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Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => ZX => Topic started by: Flame on November 22, 2009, 12:55:42 AM

Title: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 22, 2009, 12:55:42 AM
Since we dont seem to have a thread bout this, I figured we might as well, since there are so many.
ZX and ZXA both have quite a big amount of cameos from Classic all the way to the Zero series, so il just leave this list here. Anyone fins more, ill add em'.

In Mega Man ZX:

1. Images and/or cutscene images of Ciel, Zero, and the resistance can be found in Prairie's room, along with Allouette's old clothes. Her room is also filled with cyber elf plushies.

2. Prairie's stuffed animal is the same one that she (Allouette) has had since Zero 1.

3. Hyleg Ourobuckle from Mega Man Zero 2 is sticking slightly out of a tree in Area A-2 (Forest) in the Giga Aspis boss fight section. Apparently, some of the snake platform is embedded in the trees as well.

4. A Pantheon is looming out of the underground area's background in Area C-1 (City).

5. An E-Tank is just sitting on a crate in the same background. Coincidentally, in the game, you can purchase E tanks from Cedre in the engine room, and obtain W cans by hiting the doll in Prairies room.

6. The Crane Game section at the Amusement Park (Area H-2) has stuffed dolls of various Cyber Elves, 4 guardians, a few bosses such as the pantheon core as well as Mayl and viruses from the Battle Network series. Characters can be seen as the cranes pick them out of the piles, in the piles themselves, and even in the background.

7. The Rush Roadster and Red Striker cars from Battle & Chase are in the city. Also interesting to note is the fact that the two boys who own the cars are wearing clothes astoundingly similar to Nintendo's Mario and Luigi. Is this a possible Mario Kart reference as well?

8. Aztec Falcon is apparently in the background along with the carousel in Area H.

9. The vending machines scattered throughout the city are designed like big E-Tanks.

10. Monitors in several areas of the city show the words "News Capcom." Capcom, of course, is obviously the gaming company, and could possibly be a reference to the "Capcom Times" newspaper from Mega Man 6 and 7.

11. Childre Inarabita from Mega Man Zero 3 hanging upside down in Area F-3 (Lake).

12. Area D (Highway) is astoundingly similar to the highway intro stage in X1, right down to the crumbling platforms and the fly helicopters braking the highway as they fall (Beecopters in X1). The music that plays is also a re arrange of the intro highway music.

13. The core of the Guardian Base is the same energy design that Ciel was working on in the Zero series.

14. The operators in the Guardian Base's command room look similar to the operators in the Zero series.

15. The theme that plays when Model W awakens is a re arranged version of "Fate" the theme of Dr. Weil. In fact, the beggining part loops for the Boss entrances, so as to not continue onto the melody itself. "Babel Tower" is also a re arrange of Fate.

16. In the city area, you can pick up bread from a lady's who's grandfather learned how to bake bread from an old Reploid (Old man Andrew from the MMZ series)

17. the reporter on the roof of the building in the city area says he want to be like the "famous journalist from the wars" which is a reference to Neige from Zero 4, although in the localization, the reporter is referred to as a "He" whereas in the Japanese version, im not sure, but I think they dont specify gender.

18. Vent resembles Megaman triger from the Legends series. this could be simply coincidence, but there are also instances of the stitch mouths and the single red eye design appearing on places such as Model W cores, and on Serpents Final form. So it can be said it was possibly done to show that the Legends series is indeed the future of the Megaman timeline, and not a separate universe.

19. Fleuve bears a striking resemblance to Perroquiet from the Zero series.

20. Omega Zero from Zero 3 can be found and fought in area N-1 following area M. The black hole background also has a flickering transparent image of the room Omega was originally fought in. (abandoned Lab with Fusion Omega debris) After defeating him, you can find a "Mysterious Stone" biometal, which upon beating the game, Fleuve allows you to use Model Ox, whose appearance is an exact duplicate of Omega Zero, and uses Ground pound moves from the X series. ( The ones from X2, X4, and X6).

21. By putting either Zero 3 or 4 in te GBA slot in the DS, you can fight their bosses in area N, as an alternate way of earning model Ox.

22. In the above mentioned rematches, for the Z3 bosses, (the Eight Gentle Judges,) while using HX you can see their humanoid forms on the Livemetal screen.

23. Each LM combo has a charge shot similar to an attack in X1, HX charge + ^ is Storm Tornado, FX has charged Fire Wave, LX has charged shotgun Ice and PX charge + ^ has charged Rolling Shield.

24. In Flammole's Area, as a mid boss, you have to fight the Lavadevil, which is an obvious Devil series reference (1, 3, X5, Z1, Z2 etc.)

25. The Data servers in Protectos' boss room are the same kind that Ganesheriff's body was made of in Zero 1.

Mega Man ZX Advent:

1. Wire Sponge from Mega Man X2 can be partially seen in the background near the bottom of the Tower of Verdure. Rospark, the boss of this area, also has a similar move set to Wire Sponge.

2. In the Floating Ruins area, there is a side quest in which you find "artifacts." The artifacts are named Light Bulb, Pinwheel, L Tank, and Balancer.

The Light Bulb is shaped like the energy recovery item from Mega Man 1.

The Pinwheel is the Yashichi item found in many Capcom games. It notably appeared in Mega Man 1, in which it was only found in the final level and restored all life and weapon energy once obtained.

The Balancer is the Energy Balancer found in every Classic Series Mega Man game since Mega Man 6. It's function is to automatically refill the weapon with the least amount of energy if Mega Man obtains Weapon Energy while not using a special weapon. This feature has been automatic for the X and ZX series, which is referenced by girl you give the Balancer to.

The L Tank is essentially an upgraded E Tank from Mega Man 5. Also, you can purchase E tanks from Nick.

3. The Utoboros from Launch Octopus's stage in Mega Man X1 can be found in the Oil Field (which is hinted to be the same area dried-out over the centuries). This Mechaniloid is later added to the display shelf at the Hunter complex.

4. The Model Train is the train from Zero 2 (and apparently Zero 1).

5. The Comic Book Secret Disk references Rockman & Forte 2: Challenger from the Future.

6. The Model a (ancient) mini game is done in the style of the NES Mega Man games. Spoiler: [size=20]The final fight with Albert is in a ship remarkably similar to Dr. Wily's UFO from Mega Man 4 and up. When defeated, Albert does Wily's "bow for forgiveness."[/size]

7. The "Legendary Hero" Secret Disk shows a picture of Mega Man from the notorious United States box art of Mega Man 1. The description humorously mocks this art style, explaining that "These Legendary Heroes look more like coalminers in colorful outfits."

8. Queenbee has a move list similar to every other bee-themed Mega Man boss, such as Blast Hornet and Hornet Man. Since Advent came out before Mega Man 9, it is possible that Queenbee is alluding directly to Blast Hornet.

9. Model Z seems to self sacrifice himself. It is possible that this is alluding to the several times Zero has risked himself for the sake of others, such as X1 and 5.

10. Model A is obviously based on Axl, even though the "A" in question stands for "Albert."

11. Buckfire might be a vague Flame Stag reference, as they are both fire-deer bosses.

13. The flying beetles in the Legion HQ area are remarkably similar to the flying beetles in X2, which could be ridden on to get to higher places.

14. The Crushpactor in the Quarry area functions like the bulldozing enemies in Armored Armadillo's stage in X1.

15. Bifrost may be a vague reference to Wheel Gator from X2, as he is reptilian and has a buzz-saw wheel that operates similarly to Wheel Gator's weapon.

16. The Sage Trinity are named after the three doctors of the Classic Series. Thomas Light, Mikhail Cossack, and Albert Wily. Albert's actions mirror his namesake, as Albert is the mastermind behind the "Game of Destiny."

17. In the Legion area, there are several platforms which can be ridden and can damage enemies. These look similar to the carts in Armored Armadillo's stage and function in the same way.

18. The Mechanical Tree Miniboss in the Waterfall Ruins is similar to Wood Man from Megaman 2. It uses leaf attacks similar to him.

19. After defeating Atlas, you have to smash a wall made of what the raider describes as being Ceratanium,  The the same material used in Megaman Zero 4 to make chips.

20. During the obtain the plant for the room mini mission, one of the plants you can choose is the snip snip plant from Z4.

21. The secret model obtained by collecting all the medals, Model @, is based on the NES Megaman 8 bit sprite design, and like the original 3 games, cannot fire charge shots, and slides instead of dashes.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Dr. Wily II on November 26, 2009, 04:23:39 PM
You forgot the Cyberelf plushies all over Prairies's room, and also, the W-Can.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 26, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
oops.
W can is in number 5.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Saber on November 26, 2009, 05:30:07 PM
2. Prairie's stuffed animal is the same one that she (Allouette) has had since Zero 2.

She already had it back in ZERO1.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Dr. Wily II on November 26, 2009, 05:52:09 PM
W can is in number 5.
Oops... Somehow missed that. XD
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Blackhook on November 26, 2009, 06:01:22 PM
You forgot the most obvious cameo...Omega from Z3  >0<
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Elpis TK31 on November 26, 2009, 06:19:59 PM
15. During the obtain the plant for the room mini mission, one of the plants you can choose is the snip snip plant from Z4.
16. The theme that plays when Model W awakens is a re arranged version of "Fate" the theme of Dr. Weil. In fact, the beggining part loops for the Boss entrances, so as to not continue onto the melody itself.

19. After defeating Atlas, you have to smash a wall made of what the raider describes as being Ceratanium,  The the same material used in Megaman Zero 4 to make chips.
[/quote]

15 is not from ZX but from ZXA >.>
16 fate remix is so obvious, like "Babel Tower" wich is also a remix of Fate.
19 Ceramical Titan, Hardman was made of it (see RM&F)

those "sea serpents" are called Utoboros, wich is one letter away from the final area of ZXA.

-Elpis
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 26, 2009, 07:14:21 PM
though its said differently, so I didnt know. Is it actually the same thing?

Also, oops, and I didnt notice that.

Posted on: November 26, 2009, 01:06:49 PM
Added two more to ZX1
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Elpis TK31 on November 27, 2009, 05:34:57 PM
Yes, Utoboros move in a pattern towards their own ass, wich makes sense, since they too are a reference to the mythological Ouroboros/Uroboros.

Some other nice cameo info:
-ZX's rematch with the Z3 bosses, with HX can see their humanoid forms on the Livemetal screen.
-ZX, Each LM combo has a chargeshot similar to an attack in X1, HX has charged Storm Tornado, FX has charged Fire Wave, LX has charged shotgun Ice and PX has charged Rolling Shield.
-ZX, Lavadevil, obvious Devil series reference (1, 3, X5, Z1, Z2)

Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 27, 2009, 05:51:30 PM
added.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 27, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
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19 Ceramical Titan, Hardman was made of it (see RM&F)

"Chitan" is translated as Titanium, not Titan. It's "Ceramical Titanium". Translated as "Ceramic Titanium" for Megaman and Bass, "Ceratanium" in ZERO4, ZX and ZXA.

Ceramical Titanium is not just what Hardman is made of. Rockman's armor is also made of it. In fact, all the Numbers probably are. Which is responsible for their weight. Contrast with the more lightweight "Titanium-X" and "Titanium-Z".
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Elpis TK31 on November 27, 2009, 09:20:47 PM
Oh so that's what it's supposed to be, I always thought Titan sounded wierd, but never looked into it.
Thanks for the clarification ^^
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Akira on November 27, 2009, 10:59:51 PM
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn194/Akira_Corp/XX.jpg)

( Rockman X commercial and  First Vent/Aile video )
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 27, 2009, 11:49:43 PM
I honestly have to wonder if that was intentional, or coincidence.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Satoryu on November 28, 2009, 07:07:24 AM
Yeah, that's gotta be a coincidence. And it's not 100% identical, anyway. X's hand is on the buster, while Model X's is on the arm.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: OmegaZ on November 28, 2009, 08:31:10 AM
And this is relevant, how?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Satoryu on November 28, 2009, 10:18:27 PM
It could be considered a cameo of sorts. More of a reference or throwback, really.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on December 29, 2009, 11:44:45 AM
NECRO UPDATE:
I added to the ZX1 one, Which I honestly should have remembered before. About the Data servers in Protectos' room and that one guy in Z1.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: ZetaForce on January 01, 2010, 09:36:05 PM
Although I want to believe that Model A is Model Axl, I am still partial about it. It's probably because of Albert that I can't really believe it as much as I did before...

Also, that's a lot of references. It's too bad the story for ZX/ZX Advent weren't as strong as X and Zero.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 02, 2010, 01:27:04 AM
Quote
It's too bad the story for ZX/ZX Advent weren't as strong as X and Zero.

You might want to replay these games. I don't know why people keep citing this as the opposite is true; ZX is a much more consistent and well thought out story that does everything right that the previous series did wrong. The X and ZERO-series cannot compare to it.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Kieran on January 02, 2010, 03:21:12 AM
Particularly Zero considering they retconned a bunch of [parasitic bomb] after the second one so they could cram in two more games.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on January 02, 2010, 04:33:36 AM
Except for the fact that Zero 2 was made for the sole purpose of building up to Zero 3, and Zero 4 was the conclusion to Zero 3's remaining problem.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 02, 2010, 02:06:40 PM
Particularly Zero considering they retconned a bunch of [parasitic bomb] after the second one so they could cram in two more games.

That's not really the case at all. The ZERO-series changed throughout the whole series. That's simply its unfortunate position of having to compete with the ongoing X-series; it's story changed in the first game, and everything beyond that is an attempt to bring it back closer to their original vision whilst expanding their world more and more. As such, it is the second game, not anything after, that changed the series.

In my opinion, it's the X-series that's the worst of the three. Having a bunch of totally unrelated conflicts with the same old cast and final boss, whilst jumping about in character and revelation focus.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 02, 2010, 07:05:53 PM
As such, it is the second game, not anything after, that changed the series.
Harpuia, Leviathan, and Fefnir would beg to differ.  More accurately, the second game and not anything after that changed the X-to-Zero series gap.

Although, it was not until MMZOCW that Inticreates threw us a frikkin' bone regarding what the hell they were thinking.  Before that all we had was guesswork.  The fact that Dark Elf's relation to Zero and the Sigma Virus is the full and sole reason Zero had to be sealed before Elf Wars threw pretty much everyone for a loop.  Nowhere in the games themselves is that stated, and even MMZOCW could have done a better job of emphasizing it.  It's a pretty darn key detail, given that half the timeframe between the two series is there simply to justify it.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 02, 2010, 07:55:56 PM
Quote
Harpuia, Leviathan, and Fefnir would beg to differ..

Not like any in-continuity source actually stated they were alive, either. Vile's Incident included.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 05, 2010, 03:38:45 AM
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
Lie by omission, your statement is true only of the text of Vile's Incident, not of Vile's Incident in its entirety.

We've been over this, the illustrations accompanying Vile's Incident, specifically a single piece across pages 2 and 3, indicate that Levi at least is very much alive, as her ankles are visible and unlike Phantom's clearly solid.  Developer interviews around that time frame also stated that the remaining Guardians were alive and merely off-screen during Z4.

It is known fact they were not intended to be dead at Z3's ending until after ZX was under development.  It is senseless to kill three characters in a scenario which a fourth, closest to ground zero (not like that stopped anyone in X5, but still) survived, especially given that the entity credited with retrieving the known survivor was visibly incapacitated at the time of the explosion.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 05, 2010, 03:27:10 PM
Quote
We've been over this, the illustrations accompanying Vile's Incident, specifically a single piece across pages 2 and 3, indicate that Levi at least is very much alive, as her ankles are visible and unlike Phantom's clearly solid.

I meant that I do not consider that picture as any guarantee of their status as dead or alive. Not only does it allow characters such as X and Phantom a previously unseen materialized appearance, it is also complete fanon to exclaim that all of them have to have their feet obscured by special effect. For example, X's effects are clearly far more heavy than Phantom's. Between dead since Ciel was 9, dead since Zero1 and dead since Zero3, why would they all be the same?

Furthermore, your often cited ankles are just one of Leviathan's feet; she is not standing on flat ground. We have no precedence of how X and Phantom would appear in this position. The effects always obscure two feet at the same height with one ring, never two uneven height feet. Thus there are many clear cut rationale behind the lack of effects on Leviathan.

See, even if they were alive in Nakayama's vision whilst drawing. We never had any indication to believe that image would appear any differently even if they were dead. Had they shown that image AFTER they had stated them as dead, we would have all accepted it as their post mortum materialization.

This was a scene in-continuity, but their status was never ever made clear. Inti is very much right about the vagueness of the scene; we are missing its factual context.

Quote
Developer interviews around that time frame also stated that the remaining Guardians were alive and merely off-screen during Z4.

Developer interview was a clear cut; "maybe". Never fact. This is out of continuity. Unless you also believe Ciel's age of perhaps 5, 6 was in-continuity too. Staff guessing is just that, guessing; they rectified it to age 9 as of RZOCW. The same is true of the Guardians and this interview.

Quote
It is senseless to kill three characters in a scenario which a fourth, closest to ground zero survived

The "sense" of the whole set up was never in question. Inti has clearly elaborated on why Zero survived.

The question here is one of "retroactive continuity". As in, does what Into say go against what was previously established fact? I say no, all it goes against is what the fans themselves thought of as fact. The Vile's Incident image is inconclusive due to lack of context. The interview is inconclusive because of staff guessing. Inti simply had not yet established their true fate, neither dead, nor alive were factual. TELOS even indicates the probability of their death, just as much as their survival. That is why it was entirely within Inti's right to determine this later on.

As for what the game presents, that too lacks any real facts. You yourself should know best not to see engine specific explosion as the definite death of a character. Omega could still be standing after Zero's attack, and deliver a Phantom style moment long after the screen fade. If we however had seen the aftermath of our engine-specific explosion and certain sprites would have vanished, then would we have actual facts of their fate in the game.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 06, 2010, 01:18:17 AM
I meant that I do not consider that picture as any guarantee of their status as dead or alive. Not only does it allow characters such as X and Phantom a previously unseen materialized appearance, it is also complete fanon to exclaim that all of them have to have their feet obscured by special effect. For example, X's effects are clearly far more heavy than Phantom's. Between dead since Ciel was 9, dead since Zero1 and dead since Zero3, why would they all be the same?
How often do you see any program life object appearing in the substance world that DOESN'T have some manner of energy effect around it?  The specifics of such may not be an exact science but there's pretty much always something.

I think the difference in saturation of effects between X and Phantom is more a matter of style than timeframe.  MMZ makes it a point of presenting X in an "otherworldly" light, and the visualizations surrounding him have been anything but consistent.  You look at sprite, art, and mugshot, and get three or four completely different looks.

But on the timeframe issue:  ZX.  Giro.  Dead in same game, and discolored from the waist down.

Quote
Developer interview was a clear cut; "maybe". Never fact.
It said "maybe" in regards to what they were doing, not that they "maybe" survived.  Big difference.  There was no intention nor implication of death even after the sequel game was done, and the "general creation team" (a shame there are no specific names attached to this) go on to express their regrets for not including the remaining Guardians in Z4.  They also specifically mention that the reason Zero did not have a final showdown with the Big Four is because they did not want to see the Big Four defeated in Z3.

Barring the clear developer intent established there, on the "Nakayama's mind" issue, I think that they are alive in that image is obvious.  Not only for reasons I described above, which need to be deliberately rationalized away to work otherwise, but if Nakayama thought them dead, he wouldn't have stumbled when asked when that image is supposed to fit.  Aizu's explanation of the Guardians dying in Z3 is a simple matter of exploiting a loophole.  Nakayama's piece was the only thing in their way, so they made it a point to dismiss it.  Textbook definition of retcon.  That simple.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on January 06, 2010, 01:44:14 AM
How about this. At the time, that meant whatever it meant, be it that they were alive or otherwise, but now, they are dead, as they decided to kill them that way for ZX to happen the way they envisioned it.
So, as of then, they officially died in Z3. Retcon or not, thats the way it now is.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 06, 2010, 02:12:28 AM
Well, yeah, nobody's debating that.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on January 06, 2010, 02:18:14 AM
What were you two arguing over again...?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 06, 2010, 02:32:47 AM
Whether the fate of Harpuia, Leviathan, and Fefnir constitutes something that "changed the series".
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 06, 2010, 03:09:00 PM
Quote
How often do you see any program life object appearing in the substance world that DOESN'T have some manner of energy effect around it?  The specifics of such may not be an exact science but there's pretty much always something.

Z1 Passy. SvC Cyber Elves. Furthermore, Phantom has never before been shown to materialize in this manner. If we start demanding that they all need those effects, we're making up whatever we want; there simply is no stated context to explain these effects, nor do we have an example to judge Leviathan's uneven foot positioning by. All that is left is our own assumption of what might seem obvious.

Quote
You look at sprite, art, and mugshot, and get three or four completely different looks.

All of these different forms have had art. Doesn't seem to be much of an inconsistency, rather, something deliberate.

Quote
But on the timeframe issue:  ZX.  Giro.  Dead in same game, and discolored from the waist down.

There's a key difference here, X does not appear in his projected robed form. The Vile's Incident image is not of the same type as Giro's projection. Also, both robed X and Giro were whole, even if static images.

Quote
It said "maybe" in regards to what they were doing, not that they "maybe" survived.

Playing devil's advocate here. Post mortum activities aren't exactly uncommon in this series. It is still our assumption that they are alive.

Quote
Barring the clear developer intent established there

Thing is, developer intent is not in question here. Inti's stance on the Guardians has always been one of circumstance. Can they make use them alive, or dead? As of Z4, there were still ideas floating about for their further use as living characters, which is only logical. Still, in the eventual need to make them dead, the Z3 ending was always made with that loophole in mind, as TELOS Harpuia lampshades. This is exactly what happened with ZX.

What is in question here, is if there is any facts of the continuity that have been altered. Whilst it is true that the creators made art with the idea that they're alive, but the resulting story context is left only to impression, not stated fact. As such, the answer is no, there is nothing to alter. Simply because their status is not confirmed in the continuity, only in out of continuity implications of developer intent.

In a similar but reverse scenario, before ZX there actually is no in-continuity statement of Zero's death in Z4. Thus they could at any given time have still decided to make him survive, even with the most convoluted of methods.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on January 06, 2010, 03:16:56 PM
Cant we simply assume that at the time of making the image, they were still alive in the post Z4 world, but as of the decision made for ZX, they died in Z3 and thus that image no longer has story relevance as alive characters? Shouldnt we simply assume that they are thus dead in that picture, simply because it cannot be otherwise?
(Im probably still understanding the argument wrong, arent I...)
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 07, 2010, 02:28:59 AM
Yes, you are.  Zan is mainly arguing with me about how he defines "in continuity".  In my opinion this is splitting hairs, but what the heck?

Z1 Passy.
Not consistently.  Which begs the question of why Phantom is being differentiated from the others if they're all toast.  The time of death shpiel is just speculation to rationalize it.

Quote
X does not appear in his projected robed form.
He never does in any finished art; the only robed X artwork is concept.  Meanwhile, save mugshots, X's in-game appearances are only as either a golden speck or the robed projection.

Quote
Thing is, developer intent is not in question here.
I disagree wholeheartedly.  If you're saying that the account of their death in Z3 does not change what was established in continuity, then you could just as easily say the same of Elf Wars and Z1's continuity.  Nothing "in continuity" within Z1 is ignored, merely interpreted differently in light of what was revealed in the future.  Saying that Z2 changed the series while ZX did not is a double standard.

Quote
In a similar but reverse scenario, before ZX there actually is no in-continuity statement of Zero's death in Z4.
The difference is that Z4 had no sequel prior to ZX.  From a story-telling standpoint, leaving one's fate uncertain or with false implications for a cliffhanger is quite common.  However even ignoring the Physis art (which I am not content to do), Z3 left no such implications, and Z4 came and went saying nothing on the matter, indicating that no such expansion was needed.  It is therefore established, even if passively, that Z3's ending is to be taken at face value.  But once ZX was developed, that was no longer the case.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 07, 2010, 02:57:20 AM
Quote
I disagree wholeheartedly.  If you're saying that the account of their death in Z3 does not change what was established in continuity, then you could just as easily say the same of Elf Wars and Z1's continuity.  Nothing "in continuity" within Z1 is ignored, merely interpreted differently in light of what was revealed in the future.  Saying that Z2 changed the series while ZX did not is a double standard.

The difference is that Z1-2 is reinterpretation of game facts. Whereas Z4-ZX is reinterpretation of a context questionable image, and developers being unsure in interviews about what the hell is going on. Only the implications of the aforementioned context questionable image can be remotely considered as part of continuity.

The issue I have here, is that you're viewing Z4-ZX as equal to Z1-2 in the scale of retroactive continuity. The Guardians' death is relatively minor compared to what how things changed upon Z2's release.

Quote
Z3 left no such implications

Harpuia:  However the future hidden in the shadows beyond the door may turn out.  Wind drives away the fog, fire shows the road.  Water enriches the body, and shadow reflects oneself...  By the four heavens, we will become a light to guide the world!  Master X..  For humans' sake, we can continue to fight.  Even if it means our lives are exhausted as an offering for justice.

Quote
Not consistently.  Which begs the question of why Phantom is being differentiated from the others if they're all toast.

The others? Just Leviathan's uneven foot. Being entirely serious here, had Nakayama taken that image and 'altered' it to respect their deaths. How would these effects even be portrayed with Leviathan? I just don't see how it can cause the whole ankle and foot to vanish as with Phantom.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on January 07, 2010, 03:14:29 AM
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Harpuia:  However the future hidden in the shadows beyond the door may turn out.  Wind drives away the fog, fire shows the road.  Water enriches the body, and shadow reflects oneself...  By the four heavens, we will become a light to guide the world!  Master X..  For humans' sake, we can continue to fight.  Even if it means our lives are exhausted as an offering for justice.
Didnt he, in game before leaving resistance base, also declare that he would gladly fight even if his body should fall into ruin?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 07, 2010, 03:25:15 AM
Is that not only natural when you've just recovered from having the crap kicked out of you?  Harpuia was shot, whereas Zero landed in the freaking missile.

The difference is that Z1-2 is reinterpretation of game facts. Whereas Z4-ZX is reinterpretation of a context questionable image, and developers being unsure in interviews about what the hell is going on. Only the implications of the aforementioned context questionable image can be remotely considered as part of continuity.
The absence of something from continuity is as much part of continuity as its presence.  In that regard, it's not Z4-ZX but rather Z3-ZX, spanning three games rather than two.  For no reason is anyone's mortality in question during Z3, and Z4's existence says that it needs no further expansion.  That's why it's a retcon.  You're saying that it's not, because in asking whether or not they survived there was no solid answer.  The problem is, there was no reason to ask that question in the first place.

I'm getting a far less unsure vibe from that Q&A than you are, as well.  They state that they passed on a Z3 showdown because they did not want to dispose of the Guardians, and in addition, taking the word "Perhaps" as indicating their possible death only works with the quote out of context, since the previous paragraph stated that despite the Shitennou being Zero's rivals, "there is no way Zero can handle it [Operation Ragnarok] himself."  The Guardians being dead was simply not up for discussion.  

[spoiler=repost, for memory-refreshing and all]===<< Letter Introduction >>=============
I played Rockman Zero 4.  Why weren't the Shitennou there!?
I really like the Shitennou!  No, love the Shitennou!!
It's because the Shitennou are in it that RockZero is so interesting.
Even so they didn't appear this time, but why?

So please allow the four to appear in the next game, I beg you!!
Bring Phanto back to life please!!
Letter from Shimizu Aoi-san
=========================

Site Staff: Following the "EXE Corner" the "Zero Corner" will start.  To answer the questions this time, the Zero 4 creation team.

General Creation Team: Thank you for your passionate support of the Shitennou.

Truth is at first we had planned for Zero to have his final showdown with the Shitennou.  But for us, the creation staff, the Shitennou were very unforgettable strong characters, so some of us said "It would be poor for them to be defeated" and so it came out like that in Rockman Zero 3.

And then in Zero 4's continuation, this time with Vile's Operation Ragnarok there is disasters all over the world.  And so, the Shitennou, however much rivals to Zero, there's no way Zero can handle it himself.

It's because they were "Warriors born to protect humans".  Perhaps they were also in other places doing the same and probably fighting to protect humans.

To be frank, it's a regret we have after Rockman Zero 4 that we didn't put the Shitennou in, but now we know their popularity based on all the fans' support.  We can't promise, but if there is a chance we'll make sure the Shitennou will take part in some way sometime for the users.

Site Staff: They had that kind of talk during Zero 3... Thank you for the precious talk.  We'll enjoy when the day the acticity involving the Shitennou comes.[/spoiler]

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The issue I have here, is that you're viewing Z4-ZX as equal to Z1-2 in the scale of retroactive continuity. The Guardians' death is relatively minor compared to what how things changed upon Z2's release.
I never said they were equal in scale, only that they are equally valid.  There's a difference.  Surely Elf Wars has a larger impact, but it doesn't make the Guardians' death any less retroactive.

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Leviathan's uneven foot
It's called a "step", which involves placing one's feet at uneven elevations, either for the sake of moving to different elevations where no grade is available, or simply because adequate foot space does not exist in a single elevation.

They're standing in ruins.

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I just don't see how it can cause the whole ankle and foot to vanish as with Phantom.
Save for the lack of gold trim, which is easily glazed over given how small/dark a space Phantom's feet occupy, nothing in the image says that Phantom's feet are vanishing.  The effects could easily be supplementary.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 07, 2010, 03:59:21 PM
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Is that not only natural when you've just recovered from having the crap kicked out of you?

Harpuia is clearly pondering about what lies beyond the door and is willing to sacrifice his life. That is exactly what happened in Inti's current elaboration of the event. As such, there was indeed some hint toward the possibility. Yes, it does not establish what will happen, but a potential loss of their life was in the back of the developer's mind. Which is very much why in retrospect that moment was chosen.

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The problem is, there was no reason to ask that question in the first place.

Their absence was the reason to ask that question. And indeed, that question WAS asked by fans, even having people come up with exactly that explosion to explain their idea. You're turning a blind eye to exactly everything that happened on forums such as this one, following the release of Z4.

The only reason we ever shot down that idea was a lack of effects in Vile's Incident, and a few vague ideas in the back of the developers minds. The unwritten ideas of developers should never constitute continuity, otherwise, Dark Elf's origins would have been retconned twice before the game was even released!

As for the effects..

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The effects could easily be supplementary.

Of course, we have absolutely nothing to confirm that the effects absolutely have to be there on Leviathan. As a matter of fact, the inconsistency in the portrayal of Cyber Elves in this series was already brought forth twice. With what we know of these effects, their presence confirms a program life-form, but their absence does not confirm that something is a not a program life form. Indeed, Passy's effects were only shown on the moment she began using her power, and SvC does not have it at all. Whatever rationale we apply, the basic facts that their absence does not deny presence, can not be denied.

All Inti acknowledged in MMZOCW was the intent with which the image was made, and that they covered up that intend by acknowledging exactly the vagueness of aspects of that picture. We as fans should acknowledge exactly where that vagueness lies, and not cling so vehemently to our general distaste of the Guardians being killed in such a mundane manner.

If there is anything I blame Inti for, in regards to the Guardians' deaths, it's not that we were lead to think the opposite by their fickle developer's intend, it's more so that they absolutely failed to address the matter in subsequent releases. Instead of retcon, I call plothole. The explanation or enactment of the scene in question should have been somewhere in ZX, Drama Tracks, or otherwise, with preferred tie in to exactly that image in Vile's Incident. That it's only implicated at in an interview, is a clear issue of their presentation rather than them changing what's already been established.

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"there is no way Zero can handle it [Operation Ragnarok] himself."

Except, Zero did, by omission of the Guardians and later by MMZOCW's accord. Unless, you take into account the possibility of them assisting without the need of their physical bodies, as X and Phantom have both done in the past.

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We can't promise, but if there is a chance we'll make sure the Shitennou will take part in some way sometime for the users.
Quote
We'll enjoy when the day the acticity involving the Shitennou comes.

Rockman ZX. Which just comes to show that post-mortum activity of characters in this series has started becoming somewhat of a norm.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Hypershell on January 09, 2010, 05:30:08 AM
Their absence was the reason to ask that question. And indeed, that question WAS asked by fans, even having people come up with exactly that explosion to explain their idea. You're turning a blind eye to exactly everything that happened on forums such as this one, following the release of Z4.
The question of whether or not they perished over the course of the series and whether or not they died in the ending of Z3 are not the same thing.  More on that later.

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The only reason we ever shot down that idea was a lack of effects in Vile's Incident, and a few vague ideas in the back of the developers minds.
And Zero survived.  Which happened in-game.  His ride home was immobilized during the explosion.

The only way the Guardians' deaths make any sense is by rationalizing undepicted and unhinted off-screen events after the point.  By that logic anything can happen without "changing the series."  It's no different from having to re-interpret Z1's dialogue.  Between Z3 and Z4, there is no reason to believe the Guardians to be dead.  For them to be so is extraordinarily bad and unprofessional storytelling, even by MegaMan standards.  Their only possible cause of death during Z3 yields 1 confirmed survivor (2 if you count Mother Elf), 3 unaccounted, 0 confirmed dead.  You do the math.  The sequel game makes no mention of their fate, the situation of their previous home leaves them outcasts, and forces usually associated with the player have been divided up due to the scale of current events.  There is no reason in that scenario to question the Guardians' fate as of Z3's ending, not when no hint was ever given except for Zero's own survival, which works against it.  As do other issues that Inti is content to glaze over.

Speculation as to the Guardians' deaths in the Zero-series, for Z3, would have been senseless.  But if in a pre-MMZOCW world you're wondering whether they sruvived the entire Zero series, it would have been far more credible if they had been struck by Ragnarok when Craft fired.  Are you sure you're not confusing theories, Zan?

Either way, if they had died in one of Ragnarok's blasts, that I'd have bought under your "plothole rather than retcon" statement.  But not Omega.  Omega was done, overwith, and moved on, with what little information we had pointing towards survival.  It was very little, yes.  Z3 alone could not be taken as confirmation.  But if the sequel moves on offering no further information, that indicates that no further information is needed, lending credit to the existing hints.  If Zero survived, and the story-tellers see fit to offer no further comments, then the indication is that the Guardians survived.  There has to be some counter-point as a reason to believe otherwise in order for the event to be considered questionable.  That they do not appear in Z4 is insufficient, given both the scale of Operation Ragnarok and their general distaste for the idea of aiding Zero, it is very easily excusable.

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Whatever rationale we apply, the basic facts that their absence does not deny presence, can not be denied.
If Phantom were not present, that would make sense.  But the fact that the artist differentiated between them says that they're there in different states.  You can say there's no rationale, but when you're rationale is coming from the exact same image you're questioning, it is very hard to ignore.  The "time of death" speculation is the only means to rationalize it, and that comes about simply due to hindsight.

Speaking of which, arguing over the image in hindsight is completely pointless.  Because Nakayama himself refused to commit to when that image is supposed to take place in the "revised" sequence of events, rationalizing the difference of effects is by no means necessary.  Technically speaking, we don't even know that they're looking at Ragnarok.  The matter of context, that being it appears in Vile's Incident, is the only thing gearing it towards that event.  But once Aizu and co. have given the "fanservice; we just threw it in there" dismissal, even that can't be taken for granted.  They could be looking at a comet on their way to fight Omega, for all we know.

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We as fans should acknowledge exactly where that vagueness lies, and not cling so vehemently to our general distaste of the Guardians being killed in such a mundane manner.
Obviously.  But how is that any different than acknowledging general vagueness in Z1?

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Except, Zero did, by omission of the Guardians and later by MMZOCW's accord.
False.  They said Operation Ragnarok, not Ragnarok the space station.  Big difference.

The Resistance was split and Zero had assistance from other units, Joan supplying them with analysis, Colbor and crew evacuating Neo Arcadians, and who knows who sending Criore (or whatever the hell you name your super-elf).  Zero may be taking out the big fish by himself, but in terms of Operation Ragnarok as a whole, no, he absolutely did not combat it alone.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on January 09, 2010, 02:17:20 PM
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Are you sure you're not confusing theories, Zan?

No, there have been a gazillion newbies who came in after Z4 and went exclaiming: I think the Guardians died in Omega's explosion! I honestly can't believe you don't remember this. We ironically shot down that theory time and time again.

The theory of them being hit by Ragnarok was never ever proposed. Probably due to their location in Vile's Incident.

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that indicates that no further information is needed

Like no further information was needed to understand Zero becoming Omega? As we know it, the Rockman series has a bad reputation with providing the relevant information within the game that it is needed, often obtaining said info by interview and sourcebooks.

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except for Zero's own survival, which works against it.

Zero's own survival demanded the Mother Elf's interference it would seem, bringing him back to the resistance base, unconscious. Why is Zero unconscious? The game gives us no reason for Zero to be, yet he is. Now considering that that the Mother Elf is clearly smitten with Zero and thus occupied with solely him, and that X lacks the power to pull off the same trick, we leave the ultimate faith of the three Guardians quite mysterious. Whatever knocked Zero unconscious might have affected them somehow as well. Let us not forget that all three of them were on the verge of death to begin with.

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Technically speaking, we don't even know that they're looking at Ragnarok.  The matter of context, that being it appears in Vile's Incident, is the only thing gearing it towards that event.  But once Aizu and co. have given the "fanservice; we just threw it in there" dismissal, even that can't be taken for granted.  They could be looking at a comet on their way to fight Omega, for all we know.

And that's pretty much what I'm trying to say here, we don't quite know what it is we're looking at there. From them being alive or dead, Ragnarok or a comet, or even that we're in the Substance World to begin with. We can only make educated guesses, since we have no context of that scene. Within Vile's Incident too, that image is a great oddity, there's no definite way a photograph of that scene could have been taken, Montagne could never have included it in his report, yet we see it clearly as part of it. It's clearly some image solely the fans can see, instead of an actual part of Vile's Incident's narrative.

About the only thing we can tell is that the scene could be most likely after Will4, as all the Four Guardians are united with each other and Master X. X and Phantom are the only ones confirmed as dead, somehow or other those previously unseen fancy coats came to be, and there's some falling star in the sky.

I don't know how anybody can place these event between Will4 and Retrospect1. But like the Ragnarok interpretation, it's all a matter of Inti rationalizing it adequately. You know, I could care less about the Guardians' actual moment of death, as long as there is some epic scene to be written there. It's just very sad that Inti hasn't seen it fit to write and present this scene.

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False.  They said Operation Ragnarok, not Ragnarok the space station.  Big difference.

Point stands, he did not get help from the four Guardians, unless this help is as Cyber Elves. Either Inti's Four Guardian help idea is no longer valid, or they can indeed do things when they're dead. The latter would actually nicely pave the way to ZX.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: DA Zero Nightmare!!!! on February 16, 2010, 04:40:44 AM
hey wasn't the forbidden ark hidden in the background of area I in the first ZX, evertime I play that area i swear that was the ship that housed omega during his exile
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on October 05, 2012, 12:38:53 AM
Revival!

I dont think that's the Forbidden Ark... I think it might just be a fallen electric tower like the kind in area E. Or could it be?

On that note, the part in ZX, in Area I, where you fight the Mechaniloid Steephinx, (the miniboss) that round thing in the background, kind of resembles the giant orb behind X in Z2 that held Dark Elf, doesnt it...?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Katsuragi on November 07, 2012, 12:09:19 PM
Yes, at least me in fact do believe that the construction in the back is in fact the Tree of Life where X was sealing the Mother Elf. I even discussed that before with some friends in another forum, here some screens to let it more clear for us to discuss.
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/474/treeoflifezx.jpg)
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Ladd Spencer on November 07, 2012, 07:07:11 PM
These are the best kinds of Mega Man conversations.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 07, 2012, 07:33:15 PM
They sure are.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 20, 2012, 02:31:51 PM
Refresh my memory a moment: did the Four Guardians not know that their fearless leader X happened to have two bodies? One sealing the Dark Elf and the other lording it over Reploids in Neo Arcadia?

Actually, did they even know about the Dark Elf in the first place?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 20, 2012, 04:16:50 PM
They knew. But Copy-X is considered a revival of the original.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Ladd Spencer on November 20, 2012, 07:42:11 PM
Why didn't Ciel just put X' soul into a new body?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 20, 2012, 07:50:55 PM
Interesting. So they were just genuinely loyal to this "new" X and not what they thought was the real X.

By the way, I know it's already been deliberated in this thread, but I'm not sure if this theory has been proposed: what if X used the last bit of his strength to save the Three Guardians at the end of Z3? Considering X did just that in Z1 (or was it implied?), it's a plausible substitute for the lack of illumination on their fates. Other than them just dying.

It's clear that X didn't use his last reserves of energy to fight with Zero in an epic showdown or anything.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRUBV7ccsw[/youtube]

Why didn't Ciel just put X' soul into a new body?

I think it's because X didn't want to be placed into a body. Tired of fighting, wanted to hang back.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Ladd Spencer on November 20, 2012, 08:14:38 PM
How selfish of X.

So how does X create Elysium? Or doesn't he?
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 20, 2012, 10:27:53 PM
I'd say the same about Zero, actually. But then I never bought the excuse that he needed to seal himself away to keep the world safe from his influence. After the first time he was sealed, he was brought back in a Copy body to take on Omega with X, so he doesn't have the virus to spread if he sneezes on the wireless internetz or something.

Frankly, they both needed to rest and just pass on the responsibility to new hunters, like Axl. If they were really serious about not wanting to fight, they would groom replacements from a willing and able troop of Maverick Hunters. They are in command of their own units. Sooner or later they have to realize that the world is bigger than them and they can't keep it clean by themselves.

I'm not sure who created Elysium, assuming it just started with one person. I guess that would be the original X.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Ladd Spencer on November 21, 2012, 12:05:57 AM
I dunno man, they are leaps and bounds more advanced than the rest of the world. But I guess at some point they become dwarfed by modern technology.

Yea all this Zero and ZX stuff makes Legends timeline relevance harder to understand. I'm sure Zan knows.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 21, 2012, 12:18:36 AM
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Interesting. So they were just genuinely loyal to this "new" X and not what they thought was the real X.
it's funny how it works, because they are loyal to Original X as well as Copy X.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 21, 2012, 01:41:53 PM
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After the first time he was sealed, he was brought back in a Copy body to take on Omega with X, so he doesn't have the virus to spread if he sneezes on the wireless internetz or something.

The second sealing is not about the virus.



Zero: As long as I'm around...the bloodstained history will repeat itself.
X: Something like that...what are you talking about, Zero!
Zero: I've been constantly thinking...  For whom...for what...must we Repliroids kill one another...  Even at such a time...you kept believing in humans...  I trust you as my friend...  So...the words of the humans whom you believe in...I want to believe in.



We had just witnessed Zero's power being used for mass destruction. Even though Omega and the Dark Elf were defeated, it is natural the human goverment now looks at Zero himself as a potential threat. He agrees; tired of fighting, finding no place for a war machine such as himself in the new world.

By comparison, Zero is rather optimistic about the first sealing. Trying to remove the virus from his systems, he had hoped that would bring an end to the conflict. He was wrong.

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How selfish of X.

So how does X create Elysium? Or doesn't he?
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Yea all this Zero and ZX stuff makes Legends timeline relevance harder to understand. I'm sure Zan knows.

It's not hard to understand. Zero and ZX serve to bridge the gap between X and DASH:



Zero 4 really fleshed out the human characters.

AIZU: This is something that Yabe (responsible for the original scenario of the Zero series) had been wanting to do. We wanted to take the humans that had been thus far living in relative peace and safety within the walls of Neo Arcadia and introduce them to Weil's dictatorship to sort of force them out into the wilds with the Reploids, thereby lowering themselves to refugee status and in a way bringing them down to what they considered the Reploids' level. It was out hope that ending the game in such a sad state of affairs would leave the stage open for the next game to take place in a world where humans and Reploids lived in harmony.

"The next game?"
AIZU: Well, this is just our own personal opinion, but the way we see it, the end of the Mega Man series has already been written in the form of [the] "Mega Man Legends" [series]. We feel that no matter how you continue the Mega Man series, you'll always end up at Legends. Therefore, we feel that everything that we have created has, in a way, laid the ground work for that world to come into existence. We have to make sure that things like the environment and human-Reploid relations that we establish will be able to make a comfortable transition to that future world.




Since Neo Arcadian times, we see the same "ruins" from Rockman DASH appear: remnants of an era of war. The four great forests surrounding Neo Arcadia - Dysis (West), Anatre (East), Notus (North), ???? (South) - contain ruins deliberately designed in the style of Rockman DASH. By the end of Z4, and the jump to ZX, all of Neo Arcadia became ruin.

As for Elysium. Understand first and foremost that its original name is ヘブン "Heaven". This is indeed the same term used by X in X5. But that is in an alternate ending; in the actual chain of events that name had not come to his mind. X's Elysium became Neo Arcadia.

In ZX, we are introduced to another "Heaven".



Serpent: Project Haven is now in its final stage! Gaze upon the beginning of a brand new age!
Serpent: By joining us, the weak are freed from their suffering! The chosen one, Mega Man, will save the people! That is the glory of Project Haven!



Project Haven
プロジェクト・ヘブン
"Project Heaven"

The creation of a new world, where humanity is protected by Rockmen.



Serpent: A Maverick!? Me!? How dare you call me a Maverick! You're the one stopping progress. You're the one denying change. Maybe you're the Maverick! People and society are destined for change! They must shed their hate-filled hearts and suffering bodies. We must move forward! We must have change!
Serpent: On a planet... Life is born... Humans and machines... Waves of war and peace roll on. And in every age, a fool like you tries to fight it. You don't want to see anyone get hurt. You want to protect the ones you care about. You don't want to lose anything. By acting on that desire, you continue to make choices that avoid the pain. The Mega Man destined to save the world? Unchanging life... A world devoid of the light of hope. What's the point!?
Serpent: The destiny of destruction... Still awaits... So long as you have hearts, hate will lurk in the shadows... You who possess the wellspring of emotion known as the heart... You are the true Mavericks!





A cold and sterile, 'perfect' world. Does that not sound familiar? Albert and Thomas both share this notion; this world must be reset.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 21, 2012, 03:28:16 PM
The second sealing is not about the virus.



Zero: As long as I'm around...the bloodstained history will repeat itself.
X: Something like that...what are you talking about, Zero!
Zero: I've been constantly thinking...  For whom...for what...must we Repliroids kill one another...  Even at such a time...you kept believing in humans...  I trust you as my friend...  So...the words of the humans whom you believe in...I want to believe in.



We had just witnessed Zero's power being used for mass destruction. Even though Omega and the Dark Elf were defeated, it is natural the human goverment now looks at Zero himself as a potential threat. He agrees; tired of fighting, finding no place for a war machine such as himself in the new world.

By comparison, Zero is rather optimistic about the first sealing. Trying to remove the virus from his systems, he had hoped that would bring an end to the conflict. He was wrong.


Frankly, I share in X's incredulity on the matter.

From what I understand of the drama tapes, Omega was built around Zero's original body. This was Weil's doing; I don't remember why he wanted to do this. X opposed Weil's plan to control all Reploids using Omega, so he fights and defeats him with Zero, and the human government exiles Weil and Omega to an eternity in an orbiting prison. Why they thought that was a good idea, I also don't know; something about the pro-human government at the time not wanting to use the death penalty on Weil because he was human, I think, but choosing not to destroy Omega or castrate his mind powers is also inexplicable.

While it might be natural for the gov't to see Zero as a risk, it's also irrational. I also don't see why Zero would think that by sticking around, the "bloodstained history will repeat itself." The virus that he was used for was no longer a strike against him, although it still existed in his old body for people like Weil to take advantage of. That there will always be people like Weil doesn't make the existence of someone like "copy" Zero a liability.

X is just as much a war machine as Zero is, and yet he's not considered a threat. Even Sigma, the former commander of the Maverick Hunters, wasn't considered a threat until it was too late. I don't put much stock into a gov't that decides to seal a capable Maverick Hunter and an accomplished hero while at the same time giving two war criminals a live, eternal imprisonment on an orbital prison colony. The only real justification I see for the second sealing (other than plotholes) is that Zero wanted it. He didn't want to live anymore, but he didn't want to die either. Either way, it's clear he was scared of being used again by someone enamored with the "power of Zero", but he held out some hope that there would be a future that he would no longer threaten.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 21, 2012, 05:44:58 PM
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and the human government exiles Weil and Omega to an eternity in an orbiting prison. Why they thought that was a good idea, I also don't know;

Dr. Vile wasn't sent to space like Omega. Omega was punished through official channels, not so for Vile. They threw him out of Neo Arcadia to rot. He had to survive in a wasteland devoid of food and water. By the curse of his rejuvenating armor they made him feel the pain of dying continuously. It's punishment and torture for someone who by his old age couldn't be imprisoned for more than his lifespan allowed. Of course, it's also expected this would leave him a broken man unable to stand up against Neo Arcadia ever again.

Quote
X is just as much a war machine as Zero is, and yet he's not considered a threat. Even Sigma, the former commander of the Maverick Hunters, wasn't considered a threat until it was too late. I don't put much stock into a gov't that decides to seal a capable Maverick Hunter and an accomplished hero while at the same time giving two war criminals a live, eternal imprisonment on an orbital prison colony. The only real justification I see for the second sealing (other than plotholes) is that Zero wanted it. He didn't want to live anymore, but he didn't want to die either. Either way, it's clear he was scared of being used again by someone enamored with the "power of Zero", but he held out some hope that there would be a future that he would no longer threaten.

At the time, X himself has become a political force. His organization provided security for all that suffered in the war. All the same, the current government is brought into heavy discredit by Vile's treason (he tricked them into allowing his creation of Omega). Because of this, X's Neo Arcadia replaced the old.

This means the decision to spare Omega is X's. Good ole compassionate X. Dr. Vile, however, was left at hands not so merciful. Zero likewise hears the voices of people wanting him gone, X contests this, but Zero himself makes the final choice for his own reasons.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 21, 2012, 07:34:43 PM
One should also not underestimate X's image compared to Zero's. X and Zero are both Combat Reploids of the highest and deadliest caliber, but they have both very different images, particularly in the public eye.

Zero is looked at as a monster, a demon with unparalleled combat skill who kills and slaughters his enemies without hesitation or compassion. He projects a cold, hard, unfeeling personality, and definitely strikes a VERY imposing silhouette, with his crimson colored armor, broad shoulders, long blonde mane, and spiked helmet.

He is also of shady origins, much like X, being a highly advanced relic of a bygone century, however with no known creator, and a bloodstained discovery, in which he was a rampaging Maverick. Of course, that last part is not entirely common knowledge, but by the time of the Elf Wars, where all on Zero was laid bare with the discovery of his origins, I'm sure it wouldn't leave a good taste in people's mouths, much less in Zero's own.

X on the other hand, has pretty much the opposite effect. He acts and emotes on the same level as a a Human, is known to be very friendly, very compassionate and caring for others, and is a serene blue color, with a much sleeker, rounded design. He is known to have been created by the Father of Robotics, Dr. Light, and is known for disliking violence and having a tendency to hesitate in combat, or try to negotiate whenever possible.

His combat style also, leads to a difference in view. whereas Zero is a close ranged melee fighter who is frightening with a sword and is right in the middle of the blood soaked front lines, X is a long distanced shooter, who is distanced from the death.

Then there is the fact that Zero has been used various times as the object of catastrophe. He was the motivation behind the Eurasia colony drop that nearly decimated the Earth, which resulted in a virus with an eerily similar energy reading as him, (which also took his form) and the cause and motivations behind the Nightmare Virus and Gate's insanity. His body was used to create the Devil Reploid, Omega, and the Dark Elf, both of which arose in response to a way to deal with Mavericks caused by the Sigma Virus, which was discovered to have come from Zero all along, and spread by him, also making him the reason for Sigma's going Maverick and becoming the worst terrorist madman the world ever saw.

It's pretty obvious why people would look at him kinda funny, when pretty much because of him, 60% of Humanity and 90% of Reploids were wiped out by an apocalyptic war that also ravaged the planet and left most of it a wasteland.

X meanwhile, through all this, became a politician and was beloved by all for his personality and heroic exploits, and therefore once the war was over, everyone united under him and became the Leader of what was left of the world.

I mean, sure, he would have preferred Zero stay along with him, but he doesn't have NEARLY the same issues Zero had after all was said and done.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 22, 2012, 03:04:50 AM
Dr. Vile wasn't sent to space like Omega. Omega was punished through official channels, not so for Vile. They threw him out of Neo Arcadia to rot. He had to survive in a wasteland devoid of food and water. By the curse of his rejuvenating armor they made him feel the pain of dying continuously. It's punishment and torture for someone who by his old age couldn't be imprisoned for more than his lifespan allowed. Of course, it's also expected this would leave him a broken man unable to stand up against Neo Arcadia ever again.

Clearly, the judicial branch neither understood the persistence of the human spirit nor seen Highlander.

They also didn't seem to have any qualms about cruel and unusual(ly powerful) punishment, when it came to Dr. Bile. I'd love to hear the reason why he was too bad for the death penalty or life imprisonment. "No, no, he has to live in an eternal purgatory because we want to play Abrahamic God in this case." Nice job, douchebags. Your immensely irrational, vengeful punishment bred the worst madman the world has ever seen since Dr. Wily.

At the time, X himself has become a political force. His organization provided security for all that suffered in the war. All the same, the current government is brought into heavy discredit by Vile's treason (he tricked them into allowing his creation of Omega). Because of this, X's Neo Arcadia replaced the old.

This means the decision to spare Omega is X's. Good ole compassionate X. Dr. Vile, however, was left at hands not so merciful. Zero likewise hears the voices of people wanting him gone, X contests this, but Zero himself makes the final choice for his own reasons.

Ah, so not only was the old human government replaced, but X was the selected regent of the new one? Interesting. In that case, I can understand X's decision to spare Omega: he is a reflection of Zero. If Zero, the source of the Maverick Virus, could be rehabilitated back into society and be a worthwhile member of it, than why not Omega?

But then this throws into sharp contrast all of the Mavericks X himself executed in the name of keeping the peace. You might argue that his hand was forced most of the time, but it still means that him sparing Mavericks is a rare exception to the rule of retiring them. I wonder why Omega--arguably as dangerous a Maverick as either Sigma or Zero--fell into that category. What could X have seen in him that warranted imprisonment instead of destruction? You don't shelve something you don't intend to revisit or save, you dispose of it. What was the plan, and why/how was he forgotten until Weil got to him? And how did Weil reintegrate himself into society well enough to acquire the resources to free Omega and later take control of Neo Arcadia? Wouldn't he have been branded an undesirable and thrown back out, or did he use a clever disguise?

Massive amounts of material

That's a really good explanation. The only thing I'd argue is that the difference in combat style is negligent with regards to distance. It's a minor detail; they both take on Mavericks and other threats at the same distance. X is just used as an high-altitude bomber when the occasion calls for it.

Also, let's not leave out other details: several of his armors clear the screen in a devastating fashion, and one of his more menacing acquired weapons is a giant bulldozing boulder.

I guess X can be called a politician in the interim between Mega Man X and Mega Man Zero. It's a shame his impact as a social leader was relegated to the background between the series. I idealize him as someone who doesn't just follow orders or let himself get trapped in dilemmas. Seeing him in a more effective decision-making role would be pretty gratifying. At least moreso than whatever X7 was.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 22, 2012, 03:57:02 AM
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Clearly, the judicial branch neither understood the persistence of the human spirit nor seen Highlander.
You assume he was actually put through the judicial system and not handed over to an angry mob of survivors who declared him guilty without trial and just went straight to the worst, cruelest possible punishment. And it isnt unlikely to think that the experience would leave him broken. Any normal person would. But Weil was simply not a normal person. His burning hatred and desire for revenge kept his mind intact, although he lost any screws he had left.

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But then this throws into sharp contrast all of the Mavericks X himself executed in the name of keeping the peace. You might argue that his hand was forced most of the time, but it still means that him sparing Mavericks is a rare exception to the rule of retiring them. I wonder why Omega--arguably as dangerous a Maverick as either Sigma or Zero--fell into that category.

Most mavericks fight to the death, and die, or even if not maverick, usually fight to the death for their honor or similar reasons. Only Dynamo is smart enough to retreat.

Omega is powerful enough, (and also has rejuvenating qualities to his exterior shell) that even after a final strike from X and Zero, he is not dead, merely disabled. Do keep in mind that they didnt even damage the body within the shell, just disable the shell. So they put him in a rocket and launched him into orbit for his sentence. He regenerated in that timespan.

Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 22, 2012, 06:09:18 PM
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They also didn't seem to have any qualms about cruel and unusual(ly powerful) punishment, when it came to Dr. Bile. I'd love to hear the reason why he was too bad for the death penalty or life imprisonment. "No, no, he has to live in an eternal purgatory because we want to play Abrahamic God in this case." Nice job, douchebags. Your immensely irrational, vengeful punishment bred the worst madman the world has ever seen since Dr. Wily.

What Flame said; the angry mob got to him.

I'd also reckon that Vile's crime deserved a greater punishment than death. As such, the death penalty is out of the question, and Vile's obvious mortality as an old man drastically cuts down the duration of life imprisonment. According to the people of that time, he needed to rot in hell for all eternity.

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What was the plan, and why/how was he forgotten until Weil got to him? And how did Weil reintegrate himself into society well enough to acquire the resources to free Omega and later take control of Neo Arcadia? Wouldn't he have been branded an undesirable and thrown back out, or did he use a clever disguise?

Vile would be considered dead in current time. Furthermore, he gained access to Omega by hacking the forbidden arc's orbital program. His reintegration into society was shown in Z3, where he uses the revived Copy-X to gain leverage.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 22, 2012, 06:55:42 PM
You assume he was actually put through the judicial system and not handed over to an angry mob of survivors who declared him guilty without trial and just went straight to the worst, cruelest possible punishment. And it isnt unlikely to think that the experience would leave him broken. Any normal person would. But Weil was simply not a normal person. His burning hatred and desire for revenge kept his mind intact, although he lost any screws he had left.

Give a person an eternity to endure hardship, and they'll find a way. Guaranteed. Especially someone of Weil's ambition. I think death would've sent the message well enough. And if they really wanted to play God and turn Weil into a cursed Boogieman who wanders the wastelands, why didn't they pick a place that was truly isolated and desolate? Like the moon? Or Antarctica? Ah well, I guess I shouldn't expect the angry mob to think this sort of thing through. Or create an armor that makes someone live forever.

By the way, where was X's compassion then?

Most mavericks fight to the death, and die, or even if not maverick, usually fight to the death for their honor or similar reasons. Only Dynamo is smart enough to retreat.

I don't think it would've been beyond X's ability to subdue Mavericks without killing them. Incorporating some kind of stun weapon into X's arsenal could add some depth into both the story and the boss fights.

Omega is powerful enough, (and also has rejuvenating qualities to his exterior shell) that even after a final strike from X and Zero, he is not dead, merely disabled. Do keep in mind that they didnt even damage the body within the shell, just disable the shell. So they put him in a rocket and launched him into orbit for his sentence. He regenerated in that timespan.

Probably would've been a good idea to strip the shell before they sent him off into space. Also transferring Omega's consciousness out of Zero's original body into a new one and destroying Zero's old shell. This would've also been a great opportunity to offer Weil an alternative to an eternity of suffering in exchange for help on destroying Omega's shell. Remember that even with the Dark Elf in Z3, "copy" Zero was still able to destroy it. And the original Zero beneath it. If he could do that by himself, then both him and X should've been able to annihilate Omega's shell.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 23, 2012, 03:30:56 AM
Quote
Give a person an eternity to endure hardship, and they'll find a way. Guaranteed..
Not quite. This is far more than just hardship. I think you are not fully appreciating what his punishment entailed. he was constantly dying. Constantly in death, as he put it, not quite dead, not quite alive. and he was tossed into a barren wasteland. to suffer for all eternity.

 
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Especially someone of Weil's ambition.
Ill admit they definitely underestimated his will.

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I think death would've sent the message well enough.
You can't send someone a message if they are dead. Death is a quick fast punishment. They wanted him to suffer, and suffer horribly and cruelly. A life sentence would not have cut it either, since he was already old, and would not last nearly long enough, nor would it be horrible enough. Again, they wanted him to suffer, and suffer horribly.

 
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And if they really wanted to play God and turn Weil into a cursed Boogieman who wanders the wastelands, why didn't they pick a place that was truly isolated and desolate? Like the moon? Or Antarctica?
I don't think you really understand just how the Earth was left after the Elf Wars. it was left barren and inhospitable. There's a reason Neo Arcadia is the last bastion of Humanity. There is literally nowhere else in the world to live that can support any kind of life.  in Z4, Area Zero was the hot button issue it was, because it was the only place outside of neo Arcadia that had the means to support life due to Eurasia's environmental system being left running after the crash for over a century undisturbed.

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By the way, where was X's compassion then?
X didn't get to Weil. We dont really know the circumstances behind all of it. But since X and Zero were fighting Omega head on, they were able to take him in and legally try him. Weil however, was instead turned upon by the Reploids Zero turned against him with Dark Elf. And the survivors who got to him wherever he was, didnt hand him over, and there was nothing to be done by whatever was left of the government.

Quote
Probably would've been a good idea to strip the shell before they sent him off into space. Also transferring Omega's consciousness out of Zero's original body into a new one and destroying Zero's old shell. This would've also been a great opportunity to offer Weil an alternative to an eternity of suffering in exchange for help on destroying Omega's shell. Remember that even with the Dark Elf in Z3, "copy" Zero was still able to destroy it. And the original Zero beneath it. If he could do that by himself, then both him and X should've been able to annihilate Omega's shell.
Do note most of the world was left in ruin. I doubt they had that kind of technology left by that point to do that. And even if he was a bastard monster, he was still a Reploid. X is compassionate to a fault. and keep in mind Zero's body was accuired by Weil for Omega legally. he asked the Govt for it, they gave it to him. And Zero gave his body to them to study. So Omega has a legal right to exist as he is. Again, what it all boils down to is the underestimation of Weil's will. Without Weil, omega would never have crashed back on Earth, and would have remained in orbital prison.

Everything boils back down to Weil in the end.
Quote
What was the plan, and why/how was he forgotten until Weil got to him? And how did Weil reintegrate himself into society well enough to acquire the resources to free Omega and later take control of Neo Arcadia? Wouldn't he have been branded an undesirable and thrown back out, or did he use a clever disguise?
Zan aleady got to this, but ill add to it.
Weil was punished illegally. He was not given a trial, and was punished by the equivalent of a lynch mob. So from a legal standpoint, despite being a horrible person who deserved every bit of what he got, he has the right to come back to Neo Arcadia whenever he wants. he also manipulated Copy X's naivete. he pretty much made Copy X "owe him one", by resurrecting him. And played himself the nice guy who has payed his debt to society. And Copy X believed him. He trusted Weil enough to give him control over his armies.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 23, 2012, 05:01:19 PM
Not quite. This is far more than just hardship. I think you are not fully appreciating what his punishment entailed. he was constantly dying. Constantly in death, as he put it, not quite dead, not quite alive. and he was tossed into a barren wasteland. to suffer for all eternity.

My point is the mind is resilient, though, given enough time. Yes, it is an extreme kind of hell that is made to break someone, but I think it's different from the kind of powerlessness someone feels when they're thrown into solitary confinement. Weil suffers, but with his horrid immortality and his exile to a vast wasteland, he is now no longer bound by time or space. He can do more than someone locked in a cell for any amount of time, including breaking into one if he wants.

I get that the Reploids wanted him to suffer, but giving him--or anyone--immortality makes him a threat further down the line. It's an extraordinarily nonsensical effort to go to for the sake of retribution. Death is terrifying and painful enough if you do it cruelly enough, and ...

You can't send someone a message if they are dead.

... the point isn't rehabilitation. The message it would send is to anyone who would try something like that again. I'll grant that an eternity as a zombie is a fate worse than death, but at least then there's a chance you can change your situation or get revenge, given enough time. You can't revive or avenge yourself when you're dead.

I don't think you really understand just how the Earth was left after the Elf Wars. it was left barren and inhospitable.

I didn't say hospitable. I said isolated, as in can't ever associate with society again.

X didn't get to Weil. We dont really know the circumstances behind all of it. But since X and Zero were fighting Omega head on, they were able to take him in and legally try him. Weil however, was instead turned upon by the Reploids Zero turned against him with Dark Elf. And the survivors who got to him wherever he was, didnt hand him over, and there was nothing to be done by whatever was left of the government.

So he wasn't accounted for? Or perhaps he was pronounced dead?

Do note most of the world was left in ruin. I doubt they had that kind of technology left by that point to do that.

Considering a custom-built immortality suit was feasible, I doubt that. But I was thinking of a more brute-force approach to removing the shell.

And even if he was a bastard monster, he was still a Reploid. X is compassionate to a fault. and keep in mind Zero's body was accuired by Weil for Omega legally. he asked the Govt for it, they gave it to him. And Zero gave his body to them to study. So Omega has a legal right to exist as he is. Again, what it all boils down to is the underestimation of Weil's will. Without Weil, omega would never have crashed back on Earth, and would have remained in orbital prison.

Everything boils back down to Weil in the end.

No, I don't think Omega had any right to retain the power to remove every Reploid's rights. He's too dangerous as-is. If retaining his shell and remaining in Zero's body enabled him to use that kind of power at will, then an appropriate punishment would be to take that away by any means necessary. You don't allow a convicted shooter or arsonist to keep their toys in jail. He can stick around, but not with the same power he used to basically commit a crime against Reploid-kind. He'd be lucky to stay alive.

If he was allowed to stay as is because of X's compassion, then X isn't compassionate to a fault. He's a moron. Compassion has nothing to do with it.

Zan aleady got to this, but ill add to it. Weil was punished illegally. He was not given a trial, and was punished by the equivalent of a lynch mob. So from a legal standpoint, despite being a horrible person who deserved every bit of what he got, he has the right to come back to Neo Arcadia whenever he wants. he also manipulated Copy X's naivete. he pretty much made Copy X "owe him one", by resurrecting him. And played himself the nice guy who has payed his debt to society. And Copy X believed him. He trusted Weil enough to give him control over his armies.

I'll give you his opportunistic use of Copy X, but as for the part in bold ... everyone was okay with that? I thought he was exiled. I don't doubt he could've snuck in and revived Copy X, but if someone saw him, wouldn't he have been thrown out?

Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 23, 2012, 05:51:30 PM
Quote
... the point isn't rehabilitation. The message it would send is to anyone who would try something like that again. I'll grant that an eternity as a zombie is a fate worse than death, but at least then there's a chance you can change your situation or get revenge, given enough time. You can't revive or avenge yourself when you're dead.

This problem is one backwards of storytelling. For Vile, Omega, Dark Elf, the Baby Elves, they have to justify their presence during the actual ZERO-series one way or the other. Why not have all these forces destroyed in the Elf Wars? Because then we wouldn't have them as the present day antagonists.


Vile's big loophole is the illegal means by which they exiled him. For Omega, I reckon that Zero only managed to destroy the shell because he willingly discarded it by advancing to his next form (combat prowess over regeneration.) Dark Elf naturally got sealed separately from Omega to rob him of most of his power. Allthough, I do wonder if Neo Arcadia might have wanted to use them as actual military or scientific assets at some point.

Quote
I'll give you his opportunistic use of Copy X, but as for the part in bold ... everyone was okay with that? I thought he was exiled. I don't doubt he could've snuck in and revived Copy X, but if someone saw him, wouldn't he have been thrown out?

None knew his identity.

Harpuia:
A Neo Arcadian?! Who is this guy?!


When he learned who Weil was, Harpuia objected. But nobody else but X has a say in the matter.

Copy X:
His banishment did not follow official ch-channels. Just because
what he did resulted i-in a terrible calamity... Do-does not mean
that banishing him was justified. He has returned to Neo Arcadia
in a legal manner. What reason-n is there to drive him out?

Don't worr-rr-rry. He learned many things from his mistakes of
the past. He'll do things right th-this time.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 23, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
Keep in mind that Neo Arcadia hid all traces of Weil's existence, as well as ANYTHING related to him and the war, from history. They sunk the library for that reason, since it contained records of Weil's sin, and Project Elpis. When Harpuia led those Reploids on the expedition to the sunken library, they were later all accused as Mavericks and executed to keep them quiet on whatever they may have seen there that could have been related to that.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Zan on November 23, 2012, 07:09:19 PM
Its the preceding government that erased all the records. Their support of Vile left a great stain on their reputation that they'd rather not reveal to the world.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 23, 2012, 07:17:09 PM
Copy X's Neo Arcadia seemed eager to follow through though, what with the execution of all who went to the library.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 23, 2012, 08:17:55 PM
Well, that helps make more sense of the back story. Thanks guys.

I still think the eternity armor and leaving Omega's shell intact were bad ideas, but the lore is more complicated than I realized.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Flame on November 23, 2012, 11:53:16 PM
Not to mention, like Zan said, you need a reason for them to be in the story as villains.
Title: Re: ZX Cameos
Post by: Treleus on November 26, 2012, 07:40:16 PM
The word you're looking for is "narrative", I think.

I just didn't like the narrative, so I felt like tearing it apart. If it works by ignoring it, or saying, "but then the movie will be over!" then does it really work?

I dunno. I just don't love the handheld games.