his canon "pacifistic" nature. Do note, that MM/RM 7 was also the only Classic series game that had [alittle] blood, and Bass did have some minor cursing in the original japanese script. I think that the MM/RM team still had some "darker" influences from when they made Mega Man X / Rockman X beforehand.
Quick Addition: This knowledge isn't 100% confirmed. It's been awhile since I bothered to check sources.
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It's X who has the pacifistic nature, the classic Megaman is more childlike and nieve.
Anyhow, even if the rule in the MM universe is "no robot can kill a human" Asimov's rule is "no robot can harm a human". So it doesn't follow Asimov any way you slice it.
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Mega Man was just blowing off some steam. He has to big of a heart to kill a living creature. It's just not in his nature. Zero, on the other hand....lol.
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Anyhow, even if the rule in the MM universe is "no robot can kill a human" Asimov's rule is "no robot can harm a human". So it doesn't follow Asimov any way you slice it.
"X" IS THE FIRST OF A NEW
GENERATION OF ROBOTS WHICH
CONTAIN AN INNOVATIVE NEW
FEATURE - THE ABILITY TO
THINK, FEEL AND MAKE THEIR
OWN DECISIONS. HOWEVER THIS
ABILITY COULD BE VERY DAN-
GEROUS. IF "X" WERE TO BREAK
THE FIRST RULE OF ROBOTICS,
"A ROBOT MUST NEVER HARM
A HUMAN BEING", THE RESULTS
WOULD BE DISASTROUS AND I
FEAR THAT NO FORCE ON EARTH
COULD STOP HIM.
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(http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/x/rockmanx1/script/script_warning_e.png) (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/x/rockmanx1/script/script_warning_e.png)
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Thread over. XD
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Took two months to correct me on that. You guys are slipping.
Of course, MM still shoots directly at Wily in every single MM game he's ever in. And causes the vehicle he's in to explode. Which pretty clearly puts Wily in harms way. So, Asimov's rules FAIL in the MM universe.
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No force on Earth can stop Original MegaMan! He is disastrous!
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Wait, wasn't this whole "DIE WILY" thing only in english version? I could be wrong tough.
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Yea it was in the English one. The Japanese one has Rock just being quiet. ^^
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Then what are we arguing about?
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There's an argue because... (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=2363.0)
(http://lol.rockmanpm.com/iammorethanarobotdiewily.png)
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LoL, how dramatic! XD
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Took two months to correct me on that. You guys are slipping.
Of course, MM still shoots directly at Wily in every single MM game he's ever in. And causes the vehicle he's in to explode. Which pretty clearly puts Wily in harms way. So, Asimov's rules FAIL in the MM universe.
I'm more surprised why nobody jumped on Turian for Necromancy before that.
And really, it's not that Asimov's three rules of robotics don't apply to Rockman/MegaMan, it's just that they don't apply in the same way as Asimov uses them; instead of being literally coded into a robot, they're rules that are kept in mind when making robots.
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I'm more surprised why nobody jumped on Turian for Necromancy before that.
And really, it's not that Asimov's three rules of robotics don't apply to Rockman/MegaMan, it's just that they don't apply in the same way as Asimov uses them; instead of being literally coded into a robot, they're rules that are kept in mind when making robots.
Edit:
No, no ... least I be drawn into another debate. I'll just leave it at a vague, "I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe" and leave it at that. Other people can debate all they like.
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There's an argue because... (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=2363.0)
(http://lol.rockmanpm.com/iammorethanarobotdiewily.png)
Hihi.... Do you know that you could literally kill Wily after the Wily Machine Battle with Toads Man´s Rain Flush?
It works well, but the game punishes you for killing him.
MegaMan 4 - How to KILL Dr Wily, litterally... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrEjE8ZD5b4&fmt=18)
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Edit:
No, no ... least I be drawn into another debate. I'll just leave it at a vague, "I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe" and leave it at that. Other people can debate all they like.
What, you don't think your own robots indiscriminately starting to harm humans is a bad thing that robot designers should avoid at all costs?
Light sure as hell ain't making robots for them to go and do that.
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What, you don't think your own robots indiscriminately starting to harm humans is a bad thing that robot designers should avoid at all costs?
Light sure as hell ain't making robots for them to go and do that.
"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
@Thanatos-Zero
I have seen the glitch that lets you kill Wily. Also, in PC3 you fire DIRECTLY AT WILY and he explodes. The picture at the end shows him bowing to MM, but .... I think we all know the truth. Ditto in MM for Game Gear. There's a few ways MM kills the good doctor in the games.
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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
Programming all his robots to be good robots IS the practical application of Asimov's rules here.
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Programming all his robots to be good robots IS the practical application of Asimov's rules here.
It's great that all of Light's robots are good, but
"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
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If that were true, all robots in the entire series would be indiscriminately harming humans.
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If that were true, all robots in the entire series would be indiscriminately harming humans.
Again.
"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&feature=related
A human being put in harm's way by a robot in the classic MM series. One of many examples. MM shoots Wily out of the sky in this one.
A list of robots who can put Wily in harm's way by shooting a vehicles while he's inside:
Megaman, unweaponised Mega, Iceman, Bombman, Fireman, Gutsman, Elecman, Cutman, Timeman, Oilman, Protoman, Bass, and Roll. Yes, Roll can violate the first rule of robotics because she's able to blow up a Wily Machine with Wily himself inside. In PU Wily ends up charred and smoking; he's hurt.
Not included are alien robots such as Sunstar, RaMoon, and Duo.
The second rule of robotics state that robots must obey the orders of a human ... now, who doesn't do that in the classic series, eh? *whistles a jaunty tune*
Regardless of the harm he's doing Wily is a human. Therefore MM (and others) can't have the rules in mind if they're gonna blow up his machines with him inside of them. Regardless of what X1 and Wily say in MM7, it's just not practically demonstratable that Asimov's rules apply in classic Megaman. MM2 for Gameboy defies you in the worst way since MM shoots down a fleeing Wily! Every single "good robot" (not to mention all the bad ones) directly violate the first rule of robotics because all of them fight Wily personally (or Wily reprograms them to take over the world, which assumes they might be able to harm humans who (at the very least) oppose Wily). Therefore, Asimov's rules just don't apply. The classic stories are not written witht he rules of robotics in mind, so the rules just don't apply. They just don't. It's a plot hole. It's a plot hole because even the main hero of the series can gun Wily's ship down as he's trying to escape.
The only rule you can demonstratably prove is true is the third. Which is why I'm saying that, although X1 and MM7 say Asimov's first rule of robotics apply, in practicality it does not. X1 and MM7 be damned. Which is why I insist that
"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
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A human being put in harm's way by a robot in the classic MM series. One of many examples. MM shoots Wily out of the sky in this one.
Now I'll be the one quoting myself:
It's not that Asimov's three rules of robotics don't apply to Rockman/MegaMan, it's just that they don't apply in the same way as Asimov uses them; instead of being literally coded into a robot, they're rules that are kept in mind when making robots.
Asimov's rules practically apply, except not in the same way as Asimov!
Robots can harm humans, robots can disobey humans, robots can end their own existence. But they're not meant to be. In other words, they're rules that the creator follows when creating their robots, they're not coded commands.
Right programs them to be robots that do no harm to humans, Right programs them to obey and work for humans, Right programs them to enjoy life and preserve it.
Dr. Thomas Right programs his robots to have free will whilst trying to avoid breaking those rules at the same time; he is not trying to create disobedient robots, he's not trying to create homicidal robots and he's not trying to create suicidal robots.
However, just because he and everyone else doesn't intend them to, doesn't mean that they can't. And it surely doesn't make them more than what Right always intended for them.
Blues is specifically programmed to be as independent as possible; he's programmed to have free will. Therefore, he's the first of his kind to work differently. Rock and others use that same basic programming but adjusted to avoid another repeat of that incident. Blues himself even reflected on the matter of himself the only robot that truly stands in opposition to the second rule:
"Robots are machines that follow order, then what does that make me?"
The simplest of robots all follow the three rules pretty strictly before they are reprogrammed by Wily. They're hardworking autonomous robots that can not think outside of the boundaries of their programming. Blues and the other robots are programmed in a completely different manner, and follow those rules in a completely different manner. But they still follow them, one way or the other.
However, of course they can shoot at Wily piloted machines to save the world, of course they can ignore orders from a mad scientist, of course they can sacrifice their lives for the sake of a friend. If they weren't capable of that, Right's robots would be nothing more than tools instead of actual characters, people, children, friends. They were always meant to have free will. And they were always meant to follow the rules of robotics because those rules are nothing more than common sense.
You speak of X1 as an anomaly. But weren't you the one that went on about not ignoring any detail about the continuity? It's there and it applies. Trying to act like it's a plothole gets you nowhere. Only when you're open minded enough not to immediately discard it can you see what's truly going on.
Besides, even if you don't like the way the game itself words it, there's more than one version of that warning that shows the amount of thought they put behind it. Most other versions of that scene are much more elaborate and therefore are a much better indiciation of the true meaning of Right's words.
“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”
The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…
The difference between X's worrying (Suffering Circuit, Kunou Kairo) and Rock's conscience (Conscience Circuit, Ryoshin Kairou) should be as clear as day; To be able to determine right and wrong for oneself, that which Dr. Right himself says in Power Battle robots can not do yet. That which he himself says robots must learn in order to become truly happy.
Let's reverse my wording; Right says that robots can not determine right and wrong for themselves. Right implicates that robots themselves can not determine such things as the three rules of robotics; it is something they have to be told. Right also says X is the only robot that can truly determine this for himself. However, simply mentioning the three rules is an oversimplification if there ever was one; right and wrong extends to many things that the three rules simply do not cover. Those other factors taken into consideration form a robot's conscience, and allow free will.
Either way, Power Battle, that right there is a classic game outright mentioning the facts that tie together both series and the infamous warning sequence, so where do you come from saying it's a plothole and there's simply no practical application?
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Either way, Power Battle, that right there is a classic game outright mentioning the facts that tie together both series and the infamous warning sequence, so where do you come from saying it's a plothole and there's simply no practical application?
[objection!]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&feature=related
Megaman guns Wily out of the [tornado fang]ing sky, there's where!
What's my point? It's a plot hole, and a pretty big one, that's my point.
"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
Stop being stubborn. Just agree to disagree already.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&feature=related
Megaman guns Wily out of the [tornado fang]ing sky, there's where!
What's my point? It's a plot hole, and a pretty big one, that's my point.
HOLD IT!
-It's a plothole- is NEVER the answer.
You speak of X1 as an anomaly. But weren't you the one that went on about not ignoring any detail about the continuity? It's there and it applies. Trying to act like it's a plothole gets you nowhere. Only when you're open minded enough not to immediately discard it can you see what's truly going on.
Also, did you just miss the essence of my previous post? I said they can seemingly break the rules easily. They're just not intended by their creators to go around doing so all the time. They're good robots with a conscience, not robots built for war.
These robots function within preprogrammed ideas of right and wrong. Right and wrong far exceeds the three rules, but still includes them. It's wrong for robots to harm humans, it's wrong for humans to harm humans, but they still do. The three rules of robotics that exists in Rockman are akin to the 10 commandments for humans. Different from Asimov's interpretation of literal coded commands that can not be denied; Rockman chooses to incorporate the three rules in a much more roundabout method that allows for free will to come into existence by stretching the rules in an almost human-like fashion.
And even if we were to apply a literal interpretation of the rules of robotics as Asimov intended, your entire argument falls flat by virtue of the 0th law.
..humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…
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-It's a plothole- is NEVER the answer.
Sure it is. Occam's razor, man.
"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"
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0th Law, Gauntlet.
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“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”
0th law is bullshit within context. If it was not bullshit then Light would know that all robots can question this "absolute requirement". And that they disregard it sometimes. This statement does not presume the presence of the 0th law while it does presume the presence of the first.
Occam's Razor: it's a plot hole.
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Don't forget, in contrast to all that precede him, X's worrying disregards the 0th law even; he considers humans and Repliroids equally. He is unbiased in affairs of humans and Repliroids.
As for R7, Wily's using a guilt ploy moreso than the literal Asimov interpretation. He's invoking Rock's conscience that it is wrong to kill him. And Rock has a pretty damn strong righteous conscience, it's that very reason why he stood up against Wily in the first place.
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Light's stetement in X1 does not presume the existence of the 0th law while presuming the existence of the first.
Wily's under duress; fine.
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But Light's statement is also a great oversimplification of the concepts he himself devised. "Worrying" is a complicated concept that leaves even the greatest scientific mind of the next century scratching his head on how it actually works.
Exactly because it's such a complicated concept, especially in relation to the robots to the programming that precede it, Occam's razor certainly does not apply here. It's not a plothole, it's the inevitable paradox of free will being given to artificial life created by human hands.
Right believes the first law to apply somehow, and we should see it as such, even if as an oversimplification of the truth.
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But Light's statement is also a great oversimplification of the concepts he himself devised. "Worrying" is a complicated concept that leaves even the greatest scientific mind of the next century scratching his head on how it actually works.
Exactly because it's such a complicated concept, especially in relation to the robots to the programming that precede it, Occam's razor certainly does not apply here. It's not a plothole, it's the inevitable paradox of free will being given to artificial life created by human hands.
Right believes the first law to apply somehow, and we should see it as such, even if as an oversimplification of the truth.
Light's stetement in X1 does not presume the existence of the 0th law while presuming the existence of the first.
The games themselves go against the first and second law of robotics.
Therefore the rules of robotics do not apply practically to the classic series robots. Occam's Razor: X1 and MM7's assertion that Asimov's rules apply are plot holes.
Just agree to disagree.
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The games themselves go against the first and second law of robotics.
But Blues himself says robots are by definition machines that follow orders.
He himself is the sole exception, why else would he wonder about his own identity in regards to that notion?
And again, the rules of robotics are a complete oversimplification of the system of conscience that's at work. The matter of free will in artificial life is not something as clear cut, simple, nor as black and white as the three laws of robotics. The three rules are intended to enforce human control over robots, whereas Right's robots are all about the integration of his robots as people in human society whilst still abiding to the basic principles of the rules of robotics as a respected scientist in that field.
The rules are at work, just not in the logical and simplistic Asimov way.
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AKA they are in their minds as norms, as "this is right this is wrong" sort of way, without being outright hardwired?
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What's the 0th law?
Let's not forget how fast Mega Man was shooting Wily when he turned into an alien. Mega Man's racist.
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AKA they are in their minds as norms, as "this is right this is wrong" sort of way, without being outright hardwired?
That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.
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Makes sense to me. :\
I dont know why we're arguing about something just added in by the localization team. Im pretty sure that if X doesnt have them hardwired, neither would Megaman. Especially since he shoots at Wily's vehicles with Wily inside. An asimov robot couldnt do that because it could "possibly threaten the human's life"
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You know, after reading the majority of this, I still hold to my thoughts that there is little difference between Rock & X.
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X has a more girlish voice
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In 8 and x4 they have the same actors.
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I maintain that Capcom only cares about the differences between robots and Reploids when it's convenient to the plot.
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Thats true. They say only X worries and has free will, But Megaman was pretty free himself, and he was just a susceptible to mind games as X, as shown by Power fighters. Although Megaman is programmed to be a goody goody. Cuz Light is a goody goody, and he wanted a goody goody little boy around the house. X was kinda left to his own devices.
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The three laws are just not practically applicable in the series. There's nothing that stops MM from blowing Wily out of the sky in 2GB.
Saying they have a losse "concience" that they can ignore is not a real application of the rules. It's a totally different thing than Asimov's rules.
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Its pretty much just a sense of morals. However, they DO have the rules in their heads one way or another, whether they are forced to abide by them or not. They KNOW the rules, in any case. If Light himself mentions them, then they are quite applicable.
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I gotta wonder: Did anyone try to force Asimov's Three Laws on the Megaman series before Megaman X and MM7 came out?
I cringe whenever they're brought up in conversations about Megaman, because Asimov had nothing to do with the series (robots who don't constantly maim people/destroy things aside), and it reeks of fanon.
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For me, it really hinges on the "laws of robotics" Dr. Light refers to in MMX1. If it's the same as Asimov's, well, that's one thing. If Dr. Light found out about the events of the ending of MM7, it would have encouraged him to build Megaman X, in an attempt to avoid any human deaths by robots.
But if Asimov's Laws do not apply, then it's just Mega Man getting sick of jumping Yoku Blocks and the damage Wily does without remorse, instead of finding a constructive way to make whatever point it was that he had in mind. Granted, though, there might still be a Maverick problem, but at least Mega Man would not be found specifically at-fault, same for Light.
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Its pretty much just a sense of morals. However, they DO have the rules in their heads one way or another, whether they are forced to abide by them or not. They KNOW the rules, in any case. If Light himself mentions them, then they are quite applicable.
Saying the rules of robotics apply to classic series bots is as incorrect as saying humans are bound by Asimov's three laws.
Despite what Light says in X1 the laws don't practically apply. If you want "no plotholes" then, possibly, the classic series universe has laws like humans have laws; robots can break them at their own risk, but it is their choice. This is very different than Asimov's laws (which hings on robots having no choice at all). So different that you shouldn't even bring up Asimov in a MM discussion.
Which is why I maintain that Asimov's rules don't practically apply.
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I think you've said that enough, Gauntlet. It's been in like every post of yours in this topic.
Let's not forget how fast Mega Man was shooting Wily when he turned into an alien. Mega Man's racist.
That was a hologram.
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I think you've said that enough, Gauntlet. It's been in like every post of yours in this topic.
Well, lock the thread then.
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Tell me how they dont apply. They dont apply to Megaman, in the same way that they dont to X. However they are still present. Remember, Im not saying that they have them programmed into their heads or any of that shpiel, but that they exist, and the robots know them, even if they dont have them. And even if they dont know them, but the humans do, even then, they exist, Light himself is proof.
For me, it really hinges on the "laws of robotics" Dr. Light refers to in MMX1. If it's the same as Asimov's, well, that's one thing. If Dr. Light found out about the events of the ending of MM7, it would have encouraged him to build Megaman X, in an attempt to avoid any human deaths by robots.
The thing with your statement is that it delves into the territory of "what is canon" that we were discussing before. The actual game, as produced by Japan, does not have the line, it just has Megaman silent, which could mean a number if things. Maybe megaman was calmly listening to wily's pleas, probably thinking to himself what a rotten person Wily is.
the American version added in "Im more than a robot! Die Wily!!" The question is more, is that canon? or should it be dismissed as a localization blunder of them doing, I quote, "the reverse 4kids thing"?
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Dr. Light follows his own rules!
#1. Clean up after my mess.
#2. Help me around the lab.
#3. Defeat evil.
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Dr. Light follows his own rules!
#1. Clean up after my mess.
#2. Help me around the lab.
#3. Defeat evil.
What I mean, is he outright mentions them in the intro to X1. And honestly, Im hearing some say 'if they are the same rules"
Asimov CREATED the Rules of Robotics. And in pretty much any scenario, when someone mentions "The Rules of robotics", its those.
From I Robot, to Bicentennial Man.
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Technically, he only mentions the 1st Law of Robotics, in the X intro. Who's to say whether he is programmed the 2nd or 3rd law into him. I mean, keep in mind that Light is a douche.
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Technically, he only mentions the 1st Law of Robotics, in the X intro. Who's to say whether he is programmed the 2nd or 3rd law into him. I mean, keep in mind that Light is a douche.
I think you missed the memo that said there's no such thing as programmed laws for robots such as Rockman. And especially not for robots such as X.
The rules of robotics have their own unique presence in the series. And your namesake himself implicated the existence of the second law. By their very definition robots are to follow orders.
So different that you shouldn't even bring up Asimov in a MM discussion.
Asimov's three rules/laws of robotics have established a presence beyond fiction; they have become a part of the real world's robotics by infamy and simple common sense in regards to autonomous robots.
I think you still don't understand what I meant with "they apply, but not in the way Asimov uses them"...
Asimov's original concept of hardwired commands is not the way his rules have found their way in reality. In reality they exist simply as guidelines for the construction of autonomous robots; it's afterall perfectly logical not to create disobedient, homocidal, suicidal robots.
Rockman uses the those notions, that have their origin in Asimov's fiction, in its own unique way; robots are given a conscience, becoming as similar to humans as possible.
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Tell me how they dont apply. They dont apply to Megaman, in the same way that they dont to X. However they are still present. Remember, Im not saying that they have them programmed into their heads or any of that shpiel, but that they exist, and the robots know them, even if they dont have them.
The key to Asimov's laws are that they are forced on the robots. The robots have no choice to obey them.
I get what people say when you say "those are MM's morals". But MM/Proto/Bass is not FORCED to follow those morals. So they are not Asimov's laws. They may simply be morals, and those morals might not even include all three laws or may include more "laws". Robots may (and probably do) have different morals.
Furthermore, robots that follow Wily can not be shown to follow even a distortion of the three laws. Not only do they disobey him at times, but they also fire on him (Power Fighters / Battles) thereby endangering his life ... certainly causing some harm.
Dr. Light and Wily mention rule of robotics #1, but it's not shown that it's in effect. MM is never FORCED to obey Wily because Wily is a human. Wily's robots are never FORCED to obey him becaus ehe is a human. There's a deference, but there is no forced coersion, not that I can see.
Because there is no actual evidence of the three laws in effect .... then they simply aren't in effect. X1's intro has a plothole. Or, if you wan tto think that robots have laws as humans have laws, go ahead. But they are not Asimov. They key to Asimov is them being hardwired. Forced.
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But they are not Asimov.
Asimov's rules stopped being his ages ago.
Dr. Right is like every modern scientist, somebody that exists in a timeframe after Asimov's rules of robotics became popularized in society and the industry. He simply is the one person that figured out a way to implement the basic principles of those rules in working robots without relying on the antiquated details of last century's fiction.
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Dr. Light is a fictional character and the way he made his ficticious robots =/= the way Asimov imagined his own fictional robots. That is, with forced compliance to the laws.
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I think you've said that enough, Gauntlet. It's been in like every post of yours in this topic.
Because almost every post after his were "But they DO apply to the Megaman series in a way."
That was a hologram.
That he had every reason to believe was Wily.
Dr. Right is like every modern scientist, somebody that exists in a timeframe after Asimov's rules of robotics became popularized in society and the industry. He simply is the one person that figured out a way to implement such notions in working robots without relying on the antiquated notions of last century's fiction.
And we're sure that his timeline and ours are one and the same because..? I don't doubt that there would be safeguards put in place (or just subjecting the robots to the same laws as humans), but honestly, I'm tired of the laws being used in canon discussions like this, even if they and other concepts of Asmimov's are popular. Too many discussions where someone says "BUT THEY CAN'T DO THIS IN CANON BECAUSE BLAH BLAH BLAH MAGIC ASMIMOV'S LAWS ASSPULL."
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They exist regardless. They need to exist. Its the same way that Humans know that certain things are bad. Humans have morals, yes? a sense of right and wrong? a conscience to say "murder is bad! adultery is bad! etc." The laws of robotics in the Megaman universe work in a similar way to that. They exist because Asimov created them, and Robots such as Megaman , live in the future, where the self thinking robots from Asimov's fiction writings are quite real. They therefore know of Asimov's laws, and understand them. They dont have them inertly programmed in, the same way that humans do not have morals inertly implanted into their brains at birth. It is the way that just as a human can disregard the morals of modern society and kill someone, a robot can disregard the rules, and kill a human. Its the whole idea behind the X series. Robots who have broken the first rule of robotics, and not just as a petty crime such as to rob or anything, but because they wish to eradicate humans. those are brought about by things such as glitches and errors, as well as th Sigma virus, which manipulates a reploid into Sigma's bidding.
That he had every reason to believe was Wily
Who was apparently not a human, meaning the laws did not apply there. They do not state that a robot cant harm an alien invader trying to take over the world. Plus do we really know if he knew it was Wily? Megaman never talks in the NES games. only we the player thought he might be an alien. Maybe from a story perspective, Megaman saw through the cheap trick.
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Gauntlet just pointed out that Light (and therefore, his world) are fictional. Their being real here doesn't make them real over there.
And I still don't see why you can't just subject robots to the same rules and laws as humans; yes, some things would have to be adjusted for the former, but there's a whole set of perfectly workable guidelines right there.
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Because there is no actual evidence of the three laws in effect .... then they simply aren't in effect.
The absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.
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And we're sure that his timeline and ours are one and the same because..?
Because the world of Rockman preceding the 21st century is in nearly every way identical to the real world.
Asimov's rules of robotics found their way to real life scientist that envisioned the future of robotics. Asimov's rules from there also found their way to the reality that is Capcom's writers. Of course they're going to apply in some fashion. Not identical to Asimov's fiction, but in a Rockman fashion.
Dr. Light is a fictional character and the way he made his ficticious robots =/= the way Asimov imagined his own fictional robots. That is, with forced compliance to the laws.
So where's the plothole? Right mentions rules of robotics, if they're not necessarily strictly Asimov's rules, then he can sure as hell apply them any way he pleases. And he did. That's how the rules practically apply to Rockman; in their own unique way.
Which is pretty much what I've been saying since the beginning:
The concept that Capcom's writers used originates with Asimov. But they're not being used in the way Asimov used them.
"BUT THEY CAN'T DO THIS IN CANON BECAUSE BLAH BLAH BLAH MAGIC ASMIMOV'S LAWS ASSPULL."
Except, the entire previous page of discussion was about how such a literal use of the laws, DOES NOT APPLY.
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They dont have them inertly programmed in, the same way that humans do not have morals inertly implanted into their brains at birth. It is the way that just as a human can disregard the morals of modern society and kill someone, a robot can disregard the rules, and kill a human.
.....By this statement, are you trying to say that Asimov's laws aren't programmed in, but rather are the definition for a robot's moral code?
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The absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.
Then show some evidence of them practically in effect. Where a robot is FORCED to obey them.
if they're not necessarily strictly Asimov's rules, then he can sure as hell apply them any way he pleases. And he did.
Right. Capcom applied the laws in their own way. A way that is not consistant with how they are presented by Asimov: as laws that MUST be obeyed.
The concept that Capcom's writers used originates with Asimov. But they're not being used in the way Asimov used them.
Which renders the source material inapplicable. You can not use Asimov-story logic in MM. Because it doesn't apply. Similarily, you can't talk about how MM is about to break Asimov's rules or robotics in MM7 because Asimov's rules don't apply to MM as they apply to his own robots. They are simply two seperate stories. They're even less canon than Ruby Spears Megaman in a Megaman conversation.
Capcom may have been inspired by Asimov's rules, but as you say, they have gone their own way. Asimov is no longer in the discussion. Especially in a world where a robot can run down a human who is trying to run away.
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Except, the entire previous page of discussion was about how such a literal use of the laws, DOES NOT APPLY.
"They don't exist in MM's world literally, they're just differently applied" still feels like an Asimov cop-out, since they're his rules in spirit.
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.....By this statement, are you trying to say that Asimov's laws aren't programmed in, but rather are the definition for a robot's moral code?
Well a part of it, yeah. They have the same moral code as a human, but with the laws included as part of that. as a "general idea" or "moral".
Then show some evidence of them practically in effect. Where a robot is FORCED to obey them.
play the X series. If a robot harms a human, they are almost immediately investigated to see if they are maverick. In fact, we dont know what they do to reploids who hurt humans without being maverick. Reploids who do it simply in a criminal way. For all we know, they kill them too.
Right. Capcom applied the laws in their own way. A way that is not consistant with how they are presented by Asimov: as laws that MUST be obeyed.
thats basically what we've been saying for the last page. Capcom applied them- but in their own way. as in, they took creative liberty with them.
Which renders the source material inapplicable. You can not use Asimov-story logic in MM. Because it doesn't apply. Similarily, you can't talk about how MM is about to break Asimov's rules or robotics in MM7 because Asimov's rules don't apply to MM as they apply to his own robots. They are simply two seperate stories.
Capcom may have been inspired by Asimov's rules, but as you say, they have gone their own way. Asimov is no longer in the discussion. Especially in a world where a robot can run down a human who is trying to run away.
Personally, I dont even see the MEGA-man 7 "die wily" bit as canon. it was the localization team thinking it was cool. and they are not the ones who make the story. They are not the writers who planned out the story.
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Do we even need Rock saying anything?
He's got his heater pointed at Wily!
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doesn't mean much. Especially when his sprites in game put an emphasis on him always sticking his buster out. its more of a "stay where you are, wily!" the same way that police point their guns regardless of circumstances.
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Well a part of it, yeah. They have the same moral code as a human, but with the laws included as part of that. as a "general idea" or "moral".
The key part of Asimov's rules is the forced bit. If the rules aren't forced then it doesn't matter if MM's morals have 1, 2, or all 3 laws in them. They are just not meant to be understood as Asimov intended. Moreover, Wily's robots probably lack a few of those laws. So they really aren't laws at all. Not in Asimov fashion.
Relating to morals, even people don't share all the same morals. And you don't have to be a gun-toting extremist either. I don't think all classic MM robots nessasarily have the same morals. Especially not Wily's bunch.
play the X series. If a robot harms a human, they are almost immediately investigated to see if they are maverick. In fact, we dont know what they do to reploids who hurt humans without being maverick. Reploids who do it simply in a criminal way. For all we know, they kill them too.
I am asserting that Asimov's laws are not practically applicable in the classic series. Despite Megaman X.
thats basically what we've been saying for the last page. Capcom applied them- but in their own way. as in, they took creative liberty with them.
Then you will agree that Asimov's laws are not practically applicable in the classic MM series? Since Asimov's laws are clearly different than Capcom's laws. Because, at the least, one is forced while the other is not.
Personally, I dont even see the MEGA-man 7 "die wily" bit as canon. it was the localization team thinking it was cool. and they are not the ones who make the story. They are not the writers who planned out the story.
Yeah, MM is pointing the gun right in Wily's face.
More than that he shoots him down as he tries to escape in MM2 GB. And he always blows up his mechs with Wily himself inside, clearly putting Wily in harm's way (in blatant contradiction to the first law). Some even show Wily all burnt up. The games nessesitate breaking rule #1 of robotics.
Edit: and on 0th law: The plot shows classic robots breaking the second rule of robotics by disobeying a human in a few games. While 0th law *might* allow MM to gun down Wily in cold blood in MM2 GB (although MM7 and X1 don't imply this to be the case), it doesn't allow Protoman to disobey Light. So, not only is 0th law implicitly denied by X1 Light and MM7 Wily it's also not enough to explain everything away. I'm not even sure you can apply 0th law to Wily's bots; which it would have to be if classic series bots follow Asimov's rules. 0th law defence is FAIL.
Edit #2: I must be slow today. Protoman's refusal to be repaired also violates the third law (that robots must protect their own existence) in direct contradiction to law #2 (to obey a human). So, Protoman alone violates all three laws within the MM series ... and he's the prototype unit. You might even say that he violates the 0th law by allowing Wily to live after he beats him in PU and 9.
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Personally, being that since the MM Universe is completely different from ours, due to the super fighting robots and what not, there's a chance that I, Robot was never written, and that Dr. Light is the leading authority on the laws of robotics, as well as the pie eating champion of monsteropolis!
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Yikes, imagine washing out his beard after the championship.
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The key part of Asimov's rules is the forced bit. If the rules aren't forced then it doesn't matter if MM's morals have 1, 2, or all 3 laws in them. They are just not meant to be understood as Asimov intended. Moreover, Wily's robots probably lack a few of those laws. So they really aren't laws at all. Not in Asimov fashion.
Gauntlet, I think you need to go back to page 3 and reread where over and over again I've explained how exactly Right's mentioned rules of robotics exist, originate with Asimov, but are not used in the same way as Asimov used them. In other words "Asimov's laws used in a non Asimov-fashion" is what I've been saying from the very beginning.
But, no, you keep on mindlessly quoting how there's no practical application and how X1 is a plothole amongst plotholes.
I've also many times over mentioned "guidelines", "conscience", "determining right and wrong for themselves" and "worrying". Those are the key factors in the practical application of the rules Right mentioned. In other words; Rockman's rules of robotics, not Asimov's, but certainly derived from his basic idea.
The guidelines (the rules of robotics) that establish simplistic ideals that a robot conscience should abide, the application in a conscience allowing Rockman to feel guilt like a human whenever he breaches his own moral principles programmed into his conscience, the concept of worrying being a unique feature that allows a robot to determine right and wrong for themselves being dangerous exactly because they can by their own accord determine that doing harm to humans is a moral thing to do.
Really, you need to get over the idea of any mention of "Asimov" having "Asimov logic" by default. From the very beginning I've explained this in Rockman logic; they're only Asimov's rules by virtue of him having created the basic concepts that lie at the root of this. Asimov logic is an antiquated fictional device that in the Rockman universe has been replaced with it's own unique variation of the core concepts of a multitude of rules that a robot creator must avide by.
Relating to morals, even people don't share all the same morals. And you don't have to be a gun-toting extremist either. I don't think all classic MM robots nessasarily have the same morals. Especially not Wily's bunch.
I think you missed the memo where Rock alone has a strong sense of justice and Wily's robots are programmed to take over the world.
Nobody said they all have the same conscience.
Also, it's strangely silly to consistently mention Blues. The fact that he is an aberration is a fact he himself attest to. It's also a well known fact that Blues has more freedom than almost any other robot.
Personally, being that since the MM Universe is completely different from ours, due to the super fighting robots and what not, there's a chance that I, Robot was never written, and that Dr. Light is the leading authority on the laws of robotics, as well as the pie eating champion of monsteropolis!
You're talking about the Rockman series in which Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky was written. You're talking about the Rockman series in which the Rockman.exe series was popular software from the 21st century.
Saying I, Robot was never written is quite a stretch.
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You're talking about the Rockman series in which Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky was written. You're talking about the Rockman series in which the Rockman.exe series was popular software from the 21st century.
Saying I, Robot was never written is quite a stretch.
When was Crime & Punishment mentioned?
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Rockman logic; they're only Asimov's rules by virtue of him having created the basic concepts that lie at the root of this. Asimov logic is an antiquated fictional device that in the Rockman universe has been replaced with it's own unique variation of the core concepts of a multitude of rules that a robot creator must avide by.
Then you should be agreeing with me instead of arguing with me.
If Asimov's laws as Asimov saw them implemented (as being forced) don't apply, then you know what? Asimov's laws are not practically applicable in the classic Megaman series.
Which is what I kept on saying to begin with.
The fact that some laws in the MM Universe overlap means nothing if those laws aren't forced on the robots. The fact that robots HAVE to obey the laws is the point of them. That's why it's a big deal if a robot breaks the laws. If they can just do that as a matter of course (as you admit MM and co does), then it's not Asimov in practical effect. It's simply overlap. And it doesn't matter if MM can harm a human; it's no big deal; it doesn't make MM special. Not as far as the laws go.
As for the plothole, fine. I'll correct myself. It might not be a plothole, but it might infer another set of laws within the MM Universe. Laws that are not Asimov's laws. However, if you think it means Asimov's laws (as it seems to imply) then it's a plothole.
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You guys like those animes with long bouts of complicated dialogue, don't you? owob
And just to jump in here, I'm gonna say that unless it's written in some book, or in one of the games itself. It didn't happen. No matter how much you argue.
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When was Crime & Punishment mentioned?
TELOS, Diary: Alouette's Good Day.
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In Osamu Tezuka's original Astro Boy mangas, he wrote up some robot laws that were actual legally enforced laws rather than hard-coded programs of robot conduct. Although robots were expected to follow these laws, they were able to break them of their own accord. Supposedly Tezuka wrote these independently, without in-depth knowledge of Asimov's laws. Naturally enough, one of them was a robot may not harm or kill a human being, but he didn't make use of the second half of the first rule, that a robot could not through inaction allow a human being to be harmed. No forced heroics there. In that singular aspect, Rockman's world seems more like Tezuka's laws of robotics than Asimov's. Though it wasn't Tezuka didn't bother to number his laws with any consistency, so it wasn't really his "first" law. I don't think Rockman subscribes to Tezuka's laws or Asimov's laws, I'm just exploring another potential influence.
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In Osamu Tezuka's original Astro Boy mangas, he wrote up some robot laws that were actual legally enforced laws rather than hard-coded programs of robot conduct. Although robots were expected to follow these laws, they were able to break them of their own accord. Supposedly Tezuka wrote these independently, without in-depth knowledge of Asimov's laws. Naturally enough, one of them was a robot may not harm or kill a human being, but he didn't make use of the second half of the first rule, that a robot could not through inaction allow a human being to be harmed. No forced heroics there. In that singular aspect, Rockman's world seems more like Tezuka's laws of robotics than Asimov's. Though it wasn't Tezuka didn't bother to number his laws with any consistency, so it wasn't really his "first" law. I don't think Rockman subscribes to Tezuka's laws or Asimov's laws, I'm just exploring another potential influence.
Hmmm, very interesting points here.
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Marsmallow Man, I've been reading the Pluto manga recently which is a more serious reinterpretation of Tezuka's Astro Boy series, and it's brought me much to a similar way of thinking, that perhaps robots are required by legal means, rather than by programming, to obey certain robotic laws. Though Asimov would be an interesting angle to view the series, through it's looking more like Megaman applies the Tezuka robot laws, rather than the Asimov laws.
Though this too brings up the question of why Wily brought the point up at all if he knew Megaman could and would harm him, unless he was pointing out that it would make Megaman a criminal. Though it could be that Megaman himself has the law hardwired into him, while others don't. Regardless of taking the American slow speech, or the Japanese just raising the buster, both seem to indicate a powerful internal struggle.
I thought it carried over well to Megaman 8 where this struggle seems to have become ingrained in Megaman's mind and made him a target for Evil Energy. The whole end sequence of MM7 shows something is really weighing on him. Now Megaman has been online for much longer than most robots, so it's entirely possible that he's developed a sense of free will he wasn't originally programmed with, just the same as Protoman.
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Though this too brings up the question of why Wily brought the point up at all if he knew Megaman could and would harm him, unless he was pointing out that it would make Megaman a criminal. Though it could be that Megaman himself has the law hardwired into him, while others don't. Regardless of taking the American slow speech, or the Japanese just raising the buster, both seem to indicate a powerful internal struggle.
It's more of guilt and what is truly right and wrong, actually. Rock raised his weapon against a defenseless human, humans who have their place as the creators of robots. Is it truly right for Rock to do so, even if this one human has caused countless tragedies? Rock being a hero, designed with a strong sense of justice, can not quickly come up with the answer to this question but there's a feeling of guilt that overcomes him as he hesitates.
Naturally, there will be legal consequences of Rock's actions, but this is Wily, would the law really be that harsh to him?
In a similar case, in the Power Battle, Wily brought up that Rock was as bad as him for destroying countless robots. Rock felt quite guilty and couldn't come up with an answer of his own; he needed Dr. Right and his friends to help him set his conscience straight.
Astroboy
As Tezuka didn't label his rules in a numerical order, whereas Right on the other hand, referred to something that was discribed as "the first rule of robotics". X1 certainly appears to literally quote the simplified form of Asimov's first law. Are both not somehow involved?
In regards to which rules Rockman follows, I think it's a bit of a lot of things actually. Rockman certainly takes inspiration from a lot of other series. AstroBoy being a dominant example as it has the same charming atmosphere as the classic series...
In regards to the original Astroboy, doing some googling to confirm that, I found this:
http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002winter/tezuka.shtml
Underpinning the Astro Boy stories is the "robot law," which states that the two main rules are "robots exists to make people happy" and "robots shall not injure or kill humans."
"Robots exists to make people happy"
"Robots shall not injure or kill humans."
Using the type of numeric ordering that Asimov used, which of these rules is more important?
Certainly, Rockman bases itself in the way its robots interact on the charm presented by Astroboy. But as the series progressed, and the X-series came about. The X-series being considerably less light-hearted, inspiration from other more serious series finds its way into the continuity. Not to mention the setting of Rockman and RockmanX being dominantly set in America instead of Japan. One would be hard pressed to discount Asimov influencing the Rockman series. When it comes to all that; Tezuka's "must make people happy" concept certainly isn't going to cut it in the world of the X-series, the fact that robots can not harm humans becomes much more important than making people happy, and more serious rules then those are seemingly needed.
The last few pages of discussion here seem to have mostly been born from a misunderstanding of the term "Asimov's" being the whole "forced" aspect or simply the three basic concepts that each law exhibits.
In terms of just the written description, the Asimov's rules of robotics are in their simplified form:
-Robots must not harm humans.
-Robots must follow orders.
-Robots must not harm themselves.
Let's presume you simply heard these three concepts, but also let us presume you are unaware of these rules being hardwired into and forced onto robots; these are concepts that appear to be very much common sense for robotics to follow. But, you want to make a series like Astroboy, that has this magnificent freedom and charm in its robots. How are you to make your robots follow the above three basic principles without making your robots into emotionless automatons?
I don't think it can be denied that at least 2 of those core principles have been hinted at or even explicitly mentioned in the Rockman series. Right clearly mentions the first. And Blues hints at the existence of the second. Robots are not to harm humans, and robots should follow orders.
The third might not be hinted at, but I don't think it's something the Rockman series can easily violate. Afterall,. the intended charm of the series in general doesn't even allow such a heavy concept as robots deliberately committing suicide or causing harm to themselves, outside of robot heroics and such. Asimov covered such heroics by adding a disclaimer to each subsequent law that says "unless it contradicts the previous laws".
Rockman, which does not follow the principle of "forcing" these basic rules, naturally does not have any clear hierarchy in the rules like Asimov used, following Tezuka more; Rockman surely can decide to protect himself regardless of human order. After all, if he couldn't, he would simply be one of Asimov's mindless automatons instead of Tezuka's lighthearted robots.
Rockman seems to deal with these concepts by giving them a conscience. The conscience Rock was given, however, deals with many more complex matters than simply the three core concepts Asimov wrote down. Tezuka's "robots are to make people happy" concept certainly being one thing that's part of that conscience as well, in order to make him cover all aspects of right and wrong. After all, it was the kindhearted Dr. Thomas Right, who wrote his brain.
Put yourself in the position of Dr. Right. Certainly, from his point of view, robots are are to do good, robots are to follow these concepts with equal value depending on the situation at hand. Robots are to always do good and are not to make such unfair biased choices as putting humans ahead of robots. In order to make a utopia in which humans and robots can live together, robots are to be allowed to be equal to humans, but at the same time do good without a doubt. In his ideal of robots and humans, robots are exactly like humans but robots and humans are not in conflict, there is peace, tranquility and happiness. Every one is good, robots and humans alike.
Behind Dr. Right's ideals, however, is the whole scientific community. Which is certainly a much harsher world than the one of Dr. Right's ideal vision. Such notions as robots making people happy and robots being happy themselves, are of no concern to them. That robots are unable to harm humans is something that is of far greater importance to these people than the naive concept of human and robot "happiness". As long as Thomas Right makes reliable robots, they are satisfied. As long as they obey the "absolute" requirement that a robot can not harm a human, they are satisfied.
To the scientific community, to the world, the ideas of Dr. Thomas Right to place variable worth on such absolutely requirements as the inability to harm a human, is dangerous. Very very dangerous. Dr. Right, has always been on the border of the conflicting ideas of "making robots more like humans" and "making them the human's tools".
Regardless of Dr. Right's ideal, he himself realizes this as well. With RockmanX, "worrying", he's stepped over the boundary, he created something that is undeniable dangerous, something that is entirely to be feared. Something the world is not yet ready to accept.
No matter how it pains Dr. Right, he has to seal RockmanX away until the world has become more mature. Until the day arrives that humanity is ready to accept him. After all, for all the dangers X provides, for all he is feared. X embodies all of Dr. Right's ideals, and as his heart clearly tells him; RockmanX is the world's hope. RockmanX is his personal hope.
Returning to Tezuka and Asimov. I think somehow the inevitable conflict between the cold hard world of Asimov's robots, compared to the lighthearted and charming world of Tezuka's robot, is a core concept that lies at the root of the classic to X-series transition. After all, the difference between the Tezuka and Asimov approaches more than accurately describes the transition from the classic series to the darker and grittier X-series.
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TELOS, Diary: Alouette's Good Day.
Oh, that got translated?
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Astroboy's logic works for the classic MM series and it's interesting to know. Especially since Astro is a MM influence.
The wording implies an Asimov influence, but they just might have either consiously or subconciously channelled Astroboy.
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Good reply ZanWell Inafune is an admitted Tezuka fan so I'm pretty sure the Tezuka connection is intentional.
A good argument against hardwired laws would be seen in Protoman ignoring laws 2 and 3, Bass blatantly ignoring law 2 to the point of outright defying his creator. Though it could be argued that his core purpose overrides all other orders, and that being to defeat Megaman. Just as in Asimov's laws a robot's core purpose trumps all other orders received after programming. Of course in later Asimov works it's said that after the initial paranoia about robots died down, that the second law was actually made weaker than the third, so that robots couldn't be ordered to commit suicide, as they were extremely expensive, and it was previously far too easy to get one to destroy its self for just about anyone. Imagine if someone could just jump in your car and crash it into a tree. Much the same.
Clearly robots in the MM series won't follow just any order, but do follow a purpose that could be categorized under the second law. Protoman seems to be the only one who could be said to totally ignore the second law entirely. Megaman's is to fight for justice, Bass to defeat Megaman, and both will ignore other orders to do so. Though Protoman as a prototype might not have been given a purpose, thus has no second law.
King brings up an interesting idea, that he's the first robot (far before Sigma) to outright defy humanity in general and thus ignore the first law to some degree. He defies humanity, his creator, and even self preservation, breaking all three laws in the course of one game.
You know, in the course of this discussion I think I've done a total 180 on my opinion of Asimov "hardwired" laws vs Tezuka "legal" laws.
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Oh, that got translated?
Nope, because of its length, people haven't really tried to translate it sentence by sentence. I've been told the basic gist of it, though.
Allouette's basically on a quest to find names for the Baby Elves. She talks to everyone around the base about it. -Andrew talks about his past as a teacher, and the differences between humans and Repliroids. Repliroid children are apparently much better in school than human children, but Repliroids unlike humans have notable issues with things like singing; they would only repeat the song like a record player.
-Rouge and Joan bring up nerdy facts from centuries ago. They tried naming the Baby Elves after popular 21th century software, in particular Rockman.exe3 and 4's subtitles. Somewhere along the line Crime and Punishment is mentioned too. -Zero is being mean as usual, and Ciel saves the day by coming up with their known names, derived from the French words for "to pray" and "to create".
Astroboy's logic works for the classic MM series and it's interesting to know. Especially since Astro is a MM influence.
The wording implies an Asimov influence, but they just might have either consiously or subconciously channelled Astroboy.
For the classic series, Atom is certainly the biggest inspiration. The X-series is a bit different from classic, though. But classic does inevitably lead into the X-series. There's certainly quite a lot of other influences here.
Clearly robots in the MM series won't follow just any order, but do follow a purpose that could be categorized under the second law.
I think instead of thinking about the numbered humanoid robots all the time, we should extent our thoughts a bit to the less intelligent robots. The met for instance. We know it's purpose. So, how does its AI work?
King brings up an interesting idea, that he's the first robot (far before Sigma) to outright defy humanity in general and thus ignore the first law to some degree. He defies humanity, his creator, and even self preservation, breaking all three laws in the course of one game.
I think this is mostly the way Wily (and Right as well) programs his robots. Views of right and wrong and such. But not just that, the robot's personality is also a factor. And maybe as you say, "core purpose" is also an important one.
All in all, sometimes their own creators can't quite predict what will happen.
King is certainly a special case in that every aspect of his being was designed to be "the King of Robots". He can only be who he is, and follow his reason for being. Even if it defies his own creator, he must follow his own feelings about the complicated affairs Rock and Forte made him realize.
You know, in the course of this discussion I think I've done a total 180 on my opinion of Asimov "hardwired" laws vs Tezuka "legal" laws.
As a result of your previous post, I started reading Pluto myself. Quite an interesting read.
I've also taken the time yesterday to watch the American produced Astroboy movie. Also worth a watch, especially to people that are fan of both Astroboy and MegaMan. It was really quite a homage to the previous versions of Astroboy.
In both stories, things like Robot Laws are occasionally mentioned. The Astroboy movie unexpectedly felt like it had a more American flair in its mention of it, like they were quoting Asimov. In one instance a robot tried to kill a human: "The robot laws, they've been in place for ## years!", to which the robot replies "I'm old school!" They constantly make it sound like newer robots are incapable of such a feat. Despite this, the robots are all lighthearted like in the original Astroboy.
Pluto on the other hand. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. But I think that's the whole point of the story in many ways, delving into the humanity of these robots and the unfolding mystery regarding Pluto. It seems that the robot laws are legal laws by virtue of Gesicht's investigation into it as a police officer, but at the same time, there's a strong impression that perfectly functioning robots can't kill a human; only malfunctioning robots can. The only exception being the incident of 8 years ago, in which no malfunction was found... Even in the 39th Central Asian conflict, the world's strongest robots could only harm other robots...
As for the original Astroboy. I admit that I haven't had too much exposure with it. I watched the first episode of the 1960s version, 3 episodes of the 1980s version, quite a few of the 2004 one, and played Omega Factor to completion. I don't recall too much of the Robot Laws being mentioned yet.
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The 1980 Astro Boy series was closest to Tezuka's original manga, and early on makes reference to a "Robot bill of rights," however It doesn't go very deep into robot law either. The source prior to Pluto to make the most reference to robot law would be the original manga, which Dark Horse has been releasing lately, however the chronological order is rather scattered in the Dark Horse release leading it to read more like a "Best of" but it's still worth picking up. The old manga is very raw, but there's a lot of hidden depth to it, that I think is worth examining.
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For the classic series, Atom is certainly the biggest inspiration. The X-series is a bit different from classic, though. But classic does inevitably lead into the X-series. There's certainly quite a lot of other influences here.
Yeah, but this conversation is classic Megaman robots VS the rules of robotics. Astroboy is a good point. It seems closer to the intentions of Capcom for the classic series.
I mean, obviously the laws couldn't be exactly the same. But they just might have intended their robots to work like Astroboy's. The laws themselves wouldn't have to be exactly the same for this intention to work.
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The X-series is in the same universe as the classic series, one is the future of the other. As a a result, both series are undeniably connected and influence each other.
The rules of robotics were mentioned in the X-series in regards to the classic series timeframe, do not forget that. In the presented setting, there is fear of robots, there is unwillingness to advance closer to humans. Dr. Right's overly idealistic ideals stands in sharp opposition to the cold harsh reality that exists underneath.
No matter how classic tries to channel the lighthearted atmosphere of Tetsuwan Atom, you mustn't forget what classic will eventually become.
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I don't see that as precluding the classic series robots working like Astroboy's robots, though.
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Nobody ever said that, though.
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Then ... why are you disagreeing with me when I saying Astroboy is a good point?
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To emphasize the importance of what I said two walls of text ago; the conflict between the lighthearted approach of Tetsuwan Atom's robots and the emotionless cold approach of Asimov's laws stands at the root of the classic to X transition. In that transition there is simply a strong feeling in the robotic community that robotics can not progress in the way of Atom, but rather in a more sterile and predictable fashion. Further advancements to make robots more human are shunned.
Though this does not seem to have happened yet in the classic series, it is the unfortunate future of the classic series resulting from the fear brought by the Dr. Wily incidents. The basis for that change already exists underneath the lighthearted Atom based classic series. For instance, look at R9's expiration date law. Why are free willed individuals so willing to let themselves get scrapped?
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While it's true that classic leads to X, I just don't see that as entirely relevant to the point at hand.
MM9 is more relevant to the point. I don't know why those robots would do that. You might be right; that it's a foreshadowing to X. Are you using it as a proof that the second law exists as Asimov envisioned? Or just that the theme becoems darker as time goes on?
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Maybe a bit of both. :P
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It actually is a bit of both. Robot free will is at odds with a bias toward human obedience. In a way, this certainly confirms each of the Asimov laws as having some value within the robots' mindset. After all, these robots wish to die when the humans tell them to and these robots wish to live solely to be useful to humans. There is something that tells them to behave in this manner that prefers human life over robotic life.
Whilst I can't speak for the original Tetsuwan Atom, such a concept is true in the serious setting of Pluto. Robot Law, section 13... "No robot will harm or kill a human." Dr. Ochanomizu explained that the Robot Laws are not simply a legal law, it is also true that all robots are programmed with safeguards to ensure they operate within the law. Robots murdering humans is an incredibly rare occurrence, and it is a common place belief that for a robot to commit such an act, it must be defected.
Certainly, in Rockman as well, every action is taken to ensure the reliability of robots in relation to the rules of robotics. Even with the factor of free will; the law must be obeyed.
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The classic robots might be programmed with deference to laws (as in "law and order"), but it really seems to be Astroboy inclined in the way it seems to work. Asimov's influence seems limited to quoting his first law. But his influence is there, so it'd be right to say it's sort of a mix.
But MUCH more Astroboy than Asimov. Astroboy had robots being thrown away as well. Although I have to admit that I'n no expert in Astroboy.
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If Im right, I think what Zan is trying to say, is that the classic series is Astro boy laws based, but must eventually evolve into Asimov type laws for the X series.
or something to that regard.
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IS that what he's trying to say?
If so, I don't think I agree with that statement. But I don't see any reason in arguing it.
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What I said in regards to the classic to X transition is that because of the Dr. Wily incidents there are dominant feelings from the robotic community and the world itself that direct fear toward the notion of human-like machines. Instead of being mankind's friends, they have become mankind's enemies and therefor a robot such as X, who represents the final step in robot evolution, becomes something to be feared.
In the late 21st century, and early 22nd century, we see a considerable decline in human-like robots as a result of this. We also see the humans themselves starting to use robots as mere tools, not just for industrialization, but for war. The dominant form of robots has become the "Mechaniroids".
In the time period in which X was finally uncovered, the aforementioned strong feelings of fear have finally been put to rest by humanity. The discovery of X to all other robots became something simply incomparable. The creation of the Repliroids stands in sharp contrast with the simplistic Mechaniroids which the people are most familiar with.
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You just might be right, I suppose. Although we recieve preacious little information about what the world around MM thinks, you might be right in your supposition.
Um ... I don't think that has any bearing on the Astroboy point. I think bringing up Astroboy was valid to the discussion and, probably, on the right track in terms of classic series robots and any "robot laws" that exist.
But the lighthearted classic series does become the X series, you're right about that.
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Nope, because of its length, people haven't really tried to translate it sentence by sentence. I've been told the basic gist of it, though.
Allouette's basically on a quest to find names for the Baby Elves. She talks to everyone around the base about it. -Andrew talks about his past as a teacher, and the differences between humans and Repliroids. Repliroid children are apparently much better in school than human children, but Repliroids unlike humans have notable issues with things like singing; they would only repeat the song like a record player.
That actually sounds really interesting. I wish they'd touch upon such things more. And translate them... makes the MM world seem more believable.
-Rouge and Joan bring up nerdy facts from centuries ago. They tried naming the Baby Elves after popular 21th century software, in particular Rockman.exe3 and 4's subtitles. Somewhere along the line Crime and Punishment is mentioned too.
20XX software? Red Sun/Blue Moon?
-Zero is being mean as usual, and Ciel saves the day by coming up with their known names, derived from the French words for "to pray" and "to create".
Cold or intentionally mean?
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20XX software? Red Sun/Blue Moon?
Red Sun/Blue Moon, as the Baby Elf names, but also the EXE3 version names. I believe they also implicated a certain company that made the games. They're saying Capcom made and released Rockman.exe games in the 21st century.
Cold or intentionally mean?
Zero being Zero.
I think bringing up Astroboy was valid to the discussion and, probably, on the right track in terms of classic series robots and any "robot laws" that exist.
Thing is, even in Astroboy, there is a certain aspect of their programming that forces upon them such concepts as the rules of robotics.
To reiterate the example from Pluto, robot law section 13, a robot must not harm or kill a human; robots are programmed to ensure they follow the law. Only a defect is believed to have the ability to break the law.
To link that to the 1980 Astroboy; it's clearly something special when a robot is equipped with "Heart" or the "Omega Factor". Atlas, who is equipped with the Omega Factor, being the supposed one robot that could break the law.
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Thing is, even in Astroboy, there is a certain aspect of their programminh that forces upon them such concepts as the rules of robotics.
To reiterate the example from Pluto, robot law section 13, a robot must not harm or kill a human; robots are programmed to ensure they follow the law. Only a defect is believed to have the ability to break the law.
To link that to the 1980 Astroboy; it's clearly something special when a robot is equipped with "Heart" or the "Omega Factor". Atlas, who is equipped with the Omega Factor, being the supposed one robot that could break the law.
Someone more in tune with Astroboy can debate with you on exactly how relevant it is within the classic series MM. The details on that are besides the point. Still, maybe Marshmellow can give his own thoughts on it.
However, with my familiarity with Astroboy, Asimov, and MM, I can say that Astroboy is definately the closest to classic series MM while Asimov is a far cry. Beyond that, I'm not willing to venture.
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Wily,Jimminy.....i wish i COULD Kill him in my fangame*
*(Technally,Wily is reaveled in The JeffreyFUTURE Series to be Dead*)
*See Megaman Timeline on MMKB.
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Hmm i got a random question in my head i just felt like asking.
Would it be considered "okay" if like a storyline for a megaman romhack actually would involve killing wily ? i mean literally for reals ... no exceptions. Just a one-time-only deal that megaman would do even though it obviously would break the rules. So that wily truly would not be able to cause anymore harm/damage/destruction/etc ever again for all time.
Or would that be "BAD" storyline ??
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It wouldn't fit with the rest, but whether it would be bad depends entirely on the execution (DO HO HO).
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I think that'd be a bit tasteless and disrespectful toward the nature of the classic series.
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Ah i see okay that'd make sense then zan.
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Tezuka had something around 10 or more laws (I think he rewrote a few of them in the course of the stories) by the end of Astro Boy, I saw a web site somewhere that listed them all in Japanese, I'll track it down later. I remember that Wily broke quite a few of them throughout the classic series.
In Tezuka's world, robots are often considered morally superior to humans by their very nature. That most robots will take abuses from humans shows their higher capacity for tolerance and faith that the good nature of the human heart eventually prevails. However, all they need it so be convinced, through personal experience or logic, of the intolerable evils of mankind to turn themselves on humanity. The old manga is full of such cases of robots that do just that, some human was awful or violent and so the robot realizes their unworthiness to be assisted. Robots with kokoro (heart or emotions) become increasingly common throughout the stories, and these robots need only to be pushed to learn hatred. Even the Pluto manga, which certainly took its own liberties with many aspects of Tezuka's vision, demonstrated consistently that there was essentially no malfunction or defect in any of the (spoilers?) 5 or so robots that put humans to death throughout that manga. It remained a matter of the robots' own will, own sense of righteousness, own feelings and desires.
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God bless osamu tezuka... eventually willy is a human and he's an old man so hes going to die soon...maybe...rockman doesnt have to kill him... i think